shallom to all readers
first af all all, I would like to say glory to God and thank you so much to Bro. Emmanuel for this wonderful blogs. this is absollutely a strong messages to all of us who wanted to know the truth in Christ Jesus. in fact there’s only ONE WAY journey to our salvation. ONLY ONE!! its through Jesus Christ. Hard to accept? To the Muslim brethren…i would like to ask this question. just say if you wanted to go to one place, would you like to follow the one that can give you the assurance or the one that unsure about it? now, let us see a few thought of why i am following Jesus.
#1) because Jesus is in heaven ( that proved He is not a liar nor a sinner ) did prophet Muhammad give this assurance or is he in heaven as been written in quran?
#2) while Jesus teach us to love others and even our enemy…prophet Muhammad ask his followers to terminates those who against islam or even persecuting those who wanted to leave islam. until today…i don’t have to prove it.
#3) as a Christian I’ve NEVER been tought to love Christianity because it is just a mere religion but to love God the Father of Whom my salvation comes. True Christian faith does’nt ask you to love religion but to love God.
#4) Jesus is a perfect picture of how God so much love the world!! without sacrifices that loves does’nt have any meaning. Useless!! If you say that you love your family but not willing to sacrifice everything that you have…dare not you say you love them! that is why God demonstrated it to us His perfect love through Jesus Christ! No question pls.
#5) As a Christian we never been tought to protect Christianity because we believed God is the One Who fought for us because it’s belongs to Him. Why we want to protect something when we are in God’s side. God don’t need guns and sword to protect His religion. Only man use guns because they dont have power likes God did. and offcourse you have to use guns and weapons to protect your religion because God is not in your side. He only want us to love Him and not religion….
almost all religions can makes us as good and kind as its can be…but without the truth all of our effort is useless..our ultimate of being like that is to be in heaven and the only way to be there is through Jesus Christ. Jesus is already being in heaven so why not just follow someone who have already did just that?
for those who were out there reading this…pls…pray before you read the bible or study it. Pray to God that He will show you the truth. i don’t ask you to believe in it, but only by praying God will revealed the truth to us. When you ask something from your earthly father…your hope is that your father will give it to you. I believed that God the Father Whom is greater than your father will give it to you when you really ask and believed. remember…dont limit yourself just to your own understanding but see the proof… see the history and see the truth.
God bless you all.
Amen.
Popularity: 50% [?]
Hi Julian,
Great post you have here! You sure have got some people thinking now. That would include me too actually
Your questions you’ve posted to the Muslims just made me think. I’ve read your questions with some serious thoughts and I do hope you can provide me with some reasonable logical answers that will be clear enough to make me believe in this religion.
Well, here goes…The questions I am highlighting here are your questions and particularly those numbered 1, 2 and 4.
In question #1, you are indicating that because Jesus is in heaven so that proves him not to be a liar nor a sinner…well,Julian, according to some other religions…there are other deities who are in Heaven too. So, does that make them to be true deities?
Your question #2…You’ve mentioned Jesus being loving. Ok fair enough. But then again I am not sure about this. Because if the concept that Jesus is God and that he has been God from the beginning, then that just proofs that it was him all along too who has actually inspired the Bible. If that is so, then there was once he had directly ordered his followers to kill the law breakers by stoning them to death. I believe you may have read the Bible well enough and are able to spot those verses that I am referring to, so I do not need to point that out to you here. So, correct me if I’ve erred here but maybe you can make me understand on his concept of love from that stoning to death incident that can be found in the Bible.
Your question #4 indicates that God sacrificed Jesus (or shall I say, Himself actually in this case since Jesus is God) for us so that we can redeem our free gift of salvation. Of course the Jesus is God case is only possibly unless you are a follower of Christadelphia ( http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_onegod.htm#4 )
Again, I am totally confused now Julian. If we are actually to worship a real God, shouldn’t God Himself be a superior being free from all weaknesses as how you have agreed too in your sentence found in question #5 – “Only man use guns because they don’t have power like God did”? To sacrifice Himself just so to forgive us or convince us is just a sign of weakness. A weakness to prove to the world that He is not capable of guiding us as He is till He actually needs to come down here on Earth as Human just so He can convince us. In any case, it has been told that God can just create anything when He says BE. Just like when He created Adam according to your Bible too. You said it best here when you said that God the Father Whom is greater than our fathers will give it to you when you really ask. So, why does He need to get Himself down to Earth just so to feel how we feel and get kicked around and eventually die just so He can forgive us when He can just simply GIVE us that salvation like what you said in your sentences there. Its just amazing to think about this Julian.
Well there you have it my friend. Your thought provoking questions has given rise to some more questions which I do hope you can share with me on what you think about them.
Thanks bro for your attention and Peace for everyone now.
Dear Bro. Norman…shalom,
First of all, thank you for your attention on my writings. I hope that you will continue to read my stand on this topic. Well…sometimes it’s difficult for us to understand something which is beyond our human thought and knowledge. We are just human after all. To answer your questions on my own understanding will never makes you feel convicted because we are all the same. We can’t understand something which is beyond the human logical. That is why I am going to share with you not from my point of view but from the Bible which is the Words of God. If you feel convicted, it’s God that convicts you.
As to answer topic no #1, you have makes what I’ve written even more interesting. Just like you, me too did not understand what is this all about regarding religions. I’m so naive like a blind person. Not until I seek the truth and finally I found it. The question you might have in your mind though, how I know what I believed is the answer? Conviction! I am convicted by it. The Words of God. It is not by force that I’m believed in Jesus. Never I’ve been offered anything to believe in Him. Just a pure belief. You might want to believe in all religions and even their goddess but the question is not what you want to believe that matter but what convinced you or what makes you believed. That’s it! Jesus said in John 14:6 “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” ( NIV )Now, think for a moment. Have we ever found anyone who dare to say what Jesus had said? If any, do we find peace and feel convicted or maybe we just ignore and think those claims are baseless. Remember that Jesus already left us in this World more than 2000 years ago but His Words is still strong and convincingly gives me a new direction in my life. And I believe your life too. To me Jesus is like a ticket to Heaven. Without a ticket, we are not allowed to enter the stadium to watch soccer, we must get a ticket in order to enter it. No ticket no entry. Simple reason.
As to refer to topic #2, I came to the conclusions that you are refer to some of the books in the Old Testament: Num. 15:35 Jos. 7:25 etc. First, we talk about the stoning things in the Old Testament. Have you ever ask why this punishment happen? It’s all because of our ignorance. We are fools by our own desire. We want something that is not pleasing to God. We want to do something which is against His will. As you read the whole chapters, you will know why God punished them. During that time, stoning to death is a common way of punishing those who found guilty. e( even until today, some of the Middle East Country are still practicing that.) Does God have no Mercy on them. The answer is “yes”. But God will never compromised on their sins. That’s why God spoke to Moses so that the people can received and follow God’s command and repent but they are so ignorance. NUM.15:30-31 “But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people (31) Because he has despised the LORD’s word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.’” Look at the word “defiantly”. In the book of Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”(NIV)Now from this verse, we can get two things. One is death and the other is eternal life. Sins Ignorance=DEATH / Repent Gift Of God=ETERNAL LIFE. This is the time we must received this Gift Bro. This is the time where the favor of the LORD is with us. He want all of us to be saved. That’s is why He show His love and want us to show that love too. Remember that His first idea to create man is to fellowship with Him and not to destroy us. Not until man fall into sins. And that’s is why the power of sin must be broken and Jesus did that on the cross to show His mercy and His grace. And He gives us that victory so that we can be redeemed from our sins and cleans us with His blood. From here we see that Jesus not only died for His followers, but He died and sacrifice Himself on the cross for everyone. A sinner like you and me.
On the topics #4, I hope that you confused no more. That’s is the problem with us as human. We tend to think the way we think. Yes God is so powerful, God created heaven and Earth, God created man and all the Universe. Sounds like He has no problem at all doing anything that He want. When God creates men and women, He create us according to His likeness GEN.1:26. That’s shows that we are most special among all His creations.
Norman, let me ask you this, just say that two person standing in front of God. One is other person and the other one is you. Before you both meet the Lord, the person next to you never believe in Jesus. And worst, he is the one that have killed your wife and all your children that you loved so much. What will you think if both of you received the same treatment from God. Will you think God is fare enough if He treated both of you just as no different? Will you think that God is a good God. Can this justify your thoughts? Yes God can forgive you. But only when you asking for forgiveness.
Norman, God gives us wisdom to think and He gives us the choice to make. And He will not going to force you. It’s our freewill to believed or not. It is pure thing. He is not what we think. He is not like what we want Him to be. He is not like a powerful witchcraft that we watch on television. He is more beyond our human mentality. When God come to this earth it is because of us. To feel what we feel is the perfect understanding for us to understand His Godship. One day we might ask God, help me Lord because of this and because of that. And you know what God will tell you? My child, I understand what you feel and you know that because when you see Me on earth, you see Me suffered the same thing. Worry not, because I will be with you, even when you never notice it. Don’t you feel more secure and more confidence on that. Even more personal?
Bro. it is us that need to understand God’s character towards us and not the other way round. We will never know and believe in something until we saw it. To make that happen, God understand that we cannot go and see Him but He can come and see us and be with us and He did that.
My hope and my prayer is that God Himself will reveal His truth to you. Thank you for spending your time. Jesus loves you. God bless.
Hi Bro Norman. Shalom to you.
It’s has been sometimes and I still waiting for your reply Bro. I hope that everything is fine with you and I also hope that you will reply me soon. Thank you bro. and God Bless.
Dear Julian
You have commented Norman, but you did not directly answer him. Norman argued you clearly whether being in heaven can make someone god, because if that so, all heavenly beings like deities and angels are also gods. Not only Jesus.
You replied him by saying that you are naive, blind person, don’t understand etc, then conviction. You did not address your first proof about divinity of Jesus because he is in heaven!
Jesus according to Bible teach to love and submissive to enemy when they are weak and vulnerable, but kill them when they are capable to do so.
Matthew 10:34 “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword”. You may interpret this verses in other way since there are 38000 ways of interpreting Bible, but the history support my claim.
If you think that God in Bible can punish people because of their mistake, but still regarded as loving god, why the same measure can’t be applied in understanding god in Islam and Prophet Muhammad teachings? By the way, Islam prohibit killing children, woman, old man and priest during war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war_in_Islam
Unlike Christians who indiscriminately killed man woman children during crusade, Inquisition, and war of religion among European which proved the savage nature of Bible teachings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
Wikipedia says: Once inside the city, as was standard military practice at the time,[16] the Crusaders massacred the Muslim inhabitants, destroyed mosques and pillaged the city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
Muslims are peaceful in nature. Only media ( internationally own by Jews ) portray them as terrorist. Did Taliban go to America and terrorizing American or otherwise? Did Iraqi government ever attack America that they think that they have the right to attack Iraq? Never. Then who are the terrorist? All the bombing did by Muslim are either self defense or revenge.
How can you be sure about salvation in a christianity package when there is no certainty about the real author of the bible ( which you heavily depend on ) ?
Wikipedia says: Most contemporary scholars consider Mark, Matthew, and John to have been written by ANONYMOUS Christians who were NOT eye witnesses to Jesus’ life. Some, but NOT ALL, of Paul’s epistles are considered genuine. Other attributions, such as 1 and 2 Peter, have not been supported by critical scholarship. On the other hand, the very late dates once suggested for the gospels have been largely DISCREDITED..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
Many versions of Bible in Christian denominations also shows the inconsistency and uncertainty on what you understand as the word of God. Then how can you be sooo sure any claim in Bible is really correct?
Lastly, if Jesus really sacrifice himself, which verses saying that he was willingly to do so ( I mean in detail because his refusal was in detail, not just combined general verses ) because as far as I’m concerned, Jesus did not ready to be sacrificed.
” From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” ["Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" in King James Version Bible] — which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:45-46 NIV)
Syukri
Dear Julian,
It’s has been sometimes and I still waiting for your reply . I hope that everything is fine with you and I also hope that you will reply me soon. Thank you. May Allah bless.
Syukri
Hi Syukri,
Thanks for your comment. May you be in a good health. Will gives you some reply soon. Quite busy for this couple of weeks. Take care and God bless.
Thank u syukri for ur explanation..
Hi,
Quran is not complete because it needs Hadist to explain it, unlike Bible. Muslims can not perform prayer if they only refer to Quran.
Quran is chaotic and unorganized while Bible is easy to read and clear.
Pro Christ, you kidding me???
Pro Christ,
“Bible is easy to read and clear” – Pro Christ.
If that is so, can you point out to me where exactly in the bible did Jesus says to worship him?
Salam to all,
Before I explain about relation between Quran and Hadist, I would like to state that Quran and Bible are incomparable. Why is that so?:
1. Even though some people doubt that Quran is the word of God, but at least they all agree that it authored by Muhammad. The origin of Quran therefore is clearer and more certain than Bible. Unlike Quran, Bible is ABOUT life of Jesus and his teaching, NOT authored by Jesus himself, but mostly penned by UNKNOWN authors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
2. No one argues that Quran was revealed in Arabic, while the original language of Bible is still debated among scholars ( Aramaic, koine Greek, Hebrew ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_primacy
3. Under Caliph Uthman, Quran with various Arabic dialects is united with Quraish Arabic dialect due to expansion of Islam to non-Arab. This lead to united version of Quran to all Muslim then until now. Quran read in Singapore is the same with Quran read in Africa, Europe or other part of the world. This phenomenon is reflected in annual international Quran recitation competition held in Muslim and non Muslim world.
http://muslimstoday.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/international-quran-competition-underway-in-moscow/
http://www.iqna.ir/en/news_detail.php?ProdID=447172
Unlike Quran, Bible underwent inspection and amendment throughout history to determine whether it is canon ( recognized ) or apocrypha ( hidden or unrecognized ). NOT every branch of the Christian church is in agreement as to which writings are to be regarded as “canonical” and which are “apocryphal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
Interestingly, Christians are also divided in determining their canonical Bible! Wikipedia says: Thus, the Protestant Old Testament of today has a 39-book canon—the number varies from that of the books in the Tanakh (though not in content) because of a different method of division—while the Roman Catholic Church recognizes 46 books as part of the canonical Old Testament. The term “Hebrew Scriptures” is only synonymous with the Protestant Old Testament, not the Catholic, which contains the Hebrew Scriptures and additional texts. Both Catholics and Protestants have the same 27-book New Testament Canon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
4. Quran is studied and read in its original language ( Arabic ) by Muslims regardless of their nationalities, thus preserving its authenticity, while Bible underwent ongoing translation thus destroy its beauty in the original language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an
Wikipedia says regarding the difficulty of Bible translation: As Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the Bible, have idioms and concepts not easily translated, there is an on going critical tension about whether it is better to give a word for word translation or to give a translation that gives a parallel idiom in the target language. For instance, in the English language Catholic translation, the New American Bible, as well as the Protestant translations of the Christian Bible, translations like the King James Version, the New Revised Standard Version, and the New American Standard Bible are seen as fairly literal translations (or “word for word”), whereas translations like the New International Version and New Living Translation attempt to give relevant parallel idioms. The Living Bible and The Message are two paraphrases of the Bible that try to convey the original meaning in contemporary language. The further away one gets from word to word translation, the text becomes easier to read while relying more on the theological, linguistic or cultural understanding of the translator, which one would not normally expect a lay reader to require.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations
5. Quran can be memorized wholly. There is million of Muslim who memorizes Quran all over the world.
http://www.memorize-quran.com/
No one memorizes the whole Bible ( do you? ), not even the Pope, because Christians don’t agree what defines Bible! ( Which Bible is the real Bible? Chatholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Ethiopian? ).
Therefore, Quran is incomparable with Bible. In the slightest degree, it only can be compared to Hadist in Islam although not all.
InsyaAllah, I will explain why Hadist is used to explain Quran.
Thank you for reading. Hope you enjoy it
Syukri
Pro Christ,
you still there buddy?
Eric and Syukri,
I’m still here. I will answer all those when you finish.
I’m done. Just waiting for you.
Or do you need more time to find that simple verse in the Bible where Jesus says that we are to worship him?
Thanks.
According to the predominant Christian interpretation, the title “Son of God” is understood as an expression of Jesus’ divinity, specifically his unique divine sonship as the Second Person of the Trinity.
The title is applied often in the Gospels, notably at the Baptism and the Transfiguration (Matthew 3:17 Matthew 17:5). Also significant is the confession of Peter: “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God” (Matthew 16:16). Jesus applies the title “the only Son of God” to himself in John 3:16 and John 10:36. John’s gospel uses the title as a short formula for expressing his divinity: “We have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_of_Jesus
Pro Christ,
maybe you misunderstood me, let me try this again: WHERE EXACTLY DID JESUS SAYS WE ARE TO WORSHIP HIM?
All those that you presented did not have any verse of him saying: WORSHIP ME.
So? How hard can it be to locate such verse?
read what the link that Norman has given:
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_onegod.htm#4
that clearly shows the direct opposite of what you explained buddy. So, the Bible is easy to read and clear? I dont think so my friend unless you can point to me that exact verse in the Bible where Jesus explicitly command us to worship him. Can you?
Eric,
Jesus revealed himself as God the way he wanted it. He provided proof of his godship based on our NEED, not our wanting. How can you be selfish in wanting? Does not your faith teach you to be obedient rather than being recalcitrant?
Pro Christ,
If obedient means to follow whats been instructed, than that will mean to follow what has been commanded by God in His Book. For your case, it will be the Bible.
Have you been following His commandments buddy? Jesus never commanded us to worship him. Its the “predominant Christian interpretation” that says so. Prove to me that he has with any verse that explicitly said so and I’ll be satisfied. Otherwise, I will not want to count myself as another blind follower of a commandmend made by man.
I’m still looking forward for that verse buddy where Jesus explicitly commanded us to worship him. Show me if you can.
Eric,
Give a break. Where is in Quran stated that Allah said ‘ I’m your God, worship me’ and Muhammad is a human and a prophet?
What matters in the end is not the existence of this direct literal
statement, but whether there is clear evidence that he is indeed
God, no matter in which form he issued the claim, right?
Oh Pro Christ,
How ignorant can you be my friend.
“Give a break. Where is in Quran stated that Allah said ‘ I’m your God, worship me’ and Muhammad is a human and a prophet?” – Pro Christ
Thanks for asking Buddy, here it is:
“Verily, I am Allah: There is no god but I: So worship Me (only), and perform regular prayers for My remembrance.” (Qu’ran 20:14)
and here it is regarding Muhammad being a prophet and human
“AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him…” (Qu’ran 3:144)
But of course, those are just two of many other verses reminding us of the above which can be found in the Qu’ran. One just need to look them up to find them. Can you point out where in the Bible did it tells you to worship Jesus?
In the end, it does matter. The only clear evidence should come from God’s own words and not Humans. Which again, in your case, it should be the Bible. The existence of these direct literal statements shows very clearly of the commandments of God from Himself thru His Book to us and not from any other “predominant Christian interpretation” which are obviously from humans and not God.
I believe you are holding firm that the Bible is the word of God. If that is so, if the Bible did not command you to worship Jesus, who commanded you to worship him then, my friend?
Thanks for your attention here buddy.
Muslims are again repeating the challenge that Jesus did not say “I am God. Worship Me”. However, Jesus did say ” I am… the Truth..”(John 14:6) The Truth is one of Allah’s 99 names. I have the truth from Jesus but I am not the truth.But Jesus is the Truth. Jesus is God. Also Jesus called himself the light of the world(John 8:12) The light is one of Allah’s 99 names. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John8:58-59) “I AM” being the name God used to refer to himself when he spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:14). So Jesus uses terms that is reserved for God when referring to himself(Jewish terms for God as well as terms that Muslims today use). Jesus is therefore saying that he is God. If Muslims say that Jesus did not say “I am God” or “Worship me” they are choosing to avoid the fact of Jesus’ claim to divinity(being God). Because if Jesus is God, then Islam is false. Muslim who say Jesus is God are no longer Muslims. So PRO CHRIST if you expect SUKRI or ERIC to agree with you or me(and admit that he gets the point), let me just say that I do not expect it to happen anytime soon — references: Amana Sheikh videos on youtube
Truth and Pro,
Lets not deviate here shall we. You are trying to prove that Jesus is God but all that I did was just responding to Pro Christ claim that the Bible is easy to read and clear.
So, all that I’ve constantly asked for now is if the Bible is so easy to read and clear as how Pro Christ has claimed, where is it then in the Bible did Jesus CLEARLY commanded us to worship him? Is it that difficult to answer such simple question guys?
{“AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him…” (Qu’ran 3:144)…..
The only clear evidence should come from God’s own words and not HUMANS. Which again, in your case, it should be the Bible. The existence of these direct literal statements shows very clearly of the commandments of God from Himself thru His Book to us and not from any other “predominant Christian interpretation” which are obviously from HUMANS and not God…}- Capitals mine for clarity.
The problem with what you(Eric) have written is this: Both the Bible and the Quran are supposed to be the message of God given through HUMANS e.g. Quran thru angel(supposedly) to Muhammed. The New Testament has more persons writing about the same related subject (e.g. Matthew, Peter ,and John are eye-witnesses to Jesus life and miracles).John 5:31 (NIV)” If I (Jesus)testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.” That is the problem with Muhammad and the Quran. He is his own witness (No one else saw or heard the angel). No other witnesses. Bearing in mind Jesus’ own words, I must reject the Quran because Muhammad testify about himself(being “an apostle” of God). Even the law courts want more witnesses. Is it not true that even in Islamic court cases, two or more witneses are required(as among the Jews- Deuteronomy 19:15) The New Testament has the 2 or 3 witnesses; others testifying about Jesus. The Quran has only the words of 1 man testifying about himself being an apostle of God. The truthfulness of the Quran is on weak foundation when seen through the concept of law as understood by Christians, Jews, Secular law, common sense (and perhaps even Islamic principles). The New Testament is on stronger foundation.
Eric
{Lets not, deviate here shall we. You are trying to prove that Jesus is God…….. where is it then in the Bible did Jesus CLEARLY commanded us to worship him?}.
You are right in saying that I am trying to prove that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, then we are to worship him.(I would think this is implied).So whether any verse exist in the New Testament in which Jesus claims ” Worship me” or not, becomes irrelevant if it is established that Jesus is God. By saying such a verse does not exist, you “deviate” from the real issue which is :”Is Jesus God?”. Jesus is asking you:(Matthew 16:15):”Who do you say I am?” . I hope you answer correctly.
Eric,
I would like to respond to truth and light from Son, You said ‘The New Testament has more persons writing about the same related subject (e.g. Matthew, Peter ,and John are eye-witnesses to Jesus life and miracles).
For your info, Matthew the apostle who eye-witnesses to Jesus is not the writer of Bible’ ” Gospel according to Matthew”. There are more than one person here.
Wikipedia says: Matthew the Evangelist is complex for a number of reasons. Both Epiphanius and Jerome state that Matthew wrote the Gospel according to the Hebrews. The gospel to bear the name “Matthew” was written ANONYMOUSLY, with tradition ascribing authorship to Matthew at a later date. Both the style of Greek used and the means of describing events leads a few to conclude that the author of the gospel was NOT A COMPANION OF THE HISTORIC JESUS. Some use the designation “Matthew the Evangelist” to refer to the ANONYMOUS gospel author, and “Matthew the Apostle” to refer to the Biblical figure described. Christian tradition holds that they are the same person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_the_Evangelist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
The same goes to other ‘eye witness’ of Jesus
John the Apostle, a disciple of Jesus, has been generally accepted as the author of the Fourth Gospel until the modern era. The authorship of the Fourth Gospel was rarely questioned seriously until the end of the eighteenth century.[15] The vast MAJORITY of modern scholars posit that the author was NOT an eyewitness to Jesus’ ministry.[16] Some contemporary scholars suggest still other possibilities of authorship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John
The gospel itself is ANONYMOUS, but as early as Papias in the early 2nd century, a text was attributed to Mark, a cousin of Barnabas.[2], who is said to have recorded the Apostle’s discourses. Papias’ authority in this was John the Presbyter. While the text of Papias is no longer extant, it was quoted by Eusebius of Caesarea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark
Therefore, your argument is not valid. No clear eye witnessess of Jesus. Bible is only a cocktail of stories about Jesus concocted by ANONYMOUS gospel authors.
In case of Muhammad, his companions are his eye witnesses who recorded his life in hadith that I will explain later.
Syukri
One glaring problem the Christians have is that Jesus prayed, and had a God himself. This logically lets us conclude that Jesus cannot be God. The logical thing to do is worship and pray to the one Jesus prayed to. If Jesus told you that he had a God, would you honestly take Jesus as God? The logical answer is no, but Christians throw all logic out when it comes to their Bible.
Matthew 26:36-44
36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter.
41. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”
42. He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.
Please so-called Christians, tell me when should I use “son of God” instead of “God” and vice versa. Because you call Jesus (peace be upon him) “son of God” and “God” whereas the Father is God but the Father is not Jesus.
So Father God is NOT Jesus God yet there is only 1 God: God, which is the Father. Sorry, no, Jesus. Oops! I forgot the Holy Spirit. Ooooh, give up. Could you just solve this tiny little equation please and I know you’ve understood:
1 1 1= ?
Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten–just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son.
The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity.
Syukri
I have read your links to wiki and your comments. I could refer to articles that support pro- Christian views. But that leads to a clash of expert opinions. Anyway the wiki article you quote says:”This article may need to be rewritten entirely to comply with Wikipedia’s quality standards.” Wiki is still a work in progress. (Also, who will accept if Wiki says Islam or Christianity is not true.)
Also, FYI, I did not mention Mark as an eye-witness. I heard that Mark was an assistant to Peter( so he probably did not meet Jesus. FYI – Luke also) However, Peter is an eye-witness. What are you to do with this statement:1 Peter 2:24“He (Christ) himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.”. Peter also said (1 Peter 1:1) -”Peter, an apostle of Jesus. To God’s elect” meaning he wrote the letter. The last two statements do not show that Peter was there throughout every minute of Jesus’ ministry. But it does show what Christians believed from the beginning. How do you account for that. (Please do not tell me that the New Testament has been changed.- lame excuse from Muslims.)
Now about what I wrote earlier.”That is the problem with Muhammad and the Quran. He is his own witness (No one else saw or heard the angel). No other witnesses.” Let me add “no miracles”. Your response please.
If you are to quote the hadith about Muhammad’s life and miracles, let me inform you that I have read (including on this blog site itself) from other Muslims that Muslims do not all agree on the validity of all the Hadiths. (Also there was one Muslim who, on this blog-site said that he was a Quran-only Muslim). It is no use quoting the Hadith to me if Muslims cannot agree on the Hadith or reject it completely.
May you see the light of the Son.
Dear truth,
I will respond to that. Thank you. Correct me if I’m wrong, your points of argument somehow show that you are Hamzah? Aren’t you?
Syukri
I am not Hamzah. Sept 6, 2009 is the first time I am writing on this site. I am writing because I do not see Emmanuel Reza or Hamzah responding here. They are far more knowledgeble than me. I have been following their writings. I am sure you know who they are. Also the points I bring up is not from my own head. These have been around (and now floating in cyber-space).e.g. Answering Islam.
Hi Syukri,
you sure have a good hunch there bro
I have just breezed thru the previous two posts. Truth sure sounds like that lame, I mean same 
, Hamzah with his hadiths and Quran only Muslims argument.
Pro Christ,
where are you buddy? Come back here dude. This is after all are the responses from your confident comment regarding your claim that the Bible is easy to read and clear. I am still looking forward to your opinion my friend.
Truth,
You still have not answered me satisfactorily. Since you hold firm that the Bible is from God, I want to know who commanded us to worship Jesus then since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so. Even though you guys believed that he is god, you have ASSUMED that you should worship to Jesus. The assumptions came from humans interpretation (which are of course open to errors). There is no direct word or command from God Himself in the Bible asking us to worship Jesus.
In any case, your Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God. Even with strong evidence that came directly from God’s Words to prove the FACT that Jesus IS NOT GOD, you guys are still saying Jesus is god? Read the below for comparisons and let us know of your opinion.
God has no god
“Thus says the LORD… I am the first, and I am the last. besides me there is no God…. Is there a God besides me? Indeed there is no other rock; I know not one.” (Isaiah 44:6,8)
Jesus has a God
“Do not cling to me; for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say to them, I am ascending to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17)
God is not a man
“God is not a man, that He should lie; nor a son of man, that he should repent: Has he said, and will not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19)
Jesus is a man
“Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know:” (Acts 2:22)
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (1 Timothy 2:5).
God cannot be tempted
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, nor does he tempt any man:” (James 1:13)
Jesus was tempted
“Because himself hath suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.” (Hebrews 2:18)
“For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:14-15)
God cannot be seen
“dwelling in inapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see.” (1Timothy 6:16)
Jesus was seen
“This is now the third time that Jesus showed himself to his disciples, after he was raised from the dead.” (John 21:14)
God knows everything
“Can anyone hide himself in secret places so that I will not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth?” (Jeremiah 23:24)
Jesus learnt
“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” (Luke 2:52)
“Though he was a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered;” (Hebrews 5:8)
“But of that day and that hour no one knows, neither the angels which are in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
God cannot die
“See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me… I live for ever.” (Deuteronomy 32:39-40)
“Who only hath immortality” (1 Timothy 6:16)
Jesus died
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.” (1Corinthians 15:3)
“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;” (Revelation 1:18)
God is subject to no one
“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,” (Isaiah 42:8)
Jesus is subject to God
“my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of woman is man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)
“Then the son also will be subject to Him that put all things under him” (1Corinthians 15:28)
God is everlasting
“Now unto the King, eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever” (1 Timothy 1:17)
Jesus was created
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.” (Galatians 4:4)
“… You are my Son, today I have begotten you” (Hebrews 1:5)
God is all powerful
“Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?” (Jeremiah 32:27)
“Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker; “Ask me of things to come concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands, you command Me. I have made the earth, and created man on it. It was I – My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded.” (Isaiah 45:11-12)
Jesus is not all powerful
“Then answered Jesus and said to them; Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he sees the Father do: for whatever he does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does” (John 5:19-20)
“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with vehement crys and tears to Him who was able to save him from death, and was heard because of his godly fear;” (Hebrews 5:7-8)
God is Perfect
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)
Jesus had to be made perfect
“And having been perfected, he became the author of eternal salvation” (Hebrews 5:9)
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God” (Luke 18:19)
Truth,
On top of what I have said, you’ve also said:
“…you “deviate” from the real issue which is :”Is Jesus God?”. Jesus is asking you:(Matthew 16:15):”Who do you say I am?” . I hope you answer correctly.” – Truth
Simon answered Jesus is Christ and Jesus himself acknowledged it. Christ is not god buddy. The term Christ means Messiah, the definition of Messiah is not God.
So where in that verse and also the preceding ones at the rest of Matthew 16 did Jesus and his followers answered that Jesus is god?
Show me where please
truth and light from son wrote…
Please do not tell me that the New Testament has been changed.- lame excuse from Muslims.
Now, what can be more lame than a Christian who denies the fact that the Bible has been changed at least once by man. Please do entertain us with your lamest explanation regarding 1 John 5:7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum). So Christians in denial, do what you do best, post your junks here.
To Eric
I mentioned earlier:
“If Jesus is God, then we are to worship him.(I would think this is implied).So whether any verse exist in the New Testament in which Jesus claims ” Worship me” or not, becomes irrelevant if it is established that Jesus is God.” Verses exist that point to Jesus being God and of people worshiping him (e.g. Matthew 28:9 ” They came to him…. and worshiped him”) But the reality is, Eric, YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE. That last verse, I am sure you will say, is not a command to worship Jesus (along with some other objections Muslims can produce). I do not wish to insult people, but I wonder if I am wasting my time talking to you; one who , I feel, wants to run away from the truth. (FYI – Jesus did not stop them from worshiping him.)
I wish to address other interesting points mentioned, later, when I have more time (I am working) and if I feel it is worthwhile to do so.
Dear ‘truth’
I’m referring to your verses proving that indeed Jesus was WORSHIPED, thus confirmed his divinity.
New International Version
9Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and WORSHIPED him.
I’ve checked the word ‘worship’ here and I found it misleading. It’s was not really an act of worship, but an act of respect or adoration by bowing. In Latin it called adoraverunt and in French prosternèrent.
You can compare various translations below that show the word ‘worship’ is not DEFINITIVE.
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
9As they were going, Jesus met them. He said `Greetings!’ The women BOWED DOWN in front of him and put their hands on his feet.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 28:9&version=NIV;WE
Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
9and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!’ and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did BOW to him.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 28:9&version=NIV;YLT
Darby Translation (DARBY)
9And as they went to bring his disciples word, behold also, Jesus met them, saying, Hail! And they coming up took him by the feet, and did him HOMAGE.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 28:9&version=NIV;DARBY
Arabic Translation
?????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ????? ??????? ???????? ???? ????????????? ???????: «???????!» ?????????????? ????????????? ????????????? ??????????? ????
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 28:9&version=NIV;ALAB
See, how can changes in translations can be manipulated into different meaning and perception? ( and to be used out of context here like the word god, father, lord etc ) By the way, the claim that Christians have changed The New Testament is NOT a lame excuse by Muslims. It really happened!
Therefore, your argument by using that verses to prove the divinity of Jesus is void.
Syukri
Truth,
“I do not wish to insult people, but I wonder if I am wasting my time talking to you; one who , I feel, wants to run away from the truth.” – truth
I’m not running away from the truth buddy. I am seeking the truth, like Norman I guess. Are you giving up now buddy? Or is the topic too hot for you to handle? I understand that you have to work but then, who doesn’t? I’ve never demanded for a prompt reply so please take your time to reply alright. Any ways, I appreciate you taking your time to reply my comments even though you didn’t respond to my last 2 posts regarding the obvious differences of God and Jesus that can be found in the Bible.
“Verses exist that point to Jesus being God and of people worshiping him (e.g. Matthew 28:9 ” They came to him…. and worshiped him”) But the reality is, Eric, YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE.” – Truth
I saw that, truth, and along with it the other accounts from the other 3 Gospels relating to the same incident. You are right on your guess that I do not see that as a commandment. But the reality now is, truth, YOU ONLY SEE THE PART WHERE IT SAYS THESE TWO WORSHIPED HIM, YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE THE DISCREPANCIES OF THE REPORTING OF THE EVENT FOUND IN THE OTHER 3 GOSPELS (The caps are not shouts ya. Just to emphasize).
Let me give you just one obvious example here buddy. Here are the reporting of the same incident where the ladies went to the tomb by Matthew’s and Mark’s Gospels (I just need two to prove my point)
Matthew 28:1-2
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for AN ANGEL of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, ROLLED BACK THE STONE and sat on it. – Matthew 28:1-2
Mark 16:1-4
1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
4But when they looked up, THEY SAW THAT THE STONE, which was very large, HAD BEEN ROLLED AWAY. – Mark 16:1-4
The stone had already been rolled away when they reached the tomb??? No angels or what so ever???
That is just one of many many reports that is contradicting one another in just this one simple event. Like how you’ve mentioned earlier on regarding witnesses, if you bring these testimonies to our civil court as a defense material, your credibility of the account as a witness will be void my friend. With that in mind, how are we to believe that verse that you gave about both Marry worshiped Jesus is true? Conviction? I do not wish to insult people too but I think that’s what people would call, blind faith.
Please always be reminded too that my comments are in response to Pro Christ’s claim that the Bible is easy to read and clear. So is the Bible really that easy to read and clear now?
I’ll understand if you’ll take your leave here. I wont want to hold you up further now. Thanks for your time and attention buddy. Peace out.
Hi Syukri,
Good post there regarding the term worshiped that was being used
Hi all,
Example of Bible translation:
‘he kisses her’
because kissing is ASSUMED as an act of love, therefore, later it translated:
‘he loves her’
after 50 years or so, because love is always ASSOCIATED with marriage, the phrase is translated:
‘he marry her’
In Malay folk stories, ada seorang kolonial orang Putih pada zaman dahulu ingin menyeberang sungai. Lalu dikatakan padanya bahawa dalam sungai itu ada BUAYA ( crocidle ).
Oleh kerana dia datang dari bandar, dia tidak tahu apakah maksud buaya. Lalu dikatakan padanya buaya itu seperti BIAWAK ( monitor lizard ), tetapi lebih kecil.
Dia masih tidak faham apakah maksud biawak. Lalu dikatakan padanya biawak itu seperti CICAK ( lizard ).
Dia pun senang hati kerana dalam sungai hanya ada binatang kecil seperti cicak yang tidak berbahaya. Akhirnya dia pun menyeberang ke dalam sungai dan dibaham BUAYA.
Si Kitul
In Matthew 28:9 case, it started when some people bowed to Jesus, later it changed as paying homage, and later to suit Christian hidden agenda, it changed to worship. What a mischievous deception!
Allah clearly mentioned this phenomenon:
Al Quran2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:”This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
Allah also commented some stubborn disbeliever attitude:
Al Quran 2:145 Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy direction; nor art thou going to follow their direction; nor indeed will they follow each other’s direction.( eg: Catholic vs Protestant etc ) If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.
Hi…
Thanks to all Christ believers for your comments. God bless you all. For all of our so called smart and intelligent friends that is still arguing with all your wiki-wiki and wiki ( which tells you what it is but never tell you what it was ) about the Bible and the truth and since that you really confident to what you believed, I want to ask you this. What on earth you do to go to heaven? Anyone gives you any assurance yet? Do you think by doing all good things will show that you died without any sins? Who forgives your sins than? Will you be in heaven if you die ? If you think so, who tells you that? Did God directly talk to you or did Quran mentioning about your personal salvation? Or you just hope for it? Go ahead with all your brilliants ideas and arguements and be a winner in your human knowledge. Think hard my friend as you wish from millions and millions of knowledges. Afterall, what the use of knowledge without salvation. It’s ok if I’am not as smart as you guy’s. I don’t need it. I just want to go to heaven and I know Jesus has promised me and gives me the assurance. But remember my friend that Judgement Day can be anytime in our life. As from many thoughts and knowledges, personally I choosed only one. That is to believe and recieve love and salvation in Jesus, my King, my Friend, my Lord and my Savior. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.
God loves and bless all of you. Halleluyah!
Hi Christ believer,
You guys seems to be shy with your names. Whats up with the red Indian style kind of names you have there? If you do not want to use your real names well at least put a Robert, Brad, Keannu or something like that dudes. At least it sounds more human and personal. Otherwise, I might consider changing mine to Dances with Wolves just to fit in alright.
“It’s ok if I’am not as smart as you guy’s. I don’t need it. I just want to go to heaven…” – Christ believer
Christ believer, you sure sound like some one who is desperately looking for salvation at all cost. And I hope you will look for it well enough with your “so called smart and intelligent” approach too.
To begin things, let me talk about your wiki-wiki and wiki. If you have not known, wikipedia is a website that holds a higher level of authority and reliability as compared to your beloved http://www.answering-islam.org which is of course is heavily biased when it comes to searching for reference. Also compared to http://www.answering-islam.org, wiki’s contents are full of articles coming from NON-BIASED SOURCES and that is why it is prefered. I mean, we could have used sites such as http://www.answering-christianity.com as our sources if we wanted to but that wont count for you guys, wont you agree? Read wikipedia’s publishing guideline here to understand further about their neutrality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
Besides, if it isn’t reliable, how else can you explain for one of your beloved brethrens to have used it as his source of reference when talking about Quran only Muslims among other things that he has used it for?
Now for your questions. They sure sound like it comes from another smart and intelligent person. No wait, it sounds more like it came from a “smart and intelligent” IGNORANT person. Please don’t be like Pro Christ. Asking without searching first. It’ll just show how “smart and intelligent” you are.
If you are just too lazy to search for it and read, go watch this instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNFAM2dQ-sI
That my friend, comes from a former believing Christian who embraced Islam. Some one who has seen the truth through logic. And not blind faith.
Hope that answers you bro. Thanks for dropping a comment here and peace to you
To Eric
You wrote,
“Please always be reminded too that my comments are in response to Pro Christ’s claim that the Bible is easy to read and clear.” I did not address this statement as I feel that if Pro Christ said it, then he should support his statement. I have heard that “one holy” book is easier to read than another. That is one point I have avoided so far. The reason being: even if one holy book is easier to read, it does not mean that that “holy book” is God’s word.
To your suggestion that there is a contradiction in the account of the Risng of Jesus from the dead on Easter Sunday that you quoted :”Matthew 28:1-2
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for AN ANGEL of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, ROLLED BACK THE STONE and sat on it. – Matthew 28:1-2
Mark 16:1-4
1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
4But when they looked up, THEY SAW THAT THE STONE, which was very large, HAD BEEN ROLLED AWAY. – Mark 16:1-4
The stone had already been rolled away when they reached the tomb??? No angels or what so ever???”
My question to you is :WHERE IS THE CONTRADICTION?1) Matthew 28:1-2 does NOT say that the women saw the angel move the stone. When they arrived at the tomb, the stone had already been removed. As to your statement:”No angels or what so ever???” – “Matthew 28:5” The angel said to the women..”, Mark 16:5 “As they entered the tomb, a young man dressed in a white robe…” (Eric, this is your what so ever”. ). Luke 24:4” Suddenly, two men in clothes that gleamed like lightnning.” – The presence of angels (describe in different ways). I suggest to you, Eric, that you are looking for contradictions here, where there are none. Perhaps you (and Muslims) should read the Bible looking for truth rather than to find fault.
Truth, thanks for your reply,
“WHERE IS THE CONTRADICTION?” – Truth
These are contradictions, buddy. You just chose not to see them instead. Besides, I never looked up for them. They are just there waiting. Its is looking for the truth that we found faults along the way.
“Matthew 28:1-2 does NOT say that the women saw the angel move the stone” – Truth
Well done. Very good. Very good. So, what you are saying is that since Matthew 28:1-2 does NOT say that the women saw the angel moved the stone thus the women did not see the angel moving the stone then. If you know how to apply that logic there, why don’t you apply that same logic that you have onto the Bible where it does NOT say and commanded that we are to worship Jesus? This very same logic of yours, my friend, is also telling us that If the Bible does not tell us to worship Jesus we are then NOT to worship Jesus, period.
I knew you would come up with that old and worn out polemic reason that the Gospels gave non contradicting accounts for they need to be pieced up together to form “The Big Picture”. Just how many pieces must we combine in order to see “The Big Picture” before we finally get ourselves confused? The word of God must be stated very clearly to avoid confusion my friend. Your Bible said it too:
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” – 1 Corinthians 14:33
Thanks for reading the whole comment buddy.
To Eric
In your attempt to show that the Bible contradicts itself, you have made a mistake by giving an example that shows clearly your biased and faulty thinking. I know that there are “difficult to understand” problem passages in the Bible; but the example you gave is not a problem to me. You even wrote in CAPITALS-” …..AN ANGEL of the Lord …, going to the tomb, ROLLED BACK THE STONE and sat on it. “– Matthew 28:1-2…and…Mark 16:4“But when they looked up, THEY SAW THAT THE STONE, which was very large, HAD BEEN ROLLED AWAY. “– from Mark 16:1-4. – to highlight what you see as a contradiction; that is to suggest that in one passage the women saw the angel move the stone. Whereas in the other passage, the stone had already been removed.
I do not think I misunderstand what you were tryng to say because you also said:”The stone had already been rolled away when they reached the tomb???” (Highlighting this fact with 3 question marks).
Let me point out to you “THERE WAS a violent earthquake, for angel of the Lord came down from heaven …… – Matthew 28:1-2 “THERE WAS ” meaning “it happened”. It does not say that it happened in front of the women. So there is no contradiction.
Are you mistaken, or are you trying to create a contradiction (and cause confusion)? . FYI – My God is not a God of confusion ,(1 Corinthians 14:33).
Perhaps what you have done, Eric, is provide a good and clear example of the faulty way Muslims read the Bible.
to Amin,
You said,”Could you just solve this tiny little equation please and I know you’ve understood: 1 1 1 = ?.”
Your question refers to the the Christian belief referred to as “the Trinity”. This belief, as I see it, is among the more difficult to explain. I could try here, but there are people who are more capable than me in this area. (My job is not in a church). You could try “Answering Islam”. I chose to respond to you to make a comment.
A person standing outside of Christianity and Islam may look at Christianity and think – “These odd people who believe in these nonsensical ideas about three gods but will not admit that it is actually three gods.” And about Islam he may think, “They believe in a message supposedly from God through an angel that nobody else saw or heard to only one man and we are all supposed to believe it.” What is you answer to such a person?
Asking me to explain the Holy Trinity is asking the material to explain the Immaterial.(I heard one interesting example though). There is a danger of falling into error. There is enough indication of the idea of Trinity in the Bible for me to have faith that the idea is true. My faith is not blind. Is yours blind?
As I mentioned earlier,”a message supposedly from God through an angel that nobody else saw or heard to only one man and we are all supposed to believe it.” Let me add, “No miracles”. Can you explain on what basis you believe the Quran? So many (Sukri, Eric, Salim.. etc) comment on the Bible and Christian belief. But I do not remember seeing anyone try to prove the statement about the Quran as unreasonable. Is the statement reasonable, Amin?
“In your attempt to show that the Bible contradicts itself” -Truth
In my attempt? I don’t have to attempt anything “truth” nor do I need to create a contradiction. I’ve made no mistake as it’s there for all to see unless you chose not to. My examples aren’t biased for they are logical. And the only good and clear example that I have provided here is how the faulty way the Christians read the Bible.
Ok, lets don’t just stop at 28:1-2 shall we. Move on a little further. In fact let’s move all the way to cover Matthew 28.
Since you were persistent in pointing out that:
“Matthew 28:1-2 does NOT say that the women saw the angel move the stone” – Truth
AND
““THERE WAS a violent earthquake, for angel of the Lord came down from heaven …… – Matthew 28:1-2 “THERE WAS ” meaning “it happened”. It does not say that it happened in front of the women.” – Truth
Tell me then, “truth”, where in Matthew 28 then did it mention that the women actually went inside the tomb? Show me please. If you can’t, then FYI, it did not mention anything about the women going inside the tomb anywhere in Matthew 28 at all. If it did, it should have looked something like this found in Mark 16:5 and Mark 16:8
Mark 16:5
“As THEY ENTERED THE TOMB, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe…” – Mark 16:5
Mark 16:8
“Trembling and bewildered, the women WENT OUT and fled FROM THE TOMB…” – Mark 16:8
So, in accordance to your logic in regards to the women not seeing the angel moved the stone as it was not mentioned in Matthew 28 this whole of Matthew 28 is in fact saying that the women did not enter the tomb at all (That is already one contradiction with Mark 16 report, my friend). And if they did not enter the tomb, they were then outside the tomb.
Read Matthew 28:2-5
“2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified” – Matthew 28:2-5
That verse 5 came immediately after the verse where the guards were being so afraid and was shaken at verse 4. If that event of the rolling of the stone was not witnessed by the women, why then in verse 5 it tells us that the angel bothered to tell the women on not to be afraid after knowing that the guards were shaken to near death and not telling us that the women went into the tomb?
If you still tell me that there is no contradiction in my points at all after what I have presented to you, than I guess you are just trying to tell me that Matthew’s author was just plain lazy to write in detail. Because afterall, your God is not a God of confusion right?
I hope you read this comment of mine fully. I have a feeling that you didn’t with my previous ones because you seemed to ignore some of my arguments. But in anyways, thanks again buddy for your views. Even though I don’t agree with them, I really appreciate that.
Peace to you bro.
To Eric
Thank you for your reply. I wish to leave the issue standing as it is with yours as the last comment on this topic. Enough has been said by you and I. Whether you or I have made a mistake “it’s there for all to see” as you have correctly said. Peace to you too. Brother.
Pro Christ,
If you are still here buddy…
“…Bible is easy to read and clear” – Pro Christ.
“I know that there are “difficult to understand” problem passages in the Bible…” – truth and light from the Son
I guess you don’t have to convince me anymore about whether the Bible is easy to read and clear or not. Your brethren in Christ has just helped you answer it dude.
Take care there buddy
Truth,
Well said bro. And let there be no hard feelings ya. Its just clashes of opinions that we are engaged in. Nothing personal. Peace again to you too bro
salam to all,
I laughed when I read comment from Eric with his witty remark, like red indian stuff etc. I’ve never expected that religious discussion can be funny and lively. I’ve also impressed with Eric knowledge of Christianity. Where do you study, Eric? I also appreciate ‘truth’ point of view of Islam like how we are supposed to believe in one person who claimed he received revelation through angel etc in which I will response later with Quran and hadist things. InsyaAllah.
I hope we can discuss in a civil manner, unlike Hamzah before, with his unmindful personal insult to Prophet Muhammad that in the end he himself has to close his post in an embarrassing way.
My Quranic recitation everyday has become better since I can see its context clearly now.
Last comment from Eric is in line with Quranic teaching:
29:46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury *): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”
*like Hamzah
Islamic universal call:
3:64 Say: “O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.” If then they turn back, say ye: “Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah’s Will).
Mind of evangelist:
3:69 It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!
The attitude of Christian with regard to Bible:
3:71 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?
Quranic plea to Christian:
3:98 Say: “O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?”
3:99 Say: “O ye People of the Book! Why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, Seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah’s Covenant)? but Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do.”
Promise of Allah to Muslim:
4:123 Not your desires, nor those of the People of the Book (can prevail): whoever works evil, will be requited accordingly. Nor will he find, besides Allah, any protector or helper.
Objective Quranic call to Christian:
4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
5:15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book*, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-
* and changed ( like bow = respect = worship case in Matthew 28: 9 )
Allah’s warning:
5:77 Say: “O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.
Can you see how precise the context of Quran with our situation/ discussion?
Therefore, This WORD can not come from human. It’s from Allah, the All Knowing.
Syukri
To Truth,
before I answer your question about Quran and hadits, and about one person claiming he received revelation ( how we are supposed to believe him ) , I would like to clarify first: you said ‘no miracle’. What do you mean? Do you mean that Prophet Muhammad show no miracle, unlike Jesus?
Syukri
Hi…
It’s seems that you guys are doing really hard to understand the Bible. Just to let us see if the Bible, especially the one that our friend Eric mentioned does’nt matched. I still don’t know why we still don’t believe it. I see nothing different. In fact it’s a beutiful story which is matched from every verses that we read from both the book of Matthew and Mark.
Let’s put this two books and story into one.
MATTHEW 28:1 NOW AFTER the Sabbath, near dawn of the first day of the week, Mary of Magdalene and the other Mary went to take a look at the tomb. ( But before they go…)
MARK 16:1 They together with Salome purchased sweet-smelling spices, so that they might go and anoint [Jesus' body]. (2) And very early on the first day of the week they came to the tomb; [by then] the sun had risen. (3) And they said to one another, Who will roll back the stone for us out of [the groove across the floor at] the door of the tomb? ( By their own strength, there’s no way they will be able to remove the stone.)
MATTHEW 28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled the boulder back and sat upon it. (3) His appearance was like lightning, and his garments as white as snow. (4) And those keeping guard were so frightened at the sight of him that they were agitated and they trembled and became like dead men.
MARK 16:4 And when they [both Mary's] looked up, they [distinctly] saw that the stone was already rolled back, for it was very large.
MATTHEW 28:5 But the angel said to the women, Do not be alarmed and frightened, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, Who was crucified. (6) He is not here; He has risen, as He said [He would do]. Come, see the place where He lay. [ As they go in, the angel has been waiting for them inside the tomb).
MARK 16:5 And going into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting [there] on the right [side], clothed in a [ long, stately, sweeping] robe of white, and they were utterly amazed and struck with terror. (6) And he said to them, Do not be amazed and terrified; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, Who was crucified. He has risen; He is not here. See the place where they laid Him. 7) But be going; tell the disciples and Peter, He goes before you into Galilee; you will see Him there, [just] as He told you.
I never wanted to proof that I am smart. I am just ordinary people. But this is the perfect matching facts from two different books. Lets all know that the books of the Bible not done like photostates, rather, it’s has been written by different person but with the perfect combinations. Perfect matches. So, it’s up to you to believe. God’s love us all.
To Christ Believer,
You said’ Lets all know that the books of the Bible not done like photostates, rather, it’s has been written by different person but with the perfect combinations. Perfect matches.’
1.Could you please comment about different translations of Matthew 28:9 and later lead to different understanding? ( bowing become adoration, then become worship, and the word worship is unscrupulously used to justify divinity of Jesus )?
2.Who are those different author exactly?
3. How do you decide canonical or apocrypha Bible?
4. Why Christians differ in their canonical if Bible is with ‘perfect combination and matches’?
5. In your personal opinion, what defines BIBLE?
Syukri
To Sukri
You ask”you said ‘no miracle’. What do you mean? Do you mean that Prophet Muhammad show no miracle, unlike Jesus?”.
Ask any Christian whether Jesus did miracles and the answer is a clear “Yes”.(Even Muslims will agree.) Ask a Muslim, whether Prophet Muhammad did miracles and the answer is less clear from Muslims. One Muslim who was trying to prove to me that Prophet Muhammad could do miracles like Moses (He was talking about Muhammad being the Prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 ) sent me this collection.”# Splitting of the Moon (Volume 6, Book 60, Number 388)
# Food Multiplication (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 780)
# Water Multiplication (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 779 & 777; Volume 1, Book 7, Number 340; )
# Supplication for Rain (Volume 8, Book 73, Number 115)
# Lights to guide Companions (Volume 1, Book 8, Number 454)
# Crying of the stem of the Date-palm Tree (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 783)
# Glorification of Allah by the Prophet’s meals (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 779)
# The explusion of a Christian liar’s corpse by the Earth (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814)
# The Prophet’s Night Journey to Jerusalem and Ascent to the Heavens (Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228; Volume 4, Book 54, Number 462; Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227)
# healing of ill and wounded people
# The Prophet’s protection as a miracle”
But if this are from the Hadith, even Muslims may have trouble accepting them ( Thats why there are Quran- only Muslims, I think.). Why should I accept them (except through blind faith.) That is why I say “No miracles.”
To truth,
I laugh when you say why should you accept them / Islam ( except through blind faith) whereas your faith is more confusing and chaotic. I will explain Quran hadith things on this weekend. Very good joke indeed, and no one yet dare to comment my comparison between Quran and Bible dated August 31 and deceptive translation of Matthew 28: 9 dated 8 Sep.
Your answer that YES Jesus indeed show miracle is what I actually want you to say. That mean Jesus is a HUMAN BEING. Because if he is god, every unusual thing done by him is natural for god, not miracle. God created earth and heaven, gives life and death and wonderful thing and nobody say that its a miracle. That’s god work.
And you compare Jesus to Muhammad, a human being! Why don’t you compare Jesus with Allah, muslim god?
That show that subconciously you admit that Jesus is only human, not god, but for some reason ( blind faith most probably ) you chose to ignore this fact.
Pity you.
Syukri
I laugh when you say why should you accept them / Islam ( except through blind faith) whereas your faith is more confusing and chaotic. I will explain Quran hadith things on this weekend. Very good joke indeed, and no one yet dare to comment my comparison between Quran and Bible dated August 31 and deceptive translation of Matthew 28: 9 dated 8 Sep.
Your answer that YES Jesus indeed show miracle is what I actually want you to say. That means Jesus is a HUMAN BEING. Because if he is god, every unusual thing done by him is natural for god, not miracle. God created earth and heaven, gives life and death and wonderful thing and nobody say that its a miracle. That’s god work. God is doing it everyday.
And you compare Jesus to Muhammad, a human being! Why don\’t you compare Jesus with Allah, Muslim god?
That show that subconsciously you admit that Jesus is only human, not god, but for some reason ( blind faith most probably ) you chose to ignore this fact.
Pity you.
Syukri
To Syukri
You say to ‘Christ Believer” -”Could you please comment about different translations of Matthew 28:9 and later lead to different understanding? ( bowing become adoration, then become worship, and the word worship is unscrupulously used to justify divinity of Jesus )?” – Syukri
My response, if you care to consider is this:- I (a non- scholar of the Bible) quoted a verse of only one English TRANSLATION of the Bible(NIV version) that was made after the year 1970.
For the sake of discussion, let us assume that there was an error in the translation. For your information, the worship of Jesus DID NOT begin after 1970. The major beliefs of main-stream Christianity (the Trinity, The death of Jesus on the cross for the sins of the world, his Rising from the dead, etc…) were already established by the time of the appearance of Islam around the year 600 A.D.(roughly) and even before that. Even the Quran indicates that – “Say not “Trinity” from 4:171 (from Syukri’s comment.). I do not believe that core Christian beliefs arose from ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS or other translations for that matter. I am not even sure that they arose from the Greek (Greek being the original language.) But would it not be more logical to assume that the Greek (the original language) is the source of Christian beliefs rather than any translation. So I find your statement -”different translations of Matthew 28:9 and later lead to different understanding? ( bowing become adoration, then become worship, and the word worship is unscrupulously used to justify divinity of Jesus )?” – Syukri -, I find your statement nonsensical and mischievous.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the core Christian ideas are found in the Greek manuscripts ( before they were translated to English). There are experts on the Greek language as you know, I am sure.
Hi Syukri,
Likewise here bro. You’ve impressed me too. I really appreciate that you appreciate there
As for my studies, they are all secular and there was a Bible studies subject in my former school before and I have friends in one of those “Cell Groups” thingy, so I guess thats where the Christian background came from. Take care there bro and peace to you now.
Hi Christ believer,
“It’s seems that you guys are doing really hard to understand the Bible.” – Christ believer
“Let’s put this two books and story into one.” – Christ believer
Ah I see, combining two books to read just one simple story. Now that doesnt seem so hard doesnt it? So, let me get this right, “ordinary” people like you can read one whole story only when several books are combined then? Am I right to say that? I’m not sure about you buddy, but my idea of an easy book for ordinary people to read will be where one just need to read it from left to right at one go and thats it. Just ONE BOOK. Point will be understood and the whole story ends. No flipping back and forth of the pages to get the whole story.
“…this is the perfect matching facts from two different books” – Christ believer
Okay…lets talk about these facts now. Oh wait, lets not complicate things. We’ll talk about just one “FACT” now shall we? Lets read here:
Matthew 27:51-53
“51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” – Matthew 27:51-53
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this “FACT” was recorded in Matthew only. I guess Mark, Luke and John were just too shocked to ever remembered to note this significant event down. No other gospels besides Matthew recorded any earthquake or resurrection of dead. Right?
Ok, lets take it that we “selectively” chose Matthew for this “FACT” to ever happen. This is where I have a problem now buddy, I wanted to believe it but too many odds are just against me. I’ve tried to search all over for this monumental event but I just can’t find it in secular historical records. No earthquake and ESPECIALLY no massive influx of formerly DEAD PEOPLE ROSE FROM THE DEAD is ever mentioned in any secular historical records anywhere, which is strange given how monumental such an event would be. In case you do not know what a monumental event is, I’ll give you an example. One REAL ancient monumental event that was ever recorded would be, Pompeii. Are you with me so far buddy?
So, my friend, maybe “ordinary” people like you can help me out with this. Could you please provide me with any SECULAR HISTORICAL RECORD of the event I have just mentioned, especially about the dead people rose from the dead, to just help me convinced more about the events in the Gospels being real. Thanks buddy and peace to you now.
Hello again Truth
I am not trying to start things with you but…
“I AM NOT even SURE that they arose from the Greek (Greek being the original language.).” – Truth
“But would it not be more logical TO ASSUME that the Greek (the original language) is the source of Christian beliefs rather than any translation.” -Truth
Don’t assume when you are not sure buddy, this is suppose to be the Word of God we are talking about here. Be more certain and concrete with proof. For you should know very well, if your assumptions are wrong and we believed you, ASSUME will only means that…it’ll make an ASS out of yoU and ME bro. Just my two cents
To Truth,
One good thing about this discussion, even if I can’t convince anybody, at least it convinces me about the truthfulness of Islam and falsehood of other faith because it makes me study and think.
About the translation of Bible, I just want to show to the readers the desperation of Trinitarian to justify their faith at whatever cost, even to deceptively change the original meaning.
The belief of Trinity before 1970 does not mean that that belief is definitive and correct, and facts from Quran and the existence of non-trinitarian denominations in Christianity reaffirmed that.
I brought translation that I understand i;e English, Latin, French and Arabic to show that the transliterate word is ‘bowing’, not worship to show Bible inconsistency in translation thus leading to confusion and deception. I don’t read Greek though.
For argument sake, let’s say that Greek is the original language of Bible ( even though it is not final and still debated )The issue is, if I bring you the proof in Greek that support my argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping, are you going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
Say yes or no because I don’t want to waste my time researching to argue with someone who has no clear stand and objective judgment.
Syukri
To Truth
laughed hard when you say why should you accept them / Islam ( except through blind faith) whereas your faith is more confusing and chaotic. I will explain Quran hadith things today or tomorrow. Very good joke indeed, and no one yet dare to comment my comparison between Quran and Bible dated August 31.
So you brought yourself proof from hadith that affirmed Muhammad miracles so that before I bring it, then argue hadith legitimacy. Very smart.
To my question whether Jesus show miracle, your answer that ‘YES, Jesus indeed show miracle’ is what I actually want you to say. My point is, that mean Jesus is a HUMAN BEING. Because if he is god, every unusual thing done by him is natural for god, not miracle. God, Elohim or Allah created earth and heaven, gives life and death and wonderful thing and nobody say that its a miracle. That’s god trait.
And you compare Jesus to Muhammad, a human being! Why don’t you compare Jesus with Allah, Muslim god?
That show that subconsciously you admit that Jesus is only regular human bestowed with miracle, and not a god, but for some reason ( blind faith most probably ) you chose to ignore this fact.
Pity you.
Syukri
Rephrase:So you brought yourself proof from hadith that affirmed Muhammad miracles before I bring it, then you argue hadith legitimacy in the light of Quran only movement in Islam, so that I can’t use proof from hadith about the miracle of Muhammad. Very smart.
Syukri
To Eric
Thanks for the info bro. What a perfect combination. My studies is all religion and arabic ( that explain my smattering English
). My Quran recitation never be the same as before because I can see the perspectives of its content clearly now. Alhamdulillah.
I recommend all readers to read Quran and try to understand it context slowly, willingly and joyfully. InsyaAllah. Then you will appreciate your faith deeply.
17:9 Verily this Qur’an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;
6:125 Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
Syukri
Hi Syukri,
It was my pleasure bro
This is what its called, God’s will. May the truth prevails. Peace to you bro and also to all now.
To Eric
Thanks for your words of caution regarding my writing on Sept. 12 2009, 4am.
My focus then was, firstly, to show that core Christian beliefs are found in the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament before any English translation was made; which means the idea or suggestion that “Core Christian beliefs arose from wrong translations” is wrong.(Please also consider this as a reply to ‘Si Kitul – Sept 8, 4:38pm -Example of Bible translation.)
It was not my intention to say from where the Core Christian beliefs came but rather to show from where they did not come. I expressed this in the way that I thought best at the time and I hope all readers get the point.(I was not trying to teach that Core Christian beliefs came from the Greek manuscripts but to show that the beliefs are present there.) Thanks again for your comments.
Hi Truth,
To err is human, to forgive divine. And thank you for considering my comments bro
To Sukri
You say
“For argument sake, let’s say that Greek is the original language of Bible …The issue is, if I bring you the proof in Greek that support my argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping, are you going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
Say YES OR NO because I don’t want to waste my time researching to argue with someone who has no clear stand and OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT.” – Sukri Sept 12, 11.33 am. (CAPITALS mine for clarity)
Two thoughts occurred to me as I saw the words YES OR NO and the words OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT. With limited time, I wish to share with you my thoughts on the words OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT first.
I cannot stop you from believing I have no OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT if that is what you want to believe. (OBJECTIVE means “without bias” – says dictionary). I could say that of you, and we both can get into a fruitless exchange of insults. That is not my style.
You are aware, I hope, that objective judgement is what I appeal to, to try to get people to believe in the Bible. I cannot tell people to believe in the Bible as the word of God BECAUSE the Bible refers to itself as the word of God.(Along the thinking of John5:31 and Deutoronomy 19:15) . People would think I am not objective. That is why I present the different New Testament(NT) books as documents of multiple witnesses.(This is not my original idea). Some NT books (Letters of Paul, Peter, James) are claimed to have been written by the writers themselves in the the books. (1 Peter 1:1 James 1:1).
In comparison, I feel a Muslim cannot apply the same method if a Muslim wanted to get someone to believe in the Quran. The Quran has only Muhammmad witnessing to himself being a prophet.(Sukri, you may present the common view about Muhammad clearly being the writer of the Quran as a strength, as you did in August 31, but actually it can be seen as a weakness.)
If an inquirer were to ask me about Christianity and Islam, I would point to the multiple witnesses of the New Testament against the onely one witness of the Quran. Also the undeniable miracles of Jesus against the questionable miracles of Muhammad that even the Muslims themselves have doubts about and have trouble proving.
You say that ” {‘truth’s} faith is more confusing and chaotic” (sept 12 — 11:44am) but I have been able to say,at least,( since Sept 7)why I believe in the Bible. I have been waiting for your (or anyone’s) reply on why I should believe the Quran. Is the answer ” confusing and chaotic” that you cannot say it simply in a few words. (Note: Some people say bible is easier to read: That does not make it true. Christianity may be more confusing; that does not make it false.). An objective person will read what I have written an say that there is some truth there. Something for (hopefully) objective persons to think about.
Salam to all,
Pro Christ said “Quran is weak because it needs hadith to explain it’. Beside, there is Quran only Muslim, said Truth. This argument is used by Christian to disqualify integrity of Quran and subsequently, Islam. My answer is as below:
1.Firstly, In the Quranic view, the using of hadith ( saying of Prophet Muhammad ) to explain the general word of Quran is approved and legitimate.
6:64 And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst MAKE CLEAR to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.
16:44 (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest EXPLAIN CLEARLY to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
2. The combination of Quran and hadith is not weakness, but completion and perfection. To put it into perspective, Quran is like “ CONSTITUTION”. It’s a set of general rules that applies to anyone at any place and anytime. But, can constitution works itself or interpreted by anyone? Of course not, because it will lead to million interpretation and disunity. That’s why constitution is interpreted by our standard practice by executive, legislature and the judiciary. Does that relationship show that constitution is not perfect because it need to be explained and decided by second party? No. Therefore, Quran Hadith relationship is practical and valid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution
3. Other example of this nature of this relationship is like medical PRESCRIPTION. When doctor gives a prescription, it will be written using symbol that cannot be understood by patient, and therefore will be interpreted by pharmacist. It NEVER means that prescription is not perfect because it need a pharmacist to translate it. Or the doctor is weak because he needs pharmacist to interpret his prescription. ( Or can you understand symbols in prescription naturally? ). Quran is like prescription, and Muhammad is like a pharmacist. What’s wrong with this relationship? It’s reciprocal, not defective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_prescription
In short, Quran contains divine general line and Prophet Muhamad explain and put it into the perspective of human live in detail ( in all everyday life ). Firstly recorded in oral tradition and later compiled.
4. This relationship is not exclusive to Islam alone. For the sake of comparison, Christianity also have what is called ‘ PRIMA SCRIPTURA’. Wikipedia says: Implicitly, this view acknowledges that, besides canonical scripture, there are OTHER GUIDES for what a believer should believe, and how he should live, such as the created order, traditions, charismatic gifts, mystical insight, angelic visitations, conscience, common sense, the views of experts, the spirit of the times or something else. Prima scriptura suggests that ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_scriptura
Unlike Christianity, Islamic ‘prima scriptura’ i.e. hadith, or saying of the prophet is more centralized and certain because it endorsed by Allah himself. Allah said:
53:3 and neither does he ( Muhammad ) speak out of his own desire but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired.
• 69:44 And if he ( Muhammad ) had invented false sayings concerning Us, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:
Are the 1.created order, 2.traditions, 3.charismatic gifts, 4.mystical insight, 5.angelic visitations, 6.conscience, 7.common sense, 8.the views of experts, 9.the spirit of the times or 10.something else (??? ) in Christianity based on Jesus or God endorsement? Then, isn’t it better to check out your chaotic prima scriptura before criticizing the well centralized hadith my friend?
5. With regard to Quran only Muslim, for your information, they only form a very tiny dot in Muslim society and is not a legitimate group endorsed by mainstream Muslim. They don’t even enjoy co equal existence like Sunni-Shiite. Their integrity is highly questionable especially when their leader claimed that he was a god messenger apart from Prophet Muhammad, apparently against Quran it itself! ( Muhammad is the seal of the prophet , Quran 33:40 )
Wikipedia says about their leader: He ( Khalifa ) founded the religious group called United Submitters International (USI), a group which considers itself to be the true Islam, but prefers not to use the terms “Muslim” or “Islam,” instead using the English equivalents of the Arabic: “Submitter” or “Submission.” [1]
Submitters believe Khalifa was a messenger of God and refer to him as God’s messenger of the covenant as prophesied in the Quran and Bible, after which today’s “corrupted” religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam, will simply die out, and “Submission” will prevail.
His credibility and integrity are also doubted. Wiki says: In October, 1979, Khalifa was accused of sexual assault, sexual abuse, and sexual contact with a minor. The accuser, a 16-year-old-girl, testified at a hearing that Khalifa sexually molested her while recruiting her for research on the human aura. There was no evidence of intercourse found when the girl was examined at a local hospital. Justice of the Peace James P. West ruled there was probable cause to hold Khalifa for trial on the charges.[5]
Therefore the claim of this group is VOID and can’t be taken into consideration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa
6. Citing the existence of this tiny dissent group in Islam to disqualify Quran hadith relationship is like citing Klu Klux Klan (Christian white supremacist) to prove that Christianity is a racist religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
( Just for further reading, being a Malay, what do you think about Christian Identity which emphasize on colour?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
7. Unlike bible that relies mostly on unknown authors, hadith collection are painstakingly checked and verified and went through critical inspection using highly sophisticated science to maintain its authenticity through chain of narrator. Although the science not wholly in line in modern scientific methodology of verification, it is far more superior than Bible methodology in verifying canonical and apocrypha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_hadith
8. Quran hadith relationship is well defined and not overlapping like Bible ( word of God, word of Jesus, word of unknown and unendorsed author, canon, apocrypha etc) . Quran is divine and can be read during solat/ prayer, hadith is not and can’t be read during prayer.
Thank you
Syukri
to Syukri
You say:”..no one yet dare to comment my comparison between Quran and Bible dated August 31.” – Syukri 12 sept 2009 – 11:44 am. This is my reply.
When I read, your writing then, I thought you were just stating some facts.(e.g. Point 5. “Quran can be memorized wholly. There is million of Muslim who memorizes Quran all over the world.”- Syukri). I did not take those statements as an attempt by you to show that the Quran is superior to the Bible. I was not sure of your use of the word “incomparable “. But since you now say “..no one yet dare to comment ..”, I think I am not wrong to see those statements as a challenge.
To you first statement: ” Even though some people doubt that Quran is the word of God, but at least they all agree that it AUTHORED BY MUHAMMAD. The origin of Quran therefore is clearer and more certain than Bible. Unlike Quran, Bible is … NOT AUTHORED BY JESUS himself, but mostly penned by UNKNOWN authors.” – Syukri. (CAPITALS mine). I have already mentioned this before. What you present as a strength,that is: Muhammad (supposedly) wrote the Quran, can be seen as a weakness.”.John 5:31 (NIV)” If I (Jesus)testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.” That is the problem with Muhammad and the Quran. He is his own witness (No one else saw or heard the angel). No other witnesses. Bearing in mind Jesus’ own words, I must reject the Quran because Muhammad testify about himself(being “an apostle” of God). Even the law courts want more witnesses….(etc)” -’ truth..’sept 7, 12:18am.
To your second statement: “2. No one argues that Quran was revealed in Arabic, while the original language of Bible is still debated among scholars ( Aramaic, koine Greek, Hebrew ).”
Here I have no idea as to what you are trying to say. I have heard that the Bible was written in Hebrew(for Old Testament) and Greek(for New Testament) with some Aramaic quotations. Would you like to explain? In what way is the Quran superior because it was (supposedly) revealed in only one language?
To your third statement:”3. Under Caliph Uthman, Quran with various Arabic DIALECTS is united with Quraish Arabic DIALECT due to expansion of Islam to non-Arab. This lead to united VERSION of Quran to all Muslim then until now. Quran read in Singapore is the same with Quran read in Africa, ….” – Syukri. Again I do not see the point you are tryng to make to prove that the Quran is superior. You have caused questions to appear in my mind though.You say”This lead to united VERSION of Quran “- Syukri. Is this the Caliph Uthman VERSION of the Quran (like King James Version of the Bible). Was the sayings of the Quran present in different Arabic DIALECTS (orally transmitted,written on leaf and stone or whatever), and later compiled (and TRANSLATED because that is what DIALECTS suggest) and STANDARDIZED(read as EDITED). This would make the Quran no different from the Bible in some ways. I have read such claims about the books of the Bible being edited. Certainly there are Muslims who would say that Allah has miraculously preserved his original message to Muhammad ( through all the compilation related activities) but that is NOT an OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT ( Others may say that of Christians and the Bible as well, I know).
to be continued….
To Sukri
You say”For argument sake, let’s say that Greek is the original language of Bible …..The issue is, if I bring you the proof in Greek that support my argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping, are you going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
Say yes or no because I don’t want to waste my time researching to argue with someone who has no clear stand… ” – Sukri, Sept 12, 11:33 am.
The answer is NO and that is my clear stand. The answer should be obvious to all. “if I(Sukri) bring you(‘truth’) the proof in Greek that support my(Sukri) argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping,” the ONLY thing you proof, Sukri, is that the people at NIV made a mistake in the TRANSLATION.” A mistake in the TRANSLATION indicates a mistake made by the TRANSLATOR, not a flaw at its source (the New Testament in Greek -its original language).(Note: Your example is flawed because your thinking is flawed.) Why is that NOT CLEAR to you? (Besides, there are different English translations of the Quran. I will not say that the Quran is flawed because the translation contains mistakes.
You asked a stupid question.
To Syukri
……….continued from Sept, 14, 6.43pm
continuation of point no.3…”UNLIKE QURAN, Bible underwent INSPECTION and amendment throughout history to DETERMINE whether it is CANON ( recognized )..” – Syukri.
My reply to that is the Quran was compiled (like the Bible). Its compilation was completed in the reign of Caliph Uthman. It is a matter of faith for Muslims to believe that every thing that appears in the Quran is Allah’s revelation. I will not try to argue with that belief here (because Christians have that type of thinking about the Bible). However I wish to discuss one observation. It is regarding the Catholic and Protestant Bible.
You pointed correctly that the Protestant Bible has 66 books whereas the Catholic Bible has seventy-three. (refer to Syukri’s wiki article). This creates a problem as I see it.(Which I wonder whether you are aware). The problem is “Has God’s Message been lost” After all, there are two versions of the Bible and 2 major branches of Christianity (in Singapore, at least). But as I see it, the question as to whether ” God’s Message been lost” also arises in Islam. This is because of the presence of sects within Islam. It is no use saying you have one version of the Quran when there are different interpretations, schools of thought, sects, different sets of Hadith differnt goups find acceptable etc. Observers of Islam will say that to some extent the correct message has been lost.(Sects of Muslims and sects of Christians tend to think that their sect is more correct. How are we to make an objective judgement.
To your fourth statement:”4. Quran is studied and read in its original language ( Arabic ) by Muslims regardless of their nationalities, thus preserving its authenticity, while Bible underwent ongoing translation thus destroy its beauty in the original language.”- Syukri
This is a propaganda statement. My impression from hearing ex-Muslims (on internet)is that many Muslims do not understand Arabic well. Its learning becomes a burden rather than a joy. There is a danger of lost of meaning or message when reading a translation of the Bible or Quran but I suggest to you that reading without fully understanding(or not understanding at all) the Quran in its original language may be even worst.
To your fifth statement “5. Quran can be memorized wholly. There is million of Muslim who memorizes Quran all over the world…… NO ONE MEMORIZES THE WHOLE BIBLE ( do you? ), not even the Pope, because Christians do not agree what defines Bible! ( Which Bible is the real Bible? Chatholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Ethiopian? ).- Sukri. My reply is, “please me tell why this fact makes the Quran superior to the Bible?”. Also, do you expect all Christians to learn Greek and Hebrew to memorize the Bible (which is more than twice as long as the Quran) in its original language.”NO ONE MEMORIZES THE WHOLE BIBLE” because it is too long and in two foreign languages, NOT because Christians do not agree what defines Bible. (Catholics can always try to memorize Catholic Bible , Protestants doing like-wise if they wanted to.). This last statement (statement no.5) is another fine example of your lack of ability to think straight.
end of reply
Truth,
Did someone try to frame you by using your nick to reply on Sep 15th, 2009 at 12:32 am bro? If not, whats up with the interval between Sep 14th, 2009 at 6:43 pm reply and Sep 15th, 2009 at 6:17 am reply buddy? Commercial break?
I have got good impression of you being gracious till I saw your reply to Syukri on Sep 15th, 2009 at 12:32 am.
“You asked a stupid question.” – truth
If it wasn’t you, thats fine I can understand that. But if it was you, that is so not cool dude. So not cool.
To Eric
Thank you for your comment.
Regarding the statement ” You asked a stupid question” which I said to Syukri (Sep 15th, 2009 at 12:32 am.). I was only stating what I saw to be a fact. Perhaps Syukri will try to defend that statement to show that it is not a stupid question. It is his choice. Or he can admit that he made a mistake. This I think will be difficult to do as he appears to talk like an expert defender of Islam ( with his ability to look up the bible verses in French, Arabic, and Latin if I understand correctly). If he keeps on admitting that he made mistakes upon mistakes, nobody will take him seriously. It will also throw into question everything that he has ever written and everything that he believes in (that is Islam).
Perhaps you think I was being rude. It was not my intention. I do not want to get into a debate about that as that is not my focus.
Syukri also said-”I don’t want to waste my time ….. to argue with someone who has no clear stand and objective judgement.” -Syukri, Sept 12, 11:33 am. At a glance I thought he was accusing me of having no objective judgement. I did not think it worthwhile to dwell on that. Now as to whether I have objective judgement and whether Syukri ask stupid questions and makes nonsense statements, the readers can decide as it is there for all to see.
Please note: I will not be writing for a week because of work reasons. Peace. Out.
Hi Truth,
Cool bro. Thanks for your reply and explanations regarding my query on whether if someone else was using your nick to reply.
Forget about the consistency of you addressing Syukri as…
SUKRI through out in these posts
Sep 6th, 2009 at 6:18 am,
Sep 10th, 2009 at 7:44 pm,
Sep 13th, 2009 at 6:14 am,
Sep 15th, 2009 at 12:32 am.
AND
SYUKRI through out in these posts
Sep 7th, 2009 at 5:11 am,
Sep 12th, 2009 at 4:00 am,
Sep 14th, 2009 at 6:43 pm,
Sep 15th, 2009 at 6:17 am,
Sep 16th, 2009 at 1:18 am.
Because You sure have said it right bro when you said:
“the readers can decide as it is there for all to see.” – “Truth”
I sure am very “convinced” now buddy that there is only “one” of you writing the replies. For the Truth stands out clear from Error – Qur’an 2:256
Take care there as always bro. Peace to you two now, I mean too.
To Eric
FYI – I have not left for work yet.
What are you suggesting by the way I write Syukri’s name. Have you not heard of the term “typo”.
(I wish to apologise to Syukri, for not being more careful about the way I spell his name. But that is not related to what I have been writing.).
I guess I also must apologise to Jesus as I referred to him as the “son” (note the small letter ‘s’ in my nickname ‘truth and light from the son’ heading on 12th Sept 4am as compared to the way I wrote my nickname the rest of the time(hopefully) i.e. -’truth and light from the Son’ – Son spelled with a big S. I forgot to give Jesus the respect he deserves and he is God.
What you are trying to do Eric is to suggest something here where there is no issue, just as in your exchange with me about the stone of Jesus’ tomb. You can believe that I ‘truth and light from the Son’ is two persons actually if you want to. I cannot stop you.
Is it possible you came to suspect that I am actually two persons because of the “commercial break” you referred to (Eric’s post Sept 15, 1205pm). I did not want to explain why that happened as I felt it was not important. I will do so now.
I have given short replies to people over the internet. I can do this quickly. But my attempt to reply to Syukri was too long that day to finish all of it in one sitting. It did not occur to me to save my writing in a word document as I had never done that before for blogs (but have since discovered). Before that day of the “commercial break”, all my writing was done in that box below the words ‘LEAVE A REPLY’ in this blog site and posted immediately. I am not as good with the computer as you. You will notice that I do not use SMILING FACES as you do as I do not know how to make them appear.
As to why I posted a new topic to Syukri while one was still hanging, it is because I felt that the new topic was even more important than the one which was still” hanging.” I realise now that it broke the continuity of my writing and I apologise to all for that. I believe that objective persons will believe that what I say actually happened. It is a perfectly logical explanation.(And shows that I can be a bit of a scatter- brain at times.)
Also Eric, whether I am one or two persons does not affect the truth of all that I have written. That is what you have to consider.
Lastly, this “commercial – break” incident is like what happens in the Bible. We may not have all the answers to issues (like apparent contradictions) but there is a perfectly logical explanation. So please, Eric , do not ASSume I am two persons or ASSume things about the Bible. You will make an ASS of yourself ( as you shared with me earlier). Peace. Out
Hi again “truth”,
“So please, Eric , do not ASSume I am two persons…” – “Truth
I never assumed buddy. Unlike you whom have used the word ASS-U-me directly, I’ve just only asked.
Anyways my friend, a typo is defined as:
“typographical error
n. A mistake in printing, typesetting, or typing, especially one caused by striking an incorrect key on a keyboard.” – http://www.thefreedictionary.com/typographical error
hmmm…I am not assuming here now buddy but ah, just how often can a striking of an incorrect key on a keyboard occur for just a simple name? More than 9 times? Just asking bro
(OH, I just did the SMILING FACES thingy again there 
and again 
and again 
)
No worries dude, just like how you have correctly said:
“the readers can decide as it is there for all to see.” – “Truth”
We’ll leave it up to the readers to see now ya. Peace. Out to you two now. Oops, oh how careless of me, typo again. I mean out to you too now.
To Truth,
The discussion has became lengthy and overlapping. Therefore I would like to put the pieces together as below:
Pro Christ said:
Bible is easy to read.
Eric asked:
If that is so, can you point out to me where exactly in the bible did Jesus says to worship him?
On Sep 8th, Truth said:
“If Jesus is God, then we are to worship him.(I would think this is implied).So whether any verse exist in the New Testament in which Jesus claims ” Worship me” or not, becomes irrelevant if it is established that Jesus is God.” Verses exist that point to Jesus being God and of people worshiping him (e.g. Matthew 28:9 ” They came to him…. and worshiped him”)
On Sep 8th, I refuted his claim by showing translation from various Bible showing that the translation flawed. ( worship is actually bowing, but deceptively changed to suit trinitarian belief ) to show inconsistency in Bible Translation.
On Sep 12th, Truth defended Trinity, assumed that there was error in translation and demanded the proof be taken from Greek Bible, not translation:
His demand as follow: My response, if you care to consider is this:- I (a non- scholar of the Bible) quoted a verse of only one English TRANSLATION of the Bible(NIV version) that was made after the year 1970.
For the sake of discussion, let us assume that there was an error in the translation. For your information, the worship of Jesus DID NOT begin after 1970. The major beliefs of main-stream Christianity (the Trinity, The death of Jesus on the cross for the sins of the world, his Rising from the dead, etc…) were already established by the time of the appearance of Islam around the year 600 A.D.(roughly) and even before that. Even the Quran indicates that – “Say not “Trinity” from 4:171 (from Syukri’s comment.). I do not believe that core Christian beliefs arose from ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS or other translations for that matter. I AM NOT EVEN SURE that they arose from the Greek (Greek being the original language.) But would it not be more LOGICAL to assume that the GREEK (the original language) is the SOURCE of Christian beliefs rather than any translation. So I find your statement -”different translations of Matthew 28:9 and later lead to different understanding? ( bowing become adoration, then become worship, and the word worship is unscrupulously used to justify divinity of Jesus )?” – Syukri -, I find your statement nonsensical and mischievous.
Truth emphasized again the importance of Greek Bible, not translation, he ‘challenged’ me to look into Greek ( perhaps he think that I can’t do it ) :
He said: Perhaps YOU WOULD LIKE TO EXPLAIN how the core Christian ideas are found in the Greek manuscripts ( before they were translated to English). There are experts on the Greek language as you know, I am sure.
Eric advised Truth not to do a lot of assumption in faith:
Eric said:Don’t assume when you are not sure buddy, this is suppose to be the Word of God we are talking about here. Be more certain and concrete with proof. For you should know very well, if your assumptions are wrong and we believed you, ASSUME will only means that…it’ll make an ASS out of yoU and ME bro. Just my two cents
Truth acknowledged Eric:
Truth said:Thanks for your words of caution regarding my writing on Sept. 12 2009, 4am.My focus then was, firstly, to show that CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEF ARE FOUND IN THE GREEK MANUSCRIPTS of the NEW TESTAMENT before any English translation was made; which means the idea or suggestion that “Core Christian beliefs arose from wrong translations” is wrong.(Please also consider this as a reply to ‘Si Kitul – Sept 8, 4:38pm -Example of Bible translation.)
Truth contradicted his statement above ( compare the capital, which is mine )
Truth said:It was not my intention to say from where the Core Christian beliefs came but rather to show from where they did not come. I expressed this in the way that I thought best at the time and I hope all readers get the point.( I WAS NOT TRYING TO TEACH THAT CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEF CAME FROM THE GREEK MANUSCRIPT but to show that the beliefs are present there.)
My comment: Truth said the core christian belief are from Greek manuscript, not English translations, then changed his mind by saying that he is not trying to teach that core christian belief came from the Greek manuscript.
I am wondering:
1. If not from Greek manuscript,WHERE the core christian belief came from then ?
2. He tried to show that the beliefs are present there. Where?
Finally, I’m tired of this flip flop, then I post him this challenge since he is so adamant with his Greek manuscript:
I said: For argument sake, let’s say that Greek is the original language of Bible …The issue is, if I bring you the proof in Greek that support my argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping, are you going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
Truth pissed of and said:
The answer is NO and that is my clear stand. The answer should be obvious to all. “if I(Sukri) bring you(’truth’) the proof in Greek that support my(Sukri) argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping,” the ONLY thing you proof, Sukri, is that the people at NIV made a mistake in the TRANSLATION.” A mistake in the TRANSLATION indicates a mistake made by the TRANSLATOR, not a flaw at its source (the New Testament in Greek -its original language).(Note: Your example is flawed because your thinking is flawed.) Why is that NOT CLEAR to you? (Besides, there are different English translations of the Quran. I will not say that the Quran is flawed because the translation contains mistakes.
You asked a stupid question.
The summary is:
1.Pro Christ said Bible is easy to read.
2.Eric asked proof from Bible stating that Jesus ask to be worshiped if Bible is indeed easy to read.
3.Truth brought Matthew 28:9 to show some people did ‘worship’ Jesus and Jesus did not stop them to.
4. I brought proof from different translations that the word is actually bowing, not worship. Therefore nullify his proof the divinity of Jesus in this verses.
5.Truth said that the translations are in English translated from the ‘original’ Bible in Greek. Therefore the proof must come from Greek, not translations.
6. Since he demanded the proof from Greek, I NATURALLY asked him : If I bring proof that Greek Bible stated that the word is indeed ‘bowing’,is he going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
7.Truth say NO and accused me asking stupid question. But he admitted that ‘ the people at NIV made a mistake in the TRANSLATION.” A mistake in the TRANSLATION indicates a mistake made by the TRANSLATOR.’
My comment
That exactly what I want Truth to admit. Most of the Bible are translated, and they consider translated Bible as HOLY BIBLE. Translated Bible are more used worldwide than Greek Bible. While translated Quran is not considered as Quran, and when Quran is translated, the original must be put side by side.
Unlike Quran, Bible is at the mercy of translator. Bible translations have been made into 2,479 languages, one of the two Testaments in 1,168 languages, and the full (Protestant Canon) Bible in 451 languages. And imagine people reading Bible which is prone to mistakes of translation by translators.
Truth, how are you can be sure that you are reading the real word of ‘god’? Seems you are the one who gave stupid answer.
Allah precisely said about this matter:
2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands ( translators ?? ), and then say:”This is from God,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
Syukri
Salam to all,
Below are the verses in Greek Bible to show that Bible(s) has been changed unscrupulously. Bear in mind that translated Bible is considered as Bible itself, like AL KITAB in Bahasa Indonesia, INJIL in Arabic and THE HOLY BIBLE in English. They don’t state at the cover of the book : ‘Terjemahan’ Al Kitab, ‘Tarjamatul Injil’,or ‘Translation of the Holy Bible’.
) ??? ????|_ ?????|? ??|?|???|?|?|? ???|??? ?????|_? ????|???. ?? ?? ???????|???|?? ?|?????|??|? ???|?? ???? ???|?? ??? ????|?|????|??|? ???|?.
????????? (proskune? 4352)
1. worship [verb] -ed, -eth, -ing
to crouch, crawl, or fawn, like a dog at his master’s feet; hence, to prostrate one’s self, after the eastern custom, to do reverence or homage to any one, by kneeling or prostrating one’s self before him; (The Greek translation of the OT everywhere for ??????, to bow down, to prostrate one’s self in reverence.) Used therefore of the act of worship.
(a) with ??????? (en?pion 1799) in the presence of, before.
http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
Syukri
Salam,
I would like to thank all of you, supporter and opponent alike for your contribution, especially Eric. Also Truth and his friends for their participation. One thing that we share in common is ‘we believe in Allah/ God’, unlike atheist.
I won’t be writing for a few weeks to focus on prayer and Quran ( where I got the inspiration from )during last 10 days of Ramadhan and after that I will celebrate Eid by visiting relatives.
I wish all of you:
SELAMAT HARI RAYA, MAAF ZAHIR BATIN
.
Syukri
Hi Syukri,
Good posts you have there bro. I enjoyed all of them. Especially the last one
“One thing that we share in common is ‘we believe in Allah/ God’, unlike atheist.” -Syukri
I share the same sentiments as you too bro.
To Truth and friends,
you guys have been great. This is sincerely from me now, thanks for the replies that you guys gave. Really appreciate that.
Wishing you Syukri and all who celebrate this festive season a SELAMAT HARI RAYA, MAAF ZAHIR BATIN. And to Truth and friends, Happy holidays to you guys. I’ll be taking my leave too here. Its gonna be a looong weekend and I sure am not gonna miss it! Take care as always guys.
Hello all,
I am back after one busy week.
I have read Syukri’s comments (Sept 16th 2009)and summary of postings by myself, Christ believer, Eric and Syukri. I feel that it is not necessary for me to respond. Besides, Syukri says he will be away for a few weeks. But I suggest that all readers read the actual postings (starting from Sept 6, 2009) as the postings are an accurate record of all that took place rather than one possibly bias’s person’s perception(summary) of events.
I wish, today, to highlight a question that Syukri asked: – “I am wondering:
1. If not from Greek manuscript,WHERE the core christian belief came from then ?” – Syukri -(Sept 16th, 2009). That is a question that I hope Muslims consider to arrive at CERTAIN and DEFINITE ANSWERS. I stated that CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS are found in the Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament(the original language). Just because they are found there does not mean that the beliefs originated from there. Obviously, one possibility of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS as Christians have today. So these writers were just writing down what was passed down to them from Jesus himself. That is to say, the CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS (the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus, His death for the sins of the world,his rising from the dead, etc..) has remain unchanged from the beginning, that is from Christ himself. This implies that Christians (Catholics and Protestants) are more correct despite their differences and Islam is not correct.This is one possibilility that Muslims will want to reject as it leads to the conclusion that Islam is false.
I hope Muslims will try to answer this questions with CERTAIN and DEFINITE ANSWERS for themselves (at least) because from my observation, there seems to be a lot of UNCERTAINTY within Islam. For example,
1) Syukri says “the original language of Bible is still debated among scholars ( Aramaic, koine Greek, Hebrew )” – August 31st 2009. I wonder if this statement was made by Syukri to suggest in people’s minds the possibility that the New Testament was originally in another language but the message was changed when it was translated into Greek. This is a CERTAIN and DEFINITE SPECULATION. No certainty.
2) All Christians will, without a doubt and in complete agreement, say that Jesus did miracles and agree on the records of miracles that Jesus did (as recorded in the New Testament). I do not believe all Muslims will, with certainty, say that Muhammad did miracles.(Quran-only Muslims will not be able to accept the miracles of Muhammad in the Hadith because they reject the Hadith).Shia Muslims believe in a different set of Hadith from the Sunnis so possibly arriving at a different set of miracles of Muhammad; therefore no complete agreement on the miracles of Muhammad or even that he did any. No certainty.
3) Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on on the cross because the Quran says so. However there is no universally accepted view (as far as I know) as to what happened to Jesus if Jesus did not die on the cross. I have heard Islamic theories that Jesus was miraculously replaced by Judas Iscariot(the traitor) at the last minute. Also another Islamic idea states that Jesus only fainted on the cross and later revived in the tomb. These, again, are speculation. No certainty.
4) There also seems to be no certainty within the Quran over some statements.For example: I hear it quoted from the Quran that THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION. I have come to understand that some Muslims view this as a statement of religious freedom: meaning that a Muslim can choose to leave Islam if he feels that Islam is not true. However I have heard it said that the last mentioned verse has been abrogated(cancelled and replaced) by later verses. Believing this some groups within Islam will not allow religious freedom: that is, once born a Muslim, you cannot leave it. I have heard it said that at least half of all the verses in the Quran have been abrogated. Is there any certainty within all of Islam as to which verses in the Quran are still valid and have not been abrogated. No certainty, as I see it.
5) As far as I can tell there also seems to be no sense of certainty for the Muslim to know whether a Muslim has done enough good works to cancel out his sins. There is no assurance of heaven within Islam(“you just hope for it.” “Christ Believer’ -Sept 8, 2009) This, I believe, is the main theme in the writing of ‘Christ Believer’ -Sept 8, 2009. I suggest that everyone read that post because that is how I feel too and I cannot say it any better.
Just sharing my observation. Any comments.
In His Service,
truth and light from the Son
Hey ya “Truth”! Nice to see you again buddy,
“That is a question that I hope Muslims consider to arrive at CERTAIN and DEFINITE ANSWERS” – ‘truth’
My oh my, what a very bold and certain statement you’ve got there buddy. Then you have to say this:
“OBVIOUSLY, ONE POSSIBILITY of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS as Christians have today.” – ‘truth’
One possibility? Possibility buddy? With an Obviously in front of it some more. Well, for someone who is telling other people to look for certainty, you are full of uncertainty yourself aren’t you my friend? Where is the definite answer for this one? No possibilities please. Just one concrete CERTAIN and DEFINITE answer. Provide one please.
Just sharing my observation too since you’ve asked for comments.
Thanks buddy.
Dear Syukri,
I apologize for the late reply. It had been a little bit busy actually. To answer to your question, ( 5th Aug ) I can’t think of the best way to explain to you on anything else but the Bible as it is the Book which is directly to the issues.
You said that I did not reply Norman’s questions directly to what he wanted to know. I think the answer is within him and God. I choose not to answer him directly but to let him think the otherwise. The answer is within him. I believed his question is more on the claims by the other religions that their god’s also in heaven, which, that I also must believe in the other god’s because they are also in heaven, according to other religions belief. To me, what I mentioned to him is more on facts on the history of Jesus and not something that had been created by men’s illusion on their belief.
You did questioning me about divinity of Jesus. “You did not address your first proof about divinity of Jesus because he is in heaven! ( Syukri )
The divinity of Jesus, which, according to the Bible, is enough for me to believed. There are many-many times Jesus mention His own divinity. Now let us look into the words and answers to some of our question about His divinity that Jesus used when He met with people during His time on earth. Let me start with this questions.
1. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have the authority to forgive sins except God Himself? NO! LUKE 7: (48) And He said to her, your sins are forgiven! (49) Then those who were at table with Him began to say among themselves, Who is this Who even forgives sins? (50) But Jesus said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go (enter) into peace. And in MARK 2: (5) And when Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralyzed man, son, your sins are forgiven [that is, the penalty is remitted, the sense of guilt removed, and you are made upright and in right standing with God]. Who can forgive sins = God, Jesus can forgive their sins, so Who is Jesus = God. No one ever willing to say that if they are not God.
2. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have to say that he’s the only way to go to heaven if he is just human except God Himself? NO! JOHN 14: (6) Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. Oh men! You know…there’s so many people can tell and teaches us this and that, about peace, about laws, about life on earth, about freedom, about religious things. So many people. So many prophets, so many scholars, but no one dare to say that what Jesus ever said. My goodness me.
3. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have ever conquered every single day and controls everything under his authority if not God Himself? NO! LUKE 6: (5) And He said to them, The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.
4. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have ever been said, that who ever believed in that particular name, will be saved except the name of God? NO! JOHN 3: (16) For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Beside other things that make me believed, this is more than enough for me to believe in Jesus. This all minus His teaching about love and forgiveness which is very crucial for all human kinds these days to practice love and forgiveness, in my family, community, to my country and to the world…this is a complete package for me to go to heaven.
Even if we assumed that all these claims that Jesus said is indicated wrongly about himself and is a blasphemy to God’s name, these, as we all know will make Him a sinner and liar. And surely He will not be so special and has no place in heaven.
Lets move on the topic you mention in Matthew 10: 24 “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword”, I still don’t know why you come into that misleading conclusions about the verse. If you read the whole chapter, I think kindergarten pupils also can understand that verse. It is true that Jesus said that because according to the history, it does happen but to the opposite.
Never in Jesus living history, that He Himself carries a weapon or sword or gathered His followers and declared wars upon others. Never! But do you understand when He say that He brings weapon and sword is because He knew that many times people in the family and community are fighting even killing their own supposedly beloved family members just because they wanted to know Jesus and become a Christian.
If you happen to see those Christians doing that, because their family members left for other religions, it is out of a personal anger and not because the Bible asking them to do that. How about the teaching of the Quran? It’s still happen until today especially in the Muslim country. I am not intended to offence, but this is the reality. This is what Jesus is telling us. In fact, Bible teaches us in EPHESIAN 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
I will answer the rest of you topics in the near future because I am leaving the office soon. Hope that what I’ve written here will open our spiritual eyes that we may have the truth that leads us into everlasting life. God bless you and to all readers too.
Julian
Hi Julian,
Well done dude. Well structured post you have there. I get your points too. But that doesn’t mean I totally agree with them. I have comments on them that I would like to voice out but that’ll just make the current discussion in progress, which is “The Origin Of The Core Christian Beliefs”, a great big heap of mess. Nevertheless, I have just two that I would like to hear from your opinion.
As you know very well, Jesus spoke in parables as how you demonstrated in your point when you told Syukri about what was meant when Jesus said he brought a sword in Matthew 10:34
With that in mind, why can’t you apply that same lesson you taught Syukri to JOHN 14:6 too? You are being selective here my friend. Double standard. As how you put it, even kindergarten pupils can see that, right?
Last but not the least, I have just one more that I would like to hear your opinion on. Its this, your point no.3 :
“3. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have ever conquered every single day and controls everything under his authority if not God Himself? NO! LUKE 6: (5) And He said to them, The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” – Julian
You’ve tried to imply with Luke 6:5 as proof of Jesus’ divinity.
“…The Son of Man is Lord…” – Luke 6:5
How certain are you my friend, since Jesus love to speak in parables, that the term Lord is not just a title or something else? As we know, we don’t see LORD LOUIS MOUNTBATTEN as God don’t we? Along with it the other LORDS that we came to know about.
Besides, if Jesus meant to say that he is god with that term Lord, why then did Paul wrote to the Ephesians as such:
“I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[a] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.” – Ephesians 1:17
Its says “the God of our LORD Jesus Christ” buddy. Meaning Lord Jesus Christ has a God. God has no god my friend. Its in your Bible, go read Isaiah 44:6,8.
Explain please.
Thanks dude for your kind attention.
to truth and light from the Son,
Stop commenting about our faith if you are not sure or else you are only disclosing your inconsistency, embarrassing yourself and tarnishing the image of christianity.
Hi Eric,
Thanks for your post and comments bro. As to continue to our discussions, I will try to answer to your few questions. You did says, “As you know very well, Jesus spoke in parables as how you demonstrated in your point when you told Syukri about what was meant when Jesus said he brought a sword in Matthew 10:34” (Eric.)
Well on this, we all agreed that it is a parable. But do you think that John 14:6 is a parable. No, it is not! This is in fact a declaration. This is proclamations. I can say that because the two statements had different points. When Jesus talks about the sword, He never carries one. When He talks about separation, He preaches about love and unity. In fact He hates separation. That is parable.
My friend, I am not double standard. What the point I am doing that? What the point of being someone believing and protecting something which is meaningless or if it is useless? If my point is not clear to you, at least it is clear to me and that is not what I want it to be but it’s there even if I don’t believe. If you say that I am double standard or selective, first, you must declare that the Bible is wrong. Our story will end here. If not, as I always said, I answered those questions according to the Bible.
To your second question, you ask me “How certain are you my friend, since Jesus love to speak in parables, that the term Lord is not just a title or something else? As we know, we don’t see LORD LOUIS MOUNTBATTEN as God don’t we? Along with it the other LORDS that we came to know about” ( Eric )
Who is lord Louis Mountbatten and who is Lord Jesus? Can’t you make any different of the two? You know what? They might have the same title but they are different person, just like the heaven and earth. The two Lords had different characters. They have two different missions in their life. One is to destroy enemy lives and the other One is saving the world from hell! What Lord Jesus did on earth is to make sure people like you and I go to heaven and not to hell! You can become lord of anything else but Jesus become Lords of our salvations. That’s the most important. Yes you can call Louis Mountbatten lord but lord of what!? Just lord of war? I am not interested in this small-small lords, I am talking about the LORD that save the world. He is The LORD of all lords and KING of all kings. And His name is JESUS.
To your next question, first, I want to ask you. Let say you just walk alone and God revealed Himself to you in the human form, would you will believed in Him if He say “hi Eric, I Am your God, would you like to come with Me”? What will be your first thought? I think you will say, “I don’t think He is God because He is no different as I am”.
What kind of picture you put into your mind about God? Do you picture Him as God of limited edition or God that is above all? But what is the fact on that? Even if you don’t believe, it can’t change the fact that He is God that can do everything under His will and His love towards us.
God almighty can do anything without limit and we can’t limit God. But that I understand because people like you will only think that God never come to the world to be closer to you and He only exists in heaven. Look at us from far away. Do you think God can’t come closer to you? Which one do you think more easy. For the king to come to you or for you to go to the king? That’s why even if you worship Him, you will feel that He is very far away, and you will stuck with all the rules that has been set for the hope that it will honor God. But what good things that we do can match the perfection of our God, or His righteousness, or His holiness to make us worthy of heaven? If we compare to the perfection of God, none will match that. So how are we going to know we can go to heaven? Only by His grace we are saved.
But how can we sure how much grace that we have and how much God really loves us. Should we believe God without His proof? Without any proof, I can say that we’re having a blind faith. The perfect proof of that love is when Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins. That is not the love of man but the love of God. Men are willing to die for something or somebody they loved but they are not willing to die for their enemy or sinners like us.
As you talk about Isaiah, well, looks like you’re very familiar with the Bible verses or actually you took it from other resources. Anyway, that’s not important. Let me tell you this once and foremost. All Christian, including I myself, believed in only ONE God. There’s only ONE God. The same God that created the heaven and earth, the same God that spoke in Isaiah is the same God that spoke in John 14:6.
Let me illustrate this to you and I hope it will help you to understand more. Ok, let me put it like this. If you use 3 in 1 shampoo, do you know from that 1 shampoo will gives you 3 different treatments?
First element is to nourishing your hair
Second element is tot cleansing your hair
Third element is to protect your hair.
So even it’s has three elements, but it’s come from 1 source. You only have one shampoo! That’s how we look at ONE God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. It’s 3 in1.
John 1: (1) IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. (2) He was present originally with God. (3) All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being. (4) In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men. (5) And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it.
I don’t expect you to agree with me but at least we can share this faith. My hope is that we will meet in heaven one day. God loves and bless you.
Julian
Hi Julian,
“My hope is that we will meet in heaven one day. God loves and bless you.” – Julian
Thanks for the prayers and blessings bro. I really appreciate that.
And thanks also for the kind reply. Believe it or not, I read it from top to bottom and bottom to top. I particularly like the one with the 3 in 1 shampoo illustration thingy. I can almost imagined how it would appear on TV if it was a TV commercial. It can go something like this: The 3 in 1 God religion, come get your Free salvation here today! terms and conditions apply. Sorry buddy, I just can’t help it. But I do get your point there even though, again, I don’t agree with them.
“As you talk about Isaiah, well, looks like you’re very familiar with the Bible verses or actually you took it from other resources.” – Julian
Awww come on…don’t be silly. You know what Julian? I have a feeling that you did not read all the comments that were ever posted here. Or did you my friend? Selectively? Because if you did, that sentence of yours will just be unnecessary.
Anyway, that’s not important. Right? Now put that aside. Guess what now buddy? Despite the lengthy explanation you gave and also the unnecessary questioning of my knowledge in the existence of that verse in Isaiah. I can’t seem to find, anywhere in your reply, you trying to address my question regarding on why Paul wrote to the Ephesians as such in Ephesians 1:17 if Jesus is god. I read and re-read about 3 times to be very sure that I did not miss it but it is just not there! It is remarkable that you totally missed it buddy because my quote on Isaiah (which was highlighted by you) came right after that. Let me refresh your memory in case you missed out.
““I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[a] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.” – Ephesians 1:17
Its says “the God of our LORD Jesus Christ” buddy. Meaning Lord Jesus Christ has a God. God has no god my friend. Its in your Bible, go read Isaiah 44:6,8.” – Eric
Here is a clear cut message that says your Lord Jesus Christ has a God. If he has a God, he can’t be God, my friend. Because like I have pointed out, God has no god. You remained silence on this one. Or, were you trying to save this for another day? If it is, your another day can be now. Care to share your views on this one buddy?
Thanks for sharing.
To Eric
Thank you for your comment (dated sept26, 6:56pm)
You quoted me”“OBVIOUSLY, ONE POSSIBILITY of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS as Christians have today.” – ‘truth’ Sept 24.
Then you go on to say”Well, for someone who is telling other people to look for certainty, you are full of uncertainty yourself aren’t you my friend? Where is the definite answer for this one?
No possibilities please.”.
My purpose in using the word “POSSIBILITY” with regards to the Christian beliefs origins (and its connection with the Greek New Testament) is for readers (including Muslim readers) to consider. For the Christian, it is a certainty that the Greek New Testament is an accurate record of the beliefs of the earliest followers of Jesus ( including Peter, Paul and James). I do not now wish to attempt to provide proofs that the Bible is accurate and is the Word of God as this task has been more ably done by Christian web-sites (such as – “Answering Islam”). I only highlighted this as a possibility for Muslims to consider; a possibility that they must consider if they want to be OBJECTIVE (i.e. without bias). Not to consider this possibility indicates a closed mind; a mind, perhaps, afraid of what it may discover. A person who is truly a truth- seeker ( and not a blind follower of Islam) must consider this possibility.
I have more things to write about but I am too busy with work matters. I shall write again if the Lord allows.
To truth,
You said: Obviously, one possibility of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS as Christians have today. So these writers were just writing down what was passed down to them from Jesus himself.
My answer:
1.First of all, please don’t consider possibility as a goodwill offer. If I say to you: there 1 is a possibility that you may go to heaven if you accept Islam’, will you duly accept it? Or if you are judge, will you pass a verdict based of possibility? If you are certain, you will never offer a possibility for such an important matter, aren’t you? But you are not certain.
2.I realize that using possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion, anonymous, traditionally been assigned; is common by Christian to prove their claims. This is not the way to discuss about God.
3. However,that’s is no surprise for those who say that God is one but exist in 3. They just don’t bother to conform with the basic layman logic, yet unashamedly accuse people who resist their ‘illogical logic’ as closed mind, blind follower, not a truth seeker etc.
4.Now, let’s go to ‘the person writing the books in the New Testament’. First is Paul. I want to ask you,What is his authority to write the Bible? Did Jesus approve him in front of his other apostle? Or just because he said so? Then, who are other witnesses to confirm that? Or you are the type who will believe anybody who claimed that he saw Jesus?
Let’s look at Corinthians 7:40 (New International Version)
40In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I THIND that I too have the Spirit of God.
Paul showed absolutely NO CONFIDENCE and no AUTHORITY in his claims about receiving Divine Revelations. When he said “I think I have the Spirit of GOD in me,” that statement virtually blew away all of his credibility as a true Prophet, because what kind of a delusional and confused person was he? And what “spirit” was really inspiring him? Or was he just having plain delusions?
Now, see the irrefutable proof about Paul never was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Let us first look at what Paul said and then compare them to Jesus’ commands:
1 Corinthians 7:25-28
25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.
26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are.
27 Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife.
28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
There are few important points to mention:
1- Paul never met Jesus in person while Jesus was on earth. Paul became a “prophet” by claiming that Jesus appeared to him on his way to Damascus.
2- The Jewish Law allows for a man to divorce his wife if she is not pleasing to him. Matthew 19:8 below, further confirms that.
3- Paul was a Jew, and from his writings he seemed to be very knowledgeable about the Jewish Law.
4- Paul, who never met Jesus, was obviously unaware of the fact that Jesus forbade divorce between the husband and the wife, except in the case of adultery!
5. Paul abrogated law of OT ( circumcision, eating pig etc as if he is greater than Jesus or in same level with Jesus; a god )
Paul’s words 1 Corinthians 7:27 exposed him to be a liar, because if the Holy Spirit was truly inspiring him, then he would not have uttered such statement! Paul, the Jew, was talking about divorce in general and loosely (with no specifics and no conditions). Yes, the Jewish Law allows divorce between ordinary couples, but Jesus forbade it! In Christianity, divorce between ordinary couples, whom neither one of them committed any major sin against the other, is strictly forbidden, and Paul’s general advise for his followers to not seek a divorce makes it clear that he was ignorant of what Jesus. The Holy Spirit would’ve inspired Paul to be speak only about the folks who’s spouses have cheated on them to not get divorced from them, which I have no idea how this would’ve helped his followers anyway! Paul was rather speaking in general terms – in the two parts of 1 Corinthians 7:27:
The same case goes to other author of Bible. For example, the Gospel according to Matthew. You always talk about being objective. Let’s prove one! I brought all these prove from christian sources itself! This gospel is the oldest and supposedly the most original one in the New Testament!
“The unknown author, whom we shall continue to call Matthew FOR THE SAKE OF CONVENIENCE, drew no only up the Gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, sayings of Jesus) not found in Mk that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1008)”
“As for the place where the gospel was composed, a PLAUSIBLE SUGGESTION is that it was Antioch, the capital of the Roman province of Syria. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1009)”
So we clearly see, both the author or authors and the place of composition of the “Gospel of Matthew” are UNKNOWN.
“Although the book is ANONYMOUS, apart from the ancient heading “According to Mark” in manuscripts, it has traditionally been assigned to John Mark, in whose mother’s house (at Jerusalem) Christians assembled. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1064)”
“Although there is NO DIRECT INTERNAL EVIDENCE of AUTHORSHIP, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church that this Gospel was written by John Mark. (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1488)”
“Traditionally, the gospel is said to have been written shortly before A.D. 70 in Rome, at a time of impending persecution and when destruction loomed over Jerusalem. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1064)”
“SERIOUS DOUBTS exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes [1], page 1528)”
“This verse, which reads, “But if you do not forgive, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your transgressions,” is omitted in the best manuscripts. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1081)”
“This passage, termed the Longer Ending to the Marcan gospel by comparison with a much briefer conclusion found in some less important manuscripts, has traditionally been accepted as a canonical part of the gospel and was defined as such by the Council of Trent. Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1088)”
So, in reality, we don’t really know whether Mark was the sole author of this Gospel or not, nor do we know when and where the “gospel” was even written. And since The New Testament wasn’t even documented on paper until 150-300 years (depending on what Christian you talk to) after Jesus, then how are we to know for sure that the current “Gospel of Mark” wasn’t written by some pro of Mark?
Now my concern to this corruption and ‘answer-the-problem-away’ statement is that what are those so-called ”
1.reliable early manuscript(s)”
2. “ancient witnesses”
3. ‘authors of Bible?
The below text from Biblegateway online reads: “The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16:9-20;&version=NIV;
Allah clearly tells about this matter:
“Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against God, or saith, “I have received inspiration,” when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, “I can reveal the like of what God hath revealed”? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! – the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),”Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against God, and scornfully to reject of His signs!” (The Noble Quran, 6:93)”
therefore, the CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEF is still UNCERTAIN and your POSSIBILITY is IMPOSSIBLE.
P/S :I like this website and recommend it to readers.
http://www.answering-christianity.com
I will answer you about the uncertainty is Islam as you claimed later.
thank you.
Salam,
Dear Talib. Are you Muslim? I’m about to address Truth for that matter. Thanks anyway.
Syukri
Hi Talib,
“1.First of all, please don’t consider possibility as a goodwill offer. If I say to you: there 1 is a possibility that you may go to heaven if you accept Islam’, will you duly accept it? Or if you are judge, will you pass a verdict based of possibility? If you are certain, you will never offer a possibility for such an important matter, aren’t you? But you are not certain.” – Talib
Nice. Spot on bro. That was what I’ve meant but you have said it better. Thanks for the clarity in your words. Your reply is just fantastic.
Hi ‘truth’,
“3. However,that’s is no surprise for those who say that God is one but exist in 3. They just don’t bother to conform with the basic layman logic, yet unashamedly accuse people who resist their ‘illogical logic’ as closed mind, blind follower, not a truth seeker etc.” – Talib
That sure reflects back on you to see who exactly is the closed minded blind follower now buddy. I hope you read Talib’s latest reply from beginning till end. And I recommend the readers to do the same thing too with an opened unbiased logical mind.
Take care now.
To Talib
Thank you for your comments.
You have written a lot. I feel moved, at this point in time, to address one issue in your writing. You said”4.Now, let’s go to ‘the person writing the books in the New Testament’. First is Paul. I want to ask you,What is his authority to write the Bible? Did Jesus approve him in front of his other apostle? Or just because he said so? Then, who are other witnesses to confirm that?”- Talib Oct 3rd. You also add “1- Paul never met Jesus in person while Jesus was on earth. Paul became a “prophet” by claiming that Jesus appeared to him on his way to Damascus.” and “5. Paul abrogated law of OT ( circumcision, eating pig etc as if he is greater than Jesus or in same level with Jesus; a god )
My reply is as follows: I wish to share with you one Bible verse and the explanation of one Christian writer that I remember. The verse is 2 Peter 3:15-16 (NIV)-”..Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him… His letters contain things that ..ignorant and unstable people distort,as they do the other Scriptures…”. Rules of language dictates that Saint Peter is saying Paul’s writings is Scripture( guided by God) just as “the other Scriptures”. That verse alone indicates that Paul has guidance from God even if he never met Jesus (but he did meet Jesus on the road to Damascus). Paul’s writings is on the same level as Peter, James, John, etc. The connection between Paul’s and the other disciple’s writings has been established. It is no surprise therefore that Paul’s writings are included in the Christian Holy Scriptures. .To suggest or hint that what Paul is writing is not at one with Christ’s teaching is misleading. No less a person than Saint Peter, the most prominent of Christ’s first disciples has given his stamp of approval. So, Talib, your criticism of the writings of Saint Paul goes against Saint Peter himself. I believe Saint Peter, not you.
Hi ‘truth’,
“To suggest or hint that what Paul is writing is not at one with Christ’s teaching is misleading.” – .’truth’
I’m going to ask the same question I’ve asked Pro Christ;
You Kidding me???
to Truth,
1.Who is the real author of Gospel of Peter ( which Truth has quoted to prove authority of Paul )?
The answer :The Gospel of Peter explicitly claims to be the work of the apostle Peter:
“And I with my companions was grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves:” —GoP, 7.
“But I Simon Peter and Andrew my brother took our nets and went to the sea;” — GoP, 14.
HOWEVER, it was a common convention that an apostle’s name would be given to a text to give the work greater authority. The gospel is widely thought to date from after Peter’s death and thus to be PSEUDEPIGRAPHICAL (bearing the name of an author who did not actually compose the text).
According to Carson, D.A., and Douglas J. Moo. An Introduction to the New Testament, second edition. HarperCollins Canada; Zondervan: 2005. ISBN 0310238595, ISBN 978-0310238591. p.659 with regard to author of Gospel of Peter : CERTAINLY NOT PETER.
The New Testament includes two letters (epistles) ascribed to Peter. Both demonstrate a high quality of cultured and urban Greek, at ODDS with the linguistic skill that would ordinarily be expected of an ARAMAIC-SPEAKING FISHERMAN, who would have learned Greek as a second or third language.
the author of the first epistle explicitly claims to be using a SECRETARY, and this explanation would allow for discrepancies in style without entailing a different source. The textual features of these two epistles are such that a majority of scholars DOUBT that they were written by the same hand. This means at the most that Peter COULD NOT HAVE AUTHORED BOTH, or at the least that he used a different secretary for each letter. Some scholars argue that theological differences imply DIFFERENT sources, and point to the lack of references to 2 Peter among the early Church Fathers.
Of the two epistles, the first epistle is considered the earlier. A number of scholars have ARGUED that the textual DISCREPANCIES with what would be expected of the biblical Peter are due to it having been written with the help of a secretary or as an amanuensis. Indeed in the first epistle the use of a secretary is clearly described: “By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand”.
Thus, in regards to at least the first epistle, the claims that Peter would have written Greek seem IRRILEVANT. The references to persecution of Christians, which only began under Nero, cause most scholars to date the text to at least 80, which would require Peter to have survived to an age that was, at that time, extremely old, and almost NEVER reached, particularly by common fishermen.
In the salutation of the First Epistle of Peter the writer refers to the diaspora, WHICH DID NOT OCCUR until 136: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
The Second Epistle of Peter, on the other hand, appears to have been COPIED, in part, from the Epistle of Jude, and some modern scholars date its composition as late as c. 150. Some scholars argue the OPPOSITE, that the Epistle of Jude copied 2 Peter, while others contend an early date for Jude and thus observe that an early date is not incompatible with the text. Many scholars have noted the similarities between the apocryphal second pseudo-Epistle of Clement (2nd century) and 2 Peter. Second Peter MAY BE earlier than 150, there are a few POSSIBLE references to it that date back to the first century or early second century, e.g., 1 Clement written in c. AD 96, and the later church historian Eusebius claimed that Origen had made reference to the epistle before 250. Even in early times there was CONTROVERSY OVER ITS AUTHORSHIP, and 2 Peter was often NOT INCLUDED in the Biblical Canon; it was only in the 4th century that it gained a firm foothold in the New Testament, in a series of synods. In the east the Syrian Orthodox Church still did not admit it into the canon until the 6th century.
My comment: all this uncertainties about the original author of Gospel of Peter nullify your quote from that gospel.
2. Peter and Paul relationship
The “Incident at Antioch” is the standard title historians use to refer to the Early Christian DISPUTE between the apostles Paul and Peter which occurred in the city of Antioch around the middle of the first century. The primary source for the incident is Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians 2:11-14.
11But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
12For before certain ones came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they had come, he withdrew and separated himself from them, fearing those who were of the Circumcision.
13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him, so much that Barnabas also was carried away by their dissimulation.
14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, “If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Since F.C. Baur, scholars have found EVIDENCE of CONFLICT among the leaders of Early Christianity
The outcome of the conflict:
The final outcome of the incident remains UNCERTAIN, indeed the issue of Biblical law in Christianity remains DISPUTED to this day. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “St. Paul’s account of the incident leaves no doubt that St. Peter saw the justice of the rebuke.” In contrast, L. Michael White’s From Jesus to Christianity states: “The blowup with Peter was a total failure of political bravado, and Paul soon left Antioch as persona non grata, never again to return.”
My comment: Peter and Paul are not on the good term, therefore Peter contradicted his approval of Paul.
At least, for such an important decision, the approval of Paul as an apostle must be done by Jesus himself before his death ( with other witnesses ), not by other apostle who was believed to have disagreement with each other.
So, you believe Saint Peter, not me. Fine. Whose Saint Peter do you mean?
Hello all
Today I wish to share another observation. Some Muslims make statements about the Christian faith such as :”your faith is more confusing “-Syukri -sept 11, 4:05pm.”The word of God must be stated very clearly to avoid confusion” – Eric , Sept 9. Is it possible that Muslims have come to believe that the true religion has to be simple. ( There is even a book about Islam called – the Religion is Simple by F S A Majeed). I am not here today to suggest that the true religion must be complex. I am just wondering how this idea of SIMPLICITY in religion came about in Islam. Is it a criteria for establishing the truth that the true religion must be simple? Is that criteria valid? I am not aware of any such idea in Christianity. As far as I am concerned, the true religion has only to be true. If a particular religion is true, then we have to accept it whether it is complex or simple.
On Christianity, I will accept comments from Muslims who say that Christianity is more “confusing” and complex. These statements do not affect the truth of Christianity. My thoughts at this moment is that the truths of Christianity is not simple, or easily understood. As I see it even the God of the Christians is to be found after some effort. (I do not believe that Lord Jesus will appear in your room after you say a prayer asking Him to reveal Himself; though some people say that Jesus has appeared to them in their room.) I believe as I do because of the verse : Jeremiah 29:13 (NIV) -”You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” We are to seek God with all our heart if we hope to find Him.
“… the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls.46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it. ” Matthew 13:45,46 (NIV). Do we value the Kingdom of Heaven above everything else? Perhaps then can we be citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven. Perhaps then can we find God.
Lastly, on this idea of simplicity, I wish to share a quote I read from the writings of one ex- atheist/agnostic who became a Christian and who later wrote a book on Christianity:
“If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier and simpler. But it IS NOT. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.”
C.S.Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York, The Macmillan Company, 1943, Page 145
Everything written above is just my thoughts and is not official Church teaching that I am aware of. Any comments
Hi truth,
“Is it a criteria for establishing the truth that the true religion must be simple?” – ‘truth’
Yes. It just shows the mercy of God unto us by allowing easy access to His true religion.
“My thoughts at this moment is that the truths of Christianity is not simple, or easily understood.” – ‘truth’
Ok. So, what ever happened to “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace” (1 Corinthians 14:33) then?
Lastly, I believe most of us would love to hear your comment on Talib’s latest reply to you.
Thanks as always buddy for your kind attention.
To Talib
Just a short reply from me for now on one part of your writing.
Did you make a mistake? You say “1.Who is the real author of Gospel of Peter ( WHICH TRUTH HAS QUOTED to prove authority of Paul )?
The answer :The Gospel of Peter explicitly claims to be the work of the apostle Peter:
“And I with my companions was grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves:” —GoP, 7.
– Talib, Oct 5,2009
FYI, I have never heard of the Gospel of Peter until you mentioned it. I quoted from the Letters of Saint Peter found in the Holy Bible which are known as First Peter and Second Peter and not the writings claiming to be Gospel of Peter. Everything that you wrote until the statement “with regard to author of Gospel of Peter : CERTAINLY NOT PETER.” only shows your error or lack of knowledge of what Christians believe.
To truth,
I’m no scholar of Bible, like you. I take back my word with regard to Gospel of Peter. Therefore I rephrase : Who is the real author of FIRST PETER and SECOND PETER ( which truth has quoted to prove authority of Paul) ?
If you never heard of the Gospel of Peter, click below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Seems you have meticulously read all my comment, then what do you say about my comment about 1) authorship of First Peter and Second Peter, 2) relationship between Paul and Peter.
Hope you don’t deviate.
To truth,
To justify confusion, contradiction and uncertainties in Christianity, you’ve stated : On Christianity, I will ACCEPT comments from Muslims who say that Christianity is more “confusing” and complex. These statements DO NOT AFFECT the truth of Christianity. My thoughts at this moment is that the TRUTHS OF CHRISTIANITY IS NOT SIMPLE, or EASILY UNDERSTOOD.
My comment: Your thought clearly contradict the teaching of your own scripture that value clear understanding. Furthermore, if not so, what is the purpose of God sending prophets and scripture? Why God do not let people find ‘truth’ in confusion as you may suggest?
John 8:43
43Why is my language not CLEAR to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
Matthew 15:10
Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and UNDERSTAND.
Proverbs 3:13
Blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
the man who gains UNDERSTANDING,
Proverbs 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding delights in wisdom.
Proverbs 18:2
A FOOL finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.
John 16:29
Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are SPEAKING CLEARLY and without figures of speech.
To Talib
I said “My thoughts at this moment is that the TRUTHS OF CHRISTIANITY IS NOT SIMPLE, or EASILY UNDERSTOOD.” which you quoted. Then you commented “Your thought clearly contradict the teaching of your own scripture that value clear understanding.”
I suggest to you that you have made another mistake. You quoted “Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and UNDERSTAND.” -Matthew 15:10
As I see it, the idea of “UNDERSTANDING” and the idea of “SIMPLICITY & COMPLEXITY” are two separate ideas. I can understand simple things. I can also understand complex ideas.
“Listen and UNDERSTAND.” Matthew 15:10 Jesus said. The Bible verses you quoted can be seen as encouraging us to gain understanding. (e.g. Proverbs 3:13
Blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
the man who gains UNDERSTANDING.
But what we are encouraged to understand may be more complex ideas. Where does it say that the ideas must be simple or easily understood. The verse you quoted -John 16:29“Then Jesus’ disciples said, “NOW you are SPEAKING CLEARLY and without figures of speech.” suggest that before the “NOW”, the disciples thought that Jesus was NOT SPEAKING CLEARLY. Also the verse I quoted earlier – 2 Peter 3:15-16 (NIV)-”..Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him… His letters contain some things that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND which ignorant and unstable people distort,as they do the other Scriptures…”. So Paul’s letters, which are considered Holy Scripture, contain some things that are hard to understand.
So I suggest to you my view,( that there is greater complexity and HARD TO UNDERSTAND ideas within Christian truth), does not,as you say, “clearly contradict the teaching of (my) own scripture”. I hope you understand this as :
Proverbs 18:2
A FOOL finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.
To Talib
You wrote ” what do you say about my comment about 1) authorship of First Peter and Second Peter, 2) relationship between Paul and Peter.” – Talib, Oct 10, 5.39pm.
I wish to address the first point for now. Some of what I have to say is actually from your own writing. I feel that you have done “cut and paste” in your reply without reading or thinking through carefully about what you post.
For example, you wrote -”The New Testament includes two letters (epistles) ascribed to Peter. Both demonstrate a high quality of cultured and urban Greek, at ODDS with the linguistic skill that would ordinarily be expected of an ARAMAIC-SPEAKING FISHERMAN, who would have learned Greek as a second or third language.”. This suggest a problem for Christians.
Then you go on to provide the solution when you say – “the author of the first epistle explicitly claims to be using a SECRETARY, and this explanation would allow for discrepancies in style without entailing a different source. The textual features of these two epistles are such that a majority of scholars DOUBT that they were written by the same hand. This means at the most that Peter COULD NOT HAVE AUTHORED BOTH, or at the least that he used a different secretary for each letter.” .
This last sentence suggest two possibilities. Saint Peter wrote one letter but not the other, OR Saint Peter used two different secretaries for each letter, that is why there is a difference in style between the two letters. If Saint Peter used two different secretaries, then there is no problem. Then Talib, why did you even bother to bring this up in the first place. Are you trying to create doubt in the minds of Christians when there is nothing to be concerned about.
The rest of your writing looks like “cut and paste” opinions of experts who even disagree among themselves. I do not feel inclined to reply. I wonder if you even read through them, thought about them and fully understand the experts points. After all you did say that -”I’m no scholar of Bible, like you. I take back my word with regard to Gospel of Peter. ” – Talib , Oct 10, 5.39pm. I respect you for the fact that you are honest enough to admit that you made a mistake (for that is what “I take back my word …” means if I understand correctly). However it also might causes readers to wonder if you know what you are talking about.
To Truth,
‘Christianity is not simple or easily understood’ does not mean that it is true. Buddhism ,Hinduism and many other man made belief also very elaborate and not easily understood.
If you understand things that I don’t understand, please explain it and answer my question. ( such as what is the authority of Paul that his writing is considered Holy Scripture ). Don’t just say it is not easily understood. That is called cheap escapism.
FYI, I find pleasure in understanding, that why I ask you question so that I can understand.
” Hard to understand’ is always an excuse from those who can’t understand and find NO pleasure in understanding.
To Talib
This is in reply to your post on Oct 12, 3:05am -”If you understand things that I don’t understand, please explain it and answer my question. ( such as what is the authority of Paul that his writing is considered Holy Scripture ). Don’t just say it is not easily understood.” – Talib.
We have been talking about ideas such as simplicity and complexity of truth as it relates to Christianity and Islam. I suggest to you that the problem some persons have with Christianity is not its complexity. It is not a problem of having enough IQ to understand the more complex Christian truth. Rather, I believe, it is an attitude problem. Your own quotation of Lord Jesus in John 8:43 :”Why is my language not CLEAR to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say”.(Talib – Oct 10,2009 – 8.06pm). The ESV version of the Bible translates this as ” …..It is because YOU CANNOT BEAR TO HEAR MY WORD.” John 8:43. It seems that Jesus was talking CLEARLY then and yet some did not understand. I suggest to you that perhaps it is more correct to say SOME PERSONS DID NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND. This issue of persons not wanting to understand happened when Jesus spoke CLEARLY then; and perhaps is happening now when Christians present Christian truth to Muslims. Let Muslims not say that Christianity is NOT CLEAR, “confusing”and complex, not easily understood and other excuses; for the problem really lies not within “complex” Christianity but within the attitude of Muslims themselves. Muslims cannot bear to hear the words (teaching) of Jesus -whether His words(teaching) are complex or simple.
To Talib
Today I wish to address your second statement : – “2) relationship between Paul and Peter.” – Talib, Oct 10, 5.39pm. You ask me to comment on this relationship because of the incident recorded in Galatians 2:11-14. Where there appears to be a conflict of opinion between the two persons.
You mentioned -’ The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “St. Paul’s account of the incident leaves no doubt that St. Peter saw the justice of the rebuke.” In contrast, L. Michael White’s From Jesus to Christianity states: “The blowup with Peter was a total failure of political bravado, and Paul soon left Antioch as persona non grata, never again to return….
My(Talib) comment: Peter and Paul are not on the good term, therefore Peter contradicted his approval of Paul.” – Talib, Oct 5, 2009, 4:44am.
It is not surprising to me that you, Talib, would want everyone to believe that “Peter and Paul are not on good terms” and that “Peter contradicted his approval of Paul.” You are saying these things because I mentioned the verse 2 Peter 3:15-16 in which Saint Peter implies that he recognizes the writing of Saint Paul as being guided by God. That is your desperate attempt to discredit Saint Paul and the approval of Saint Peter.
I wish, at this point in time, to share an observation. Is it not odd that Saint Peter, after having been with Jesus (whom Christians believe is God) for so long could still commit an error of judgement. (So Saint Peter is not perfect as the Muslims believe Islam’s Prophet Muhammad is- if I understand correctly). Actually Saint Peter’s error reminds me of Moses’ error (the Moses whom God knew face to face -Deuteronomy 34:10. Moses error is referred to in Deuteronomy 32:51 . Because of this error Moses, who led the Hebrews to the Promised Land was not allowed to enter the Promised Land himself.
So, my point is Saint Peter made a mistake and was corrected by Saint Paul. Saint Peter’s error is not an event unique in the Bible. The Bible, being a book that records truth, records the good deeds of God’s servants as well as their errors. There are those who having their own agendas (including Muslims) will try to twist/ interpret the events recorded in the Bible for their own purposes. This is my advice to you Talib. Do not play around or twist the words of the Bible. You are playing with fire. If you do finally get burnt, it is with the fire from hell. Be careful, please.
To all
I shall be away for about a week because of work. God Bless.
Heya ‘truth’,
I know you’ll be away for a week. But ah…
“Do not play around or twist the words of the Bible. You are playing with fire. If you do finally get burnt, it is with the fire from hell.” – ‘truth’
“Now, what can be more lame than a Christian who denies the fact that the Bible has been changed at least once by man. Please do entertain us with your lamest explanation regarding 1 John 5:7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum). ” – Confused by Paul
Well buddy, looks like one scribe is already confirmed as hell that he is going to get burnt in hell then. And only God knows how many more of them are gonna to get it too.
Peace out bro.
To truth,
I can summarize the main topics of this discussion is:
1) The definite divinity of Jesus.
Eric asked you where is in Bible Jesus exactly ask his follower to worship him. You presented Matthew 28:9 to show that his followers DID worship him.
When Syukri nullified your proof of Jesus divinity by showing various translations of Bible that the word actually mean ‘bow’ or ‘ respect’, you did not accept it as valid and demand the Greek original Bible. When he present to you that the word is ACTUALLY bow and respect in Greek, ( but unscrupulously changed to suit trinitarian belief ), instead of accepting your mistake of presenting the wrong proof, you jumped to another topic by saying that the core Christian belief does not originated from Greek manuscript.
You did not defend your proof of divinity of Jesus in Matthew 28: 29. You even ADMIT the mistake of translators.
2) Core Christian Belief
When Syukri asked you where then the core christian belief come from. You said said it come from those who wrote them ( eg; Peter and Paul ). When Syukri show the proof that most of the authors of Bible are unknown like Matthew and Peter, you cannot clearly refute it, instead you commented on 8 Oct :On Christianity, I will accept comments from Muslims who say that Christianity is more “confusing” and complex. These statements do not affect the truth of Christianity. My thoughts at this moment is that the truths of CHRISTIANITY is NOT SIMPLE, or EASLIY UNDERSTOOD.
Obviously this is not an answer but an lame excuse from someone who can’t understand. If you go to court and use this excuse to explain your truth/innocence, NOBODY expect your truth/innocence to be duly accepted.
Clearly our discussion from beginning are not based on emotional ( like cursing etc ), but rational whereas we present our PROOF. I present the proof from Bible to uphold my point so do you. But you choose to say that your belief is not easily understood. If you don’t really understand your faith, what is the purpose of this website in the first place? Just believe you faith as it is. No need to evangelize, because in order to evangelize, you need to rationalize, explain and make people understand.
With regard to my request to you to comment about the authorship of First Peter and Second Peter, you stated:
This last sentence suggest two possibilities. Saint Peter wrote one letter but not the other, OR Saint Peter used two different secretaries for each letter, that is why there is a difference in style between the two letters. If Saint Peter used two different secretaries, then there is no problem. Then Talib, why did you even bother to bring this up in the first place. Are you trying to create doubt in the minds of Christians when there is nothing to be concerned about.
To end the statement, you said: The rest of your writing looks like “cut and paste” opinions of experts who even disagree among themselves. I do not feel inclined to reply. I wonder if you even read through them, thought about them and fully understand the experts points.
My reply: You said that you read ALL the comment and fully understand the expert points but don’t feel incline to reply. Why is it so, is that because it will not support your claim?
First, even if Peter use two secretaries to write the scripture, it still bring doubt to readers. Like, why is an inspired author of Bible need to use secretary? Isn’t his inspirational expression ( from god as Christian Christian believe if I may suggest ) suffice him to write a sacred scripture?
Second, below is the expert opinion that you don’t incline to reply. In the salutation of the First Epistle of Peter the writer refers to the diaspora, WHICH DID NOT OCCUR until 136. Read yourself:
1 Peter 1:1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
This show that this ‘Peter’ is not Apostle Peter who was with Jesus. The name and historical record have proven opposite in SINGLE VERSE!
Third, scholar indicate even in early times there was CONTROVERSY OVER ITS AUTHORSHIP, and 2 Peter was often NOT INCLUDED in the Biblical Canon; it was only in the 4th century that it gained a firm foothold in the New Testament, in a series of synods. In the east the Syrian Orthodox Church still did not admit it into the canon until the 6th century.
Therefore, scholar are not in disagreement about the authorship of First Peter and Second Peter as you claimed. They are all agreed that the two epistles was not written by The Apostle Peter himself. Only Christian like you are in disarray with regard to the authorship of this two books.
So the question remains and still unanswered by you. Who wrote the books?
For readers information, Christian have no answer for this question. That’s why they can’t answer and try to divert all the time. They will say: IT’S TRUE. BUT IT’S HARD TO UNDERSTAND.
Funny right?
I’ve commented Truth, but the reply did not appear. Why?
To Eric
I wrote -“Is it a criteria for establishing the truth that the true religion must be simple?” – ‘truth’ – (as quoted by Eric, Oct 9,2009). I had also stated “As far as I am concerned, the true religion has only to be true. If a particular religion is true, then we have to accept it whether it is complex or simple. -’truth’ Oct 8, 2009, 10:40pm.
Your reply to my question: “Is it a criteria for establishing the truth that the true religion must be simple?” -’truth’
“Yes. It just shows the mercy of God unto us by allowing easy access to His true religion.” – Eric, 9 Oct,2009.
I am stating ,now, I can only be certain that the true religion has to be true. THAT IS A FACT.
Your statement: ” Yes. It (that is- the idea that the true religion must be simple) just shows the mercy of God unto us by allowing easy access to His true religion.” – Eric, 9 Oct,2009.
That idea is an ASSUMPTION. The idea that – the true religion must be simple- cannot be proven, I think.
So if you are using SIMPLICITY as a criteria for trying to establish that Islam is true, that criteria is NOT VALID.
It would be interesting to see you state other criteria in an attempt to show that Islam is true. It would be very sad for you if even those criteria is shown to be ASSUMPTIONS. (Will your statements be like Syukri’s nonsense statements he made in an attempt to show Quran is superior to Bible; to which I replied on September 14th, 2009. Will you agree with me that Syukri made a nonsense statement (Statement no. 5) on August 31,2009 and use that statement to try to show that Quran is superior to Bible. Are you honest enough to admit that you think Syukri made a mistake. Talib, at least, had the honesty to “take back my(Talib) word with regard to Gospel of Peter.” – Oct 10, 2009.
Heya ‘truth’,
Hey you’re back! That must be the shortest week of all ya. Just 2 days! In anycase, thanks for your reply, as usual.
“I am stating ,now, I can only be certain that the true religion has to be true. THAT IS A FACT.” – ‘truth’
Let me get this straight now. The true religion has to be true…WHAT??? Are you serious??? Oh dude, its a good thing that you are telling me now. I wouldnt want to get fried for following a true religion that is false.
But seriously, is that gibberish that you’ve used buddy? Of course the criteria for a true religion have to be true. Otherwise, it will not be called the True Religion right? Duh.
Adding on…
“That idea is an ASSUMPTION. The idea that – the true religion must be simple- cannot be proven, I think.
” – ‘truth’
So you think? I’m begining to doubt that you really know what you are talking about here buddy. Once again, you have proven your capability of being uncertain with important issues. Remember, I have always asked for clear definite answers. No ‘I THINKs’, ‘POSSIBILITIESs’, ‘ASSUMEs’, ‘Everything written above is just my thoughts’ and etc and etc please.
If you asked me. That idea is not an ASSUMPTION. No ‘I THINKs’ for my part. I am very certain. The message has always been clear, straight forward and consistant. The prophets of old are carrying the same simple message through out the ages. Because God is not a god of confusion my friend.
“It would be interesting to see you state other criteria in an attempt to show that Islam is true.” -’truth’
Those ‘attempt’ my friend, they aren’t really attempt at all. One just need to use their logical mind to see it.
On your comment about Syukri’s statement no.5 now…
“Are you honest enough to admit that you think Syukri made a mistake.” – ‘truth’
So if I do not agree with you, are you trying to tell me that I am dishonest? Is that how it works here? Force it down the throat just like the Doctrine of Trinity which you just don’t bother to conform with the basic layman logic, yet unashamedly accuse people who resist your ‘illogical logic’ as closed mind, blind follower, not a truth seeker etc?
If you asked me, I’ll be as honest as Talib and not as dishonest as Hamzah that I shall admit that it is you who are not talking sense here buddy. Its either you bite the bullet since you’ve asked or you respect my opinion. Period.
I have patiently been waiting for your comments to my reply regarding the obvious signs that the Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God dated Sept 7th 2009. Till now, I hear nothing from you regarding this. Care to share with us your comments now buddy? Provided if you are not “busy” that is.
Take care as always now.
To truth,
I’ve been replying you. But my comment did not appear. I don’t want you to think that I CAN NOT answer you.
Hi Talib,
I believe you. It happened to me too bro. The comments didn’t appear after replying. Try reposting again. That helps.
Salam Eric,
Thank you. I will. But we have to bear in mind that this is their website. They can do what they want, including deleting and stopping the web post as happened many many time before.
Assalamualaikum to all,
peace be upon those who follow guidance
I’m back from my holiday and long work. Reading comment from truth about his comment regarding my comparison to Quran and Bible is hilarious.
Will comment shortly, InsyaAllah
To Eric
Thank you for your comments (dated Oct 15, 2009)
I wish first to reply to you comment – “Let me get this straight now. The true religion has to be true…WHAT???…. Seriously, is that gibberish that you’ve used buddy? Of course the criteria for a true religion have to be true. Otherwise, it will not be called the True Religion right? Duh.”
If anyone were to say that I could have put my points across in a better way, I will not dispute that. I am not here to prove that I am a good writer (and I do not think I am) but to tell all why I think only Christianity is true (which also means that I may need to show why other belief systems is false, I THINK.)
Also you say, -”If you asked me. That idea is not an ASSUMPTION. No ‘I THINKs’ for my part. I am very certain.” Your certainty does not prove anything. There are many followers of many religions who are very certain about the validity of their beliefs. But since many of these religions contradict each other, millions are CERTAINLY WRONG (and that must possibly include you). Also your statement – “That idea is not an ASSUMPTION.” – ,as it stands, is an opinion.
So it appears to me that you are trying to support (what appears to a non-Muslim as) an ASSUMPTION with an OPINION. (This point of the discussion I may address later.)
You say -”The prophets of old are carrying the same simple message through out the ages.” I feel I can agree with that statement but I will not use the word “simple” as whether the message is simple or not is subjective. What would be more beneficial is to discuss whether the message of the prophets of old (by that I mean the prophets of the Old Testament of the Bible) is more at one with the message of the New Testament or the Quran.
You also say -”Those ‘attempt’ my friend, they aren’t really attempt at all. One just need to use their LOGICAL MIND to see it.” – (Eric). So are you saying that by using our heads (logical mind) we can always arrive at God’s truth. If so, why are there different sects/teachings within Islam ( not to mention different religions ).
There is logical reasoning in the Christian religion but God (and His ways) is too great for our “logical mind” to fully understand. That God would wash away my sins with the Blood that Jesus shed on the Cross, I have heard describe as “beyond human understanding”. I cannot say that I fully understand this but I will say that I am grateful. I am grateful for the CERTAINTY of God’s forgiveness. I am at peace with that thought in mind. (Note- What I have just written also is a reply to the statement -” …Doctrine of Trinity you just don’t bother to conform with the basic layman logic,”. The trouble with” basic layman logic” is that it is limited. I am just thinking here, but can a Muslim explain Allah and all his ways with ” basic layman logic”? Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Allah is greater than that.
You say – “On your comment about Syukri’s statement no.5 now…
“Are you honest enough to admit that you think Syukri made a mistake.” – ‘truth’
So if I do not agree with you, are you trying to tell me that I am dishonest? …etc” Eric.
Syukri asked me for a YES or NO answer ( to which I replied on Sept 15, 12:32am) and I am asking you now YES (Syukri is wrong) or NO. I guess you know that if you say YES, Syukri will look stupid. If you say NO you, (ERIC) will look stupid to all because the error of Syukri’s writing is obvious here. So I consider your lack of a YES or NO reply and the words after that as an evasion. You do not want to answer. I believe you do not want to answer truthfully. You wrote that you want me to respect your opinion but a YES or NO is your opinion. That is one opinion, it appears, you are afraid to give. So that is one opinion I do not know and cannot respect.
‘Truth’,
“I shall be away for about a week because of work.” – ‘truth’
Are you out of job now buddy? It hasn’t been a week and you are already replying in great length.
“I am not here to prove that I am a good writer (and I do not think I am)” -’truth’
I 100% totally agree with you buddy. Because I don’t seem to get the angle on where you are going here with your gibberish replies.
So, are you done now? If you are, I shall not say further but to let the readers judge for themselves as how you have always put it.
Be advised, DO NOT take this as me conceding defeat to your latest attempt in diversion. In fact, I would love to engage in an argument with you. But if I do that, not will it only be a waste of time but that will also just leave room of opportunity for you to evade my earlier questions which are more relevant, AGAIN.
So, start being focused and comment on my reply dated Sept 7th 2009 at 9:14 am regarding the obvious signs that the Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God. And also my question of who commanded us to worship Jesus since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so.
It is more than ONE MONTH now THAT YOU HAVE EVADED THAT QUESTION. Do not attempt to evade again this time. Unless if you are trying to run away from it.
Looking forward to be entertained by you again buddy. Provided if you can.
To Eric
I pointed out what I thought was Talib’s error and he took back his words (the relevant words, at least) – [ see Talib's post -Oct 10,2009]. I respect his honesty.
I pointed out Syukri’s error to you and you do not take a stand as to whether he is right or wrong. I ask for a YES or NO answer but you do not give it. And you say “Be advised, DO NOT take this as me conceding defeat ….” Eric 18th, 10:30am. I am not asking you to write a long essay ( and I know you are capable of that). No reply from you about this issue, I believe, is not because it takes too much effort to reply. How much effort does it take to reply YES or No. You can do it in one short sentence. The readers will come to their own conclusion. And I think the conclusion will not be good for you.
Regarding what you wrote on Sept 7th 2009 at 9:14 am, I shall reply when I am more free and if the Lord allows. I chose not to reply earlier as I felt that it was easier to reply to other issues (such as the wrong idea that Christian beliefs arose through faulty translations) and be seen to be right.(There is at least one honest Muslim out there who has agreed with me about something, so I cannot be brushed off as being completely wrong, illogical and talking “gibberish” ) Also, I was hoping for others to reply as I do not want to be the only Christian writer here. Work calls. Peace out.
‘Truth’,
“I ask for a YES or NO answer but you do not give it.” -’truth’
Oh really? Did you? Specifically like Syukri’s where he clearly demanded for a Yes or No answer? You didn’t specifically asked for a YES or NO from me buddy. Go read that first post of yours regarding this which was on Oct 15th, 2009 at 7:03 pm again and tell me where you did.
For your info, a specific demand for a YES or NO answer will look like this:
“Say yes or no because I don’t want to waste my time…” – Syukri, Sep 12th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Whereas yours looks like this:
“Will you agree with me that Syukri made a nonsense statement (Statement no. 5) on August 31,2009 and use that statement to try to show that Quran is superior to Bible. Are you honest enough to admit that you think Syukri made a mistake.” – ‘truth’ Oct 15th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Coming from someone who expects other people not to write long essays, that sure is a mouthful for a demand of a short YES or NO answer isn’t it? And for a question, it doesn’t even comes with a question mark buddy. So, where exactly is this specific YES or NO of yours?
Still can’t find? No? Alright, since you didn’t asked me specifically, I THEN DIDN’T FEEL OBLIGED TO ANSWER YOU IN THAT MANNER. Simple as that.
“…if you say YES, Syukri will look stupid. If you say NO you, (ERIC) will look stupid to all because the error of Syukri’s writing is obvious here.” -’truth’ Oct 18th, 2009 at 5:48 am
With statement like that, it is obvious that you are forcing it down the throat buddy. Its just in your culture isn’t it? Since my honesty in answering will not count for you in this case, so whats the point of me answering?
Your words just reminds me of what an Elementary school kid would typically do when he is desperate for other kids to side him during an argument. It is just so typical of their cliché of “Its either you are with me or you are stupid.”
In any case now, on seeing that you insist for a one word answer, I then shall give it to you just so to end this insignificant diverted topic of yours. Here it is…NO. And I will also add that there is NO “OBVIOUS ERROR” in Syukri’s writing on that point at all, 100%. And the only one that will look stupid now will be you for behaving immaturely in handling this. Take note that I am using the word stupid here is only because you have used it first. Otherwise it will not be there. Let the readers decide now.
“Regarding what you wrote on Sept 7th 2009 at 9:14 am, I shall reply when I am more free and if the Lord allows.” -’truth’
I really hope you will not disappoint me by using that as an excuse for you to escape from it. I have been disappointed many times before. Because you see, you are not the first Christian I spoke to who evades that question.
Peace out to you too buddy.
To Eric
Thank you for your comments.
You say – “So, start being focused and comment on my reply dated Sept 7th 2009 at 9:14 a.m. – regarding the obvious signs that the Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God. And also my question of WHO COMMANDED US TO WORSHIP JESUS since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so.” – Eric, Oct 18, 10:30am.
What you wrote above contains two statements. I wish to address the second one first (which I placed in CAPITALS.) as the reply is shorter. (And I am not in the mood to write longer replies today)
I wish to quote : Colossians 1:15 – 20 (NIV) -15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,…… 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood shed on the cross.”
Reading the above quotation from Colossians, which is a letter from Paul and Timothy ( Colossians 1:1 )it is clear that Jesus created all things (verse 16).( See also John 1:1-3).
Immediately, we see Jesus being referred to in a way that indicates Jesus is more than an ordinary man. Jesus existed before he appeared as a man on earth because it is stated that he created all things.
For the sake of discussion, let us say that I agree with you(Eric) that there is no command in the Bible for us to worship Jesus( and I do not know of any- from memory); there is still the problem (for Muslims) of statements in the New Testament that Jesus has existed since the beginning of time(at least) and that he created all things. (I heard of one heretical sect that believes Jesus is the first created being, or angel though not God. This still contradicts what Muslims believe.)
So, Eric, your question of” who commanded us to worship Jesus since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so” is MEANINGLESS because even if there are no such commands; what is written about Jesus in the New Testament clearly contradicts Muslim’s belief about Jesus (whether Christians worship Jesus or not). There lies the problem for Muslims.
You, Eric, are playing games with words. What is your view of the verses I have quoted about Jesus creating all things and having existed since the start of creation (at least). Is Jesus an angel? Your statement, even if IT IS LITERALLY CORRECT, is in reality too WEAK a POINT to be used to try to show that Jesus is not God. (Actually I do not consider it a point at all). I cannot stop you from using it, but my personal view is that to do so will make you look desperate. (Also, before you ask me, let me state that I do not know -from memory- of any such direct command to worship Jesus. And my mainstream Christian beliefs has not been affected by the realisation of the lack of such a direct command in the Bible.)
‘Truth’,
“Thank you for your comments.” – ‘truth’
You’re welcome. And thank you too for your reply, I am thoroughly entertained by it as always.
Ok, I shall be as brief as possible here since you are in no mood for long replies. Now let us begin.
“So, start being focused and comment on…my question of WHO COMMANDED US TO WORSHIP JESUS since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so.” – Eric, Oct 18th, 2009 at 10:30 am
“…let me state that I DO NOT KNOW -from memory- OF ANY SUCH DIRECT COMMAND TO WORSHIP JESUS…” – ‘truth’, Oct 21st, 2009 at 2:35 am
So from memory, you finally do admit that there is no such direct command to worship Jesus after all. Thank you. That is all I need to know from you.
Since THERE IS NO memory of any SUCH DIRECT COMMAND TO WORSHIP JESUS and there is clearly NO DIRECT WORD FROM GOD Himself TO do so, who is the one that is playing games with words now buddy since you yourself WORSHIP JESUS?
Looking forward to your reply now regarding the obvious signs that the Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God.
Peace out now buddy.
To Eric
Today I wish to reply to your post on Sept 7, 9;14am.,2009. You stated many things there so you should not expect a short reply. (I intend to answer in parts as it is easier for me to write in this way.)
Part 1
My reply has to do with the nature of God. I can only reply by first trying to explain the Holy Trinity (as I understand ). First, a bible verse – ” All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus). Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” … (Matt 28:18-19). The Holy Trinity is mentioned.
The example that I like, that I heard used to explain the Holy Trinity, is “fire”. When we see a fire, we are aware of the flame, the light that the flame gives off, as well as its heat. So we have three elements in a fire. Can we have fire without light being given off, or a fire without heat. So the three elements in a fire (that is flame, light and heat) are connected; they are one (though we can distinguish three separate elements). (I could say, for the point of discussion, that God the Father is the flame, Jesus is the light, and the Holy Spirit is the heat of the flame. However I believe we are in danger of falling into error when we try to use the material world to explain the nature of the Trinity. This example is useful up to a point.)
In the spiritual world, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one God. The Father has the same substance as the Son as well as the Holy Spirit. So God the Father is divine, the Son is divine and the Holy Spirit is divine. However, though the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same in substance and therefore equally divine; the Father, Son and Spirit appear to have different roles.
Saint Peter says that the people of God “have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood” (1 Peter 1:2) NIV . “It is clear from this verse that each person of the Trinity has a function or role in the world. The Father chooses, the Spirit sanctifies, and Jesus redeems people with his blood that he shed on the cross.” -James M. Arlandson (from Answering Islam page) . Also the same writer says”.. They are equal to each other in their divine attributes, but the Son and the Spirit are SUBORDINATE in their roles.” – CAPITALS mine. It is this difference in the roles that results in such statements that you, Eric, quoted :“my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28). I wish now to address issues you brought up when you quoted Bible verses.
Some points appear more sensible than others. For now, I wish to highlight the following which shows your lack of knowledge (or error) of what Christians believe (or is this a deliberate attempt by you to mislead). You say:
‘GOD IS EVERLASTING – “Now unto the King, ETERNAL, IMMORTAL, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever” (1 Timothy 1:17)’. Then you say :
‘JESUS WAS CREATED – “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, MADE OF A WOMAN, made under the law.” ‘ – Eric. (CAPITALS MINE).
Your point here is NONSENSE because Christians will tell you that Jesus took on human form about 2000 years ago. (So in one sense, as I understand it, the human part of Jesus was created) But the Divine part of Jesus has always existed. So your statement that “Jesus was created” which suggests that Jesus was a creature (a created being that did not exist before a point in time) is wrong and misleading. (Please also read -: Colossians 1:15 – 20). – END OF Part 1 -To be continued.
To Eric
CONTINUATION OF REPLY DATED OCT. 22, 2009- 12.40 am.
Part 2.
You say:
GOD IS NOT A MAN
“God is not a man, that He should lie; nor a son of man, that he should repent: Has he said, and will not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19)
JESUS IS A MAN
“Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know:” (Acts 2:22)- Eric, Sept 7, 9;14 am,2009.
Here, Eric, I feel in your attempt to show that Jesus is not God, you have missed the point of the verse you quoted (NUMBERS 23:19). You are using the verse to show that God is not a PHYSICAL MAN and Jesus was a physical man. But that is not what the verse in NUMBERS is talking about.
My understanding of this verse is that God (is not talking about whether he is a physical man or not but rather) is talking about His INTEGRITY. “God is not a man, THAT HE SHOULD LIE.” and I am sure you will agree with me that there are men who are liars. Also “..has he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19) which is also about his integrity.
This verse in Numbers is an example of the distinction (difference) between God and man. Here I am talking about the perfect character of God and and the flawed character of man (and not about God as spirit and man as a physical being.)
If we see the verse in NUMBERS in this way, than the verse in NUMBERS is an indication that JESUS IS GOD because Jesus did not lie, and made good whatever he spoke. Jesus is no mere prophet because, among men, only Jesus never sinned or made an error. (Even Prophet Moses and Saint Peter made errors.)
I am amazed that the very verse (Numbers) you, Eric, used to try to prove that Jesus is not God actually is a sign that He is God. God is great.
end of Part 2. To be continued…
salam to all,
I’ve post my comment, but it still did not appear. Is there is some kind of conspiracy to block my certain comment? I know that this is a Christian website, but let’s have fair game.
‘truth’
Now this is what I am talking about. You being focused.
I shall wait for your full reply before I give you mine. This is just to let you know that I am still here. In any case, even though I do not totally agree with you in your reply I will still like to say good job in being focused now.
We are going somewhere here buddy. Now please proceed.
Hi all,
comments are automatically filtered through a spam filter. So some comments do not appeared. I went through the list of spam comments, and recovered what i could. I didn’t find any other comments.
if the future, if your comment does not appear, you can email me at tedfox @ gmail . com
To Eric
Thank you for your kind comments about my being focused. But my attention at this point in time is being drawn to work issues. I do not want to give sloppy replies. I shall continue as soon as I can, if the Lord allows.
‘truth’
No problem buddy. Just take your time there. I really do hope we can engage in a constructive and gracious manner from now on regarding this ya.
Peace out now.
To Talib
I have just read you statements (dated 15th Oct. 2009). They did not appear earlier. You have to ask Tedfox why that is so.
As a reponse to what you wrote there, I wish to state that :
(1) you made an error about the Gospel of Peter and because of that you took back you words (Talib’s post Oct 10th, 2009 at 5:39 pm). I wish to state that I respect your honesty here.
(2) You tried to show that my view of Christianity as not being simple or easily understood contradicts the bible itself. (Talib’s post – Oct 10, 2009, 8.06pm) But my reply on Oct 11, with verses such as 2 Peter 3:15-16 that states that there are ideas within Christian truth that are hard to understand, shows you are wrong. (Perhaps you would be so honest here also as to admit that you have made another mistake.)
(3) You tried to cast doubt about the authorship of First Peter and Second Peter( Talib’s post – Oct 5,2009), but then (perhaps unknowingly) provide an answer to the to an apparent problem there (as I pointed out in my post – ‘truth..’ Oct 12, 2:59am). Here is you third mistake. You appear confused here.
You invite me to reply to what you present as problem questions to the Christian religion. But I suggest to you that what you are trying to do may reveal even more of your mistakes. You have made three mistakes already ( and you have been honest enough to admit to one.) You say -”Talib
Sep 26th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
to truth and light from the Son,
Stop commenting about our faith if you are not sure or else you are only disclosing your inconsistency, embarrassing yourself …..”
If anyone should be embarrassed, it is you ( and I consider these errors as not complex). I do not feel inclined to reply to you as to do so is to waste my time (considering the past nonsense you have written). Others may do so if they wish. Pointing out three of your errors is enough for me. I have tried to share with you the light of the Son but there is nothing I can do if you choose not to see. Have a good life.
To Eric
I was doing some reading and thinking of how to phrase my thoughts in my reply to you when I came across the following passage:
“Jesus Receives The Very Same Worship Given To God
In light of the foregoing NT teaching that Jesus is the Creator of all things, it is little wonder that we find the Lord Jesus saying the following:
“The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, EVEN AS they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” John 5:22-23
Notice that Jesus doesn’t say to honor him as one honors a prophet or one’s parents. Jesus very bluntly says that he must be honored in exactly the same way God is honored, i.e. Jesus is demanding the very worship due to God since the way one honors God is to worship him” – Sam Shamoun – The New Testament on the Worship given to Jesus
Its Significance and Implications for the Deity of Christ (from Answering Islam).
Here is something for all to consider.
Hi ‘truth’
Just a quick one. Thanks for you reply. I have read through it. Will there be anymore coming in? If not, I shall give my reply and thoughts soon. But not so soon though, work calls. Hope you understand.
We’ll talk soon buddy.
To Eric
CONTINUATION OF REPLY DATED OCT. 22, 2009- 12.40 am.
Part 3.
You mentioned: – Jesus is not all powerful -
“Then answered Jesus and said to them; Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he sees the Father do: for whatever he does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does” (John 5:19-20).” Eric – Sept 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am.
My reply has, again, to do with the nature of the Holy Trinity. Although there are three distinct persons in the Holy Trinity; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have only one will. So Jesus is saying that the will of the Father and the Son is one. That is why “… what he sees the Father do: for whatever he (the Father) does, the Son also does in like manner…” – John 5:19.
From Answering Islam page-”…. the Son is one being with the Father, so he never works by himself, but always works with the Father. These are the reasons why Jesus says, “the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing” and “I can do nothing on my own.” John 5:30 A Response to a Muslim Article titled Is Jesus Really God? By Anthony Wales
The verse you quoted also suggest that JESUS IS ALL POWERFUL because whatever God the Father does,” the Son also does in like manner.” Jesus is able to do what God the Father does. (Those who want to find out more can go to the article by Anthony Wales.)
to Eric
CONTINUATION OF REPLY DATED OCT. 22, 2009- 12.40 am.-
Part 4
You Say: -
God cannot be seen
“dwelling in inapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see.” (1Timothy 6:16)
Jesus was seen
“This is now the third time that Jesus showed himself to his disciples, after he was raised from the dead.” (John 21:14) – …. Eric.
Here, I think, is a an example of Muslims trying to publicise what they believe are contradictions in Christian beliefs but in so doing showing again their lack of knowledge of Christian beliefs.
In Exodus 33:18-20 God says no one may see God and live. As I understand it, this refers to God’s appearance as a spirit in his full glory ( as he really is and which no one may see).
However God has chosen to make his presence known by taking on a form temporarily on certain of occasions .
(1) -In Exodus 3:1-4 we read about God speaking from a burning bush to Moses. (The term “angel of the Lord” is used interchangebly with “Lord” and “God”).
(2) – In Exodus 24:9-11 we read about Moses and others meeting God.
(2) – In Acts 2:1-4 – we read about the presence of God appearing as tongues of fire.
In Jesus, the Lord God has chosen to appear as a physical man. This event of God being seen as a man is very special but it is not the first and only time that the Lord God has made his presence known, sensed or seen in this world.
To truth.
I would like to reply to your comment. You said:
(1) you made an error about the Gospel of Peter and because of that you took back you words (Talib’s post Oct 10th, 2009 at 5:39 pm). I wish to state that I respect your honesty here.
Yes. I’m honest and clear from the beginning. I ready to admit my mistake. Unlike you, playing hiding and seeking with your faith.
(2) You tried to show that my view of Christianity as not being simple or easily understood contradicts the bible itself. (Talib’s post – Oct 10, 2009, 8.06pm) But my reply on Oct 11, with verses such as 2 Peter 3:15-16 that states that there are ideas within Christian truth that are hard to understand, shows you are wrong. (Perhaps you would be so honest here also as to admit that you have made another mistake.)
My reply: You have to verified first the authenticity of 2 Peter as I raised before you quote that as you reference. Then we can consider looking at the verses. Until now you have been hiding and not transparent about this matter. For readers who want to know my argument that truth DECLINED to comment, I rewrite as below, show the confusing and contradiction of Peter, interestingly, in one phrases!:
1 Peter 1:1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
This show that this ‘Peter’ is not Apostle Peter who was with Jesus because Christianiy at that time was still in Palestine. The name, places and historical record have proven opposite in SINGLE VERSE!
For someone who like to find my mistake to discredit me, it’s amusing that Truth did not want to comment on this (if this argument is invalid, because he will be happy to comment ‘my nonsense’). This show that he DID NOT HAVE ANSWER TO THIS.
3) You invite me to reply to what you present as problem questions to the Christian religion. But I suggest to you that what you are trying to do may reveal even more of your mistakes. You have made three mistakes already ( and you have been honest enough to admit to one.) You say -”Talib
Sep 26th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
to truth and light from the Son,
Stop commenting about our faith if you are not sure or else you are only disclosing your inconsistency, embarrassing yourself …..”
If anyone should be embarrassed, it is you ( and I consider these errors as not complex). I do not feel inclined to reply to you as to do so is to waste my time (considering the past nonsense you have written). Others may do so if they wish. Pointing out three of your errors is enough for me. I have tried to share with you the light of the Son but there is nothing I can do if you choose not to see. Have a good life.
My reply: I seem confusing, right? But for someone who accept ‘confusion and hard to understand’ as non-deterrent to truth, why can’t you accept that as an acceptable statement? Why you say that was nonsense? This show that, deep bottom in your heart ( and in everybody who is reading this ) that WE don’t accept confusing and contradiction as TRUTH. ( like Jesus is a man ( created ) and a god ( uncreated ) at the same time. How can created living is uncreated living at the same time? It’s like saying someone/thing is existent and nonexistent at the same time.)
For you info, I was born a Muslim, then ‘inclined’ to Christianity ( I didn’t declare and change my identity though ). But I was like Christians worldwide, affiliated to Christianity but non-observant. When I read baffling comment from Truth, it was natural for me to advise him to stop commenting about things that will disclose more about illogical things in this faith.For me then, faith is between you and God, it’s personal, not for argument.
Praise be to Allah, the witty argument from Eric and objective explanation from Syukri ( I notice he tries his best to construct his argument clearly using beautiful layout and reference ) made me rethink about Christianity especially when I notice Truth trying to deviate all the time and using repetitive unresolved proof. ( like using 2 Peter to show complexity of Christianity but decline to bring proof of author authentication as requested before using it ).
I was like synthesized Chinese before who think that everything white, European, ( name, dress, culture, religion ) are cool and unfortunately, correct.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/20/news/20iht-sing.2.t.html
Now, I realize that being a coloured Christian, I was never subconsciously accepted by my white ‘brethren’ ( yes, superficially especially if you say you have left Islam ). My further study confirmed that Christianity is a racist religion divided by geographical boundaries, colour and languages.
Wikipedia is correct ( Truth does not like wikipedia, because even neutral sources confirms the irrelevance of Christianity ) when it states:
Worldwide, Christians are divided, often along ethnic and linguistic lines, into separate churches and traditions. Technically, divisions between one group and another are defined by doctrine and church authority. Issues such as the nature of Jesus, the authority of apostolic succession, and papal primacy separate one denomination from another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
Talib
To Eric
CONTINUATION OF REPLY DATED OCT. 22, 2009- 12.40 am.-
Part 5
I believe you stated as proof that Jesus is denying he is God in the following verse:
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God” (Luke 18:19) – Eric, Sep 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am.
Here is another example of Muslims trying to make the Holy Bible say what it does not say.
The question “Why do you call me good?” is just that; a question. A view I heard of this verse is: Jesus was not denying his own goodness. Jesus may also have been encouraging the person he was talking with to consider the full identity and nature of the One the person was addressing.
The next part of the verse”…No one is good but One, that is, God” is another true statement that does not say that Jesus is not God.
Luke 18:19 therefore does not say that Jesus is not God.
To Truth,
Another baffling explanation from Truth. He said:
The question “Why do you call me good?” is just that; a question. A view I heard of this verse is: Jesus was not denying his own goodness. Jesus MAY also have been encouraging the person he was talking with to consider the full identity and nature of the One the person was addressing.
My comment: First, you are not sure of your answer, you just heard a view, second you said ‘ Jesus MAY also…’ showing your uncertainty.Third,if we read Jesus statement, it is not a encouragement or confirmation about him being good, but a denial and disapproval!
( whine )Just look at Christians twisting and spinning their own book to suit their desire.
Read from your Bible commentator about this verses from Biblegateway :
Most of the account’s DIFFICULT ASPECTS come at the start. When the rich ruler calls Jesus good, the teacher REBUKES him. Apparently Jesus wants to WARN the man not to be impressed by human credentials–a problem Jesus will face later in his own life, when the Pharisees challenge his authority (20:1-8). Being excessively tied to credentialed teachers might distract the man from pursuing God. God alone is good; he is the One who deserves attention and allegiance, a key Old Testament theme (1 Chron 16:34; 2 Chron 5:13; Ps 34:8; 106:1; 118:1, 29; 136:1). Jesus is not replying to deprecates himself, but qualifying how the man views the teaching office in general. The teaching role, even for one who does it well, is not to be overly exalted. Jesus’ REFUSAL TO ACCEPT THE MAN’S FLATTERY also warns the man that Jesus will shoot straight with him.
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Luke/Humility-Trusting-All-Father
Therefore, the question” Why do you call me good?” is a rebuke, denial and refusal of his goodness in comparison to god, not as you cunningly tried to make us to understand as encouragement or approval of his goodness.
Talib
To truth,
Allow me to comment your reply to Eric about whether or not god can be seen on October 31. Eric said that god can’t be seen which I agree with him, and you said that god can be seen, in order to validate Jesus appearance as physical human and can be seen, but still can be god. Your argument goes as below:
In Exodus 33:18-20 God says no one may see God and live. As I understand it, this refers to God’s appearance as a spirit in his FULL GLORY ( as he really is and which no one may see).
However God has chosen to make his presence known by taking on a FORM temporarily on certain of occasions .
(1) -In Exodus 3:1-4 we read about God speaking from a burning bush to Moses. (The term “angel of the Lord” is used interchangebly with “Lord” and “God”).
(2) – In Exodus 24:9-11 we read about Moses and others meeting God.
(2) – In Acts 2:1-4 – we read about the presence of God appearing as tongues of fire.
My reply:
First, can you explain the pharase :God’s appearance as a spirit in his FULL GLORY’ as you stated. Does that claim means that there is occasion that God appear in His LESS GLORY? Or do you mean that God’s glory flactuate sometimes?
Now, my full reply.
1) there is striking difference between ‘angel of the Lord’ and Lord/god. The usage of the word interchangebly only show inconsistency of the statement. Beside, the word lord or god also a general term that used also for satan, not necessarily refering to the ultimate one God. The majority of translation using ‘angel of the lord’ show that the word is not referring to the unseen god who sent Jesus. I wonder how can you depend the word that used interchangebly as a proof. This only show your lack of concrete evidence and desperation.Even all commentaries agreed that it was ‘ angel of the lord’.
http://bible.cc/exodus/3-2.htm
2)Moses with others meeting God did not mean that they see Him physically as they see Jesus as human.
Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
Now please read Henry’s Concise Commentary on the Bible about this verses:
The elders saw the God of Israel; they had some GLIMPSE of his glory, though whatever they saw, it was something of which NO IMAGE NOR PICTURE could be made, yet enough to satisfy them that God was with them of a truth. Nothing is described but what was under his feet. The sapphires are the pavement under his feet; let us put all the wealth of this world under our feet, and not in our hearts
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/Matthew-Henry/Exod/Glory-Lord-Appears
3) Presence of God is not necessarily physical or in a certain form. When we pray, we feel the presence of God, but we don’t see him. We also sense the presence of God when we adore his wonderful creation like beutiful sea and sky ( or fire ). But we don’t say that sea and skies ( and fire ) is the image of god!
Therefore, I would like to insist that God can’t be seen, but Jesus can be seen, thus proving his humanness. Just ponder why your explanation is not tally with your Bible commentors. If it proves something, it only prove your disagreement, contradiction and disarray.
Talib
Allow me to comment again your reply to Eric on Oc 28.
“Then answered Jesus and said to them; Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what he sees the Father do: for whatever he does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does” (John 5:19-20).” Eric – Sept 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am.
You said that above verses only confirm Jesus divinity.
My reply: The above examples can suggest that Jesus is subservient to God and Jesus is rather impotent (rather than omnipotent) without God.
Jesus,a mesenger of god, he will do and follow whatever his Master does, out of obedience. Just like a child will learn and do whatever his parent do like talking, eating and behaving, Jesus also do whatever his god is asking him to do, such spreading the message of love and truthfulness. When a mesenger, or a child say or do whatever said and done by his master or parent, no one say that the mesenger and child are EQUAL in term of power, accaountability and right to their respective master and parent.
Finally, please answer this direct question:
1. Can God do everything himself?
2. Can god be dependent?
Talib
Allow me to comment on October 25.
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” John 5:23
You said:Notice that Jesus doesn’t say to honor him as one honors a prophet or one’s parents. Jesus very bluntly says that he must be honored in exactly the same way God is honored, i.e. Jesus is demanding the very worship due to God since the way one honors God is to worship him” – Sam Shamoun – The New Testament on the Worship given to Jesus
Its Significance and Implications for the Deity of Christ (from Answering Islam).
My reply:First, where Jesus said worship him? Honouring is very general word. You can use the word for parent, county, god etc. But the word worship is only for god. This what the proof is lacking here.The word worship is nowhere to be found.
Second, it’s natural that we demand our mesenger,our representativ even our guest or those who associate with us to be respected accordingly, just like ambassadors are treated like prime minister with immunity etc, but in the larger perspective, there are not the same/equal in term of power and right.
Since Jesus carries the message of god, it’s natural for god to demand his mesenger to be honoured, and for his mesenger to claim his right of honor. But it does not not mean equality,ie; worship.
Jesus also spoke to his disciples: Luke 10:16The person who listens to you listens to me, and the person who rejects you rejects me. The person who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
the statement above show that Jesus is demanding his disciple to be listened, accepted, obeyed and respected just like him. Does that also mean that Jesus disciple also need to be treated like him ( in your case, like a god )since Jesus said the person who rejects him rejects the one who sent him?
Honouring the mesanger of god does not make the mesenger equal to god, just like honouring the disciples of the mesenger does not make the disciples equal to mesenger!
Talib
to Talib…
just want to give some simple questions for your respond on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 5:11 am to Truth. As you were not agree that Jesus is not saying about His goodness that only God is good, can you give me some mistakes or bad things or sins that Jesus has commited that you can proof? I have found many-many errors in human even prophet in the bible but non that of Jesus. Thanks.
to Pro truth, or Julian if I may suggest.
thank you for your question. Jesus say he is not good in comparison to God.Like you are inexperienced in comparison to your parent, does not mean that you are completely naive in comparison to your kids. Jesus is good in comparison to his people, but compared to his God, only god is good. It does not mean that he has to be sinful and do bad things in order to have God be better ( or gooder ) than him.
Compared to us, of course,Jesus is good, but as human being he did things as a human, like PRAYING:
Matthew 26:44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.
He also repeated the prayer even though Christian are not encouraged to do so.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be HEARD FOR THEIR MUCH SPEAKING. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 6:5-8)”
How many times did Jesus pray over the same thing in such a small period of time? 3 times. Let us look at the following verse:
Matthew 26:39. Going a little farther, he FELL WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND AND PRAYED, “My Father, if it is possible, MAY THIS CUP be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
Jesus also pray like Muslims do, he sujud. One question: can god pray?
Talib
I read about Jesus is a racist because he called a gentile woman dog and he drew pigs into a lake ( animal cruelty ). As a Muslim, I don’t believe Isa al Masih did that.
To pro Talib
It would be good if you could quote the bible verse about which you make statements. This is to show that what you say is accurate and that you did not misread (or twist) the words of the Bible as I believe Muslims sometimes do. There is a lot of inaccurate information about the Bible and Christian beliefs among Muslims (such as the wrong idea that Christian beliefs arose from faulty tranlations of the Bible – e.g. post by Si Kitul Sep 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm and 5.20pm. and my reply to this wrong idea on Sep 12th, 2009 at 4:00 am -truth and light from the Son).
As you did not supply any Bible verses to your points, I will give them.
Matthew 15:26,27 – “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” – Jesus speaking . 27-”Yes, Lord,”she said,”but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” (NIV). This verse is part of a passage (Matthew 15:21-29).
As I understand it, (as I have heard), in the context of the passage, the point of the verse is that the Gospel was to be given first to the Jews. So Jesus is saying that the Gospel at that point in time was to be given to a specific group of people first ( the Jews – the children in the verse). Some may think that Jesus is calling non-Jews dogs (e.g.- pro Talib possibly) but as I see it, the verse is only an illustration to differentiate between two groups of people, and does not suggest that one group is better that the other.
Also the NIV translates this verse with the words “their dogs” because,( a note I am reading states that), the Greek refers to a dog in the house (i.e. a pet). That is possibly why the women says “the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” The dogs are in the master’s house; they are pets. (And I believe you will agree that, for some persons, the dog is treated like one of the family.)
So pro Talib, I believe you are mistaken in your understanding or reading that “Jesus is a racist because he called a gentile woman dog” in the Bible.
As to the point about the pigs, I wish to leave that for another day (or better still for someone else to answer.) I do not like to give long replies.
I just happen to have a Hebrew Bible and dictionary on me: I looked up Canticles 5:16
Ve-kulo mahamadim. He is altogether lovely.
mahamadim derives from the root hemed: pleasantness, loveliness. Mahmad, pl. mahamadim is defined in my dictionary as: desire, delight; darling, a precious, desirable thing; charm, loveliness. So Ve-kulo mahamadim is literally his-all (is)lovely things.
Vulgate has totus desiderabilis, DR has he is all lovely.
I don’t know if hemed is cognate with the Arabic root which apparently means praise. (I knew that some Muslims claim that Jesus’ words “I will send you the Parakletos”, should be read: “I will send you the Paraklutos” (praised one, ie Muhammed.))
Seriously though.
Bakkah ( another name of Makkah/Mecca ) mentioned in Bible
“Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of BACA make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. (From the NIV Bible, Psalms 84:5-6)”
“The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at BAKKA full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 3:96-97)”
to Talib
Thanks Talib for your kind reply. I am sure that we are both trying to understand the different between man and God. As I have mention earlier, all man on earth, including you and I, has made mistakes in our life. That’s includes all of our generations. That said that comparing God righteousness and man righteousness is un-comparable at all. What I am trying to say here is that no man is ever perfect without any mistakes in his or her life that have ever been recorded in lifetime except Jesus.
Even when people rebuked Him and at the end crucified Him, they can’t even find a single mistake on Him. MARK 14: (55) “Now the chief priests and the entire council (the Sanhedrin) were constantly seeking [to get] testimony against Jesus with a view to condemning Him and putting Him to death, but they did not find any.”
There must be something special about Jesus, of His perfection, His life that we shall ponder upon. If all mankind is sinful, who is this Jesus that is without sin?
Regarding repetitions of prayers, you must ask yourself of why Muslim’s prayed 5 times a day that keep repeating the same prayer for prophet Mohammad? That’s about 1825 times a year. It’s far more than what Jesus prayed at that moment in garden of Getsemani. By the way, Christian prays until something happen. We PUSH. ( Pray Until Something Happen ) Even when we pray for the same thing, we are not repeating the same word as if we are being programmed by it.
By keep praying, we will keep our hope and our faith alive. That’s how we fight our enemies, our weaknesses, our doubts, our worries, or to someone that we wanted to pray for. Jesus shows us as a Christian how we should pray otherwise we will become our enemies prey.
So even when Jesus who is God praying, He is showing us of how we should pray. I don’t sees any issues arise of weather God can pray or not. The question is are we pray as how we should pray?!
I believed that what ever that has been recorded in the Bible is for our own purposes by God. I believed that there’s not a single thing recorded by co-incident. There are all with a purposes, so that we can learn how and what God wanted us to do. By keep praying, we will sure find strength in time of trouble.
Jesus show’s how we should pray, how we should really pray in times of trouble. When Jesus praying, His disciples fall asleep and Jesus said to them they shall wake up and pray. Jesus life is a life that God want us to follow thru. That’s what God desires. A life that is perfect to be reckoned with.
God loves us all.
To truth,
You said: There is a lot of inaccurate information about the Bible and Christian beliefs among Muslims (such as the wrong idea that Christian beliefs arose from faulty tranlations of the Bible – e.g. post by Si Kitul Sep 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm and 5.20pm. and my reply to this wrong idea on Sep 12th, 2009 at 4:00 am -truth and light from the Son).
My reply:
First, You are THE ONE who used faulty translation of the Bible to uphold the divinity of Jesus. Not us. Aren’t you the one who brought this verses below upon challenged by Eric ‘where is in the Bible Jesus said ‘worship me”. You have not verified your stand it yet.( Funnily, you accepted that the translation is faulty after refuted by Syukri )
Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and WORSHIPED him.Matthew 28:9
Second, you have not explained clearly where the doctrine of Trinity come from? ( scriptures, personal etc ?). You still don’t reply to me who really are the authors of Bible based on tangible evidence.
Third, where in the Bible Jesus clearly say ‘worship me’. For such an important doctrine, how can you depend on synthesis? How come god tells many thing about the past and the future, about good and bad people ,but not about his divinity, the centre of Christianity?
Talib
To Truth,
You said:
Matthew 15:26,27 – “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” – Jesus speaking . 27-”Yes, Lord,”she said,”but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” (NIV). This verse is part of a passage (Matthew 15:21-29).
As a common people, I found the comparison between children ( human being ) and dog ( animal ) is improper. If righteousness sometime compared to brothers and sisters in faith and deserved sonship with god, saying someone like animal like cow, rat, mosquito etc for their race, not deed, is simply an insult for whatever reason it may be. What if someone call you Truth the dog, or bitch, or pig, you are like rat etc? Will you just duly accept that?
Jesus only preach to ‘the lost sheep of children of Israel’ before the coming the final mesenger, Prophet Muhammad who is designed to preach to all mankind. Christianity during Jesus is exlusive for Jews that the woman gentile has to persuade him and lower down his standard, and only after admittance of the lower standard of human being by the ‘bitch’ ( female dog, in this case, female gentile ), Jesus agreed to cure her son.
The example is like this. If you are not a member of an exclusive golf club, you can not enter the vicinity. That’s the principal. But if you are a worker like cleaners, caddies, general worker etc you are also allowed to enter, not because of the right or privilege, but because of the usage or manipulation. So you enter, not with respect and equality, but with contempt and insult. Just because you are allowed to enter the vicinity, do don’t claim that you are in the same position with the members of the club.
Christianity are designed to adress Jews, the ‘chosen people’. During the process, they may need to interact with gentile that they need to give some ‘crumb’ ( like allowance, overtime, health benefit for the worker in that golf club ). By doing so, it does not mean that the worker/gentile are considered part of the membership and previlege, just part of the needs. This phenomenon of exclusiveness is still relevant today with the Jews.
So, gentile according to Biblical Jesus, only deserved crumb, not even leftover. If you consider dog as part of family, you usually give the dog proper meal, occasional bath, evening walking etc. You don’t give only crumb. Correct?
When finally Constantine the gentile converted to Christianity to unite his kingdom, and during the process adjusted the faith to suit paganism ( trinity, using of images etc, ) to appeal the mass, gentile are accepted to Christianity massively. Not by personal approval of Jesus during his lifetime.
The essence of racism still found in Christianity nowaday. You have white church and black church. In Latin America and Philipines, you have colonial spanish church and native church. I wonder when you will have black as pope.
Prophet Muhammad is not a racist. He has companions ranging from slaves, aristocrats, commoner, black, brown and white during his time. Muslim key players in history are not Arab. Abbasid dynasty is largely Persian, Andalusian caliphate are arab european, Mamluk dynasty are African, Ayyubid are kurdish, Ottoman are turkish etc. The most populous Muslim nation are not arab. They are Malay in Indonesia( if you consider people who speak Malay as Malay like in Malaysian Constitution).
People who profess Islam as their religion and Arab as their nationality ranging the most white people of Mediterranean ( Labenon, Jordan and Syria ) to the most blackest people of Africa ( Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea ). This show the colour blindedness nature of Islam. Muslim don’t see other people as dog or animal or people in different colours. Can you show me an English who is black?
Please read history buddy. Do not look Islam in your coocon of Christianity.
Please understand that as a Muslim, we don’t find fault with Jesus. It’s clear from my beginning. Our argument is about YOUR treatment and claim to Jesus in your scripture.
Finally, having sinless Jesus does not qualify him to be god. Sin is humanly measure for people to reach god. God is above that measure. If we take human measure to judge a god, then god in OT are the most sinful being because he destroyed people including their innocent babies and do nonsense things.
Talib
Salim is my co worker. We share the same computer and same interest in religion. That why his name appear in my answer.
Talib
Hi,
My comment about the word Mahamad, (a corrupt version of Muhammad ) appear in Hebrew Bible was erased. I saw it two days ago. Is it deliberated? Can someone do something. Thank you.
Daniel
For the benefit of all, I write it here again.
According to Holy Qur’an the name of prophet Muhammad or Ahmad (p.b.u.h) is mention by name in the Gospel (Injeel):
“And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One).” (Qur’an 61:6)
If you refer to Song of Solomon in Hebrew scripture, the name ‘Muhammad’ also mention there, please read Song of Solomon 5:16 it looks like this:
“Hikow mamtaqiym wkulow MAHAMADiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim.”
Salam to all.
Interesting part about Muhammad mentioned in Bible you brought up Daniel. I would like to add in my personal observation.
Al Quran says:33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the SEAL of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
The transliteration goes like this: Ma kana muhammadun aba ahadin min rijalikum walakin rasoola Allahi wa KHATAM alnnabiyyeena wakana Allahu bikulli shayin AAaleeman.
Muhammad Asad, or Lewis Leopold, a Quranic commentor said: the last of the prophets, just as a seal (khatam) marks the end of a document; apart from this, the term khatam is also synonymous with khitam, the “end” or “conclusion” of a thing: from which it follows that the message revealed through Muhammad – the Qur’an – must be regarded as the culmination and the end of all prophetic revelation (cf. note on the first sentence of the second paragraph of 5:48, and note 126 on 7:158). See also note 102 on 21:107.(Quran Ref: 33:40 )
http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/
Now click Aramaic Bible with interlinear English translation.
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/4_John/Yukhnch14.pdf
Look at footnote for John 14:16. I’ve copied and pasted here for our convenience.
1. PRQL A has been CONFUSED with the Greek ‘Paraclitus’, meaning ‘Advocate.’
The Aramaic construct
PRQL A is derived from two Aramaic roots:
PRQ (‘To end’, ‘To finish’ or ‘To save’, see Strong’s Concordance entries 6561 and 6562) and
L A (‘The curse’, cf. Marqus 11:21, Matti 5:44, ‘A Compendious Syriac Dictionary’, page 236, and
Oraham’s Dictionary, page 250).
PRQL A means ‘Redeemer’ or ‘One who ends the curse.’ By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, our fallen nature has been redeemed from the curse of Adam.
End of the comment.
My comment, according to Aramaic Bible commentator, they are not only refusing the common meaning for PRQ as ‘advocate’ by mainstream Christians, they even change it to Redeemer. ( or whatever they say it ).
What strike me the most is the literal word, PRQ according to Aramaic language means ‘ to FINISH, or to SAVE.
So,
1.PRQ according to Aramaic is to finish, to end.
2.KHATAM in arabic means seal, end, finish, conclude
Therefore, the verses must be understood like this:
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another PRQ ( the one who will end, finish and conclude = Seal or KHATAM in Arabic = Prophet Muhamad ), to be with you forever,
Interesting. Isn’t it?
Syukri
To Salim
You say:”Jesus only preach to ‘the lost sheep of children of Israel’ before the coming the final mesenger, Prophet Muhammad who is designed to preach to all mankind.” – Salim, Nov 4th, 2009 at 6:32 pm. Are you trying to mislead everyone by saying that the Christian message is only meant for the Jews and Islam is meant for the whole world? Or are you in error?
It is written -”….All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus). Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…” (Matthew 28:18-19). Please note it is stated that disciples are to be made from ALL NATIONS. So among the last recorded words of Lord Jesus is a command to spread the Christian message to all the world.
Also you say:”When finally Constantine the gentile converted to Christianity to unite his kingdom, and during the process adjusted the faith to suit paganism ( trinity, using of images etc, ) to appeal the mass, gentile are accepted to Christianity massively. Not by personal approval of Jesus during his lifetime.” – Salim, Nov 4th, 2009 at 6:32 pm.
Here you have given a fine example of Islamic propaganda and twisting of facts of history to suit your inaccurate Islamic viewpoint. You mentioned Constantine “adjusted the faith to suit paganism ( TRINITY, using of images etc, ) to appeal the mass” – Salim. You are in error here for the idea of TRINITY (and therefore the belief in the Trinity)is mentioned in the New Testament which was written down before Constantine was born. (The name “Trinity” is a convenient way that Christians refer to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The word “Trinity” itself does not exist in the New Testament). So the idea of Trinity (or the belief that Jesus is God) is not something that Constantine invented or added to Christian belief as you seem to suggest.
Also, would you like to explain ” gentile are accepted to Christianity massively. Not by personal approval of Jesus during his lifetime. ” What do you mean by this? Jesus gave a command ( and therefore his approval) to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:18-19). That statement -”Not by personal approval of Jesus during his lifetime.” looks like it is designed to mislead. Or did you make a mistake?
To Truth,
You wrote:
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus). Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…” (Matthew 28:18-19).
My reply:
According to Greek Bible definition, ‘nations’ here means: host, multitude, people (probably from ????? (ethnos 1484) custom, usage, manners, etc.), a number of people living together bound together by like habits and customs; then generally PEOPLE , TRIBE, nation, with reference to the connection with each other rather than the separation from others by descent, language or constitution.
http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
Here is the transliteration of the above verses :poreuthentes math?teusate panta ta ETHNE baptizontes autous eis to onoma tou patros kai tou uiou kai tou agiou pneumatos
http://mlbible.com/matthew/28-19.htm
The word in Greek Bible for ‘nations’ is ethne, where the word ‘ethnic’ is derived from.
ETHNIC:
adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a GROUP (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
3. being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic
It’s like this. Jew is a nation consist of many ethnic ( 12 tribes ), just like Chinese nation consist of many ethnic ( Han, Hakka, Cantonese etc ).
Therefore, the verses must be understood, like this:
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus). Therefore, go and make disciples of all TRIBES ( of Jewish ethnics ), baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…” (Matthew 28:18-19).
Considering the possibility of fault translation through the ages and repeated revision process, plus Biblical Jesus calling the gentile as dog, I insist that the world nation here does not mean people out of Jew sphere. ( Si Kitul stories are relevant here ).
Syukri
To Daniel
You say-”According to Holy Qur’an the name of prophet Muhammad or Ahmad (p.b.u.h) is mention by name in the Gospel (Injeel):
“…. Jesus son of Mary said: ….! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One).” (Qur’an 61:6). -Daniel Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Here, I can understand what you are trying to say only if I take those terms (Injeel, Torah) as I believe you understand them. I wish here to point out that my (Christian) understanding of the word Torah refers only to the first 5 books of Moses in the Old Testament. The Gospel (Injeel) refers to some books in the New Testament. As such, the name of Muhammad does not appear in the Injeel or the Torah.
As to the sounds in Hebrew that form what sounds like ‘Muhammad’, it is (as you state), found in the – Song of Solomon 5:16 : “Hikow mamtaqiym wkulow MAHAMADiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim.” – Daniel, Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am -
I reproduce here the translation from the ESV Bible -
His mouth is most sweet, and he is altogether desirable.This is my beloved and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. – Song of Solomon 5:16
I do not speak Hebrew. What I have read what one person who speaks Hebrew says is that the word “MAHAMADiym” means “my delight” in English. So the word “”MAHAMADiym” is just a description and not a name.
I mention this here because when the Hebrew bible is translated into another language, the Hebrew word “MAHAMADiym” which sound like Muhammad’s name disappears.
I read of one Muslim’s question, on the Internet, asking why Muhammad’s name is not found in the English version of the Bible but was found in the Hebrew Bible. His mistake was thinking that “MAHAMADiym” is a name. It is not. It is just a word describing something. So Muhammmad’s name is not found in Song of Solomon 5:16. It is just a coincidence that certain Hebrew words may sound like Muhammad’s name.
To give you another example of coincidence:- There was, not too long ago, a lady Prime Minister of Pakistan who was assassinated.Her name, by coincidence, sounds, in the Malay language like a part of female genitals. What connection is there a between the late Prime Minister’s name and a woman’s genitals.
So Muslims are trying hard to make Muhammad appear in the Bible (as a true prophet), even going to the extent of misinterpreting(twisting) the words in the Bible. Muhammad does not appear in the Bible (as a true prophet.)
To Salim
This is with reference to your post about the Valley of Baca -(see Psalms 84:5-6) (Salim post Nov 3rd, 2009 at 6:16 pm) and your attempt (as I see it), to connect it with Mecca.
Rather than answer that question, I wish to share an observation.
It seems to me that some Muslims (like yourself) are trying to establish the validity of the Quran, Muhammad and Islam by, oddly, referring to the Christian Bible. Why is that so? Perhaps it is because these Muslims are aware of the greatness of Jesus Christ and the predictions of the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament.
The question then arises – ‘How can Muhammad be a great prophet and also the SEAL OF THE PROPHETS if there is no prediction of his coming? (In their minds they think that there must be predictions of Muhammd’s coming. Otherwise it becomes questionable that Muhammad was a great prophet or even a true prophet.)
Also, some Muslims will try to show that the Bible points to Islam (like your post on the Valley of Baca) to establish Islam’s validity (to Christians at least).
This attempt to show a connection or continuity between the Bible and the Quran leads to some CREATIVE INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible from Muslims, which I find entertaining. (e.g. – Please see my reply to Daniel -Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:14 pm, truth and light from the Son. Here Daniel tries to convince everybody that Muhammad’s name is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16 in Hebrew. This is glaringly wrong but very entertaining to read.)
Another popular fairy-tale in Islam is the one which states that Muhammad is the Prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 .
Syukri post (Nov 5th, 2009 at 12:03 pm) shows that the Islamic fiction that Muhammad is the promised one to come after Jesus (rather the Holy Spirit) is very mush alive.
This attempts by Muslims to show what they believe to be the truth of Islam from the Bible is problematic. This is because Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted. So Muslims become very selective in their reading of the Bible. (For example, Muslims will try to find verses that seem to suggest Jesus is not God BUT at the same time ignoring all the verses that suggest that Jesus is God.) Where is objectivity?
FYI, I have even come across statements that Muhammad was predicted in the HINDU holy scriptures. I do not think that this idea of Muhammad being predicted in the HINDU scriptures
is a central idea in Islam. But I wonder? I wonder about the motivation to try to prove that Muhammad’s coming was predicted. For some Muslims, it could be that if there is no predictions about Muhammad in the Bible (the earlier Holy Books), there is no connection with the past prophets, and Islam is not true.
To Syukri
This is in reply to your post; (Syukri – Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:28 pm )- where you put forward your idea that the Christian message is not meant for the non-Jews ( Syukri -” I insist that the world nation here does not mean people out of Jew sphere. “)
My reply is with a Bible verse : Acts 44 – 48” 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out EVEN ON THE GENTILES. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47″Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.” (NIV) – CAPITALS mine
In the book of Acts (after Jesus had gone back to heaven) we see the Christian message moving out of the “Jew sphere”. So Syukri, YOU ARE WRONG. God intends for the Gentiles to know Jesus Christ as Saviour as well as the Jews.
In Acts 1:8“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Here Syukri, will you say that Jesus wants the disciples of Jesus to spread the Christian message “to the ends of the earth” to the Jews only?
You cannot admit that you are wrong, can you? It is amazing that you would go against the logic and common sense in language to avoid accepting what the Bible teaches; that is Lord Jesus intended for the Christian message to be preached to everyone, Jew and Gentile. I urge you to open up your closed and biased mind before it is too late.
To All
Sorry for the typo – the verse is Acts 10:44-48 in my last post
Hi all,
From my observations, it is clear that Truth has commenting or sharing to us the truth on a strong Bible bases ground. Continue your good deeds Truth. Our prayer is behind you.
To all, we should no longer about finding the truth here, but to accept the truth because the truth is already here for us to have. So guys, time is short. Let us draw to God Himself and not to religion. Let us think of how to get into heaven rather than choose which religions we want to follow.
Religion to me is like a bus, yes it you can enter it, yes you can travel in it but it can’t bring you up. You have to get the right mode to go up. That is God. So, I believe as a Christian, we are not interested in finding someone to be a mere Christian but to find truth in God and leads to their salvations.
God bless you all.
To Truth,
Thanks for your comment. Actually, I don’t need to use that verses in Bible to affirm the prophethood of Muhammad. I believe him based on his accuracy and consistency of his statement, his exalted characteristic and universal teaching of Quran. My comment about word ‘mahamad’ was just an observation. We Muslim don’t depend our conviction of Muhamad based on that verses.
But it is not a secret that Bible has underwent vigorous process of translations and revisions that many original names and pronunciation have been changed like Jesus Christ is actually ‘Eashoa Msheekha’ in original Aramaic pronunciation, as it is Isa Al Masih in Quran.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/eesa.htm
And this pronunciation amazingly supported by Aramaic speaking Christians ( if you think that muslim commentary above is biased ).
http://www.v-a.com/bible/
Coming back about the word of Muhammad in Bible, one interesting part comes from answer.com:
Paraclete comes from the Koine Greek word ?????????? (parákl?tos, “one who consoles, one who intercedes on our behalf, a comforter or an advocate”).[1] It may reflect a translation of the Hebrew word ???????? (m?na???m “comforter”). According to Walter Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature: “the technical meaning ‘lawyer’, ‘attorney’ is rare.” The word appears only in Johannine writings of the New Testament.
http://www.answers.com/topic/paraclete
It said: it may reflect a translation of the Hebrew word ‘ MENAHHEM’. Now, by considering the repetitive faulty translations ( admitted by truth ) and wrong pronunciation ( admitted by Aramaic Christians ) in Bible, compare the word ‘ MENAHHEM’ and ‘MUHAMMAD. Who can guarantee the the word has not been twisted?
Of course, Christians will deny this again and again. But we have to pity them, because what they have is only translation of translated translated translated books.
The ‘myth’ among Muslims that the original Bible (with the precise name of MUHAMMAD of course ) is hidden in the Vatican library is not exclusive to Muslims, but surprisingly shared by Christians:
The leadership of the Catholic Church knows very well that the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures in the Vatican Library are the original Scriptures, but they have not chosen to make this fact known openly. Personally I believe the Catholic Church will someday bring this fact out into the open. It is really going to be the will of the Lord that determines when. The power of the Catholic Church is greater than the power of all the Orthodox and all the Eastern Churches.
http://www.v-a.com/bible/
So Muslims are not trying hard to make Muhammad appear in the Bible (as a true prophet) because we do not need that, and we don’t go to the extent of misinterpreting(twisting) the words in the Bible. You christians are the one who twist you own book in the Bible.( like bow become worship. An example of faulty Bible translation admitted by Truth )
Allah said in The Holy Quran 3:78:And, behold, there are indeed some among them who distort the Bible with their tongues, so as to make you think that [what they say] is from the Bible, the while it is not from the Bible; and who say, “This is from God,” the while it is not from God: and thus do they tell a lie about God, being well aware [that it is a lie].
Daniel Al Muslim
To truth,
You said:It seems to me that some Muslims (like yourself) are trying to establish the validity of the Quran, Muhammad and Islam by, oddly, referring to the Christian Bible. Why is that so? Perhaps it is because these Muslims are aware of the greatness of Jesus Christ and the predictions of the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament.
Here is my reply. The problem between us will be solved if I believe your book, or you believe in mine. But it did not happen so. I cannot prove my case if I use Quran alone. We Muslim just try to show that, even Bible, if understood correctly ( we believe most of Bible is corrupted attested by Christians themselves by their disagreement of what constitute as a Bible ), can be use to validate Quran and Islam.
Can this work? Yes. This happened before during Prophet Muhammad time when a group of Jew and Christian priest came to prophet to check his prophethood and later they embrace Islam after finding correlation between Bible prediction and him.
In The Holy Quran 5:82 Thou wilt surely find that, of all people, the most hostile to those who believe [in this divine writ] are the Jews as well as those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught beside God; and thou wilt surely find that, of all people, [96] they who say, “Behold, we are Christians,” come closest to feeling affection for those who believe [in this divine writ]: this is so because there are priests and monks among them, and because these are not given to arrogance. 5:83 For, when they come to understand what has been bestowed from on high upon this Apostle, thou canst see their eyes overflow with tears, because they recognize something of its truth; [98] [and] they say: “O our Sustainer! We do believe; make us one, then, with all who bear witness to the truth.
Does that still relevant in our modern time? Yes. One christian priest embrace Islam after comparing Bible and Muhammad. His name is David Benjamin.
http://www.answers.com/topic/david-benjamin-keldani
his famous quote :I must remind the Christians that unless they believe in the absolute unity of God, and renounce the belief in the three persons, they are certainly unbelievers in the true God … The Old Testament and the Qur’an condemn the doctrine of three persons in God; the New Testament does not expressly hold or defend it, but even if it contains hints and traces concerning the Trinity, it is no authority at all, because it was neither seen nor written by Christ himself, nor in the language he spoke, nor did it exist in its present form and contents for – at least – the first two centuries after him.
You asked:So Muslims become very selective in their reading of the Bible. (For example, Muslims will try to find verses that seem to suggest Jesus is not God BUT at the same time ignoring all the verses that suggest that Jesus is God.) Where is objectivity?
Here is my reply. Having stating our stand toward Bible, being selective is natural. You are also being selective where you will try to find verses that seem to suggest Jesus is God BUT at the same time ignoring all the verses that suggest that Jesus is not a God( like Jesus pray, Jesus is a human, Jesus has a god who is greater than him etc that you still has not replied to Talib).
where is YOUR objectivity?
Salim
To truth,
Can you name me a disiple of Jesus who is not a Jew to show that the message is really for Jew and Gentile confirmed by his action during his life?
To Daniel
You say : ‘Allah said in The Holy Quran 3:78: And, behold, there are indeed some among them WHO DISTORT THE BIBLE WITH THEIR TONGUES, so as to make you think that [what they say] is from the Bible, the while it is not from the Bible; and who say, “This is from God,” the while it is not from God: and thus do they tell a lie about God, being well aware [that it is a lie].’ – Daniel, Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm.
I had intended to share another point about the Quran later on. But since you have provided a verse from the Quran that I was looking for, I shall mention the point now.
Christian scholars who study the Bible and the Quran state that the Quran does not say that the Bible is corrupted. What the Quran seems to say is that Christians twist the meaning of the words (that is, their interpretation is not correct)- e.g. “among them WHO DISTORT THE BIBLE WITH THEIR TONGUES..” – from The Holy Quran 3:78- Daniel, Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm. (I emphasize the words WITH THEIR TONGUE)
This, as I see it, creates a problem for Muslims. This implies that the Quran is saying the Bible (during the time of Muhammad, at least) was not corrupted. (Otherwise, the Quran would state that the Christians change the word of God with their hand rather than with their tongue. From my reading I know that there are complete Bibles from the year 400 A.D. (roughly) onwards. (Incomplete Bibles – even earlier). This is about 200 years before the time of Muhammad. The message of the Bibles then is the same as the Bibles of today, (though in different languages, e.g. Greek, Latin…) that is Jesus is God, Jesus died on the
Cross and rose from the dead..etc.
Muslims , I feel, will want to avoid or deny these facts because of the resulting difficulties.(e.g. – If Muslims accept that the Bibles from 400 A.D. is accurate to the original message, then it would suggest the Quran is false.) Muslims must believe that sometime between the time of Jesus and 400 A.D. the original message of the ALMIGHTY GOD was lost and God had to have another prophet come to restore the original message. This idea is ridiculous to my ears (and it is not my intention to insult). But that is what Muslims believe.
Also, is it possible to have two different messages with both messages (the Bible and the words of Muhammad that he says are from God) being true (though they contradict each other) both existing at the same time during the time of Muhammad and with Muhammad implying that the Bible (during his time, at least, was accurate). (for more discussion points, please go to Answering Islam – and look up Bible and Quran.
Hi truth,
I just can’t help it but to notice this…
This idea is ridiculous to my ears – truth and light from the Son
So, how ridiculuous is it to your ears? As ridiculous as the doctrine of trinity is?
And also can you please reply to Syukri’s question of:
Can you name me a disiple of Jesus who is not a Jew to show that the message is really for Jew and Gentile confirmed by his action during his life?
It will be interesting to see your reply.
To Syukri
You ask – “Can you name me a disiple of Jesus who is not a Jew to show that the message is really for Jew and Gentile confirmed by his action during his life?- Syukri, Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:10 pm.
I wish to answer that question with a Bible verse: John 3:16-18 “16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. – (NIV)
Please take note, Jesus is referring to the saving of THE WORLD.
It would be very interesting to see you try to restrict the word WORLD to the ‘world of the Jews only’ as you tried to do with the word ‘NATIONS’ in you post where you say -”It’s like this. Jew is a nation consist of many ethnic ( 12 tribes ), just like Chinese nation consist of many ethnic ( Han, Hakka, Cantonese etc ).Therefore, the verses must be understood, like this:
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus). Therefore, go and make disciples of all TRIBES ( of Jewish ethnics ), baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…” (Matthew 28:18-19). – Syukri Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:28 pm.
Syukri, you have added the words “(of Jewish ethnics)” to the Word of God. God will deal with you.
To continue, as I understand it, it does not matter if the word NATIONS in Matthew 28:18-19 is understood as countries or tribes. Even in my reading of modern politics in the newspapers, the word NATIONS (as explained by the journalist) refers not just to an area of land but to a group of people sharing common characteristics like looks, language, religion, culture..etc. You are deliberately attempting to mislead by restricting the word NATIONS to the tribes of Israel, rather than to all tribes in all the world.
In answer to your question, as far as I know, all the original 12 disciples of Jesus were Jews. I guess you are trying to score points here by using this to suggest that this shows Jesus’ message is for the Jews only. However, the words of Jesus in John 3:16 refers to the whole world. Do you wish to go against the words Jesus?
Hi Truth,
Just an observation to add if you don’t mind…
in Numbers 23:19 it is stated that “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind.”
You saw that? NOR A SON OF MAN THAT HE SHOULD CHANGE HIS MIND.
In (Matthew 10:5-7), we see that Jesus said:
“Go nowhere among the Gentiles (non-Jews), and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (the Jews). And preach as you go, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand”
Jesus said “…go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (the Jews).”
If God is not a son of man that he should change his mind, so whats up with John 3:16-18 then that says:
“16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. – (NIV)
Is god fickle minded here or Jesus is really a son of man and not a god?
To Bible is corrupted
You ask: “Is god fickle minded here or Jesus is really a son of man and not a god?” -Nov 8th, 2009 at 3:44 am.
It is not a question of God (or Jesus) being fickle-minded but rather it is a question of timing. From my reading, the good news about the the kingdom of heaven was to be proclaimed first to the Jews . This idea was mentioned in an earlier post by me in which I quoted – Matthew 15:26,27 – “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” – Jesus speaking . 27-”Yes, Lord,”she said,”but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” (NIV). This verse is part of a passage (Matthew 15:21-29). A note on this passage, I am reading, also indicates that Jesus is saying the gospel (though it applies to the whole world) was to be given first to the Jews.
Later on (Matthew 28:18-19) Jesus commands that disciples be made from all nations (that is, including all tribes and people).
It is true that John 3:16 applies to all the world but as I understand it, at the time that this truth was being taught, it was being taught first to a Jew named Nicodemus.
Thank you for your question.
Hi Truth
From my reading, the good news about the the kingdom of heaven was to be proclaimed first to the Jews – truth and light from the Son
It looks to me like favouratism was being practised here. How just is that for a God?
to Truth,
You said:
Christian scholars who study the Bible and the Quran state that the Quran does not say that the Bible is corrupted. What the Quran seems to say is that Christians twist the meaning of the words (that is, their interpretation is not correct)- e.g. “among them WHO DISTORT THE BIBLE WITH THEIR TONGUES..” – from The Holy Quran 3:78- Daniel, Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm. (I emphasize the words WITH THEIR TONGUE)
This, as I see it, creates a problem for Muslims. This implies that the Quran is saying the Bible (during the time of Muhammad, at least) was not corrupted. (Otherwise, the Quran would state that the Christians change the word of God with their hand rather than with their tongue. From my reading I know that there are complete Bibles from the year 400 A.D. (roughly) onwards. (Incomplete Bibles – even earlier). This is about 200 years before the time of Muhammad.
My reply:
1)Good try! But you are wrong. Quran has stated that the Christians change the word of God WITH THEIR HAND, precisely contrary to you your statement.
Allah said in the Holy Quran:2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book WITH THEIR OWN HANDS, and then say:”This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
How can you write a long essay based on only your imagination? It’s amusing anyway.
2) Thank God that finally you admit that Bible only complete from the year 400 A.D and roughly onward. Meaning that complete Bible did not exist before that, at least shortly after the demise of Jesus. This confirm that Bible did not come from Jesus per se, ( if so, then there must be a Bible already, since this is ‘the word of god’ ) but rather from authors ( which are unknown ) who penned down what they assumed ( from oral tradition, remaining scribble etc ) as the word of god.
Thank you. I admit you to stop reading from Answering Islam, it’s pathetic.
Daniel Al Muslim
rephrase: I advice you to stop reading from Answering Islam. It’s pathetic. read Answering Christianity instead if you are a man and refute them.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/muhammad_fruits.htm
Compare your ‘ only complete 400 A.D Bible’ with Quran.
Quran recorded and memorized during prophet Muhammad life, immediately compiled after his death by Caliph Abu Bakr, and standardized during Caliph Uthman, fit to be the universal everlasting clear word of the Almighty God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran
To Daniel
with reference to you post – Daniel,Nov 8th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
I am only sharing with you what I have read. The points that support the idea that the Quran says the Christian misinterpret the bible rather than re-wrote it I read in Answering Islam. (There are very many articles there). I do not wish to go deeper into this debate as I am less familiar with it than other topics. I only high- light it for those who wish to find out more.
However, I wish to refer to one point in your writing -:”But you are wrong. Quran has stated that the Christians change the word of God WITH THEIR HAND, precisely contrary to you your statement.
Allah said in the Holy Quran:2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book WITH THEIR OWN HANDS, and then say:”This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. -Daniel, Nov 8th, 2009 at 8:44 pm.
Here I wonder if your reading of the Quran is correct. (Or are you taking a few verses from the Quran and using it to attack Christian beliefs, but those verses do not apply to Christians.) The Christian writers who quoted this passage referred to it as -”Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith (2:78-79 MP). – Some of the Jews who were transgressors and did not know the Book wrote false scripture: – from Answering Islam – What does the Quran say about the Jewish and Christian Scripture.
The Quran at times criticizes the Jews, and at other times the Christians (if I understand correctly). Are you applying those Quranic verses correctly? I will leave it at that.
To Daniel
You say: “Thank God that finally you admit that Bible only complete from the year 400 A.D and roughly onward. ” – Daniel,Nov 8th, 2009 at 8:44 pm.
You misunderstand me, (or is it my fault that I did not make myself sufficiently clear. If so I apologize). I said ” From my reading I know that there are complete Bibles from the year 400 A.D. (roughly) onwards. ” -truth and light from the Son, Nov 8th, 2009 at 12:46 am .
This means that archaeologist and historians have discovered complete Bibles only up to 400 A.D. roughly. (There may be complete Bibles earlier than that which have yet to appear.) Earlier than that, only parts of Bibles and fragments survive. It is not my purpose to show when all the books of the Bible were first collected to form one collection.
My question is – How do Muslims explain the fact that Bibles which exist 200 years before Muhammad (and the earlier – parts of Bibles and fragments) say the same things as Bibles do today (i.e. – Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead, the Trinity.. etc.). This is one explanation I wish to hear (because it contradicts the Quran before the Quran appeared.)
(Regarding your statements about the Bible appearing from 400 A.D. roughly, I do not feel a need to reply as the statements arose from a misunderstanding.)
Truth,
You asked:The Quran at times criticizes the Jews, and at other times the Christians (if I understand correctly). Are you applying those Quranic verses correctly? I will leave it at that.
The answer is easy: Quran refers peple of the book ( ahlul kitab ) to Jews and Christians. There is no contradiction because Christians also using Jewish books ( OT ) as their holy book, and early Christians are Jews ( Jesus, apostles etc ). So the verses I mentioned are applicable to Jews and Christians. No problem here.
Daniel
To Truth,
You said:This means that archaeologist and historians have discovered complete Bibles only up to 400 A.D. roughly. (There may be complete Bibles earlier than that which have yet to appear.) Earlier than that, only parts of Bibles and fragments survive. It is not my purpose to show when all the books of the Bible were first collected to form one collection.
My reply: Your reply is a self explanatory about the uncertainties of Bible. You implied that before 400 A.D, there is no complete Bible. This show doubt about the origin of the Bible and how it completed. Isn’t that Bible come from Jesus and his disciples? If that so, there must be Bible already when Jesus died. 400 years is a long time you know. Many things could happen. Another question is, what book did Christians rely on during that period of vacuum? Incomplete Bible?
Now, please solve above question first before I can look at your question. Jesus never died on the cross, rose from the dead, trinity if we depend on HIS historical account. He never ask to be worshiped, he also ask Allah to save him from the cross which was granted, and he never rise from the dead because he was ascended to heaven as we Muslim believe. The problem is you only refer to a book ( collections of stories, fragment etc ) not endorsed by Jesus himself because it only finalized after 400 years after his demise. This is really what Allah means:
”Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from HEARSAY. They but GUESS. Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith” Quran 3:78
You only guess from hearsay compiled into a book called Bible for a period of 400 years . No proof.
Daniel
The good thing about Quran is: it is immediately memorized by companions of Prophet Muhammad and written down by “kuttab Al Wahy” the writers of Revelation like Zaid bin Thabit and Muawiyah Abu Sufyan during prophet time.
When prophet passed away, Quran immediately compiled from fragments and memories of companion during Caliph Abu Bakar and kept by caliph as a reference for Muslim. Quran at that time still maintain the different accent of Arabic due to many scattered Arabic tribes at that time.
During Caliph Uthman, there was a need for a standardized version of Quran because Islam already spread to non-Arab ( Persian, Egyptian, Greek etc ) and they need a standard Quran applicable to all, Arab and non-arab. The Uthmani Quran is the official standard of Quran endorsed by companions of Prophet, while they are free to keep their version of Quran.
What differ Quran from Bible is, Quran enjoy the benefit of a system; a stable government where it preservation and compilation is sanctioned by the Islamic state and by united and streamlined effort by the all righteous caliphs who witnessed the Prophet Muhammad.
Unlike Bible where at the early stage, Christians are prosecuted and the compilation of the book was hindered and lost in many transitions plus the chaotic nature of it’s process. Jesus is a Jew who use Hebrew text as a base of his teaching ( OT ), but he speak Aramaic in his saying, then his saying translated to Greek, then to Latin and English. Tell me how can you be sure of the authenticity of the Book due to this complex zigzagging path ways it has to pass before it finally ‘completed’?
Daniel Al Muslim
To All
From my reading and writing these past few weeks, I think I see a pattern within Islamic beliefs. The pattern, as I see it, is :
Muslims believe that the prophets came to specific groups of people and spoke to these groups of people in their own language. The message of the prophets were not meant for those outside the specific groups. Muhammad was special because his message was for the whole world.
I wish to mention this observation now as I think it helps to explain Muslim’s negative reaction to certain ideas held by Christians which on the surface looks rather harmless. For example :
Christians believe the New Testament was written in GREEK (by disciples of Jesus e.g. Peter, James, Paul, …or assistants to original disciples e.g. Mark and Luke).
This causes problems for the Muslim because it would indicate that -
1) the message of Jesus and the writings of the disciples of Jesus were not written down in Aramaic(or Hebrew) originally (though Jesus and the disciples had Aramaic as the Mother tongue.) This is in contradiction to Muslim thinking, as I understand it, that the message of a prophet came to a specific group of people and the prophet conveyed his message in the language of the people he was sent to.
2) Greek was the international language of that time, (like English is today). So writing in Greek meant that the message could reach a wider audience. (That is a view I read.) This also indicates that the message was not meant for the Jews alone (- please refer to Matthew 28:18-19 . This also contradicts the Islamic view that the message of Jesus was meant for the Jews only. ( Please see the post by the Muslim -Syukri Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:28 pm and my reply -truth and light from the Son Nov 7th, 2009 at 3:08 am wth the verse is Acts 10:44-48 and also :truth and light from the Son,Nov 8th, 2009 at 2:01 am). So the Muslim’s claim (from my reading) that Muhammad is special because only Muhammad’s message is for the whole world is in contradiction to the claims of Jesus.
Another possible reason why Muslims would prefer to believe that the New Testament was written in Aramaic rather than Greek is because it allows for the possibility of errors in translation to explain the differences between the New Testament and the Quran. This idea becomes impossible if the New Testament was originally written in Greek.( So we see post by Muslims casting doubt on the idea that the New Testament was written in Greek by Jesus’ earliest followers – e.g.: -”The ‘myth’ among Muslims that the original Bible (with the precise name of MUHAMMAD of course ) is hidden in the Vatican library is not exclusive to Muslims, but surprisingly shared by Christians:
The leadership of the Catholic Church knows very well that the Ancient ARAMAIC Scriptures in the Vatican Library are the original Scriptures, but they have not chosen to make this fact known openly.” – Daniel,Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm.
Any comments?
GOOD READING ABOUT THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF BIBLE, FROM ARAMAIC SPEAKING CHRISTIANS.
The language in which the Scriptures were recorded was the common language of Mesopotamia and the known world at the time, which today scholars in the West refer to as Ancient Aramaic. The Jewish scholars of Judaism still refer to the language as Ashurit, which was the language spoken and written at Nineveh in the days of Jonah the Prophet. This is the language of the Men of Nineveh that Eashoa (Jesus) referred to in Matthew 12:39-41. It was the language that was spoken in Galilee, the language from which Eashoa (Jesus) read the Scriptures throughout his ministry.
The Emperor Constantine attempted to silence this language by killing the priests and theologians of the Ancient Church of the East in the 4th Century AD, but he did not succeed in killing them all. The few members of the Ancient Church of the East that escaped from Asia Minor (University of Urhai) did preserve the Scriptures in the Ancient Aramaic language. They were the descendants of the Men of Nineveh and ever since 612 BC the Ashurai nation has not had a country of its own. The only thing they have left now is their Ancient Scriptures, which are the original ones compiled by the Apostle Paul. They have been hand-copied continuously ever since the Apostolic Age.
The original Scriptures have also survived in Egypt (Coptic), Ethiopia (Ethiopic), Iraq (Chaldean), Iran (Syriac), Turkey (Jacobite), and other Eastern Churches in the World. All of these Scriptures are in different scripts, but the language is the same. Today, the Western churches refer to this language as the Ancient Aramaic. This is not the original name of the language, but we have no choice but to use this term as it is the current accepted term in the English language. The Ancient Church of the East has always referred to this language as the Ancient Tongue (Leeshana Ateeqah). However, regardless of the script of all these churches, the Scriptures are identical. The only differences are in pronunciation because of the different dialects, just as at the time of Eashoa (Jesus), Mary Magdalene spoke with the Hebrew dialect, while Shimmun Keepa (Peter) spoke with the Galilean dialect.
The Ancient Aramaic Scriptures were translated into Greek by the Greek converts during the Apostolic Age. The Greeks did not convert to Christianity at the time of Eashoa (Jesus), while the Ashurai people (the descendants of the Men of Nineveh) converted to Christianity at the time of Eashoa (Jesus). Their King Abgar wrote a letter to Eashoa (Jesus). Abgar had leprosy and Eashoa (Jesus) sent two of his disciples and healed King Abgar, and the king converted to Christianity together with the whole remnant of the Ashurai nation. Other nations also converted to Christianity during the Apostolic Age, such as the Chaldeans and the Armenians. However, the Greeks did not.
Therefore, the Greek Bibles were translated by a few converts, even though later the Greeks also turned to Christianity and so did the Romans, after the Emperor Constantine adopted Christianity and brought it to Rome and established the Catholic Church.
However, Christianity had been preached to the Europeans throughout the Apostolic Age by the disciples and apostles of Eashoa (Jesus); but the actual Bibles of the Catholic Church were based on the Greek and Latin translations of the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures. Therefore, all the English language and all the European Bibles have not been translated from the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures, which are the only original Scriptures that both the Jewish people and the Eastern Churches have preserved in the original Tongue.
When the Protestants came along in the 16th Century, they took the Catholic Church Bibles and modified them to suit their purposes, giving birth to thousands of denominations of Christianity. Thus the Bibles of Western Christianity have been so watered down that today nobody can say what Christianity means anymore.
http://www.v-a.com/bible/
My comment: It make sense, isn’t it? It is very relevant and concise.
Talib
Truth,
you said that Jesus is for the world ( including gentiles ) based on:
john 3:16(ESV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
My comment :
According to Greek Bible commentator, one of the meaning of ‘world’ here is :
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort [cf. Eng. “a world of curses” (Shakspere), etc.]: ? ?????? ??? ???????, the sum of all iniquities, Jas. iii. 6; ??? ?????? ???? ? ?????? ??? ????????, ??? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? (a statement due to the Alex. translator).
http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
It is like ‘ world of fantasy’, ‘world of book’, ‘world of art’, or’ underwater world’ etc. It does not mean the earthly world, or people of the world as claimed by Truth, because Jesus himself despise this world ( his Kingdom is in heaven, not in the world ). How come suddenly god loves the world? Or does that mean that God is a dependent and materialistic god? The Greek Bible also define the word of ‘world’ as:
worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc.
Therefore, looking at the bigger perspective, and considering that Jesus was a Jew,and he was using Jewish scripture, and he preach only to Jews in their synagogue, and his disciples were all Jews; it is highly probable that the word of ‘world’ here is referring to Jews alone. ( the world of Jew, or any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort of Jew). Otherwise, his action throughout of his life clearly contradict his only few word accepting the Gentile (if it was true). As we know, action speak louder than word.
It’s ad hoc, a sudden and abrupt change of mind of him accepting his teaching to Gentile which I consider that the statement was corrupted by Bible authors, knowing that they have 400 years to play with it before it finally ‘completed’. Thank you Truth for this glaring fact.
Compare that fact with the CLEAR verses stating that Quran is for all humankind instead of ‘the world’ ( what world? Is not it better to say ‘the people’, or ‘ the creation’ at least? ).
The Holy Quran 34:28 We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not.
http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/
Syukri
To Daniel
This is in reply to your post on Nov 7th –
” My comment about word ‘mahamad’ was just an observation. ” – Daniel.
Your observation is a mistake as I showed in my post – ‘ truth and light from the Son -Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:14 pm’.(You cannot admit that it is a mistake, can you). And also a mistake by Ahmad Deedat (I am sure you know who he is).
Also with reference to your post ‘Daniel , Nov 8th, 2009 at 8:50 pm :
“… I advice you to stop reading from Answering Islam. It’s pathetic. read Answering Christianity instead if you are a man and refute them.”
I believe I have been refuting Islamic arguments all these while. Some of them I did not realize until recently is from Answering Christianity (like this pathetic idea that the name of Muhammad is found in Song of Solomon 5:16) .
On another subject, you say “it MAY reflect a translation of the Hebrew word ‘ MENAHHEM’. Now, by considering the repetitive faulty translations ( admitted by truth ) and wrong pronunciation ( admitted by Aramaic Christians ) in Bible, compare the word ‘ MENAHHEM’ and ‘MUHAMMAD. WHO CAN GUARANTEE THE WORD HAS NOT BEEN TWISTED?” – Daniel. Here you try to defend Islam/ attack Christianity with POSSIBILITIES which are UNCERTAINTIES. Uncertainties are unconvincing, (I refer you to my post on the uncertainties within Islam -Sep 24th, 2009 at 5:07 am -truth and light from the Son).
Talib said of Christians “I realize that using possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion,…….; is common by Christian to prove their claims. This is not the way to discuss about God.” Oct 3rd, 2009 at 9:26 pm – Talib. Here you are doing what Talib accuses Christians of doing.
Also on the topic of “possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion” – you say:”The ‘myth’ among Muslims that the original Bible (with the precise name of MUHAMMAD of course ) is hidden in the Vatican library is not exclusive to Muslims, but surprisingly shared by Christians: The leadership of the Catholic Church knows very well that the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures in the Vatican Library are the original Scriptures, but they have not chosen to make this fact known openly.” – Daniel. Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm.
My reply- This statement about the ‘myth’ among Muslims and the Vatican library would make a good plot to another Dan Brown book. I suggest you inform Dan Brown (author of the famous DA VINCI CODE). It does not help the Islamic position to use ‘myth’ to attack Christianity/defend Islam as Christians believe the Quran itself is a work of fiction (and not a good work of fiction at that).
It does seem that Muslims are using “possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion” and “myths” to attack Christian beliefs and defend Islam and the Quran (which itself is a work of fiction).
To Truth,
You stated:
In Acts 1:8“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Here Syukri, will you say that Jesus wants the disciples of Jesus to spread the Christian message “to the ends of the earth” to the Jews only?
My reply:
Yes. Jesus meant it to the Jews only. He never preach to Gentile, in fact, Biblical Jesus despise gentiles. According to Greek Bible commentaries, earth here also means: a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of LAND, TERRITORY, REGION; simply, when it is plain from the context what land is meant, as that OF THE JEWS.
http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
Therefore, it must be understood: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the LAND/TERRITORIES/REGION (of the Jews).”
The word of ‘world’ is comparable to’ heaven’, not Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria.
Now, can you see the problematic situation caused by mistranslation that lead to misunderstanding and misconception?
Syukri
To All
Starting from Syukri’s post on Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:28 pm, Syukri has been trying to convince everybody that Jesus did not intend to have his message preached beyond the group of people called the Jews.
Jesus said: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus). Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…” (Matthew 28:18-19).
Whether Jesus intended to have His message taught to the Jews only or the Gentiles(non-Jews) as well, I leave it for you to decide. I list below Syukri’s posts and my replies, if you intend to read them.:
-Syukri,Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
-truth and light from the Son,Nov 7th, 2009 at 3:08 am-verse referred to is Acts 10:44-48
– Syukri, Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
– truth and light from the Son,Nov 8th, 2009 at 2:01 am
– truth and light from the Son,Nov 10th, 2009 at 1:17 am
– Syukri,Nov 10th, 2009 at 1:33 pm,
– Syukri, Nov 10th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
I do not intend to reply to Syukri’s last two post. The lack of logic in Syukri’s writing, his refusal to see reason, his desire to delude/ brainwash himself and others is revealed there, as I see it. I leave it for the readers to read through the post and decide for themselves.
To Daniel
You wrote in :”Daniel, Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm” – about the ‘Paraclete comes from the Koine Greek word ?????????? (parákl?tos, “one who consoles,….)” and by quoting that article you referred to, you therefore suggest that Muhammad was the one referred to, to come after Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. You also quoted : ” it MAY reflect a translation of the Hebrew word ‘ MENAHHEM’. ….. WHO CAN GUARANTEE THE WORD HAS NOT BEEN TWISTED?”
Here is an attempt by Muslims to have Muhammad appear in the New Testament. The writing here ask us to consider POSSIBILITIES of corruption. ( e.g. -”WHO CAN GUARANTEE THE WORD HAS NOT BEEN TWISTED?”)
I do not feel it necessary to reply as there is no solid point here. Here Muslims are just trying to cast doubt with no real facts but instead relying on ““possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion” to use Talib’s phrase. (Readers may try Answering Islam about this topic if they want to find out more.)
I also do not feel it necessary for me to reply after I have given a reply to the ridiculous idea that Muhammad is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16 . (truth and light from the Son
Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:14 pm).
Yet again I see Muslims attempting to make Muhammad appear in th Bible (as a true prophet).
Hi All,
Truth said:
I also do not feel it necessary for me to reply after I have given a reply to the ridiculous idea that Muhammad is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16 .
Just to let everybody know, I agree with him totally. I find it ridiculous too that the Prophet Muhammad is ever being mentioned in a book that is somewhat full of steamy ingredient for an action packed night in bed movie scene. Check it out and judge for yourselves now…
- Song of Solomon 1:2
2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth—
for your love is more delightful than wine.
- Song of Solomon 4:5
5 Your two breasts are like two fawns,
like twin fawns of a gazelle
that browse among the lilies.
- Song of Solomon 5:2-5
2 I slept but my heart was awake.
Listen! My lover is knocking:
“Open to me, my sister, my darling,
my dove, my flawless one.
My head is drenched with dew,
my hair with the dampness of the night.”
3 I have taken off my robe—
must I put it on again?
I have washed my feet—
must I soil them again?
4 My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening;
my heart began to pound for him.
5 I arose to open for my lover,
and my hands dripped with myrrh,
my fingers with flowing myrrh,
on the handles of the lock.
- Song of Solomon 7:3
3 Your breasts are like two fawns,
twins of a gazelle.
- Song of Solomon 7:7-9
7 Your stature is like that of the palm,
and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
8 I said, “I will climb the palm tree;
I will take hold of its fruit.”
May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine,
the fragrance of your breath like apples,
9 and your mouth like the best wine.
- Song of Solomon 8:8,10
8 We have a young sister,
and her breasts are not yet grown.
What shall we do for our sister
for the day she is spoken for?
10 I am a wall,
and my breasts are like towers.
Thus I have become in his eyes
like one bringing contentment.
It’ll be entertaining to see how they (the Christians) will twist these words in trying to explain it away as an Allegorical interpretation of the relationship between church and Christ and all that they can try to come up with. Like Eric has asked before, who is the one that is playing games with words now? Be truthful and not lame when answering this to yourselves.
To Daniel
You say:”Your reply is a self explanatory about the UNCERTAINTIES of Bible. You implied that before 400 A.D, THERE IS NO COMPLETE BIBLE. This show DOUBT about the origin of the Bible and how it completed. Isn’t that Bible come from Jesus and his disciples? IF THAT IS SO, THERE MUST BE BIBLES ALREADY WHEN JESUS DIED. 400 years is a long time you know. Many things could happen. Another question is, what book did Christians rely on during that period of vacuum? Incomplete Bible?
Now, please solve above question first before I can look at your question.”- Daniel,Nov 9th, 2009 at 4:11p.m.
Your questions here shows your lack of knowledge of Christian belief or/and only an Islamic view of Christian history.
You say:”there must be Bible already when Jesus died.” The books of the Bibles were written (or at least completed) only after Jesus died and rose again (e.g. Saint Paul became a Christian and wrote his letters which are found in the Bible after Jesus had gone back to heaven.)
It is not accurate to say that the Bible is a book. The Bible is actually a small library (a collection of books written over time.) Simple logic will tell you that the books in the Bible were written about , at most 100 years after Jesus left the earth. This is because after that, Jesus first disciples had passed away.
The books of the Bible were later copied. Later, the copies of the books that form the Bible were collected to form what we know today as the Bible. It is misleading to say that the Bible did not exist from about 100 years after Jesus because the books of the Bible had already been written except that they were not bound together as we can do so today with our modern printing. (The books of the Bible were written on, among other things, animal skin.).
To your question-”…. what book did Christians rely on during that period of vacuum? Incomplete Bible?”. I can ask Muslims the same question. What did Muslims rely on before there was the Quran as it is today. Incomplete Quran?
The answer is: Oral tradition. Some of the disciples were around for years after Jesus went back to heaven. (Correct me if I am wrong but I would think Islam will give the same answer.)
You say: “Now, please solve above question first before I can look at your question.”
I believe I have answered your question. Please answer my question. I place it again below -
“My question is – How do Muslims explain the fact that Bibles which exist 200 years before Muhammad (and the earlier – parts of Bibles and fragments) say the same things as Bibles do today (i.e. – Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead, the Trinity.. etc.). This is one explanation I wish to hear (because it contradicts the Quran before the Quran appeared.)”
Also FYI: From Answering Islam – “The most extensive Christian manuscripts are the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus which contained the complete New Testament and were copied in the 4th century. These may have been among the copies that were circulated among the churches for public reading, from the time of Constantine. These are many other old manuscripts, the codex Washington, Codex Alexandrinus,…… All of these date before the time of Mohammed.” (Also please see ‘Chester Beatty Papyri’ in wiki. Here it mentions Chapters of the New Testament before the year 300A.D.)
To Syukri and Co.
Shalom,
You said that “Therefore, it must be understood: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the LAND/TERRITORIES/REGION (of the Jews).” (Syukri-Nov 10th, 2009 at 5:31 pm) Is this your own translations to suite your point by saying that Jesus just mentioned about Jewish people only as the word WORLD according to you is LAND/TERRITORIES/REGION? Adoi..
This has really shows that you are trying to twisting facts as hard as you can but even if I am not a Christian, I could easily understand that Jesus is talking about the world as a whole. You may not agree but this is fact. You know it.
John 3:16(ESV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Not only God says to the WORLD, but He also says WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish. Well, you might still say that the “whoever” is also Jews. Land is Jews. Territory is Jews. Region is the Jews and so on. This, in fact, shows that you were trying to twist the fact and convince people out there that Christianity is only for Jews and because of that all accept the Jews must become a Muslim. The “whoever” means to every single man that ever live in this world. I believed everybody can think now.
Just imagine, if God just talking about the Jews, what on earth are we being created? To be created and destroyed? Do you think this is God’s plan to create us without giving us hope as what He gives to the Jews? If the salvation is only for Jews, than we are all must be perished. If only Islam according to you can bring salvations, so what kind of salvation did God mentions to the Jews? Will it be just useless thought and hope or it is because God is preparing two kinds of salvations? Don’t tell me that you’re trying to tell everyone that God is racist here. If God created the Jews and cares for them, why we as His creation must be abundant? I believed that God who created the Jews is the same God that created us and He is the same God that wants us to be saves. If we are abundant, it is not God that abundant us, but we are the one who refused Him. Every man on earth must have this hope and it start from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth.
Revelation 14: (6) “Then I saw another angel flying in midair, with an eternal Gospel (good news) to tell to the inhabitants of the earth, to EVERY RACE and TRIBE and LANGUAGE and PEOPLE”.
Know what, this is even funny facts from what I have noticed. While Christians are busy sharing the Gospel to people, Muslims is busy trying to stop it through what ever means they can. They even try to twist the word of the Bible. Sometimes they don’t even realize it that it’s really funny. ?
Religion is ALWAYS such a contentious subject. That’s one of the things that so often makes it so harmful.
No one knows what Abraham was “told” and since he’s not around to testify it’s moot. Words in books written by men, as the foundation for a belief system are part of a controlling mechanism and are more likely to be propaganda than fact. Just look at the history books we were told to believe in public schools.
The bible has been added to, subtracted from, censored and modified so often by so many different people, to suit their agendas, that it must be taken with very many, very large grains of salt. There is a lot of good that can be gleaned from the bible and many other religious texts. There’s also a lot more dogma, rhetoric and completely irrelevant nonsense.
Someone should do a final edit and take out all the useless, conflict causing, self-righteous gibberish and leave the messages of hope, peace, love and unity that could help bring the human family together as it should be.
that may leae a book of about 1/4 oif the bible we have today. The thing that is funny is that not all bible’s have all the books that others have in therm. How do they compensate for that? The Catholic Bible has 4 more books in it then the King James and yet those who use the King James claims that their book is complete! They will also put up a front that they don’t or aren’t Catholic so that book has no relevence to their own religion. That’s is funny because they are failing to find out how it i all connected and their book they use was translated by Monks–who were Catholics. That Bible, no matter what version is a Catholic Bible in essence.
To Bible is corrupted
You say : “Just to let everybody know, I agree with him (truth and light from the Son) totally. I find it ridiculous too that the Prophet Muhammad is ever being mentioned in a book (SONG OF SOLOMON ) that is somewhat full of steamy ingredient for an action packed night in bed movie scene.” -Bible is corrupted., Nov 11th, 2009 at 1:08 am.
This is in reference to my comment “I also do not feel it necessary for me to reply after I have given a reply to the ridiculous idea that Muhammad is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16 .” – (truth)
I appreciate your honesty in agreeing with me. However, i wish to point out a problem for you. Muslims (e.g.the famous Ahmad Deedat ) use this ridiculous untrue idea to attack Christianity. Daniel was the first person to mention this idea on this blog -site. I reproduce what Daniel wrote below. :- Daniel Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am “……..According to Holy Qur’an the name of prophet Muhammad or Ahmad (p.b.u.h) is mention by name in the Gospel (Injeel):……..If you refer to Song of Solomon in Hebrew scripture, the name ‘Muhammad’ also mention there, please read Song of Solomon 5:16 it looks like this: “Hikow mamtaqiym wkulow MAHAMADiym ……”
Do you agree that Ahmad Deedat has made a mistake? (Deedat’s videos on this topic is still found in cyber-space) Has Daniel made a mistake. Your reply should be interesting. A reply from Daniel would also be interesting.
Perhaps all that Deedat has ever said is a mistake; which suggest that Islam is built on errors and untruths.
Hi truth,
WOW! That is all I can say now. My absence does see me missing a lot of actions in here. Its a spectacle to see you fend off your “infidels” almost single handedly buddy.
“…as he appears to talk like an expert defender of Islam …” – truth and light from the Son Sep 16th, 2009 at 1:18 am
That sentence on you referring to Syukri up there, it just makes me wonder now on who is the expert defender here. Or where you inspired by that? In any case, thanks for your reply to my earlier post buddy. Really appreciate it a great deal.
Much of what I have to say has already been spoken by Talib and the rest. And what I would like to hear from you has already been said by yourself. I do have my own points to add though but it will be tiring to draw everything in circles now that the comment thread is expanding like crazy. Like I have said before, I wouldn’t want to make a mess to the on going comments.
So see ya around buddy and peace out.
To Pro-truth
Good point about ” whoever” in John 3:16 . “Not only God says to the WORLD, but He also says WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish. ( pro-truth, Nov 11th, 2009 at 12:41 pm).
Thank God for this, the greatest invitation.
Hi Truth
Thanks for your acknowledgment of my honesty. If you ask me, Daniel has his own points which I will not enter into an argument with. If you ask me if he has made a mistake about the topic in reference, it is in my own opinion now that he did not make a mistake in his own ways at all. Now that I come to think of it, it was merely mentioned that the name Muhammad was mentioned irregardless of its meaning. No structured sentence need to be form or an essay to be written. Just the name to be mentioned. Thats all to it. And the name was indeed mentioned. MAHAMADiym was in fact found in the Hebrew version of Song of Solomon.
As for you to ask me if Ahmad Deedat has made a mistake or not…Do you mean Ahmad Deedat the man whom the pope dared not hold a debate with publicly in the Vatican Square ( click here for proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_deedat#Deedat_and_the_Pope )? If he has dared the pope for a public debate and the pope has declined, I believe what arguments he had, has definitely got no flaws in it. Don’t try to put me in a corner as how you have tried with Eric. Have you got no shame?
As for me, I may have been influenced with the faux amis probability and the feeling of disgust in how vividly the sexual theme of the book (a book that was supposed to be holy) was described that I have totally missed out that it was said that the name Muhammad was mentioned and thats all to it. The name was mentioned and it was indeed mentioned there.
If you want to talk about mistakes, I feel that as a human you will bound to make mistakes along the way and that will include you and your friends too. I saw a lot of contradictions in your very own arguments too. I can cite them with references from your replies if you want me to produce for you but I believe you will turn a blind eye on all of them. That will just make it a waste of time for me.
Now, do you find my reply interesting?
To Bible is corrupted
With reference to you post -Nov 12th, 2009 at 12:01 am – you say -
“If you ask me if he (Danial) has made a mistake about the topic in reference, it is in my own opinion now that he did not make a mistake in his own ways at all. Now that I come to think of it, it was merely mentioned that the name Muhammad was mentioned irregardless of its meaning. …… Just the name to be mentioned. Thats all to it. And the name was indeed mentioned. MAHAMADiym was in fact found in the Hebrew version of Song of Solomon.
My reply: You are starting to sound like Syukri with his refusal to accept that the word ‘world’ in John 3:16 refers to everyone on the whole planet earth.
First you say that MUHAMMAD is not mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16. Then you say that Danial”did not make a mistake in his own ways at all” when Danial says that MUHAMMAD is mentioned. Next you say that “Now that I come to think of it, it was merely mentioned that the name Muhammad was mentioned irregardless of its meaning.”
My reply: I believe, no Muslim would say that MUHAMMAD is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16 for no reason. There is a reason why this point is mentioned. Otherwise why mention it. So it was not “merely mentioned” as you say”irregardless of its meaning.” If you do not admit that what I say applies to Danial, surely there is no escaping this fact when Ahmad Deedat “mentions” it. And I believe my post -(truth and light from the Son, Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:14 pm). rebuts this point as put forward by Ahmad Deedat.
To Truth,
You said to Bible is corrupt:First you say that MUHAMMAD is not mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16. Then you say that Danial”did not make a mistake in his own ways at all” when Danial says that MUHAMMAD is mentioned. Next you say that “Now that I come to think of it, it was merely mentioned that the name Muhammad was mentioned irregardless of its meaning.”
My reply: it’s simple. I said it was just an observation. I did not imply anything further, like saying that indeed the word is referring to Prophet Muhammad for Muslim. Did I? No. As plain as that. Therefore, nothing unusual here.
Thank you ‘Bible is corrupt’ for clearing my stand. That’s indeed what I want to say. First he said MUHAMMAD is not mentioned in Song of Solomon. What he meant here is the PERSONAL being of Muhammad, due to the pornographic nature of the verses. So he agreed with Truth because Muhammad is too good to be put in such dirty ancient sex scene.
Then he said that Danial”did not make a mistake in his own ways at all” when Danial says that MUHAMMAD is mentioned”. Yes. it’s true also. Here the word ‘ MAHAMADiym’ is really mentioned. I repeat again, the WORD of Mahamad, and it is not necessarily referring to PERSONAL BEING of Prophet Muhammad of Islam.
But desperate Truth will repeat things again and again, only showing his bankrupt of idea to refute Muslims. out of nothing.
Daniel Al Islam
To Danial
You say:”But desperate Truth will repeat things again and again, only showing his bankrupt of idea to refute Muslims. OUT OF NOTHING.”-Daniel, Nov 12th, 2009 at 8:23 am
My reply: – It is actually desperate Muslims who are trying to make Muhammad appear in the Bible (as a true prophet) OUT OF NOTHING (but untrue ideas that he is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16 and using “possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion” that Muhammad is referred to in the New Testament. – e.g. my post -truth and light from the Son, Nov 10th, 2009 at 11:21 pm)
To Truth and to whom it may concern, Muslims and Christians.
truth said:It is actually desperate Muslims who are trying to make Muhammad appear in the Bible (as a true prophet) OUT OF NOTHING (but untrue ideas that he is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16 and using “possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion” that Muhammad is referred to in the New Testament. – e.g. my post -truth and light from the Son, Nov 10th, 2009 at 11:21 pm)
My reply:First, he accused Muslim are using possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion and myth. But he himself still not be able to reply me until now WHO ARE THE REALLY AUTHOR OF BIBLE.(Syukri Sep 10th, 2009 at 3:54 pm) If you see, he has been playing hide and seek all these while without trying to resolve this matter clearly. Now, who is using possibility, perhaps and plausible suggestion?
Actually, Christians are the ONE who use all these words. Here are some of it ( I won’t collect it all )
1)Truth said:I AM NOT EVEN SURE that they arose from the Greek (Greek being the original language.) But would it not be more logical to ASSUME that the Greek (the original language) is the source of Christian beliefs rather than any translation.
truth and light from the son Sep 12th, 2009 at 4:00 am
2)Truth said:I stated that core christian beliefs are found in the Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament(the original language). Just because they are found there does not mean that the beliefs originated from there. OBVIOUSLY, one POSSIBILITIES of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same core christian beliefsas Christians have today.
truth and light from the Son Sep 24th, 2009 at 5:07 am
truth and light from the Son Sep 13th, 2009 at 2:55 am
My comment: Truth did not only use POSSIBILITY to support his claim, but he also CONTRADICTED his own statement, thus showing his ficklemindedness. He said that it’s more LOGICAL to ASSUME that Greek Bible is the source of Christian beliefs. Then he contradicted himself by saying that the Christian beliefs DOES NOT originated from Greek Bible.
3) Christian are using all POSSIBILITY word to uphold their ‘truthfulness’:
-The unknown author, whom we shall continue to call Matthew FOR THE SAKE OF CONVENIENCE….
-As for the place where the gospel was composed, a PLAUSIBLE SUGGESTION is that it was Antioch..
-“Although the book is ANONYMOUS, apart from the ancient heading “According to Mark” in manuscripts, it has TRADITIONALLY been assigned to John Mark…
-“Although there is NO DIRECT INTERNAL EVIDENCE of AUTHORSHIP, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church….
-“SERIOUS DOUBTS exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark…
Talib Oct 3rd, 2009 at 9:26 pm
4) while trying to defend his case, Truth indirectly disclose his case. Like when he tried to say that the principal of Christianity did not arise from faulty translations, he personally admitted the translations of Bible are faulty!( truth and light from the son Sep 12th, 2009 at 4:00 am )
5)The other one is, when he asked what if Bible is already complete during Prophet Muhammad, he unpurposely admitted that Bible only completed after 400 year after the demise of Jesus! ( he apologized his mistake ), therefore, he unintently admitted Bible was not complete, at least during Apostolic Age.He said:From my reading I know that there are complete Bibles from the year 400 A.D. (ROUGHLY) onwards. (Incomplete Bibles – even earlier). This is about 200 years before the time of Muhammad.
truth and light from the Son Nov 8th, 2009 at 12:46 am
My additional question: Now who is not sure here? Muslim or Christian? Who is using the word ” ROUGHLY” to support his fact here? (The word ‘rough’ means: incomplete, rudimentary, approximate,irregular’).
5) Truth accused Muslims of being selective, by only quoting verses saying that Jesus is not god and ignoring verses supporting that he is a god. This statement is refuted Eric by saying:I saw that, truth, and along with it the other accounts from the other 3 Gospels relating to the same incident. You are right on your guess that I do not see that as a commandment. But the reality now is, truth, YOU ONLY SEE THE PART WHERE IT SAYS THESE TWO WORSHIPED HIM, YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE THE DISCREPANCIES OF THE REPORTING OF THE EVENT FOUND IN THE OTHER 3 GOSPELS (The caps are not shouts ya. Just to emphasize).
Eric Sep 8th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
6)Truth said:I do not intend to reply to Syukri’s last two post. The lack of logic in Syukri’s writing, his refusal to see reason, his desire to delude/ brainwash himself and others is revealed there, as I see it. I leave it for the readers to read through the post and decide for themselves.
My reply: When I read Truth comment about me, I just see himself describing himself. He and Christians use a lot possibilities, but accuse Muslim to do that, he accuse my writing as lack of logic, but he is the one who say that ‘easy to understand’ is not the characteristic of truth. Now I also would like for the readers ( if any ) to read through the post and decide for themselves.
Syukri
To Eric, Assalamualaikum,
You said to Truth,”Much of what I have to say has already been spoken by Talib and the rest. And what I would like to hear from you has already been said by yourself. I do have my own points to add though but it will be TIRING to draw everything in circles now that the comment thread is expanding like crazy. Like I have said before, I wouldn’t want to make a mess to the on going comments.”
I would like to share with you as a fellow believer, as I can sense your fatigue. I think that happens when we want to correct them, or at least change their wrong perception. That’s not like that bro. Our focus here is not to convert them, or to bring them to Islam, because ONLY Allah can do that. And even if we bring ALL the clear proof, I won’t change them if Allah does not give them ‘hidayah’ or guidance. It’s amazing how Allah precisely explain their situation 1400 years ago.
6:24 Behold how they have lied to themselves *and [how] their false imagery has forsaken them!
*by allowing themselves to think, in their lifetime, that their beliefs did not offend against the principle of God’s oneness (Razi). But see also 10:28 and the corresponding notes 45 and 46.(Quran Ref: 6:24 )
6:25 And there are among them such as [seem to] listen to thee [O Prophet]: but over their hearts We have laid VEILS which prevent them from grasping the truth, and into their ears, deafness. And were they to see every sign [of the truth], they would still not believe in it-so much so that when they come unto thee to contend with thee, those who are bent on denying the truth say, “This is nothing but fables of ancient times!”
My comment:”This is nothing but fables of ancient times!” compare that with Truth’s comment about Quran. He said ‘…and the Quran (which itself is a work of fiction)’.
6:26 Others they keep away from it, and themselves they keep away; but they only destroy their own souls, and they perceive it not.
Isn’t these verses relevant with our discussion now? Yes. Therefore, engaging ourself in this debate or discussion ACTUALLY strengthen our belief and conviction. Not theirs! You know, I read Quran more nowadays and mesmerized by it. I hope you do that too.The clarity of Quran, the simplicity, direct to the point approach, the preciseness of the statement, the parallel with our situation and of course, the make sense instruction like only worship one God, obey your Prophet, that I don’t fully realize before, now is taking it’s form and perspective beautifully.
We ar only discharging our duty to preach to word of Allah, The Final Testament, not converting them.Allah said:
7:164 When some of them said: “Why do ye preach to a people whom Allah will destroy or visit with a terrible punishment?”- said the preachers:” To DISCHARGE our duty to your Lord, and PERCHANCE they may fear Him.”
So despair not bro, because I still want to read your wise and witty argument.
6:33 Well do We know that what such people SAY GRIEVES thee indeed: yet, behold, it is not thee to whom they give the lie, but God’s messages do these evildoers deny.
6:34 And, indeed, [even] before thy time have apostles been given the LIE, and they endured with patience all those charges of falsehood, and all the hurt done to them, till succour came unto them from Us: for there is no power that could alter [the outcome of] God’s promises. And some of the histories of those apostles have already come within thy ken.
Syukri
To all that concerns…
From all comments that we had read, I guest that some of us should have some conclusions by now. Anyway, I would like to let us think again about what we are talking about here. Basically we are talking about finding the truth. Of which religion is really true, between Christian and Islam at least. I believed that certain things would be somehow become a mystery to us. Be it something logic, be it not. That is why we need to believes in something even if we did not see, or things that existed far behind us or even in the future. That is faith.
So many questions that we kept asking our self or even sometimes argued with others about what we think and believed. One thing I learned from this is that, as long as we are human, all this questions and arguments will remain with us. That is why we need God. To have the answer. And for that reason, I found out that the Bible is totally different and gives me more understanding about past, present and future.
Talk about all the logics, I do believed that the way we see the logic in God and logic in human have to be understood. It will never been the idea of matching the mind of the creator and it creations. To men, it is not a logic thing that a woman was made just by a rib (Eve). Not logic at all right? But it is logic when it’s come to God. This is one from many examples that we can’t see all things by using our logic thinking. Otherwise we are trying to act smart like God which we never did.
That is why as a Christian we believed in the Bible not by human logic but simply by faith and the proof that it’s work in our life. Personally, the more I study it the more I understand who God is. Bible does not teach me much about being a religious person but more about God Himself. Bible didn’t teach me to be a Christian. It tells me about God, about His love, about the salvation that He want me to have and about how I should live my life on earth in order to be in heaven.
Have we ever wondering that if the Bible is just and ordinary book or it has been corrupted, why is it still the most influenced book on earth? Can someone explain? Now you can think about the logic.
I do ask my self of why are people still being so stupid believing in this book? Maybe you will say only the fool will believes it. If that so, why are most Christian countries are so advance these day? I don’t think they even can move forward if they are stupid or fools. There must be something behind this?!! The bible has been tested, destroys, argue for so many times but still until now no other book has been gone through such things that is still last. Again, there must be something about this book. Even now we’re still debating about this book but it still the no 1 book in the world. Think for a moment.
God bless you all
To Truth,
You said to me:You wrote in :”Daniel, Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm” – about the ‘Paraclete comes from the Koine Greek word ?????????? (parákl?tos, “one who consoles,….)” and by quoting that article you referred to, you therefore suggest that Muhammad was the one referred to, to come after Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. You also quoted : ” it MAY reflect a translation of the Hebrew word ‘ MENAHHEM’. ….. WHO CAN GUARANTEE THE WORD HAS NOT BEEN TWISTED?”
My reply:
My exact question is like this: it may reflect a translation of the Hebrew word ‘ MENAHHEM’. Now, by considering the repetitive faulty translations ( admitted by truth ) and wrong pronunciation ( admitted by Aramaic Christians ) in Bible, compare the word ‘ MENAHHEM’ and ‘MUHAMMAD. Who can guarantee the the word has not been twisted?
Daniel Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
First, you distorted my question to show to readers that I’ve posted simplistic argument. Second, you did not answer the question yet. Can you guarantee the word has not been twisted? I can’t guarantee. Translator of Bible also can’t guarantee the authenticity of all pronunciation in Bible ( Eashoa become Jesus for example). Can you?
‘It MAY reflect a translation of the Hebrew word..’ is the phrase I have quoted from a neutral source ( since it gives fair explanation of the word according to Christians and Muslims):
http://www.answers.com/topic/paraclete
you said again: This statement about the ‘myth’ among Muslims and the Vatican library would make a good plot to another Dan Brown book. I suggest you inform Dan Brown (author of the famous DA VINCI CODE). It does not help the Islamic position to use ‘myth’ to attack Christianity/defend Islam as Christians believe the Quran itself is a work of fiction (and not a good work of fiction at that).
My reply: my apostrophized word of myth ( ‘myth’ ) is meant to be sarcastic la. Adoiii ( borrowing from Pro Truth ) We Muslims do BELIEVE the word of AHMAD is really mention in Bible. But Christians twisted it and later thought that it is a Muslim myth. It is sad that The Vatican is not open about this that even Aramaic ( language spoken by Jesus )speaking Christian doubted the current Bible. Only time will tell. ( Pope himself has not been open until lately when he finally apologize about Inquisition, Crusade, child abuse, church fund embezzlement, aparthied etc ) So we are looking forward to listening from him about the original Bible in Aramaic. It will be interesting to see how your jaw drop and your saliva drip ( just kidding )
Allah said in Quran 2:146, The people of the Book know him ( Prophet Muhammad as a true prophet ) AS THEY KNOW THEIR OWN SONS; but some of them CONCEAL the truth which they themselves know.
So you are against myth. Aren’t you? But what about Christians who are known to believe in myth. It called Christian Mythology. Wiki says:Christian mythology (????? (mythos) in Greek) is the body of traditional narratives associated with Christianity from a mythographical perspective. Many Christians believe that these narratives are sacred and that they communicate profound truths. These traditional narratives include, but are not necessarily limited to, the stories contained in the Christian Bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mythology
So, you Christians are the one who believe in myth and master of distortion, not us. he he he
Daniel Al Islam
To Daniel ( Are you sharing the same computer as Syukri?)
You say :We Muslims do BELIEVE the word of AHMAD is really mention in Bible.”-Nov 13th, 2009 at 6:40 pm.
My reply : You MUST believe Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible because of the verse:
(Quran 61:6):“And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, …., and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One).” (Qur’an 61:6) – Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am.
You supplied this verse yourself. So the Quran says Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible. This creates a problem for Muslims that is resulting is two trends.
From my reading, I notice two trends in Islam.
The first trend (which has been around for years) is to say that Muhammad is mentioned in the present day Christian Bible in verses ( and this includes the Hebrew Bible). It has to be the present day Christian Bible referred to here because the quoted verses by Muslims (like Song of Solomon 5:16 and Deuteronomy 18:18 ) is found in present day Bibles (and Hebrew Bibles).
My view, of course, is that arguments to prove Muhammad being mentioned or referred to in verses like Song of Solomon 5:16 and Deuteronomy 18:18 is weak; so weak that even some Muslims have trouble with them. {The post by – Bible is corrupted-”Just to let everybody know, I agree with him (truth and light from the Son) totally. I find it ridiculous too that the Prophet Muhammad is ever being mentioned in a book (SONG OF SOLOMON ) that is somewhat full of steamy ingredient for an action packed night in bed movie scene.” -Bible is corrupted., Nov 11th, 2009 at 1:08 am. This is an example/indication of the problems with those arguments.}
Realizing this some Muslims have started a new trend.
The new trend is to say that Muhammad is mentioned in the ORIGINAL Bible (in Aramaic language, of course). The new trend avoids some of the problems of the old trend but creates new problems , as I see it, for Muslims.
To give you one comical example.
Question: Is Muhammad mentioned in Bible?
Muslim says: Yes, Muhammad is mentioned in original Aramaic Bible.
Question: Can I read this original Aramaic Bible to find Muhammad’s name?
Muslim says: No, because original Aramaic Bible is locked up in Vatican and Pope will not let you.
The above is a joke but I believe all will get the point. The idea of original Aramaic Bible is unproven opinion and falls under the category of “possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion” Talib’s phrase in -Talib,Oct 3rd, 2009 at 9:26 pm.
(Please read -Daniel,Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm. for background of this discussion.)
To All -
Sorry for my mistake. I cut and paste wrongly in my last post
Quotation should read :
“Daniel
Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am
For the benefit of all, I write it here again.
ACCORDING TO HOLY QURAN the name of prophet Muhammad or AHMAD (p.b.u.h) IS MENTION BY NAME IN THE GOSPEL (Injeel):
“And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One).” (Qur’an 61:6)
If you refer to Song of Solomon in Hebrew scripture, the name ‘Muhammad’ also mention there, please read Song of Solomon 5:16 it looks like this:…………”
To: Bible is corrupted
I am a little disappointed that you made a statement that can be taken to mean that the Pope was afraid to debate Ahmad Deedat. (Bible is corrupted,Nov 12th, 2009 at 12:01 am
“…..As for you to ask me if Ahmad Deedat has made a mistake or not…Do you mean Ahmad Deedat the man whom the pope dared not hold a debate with publicly in the Vatican Square..”
I wish the discussion on this blog – site to rise above the low level of thinking that you have displayed by mentioning the Pope (not that I am Catholic, I am not Catholic).
To give you an example of low-level thinking : e.g Christianity is not true because of the bad things that happen during the Crusades. Or Islam is not true because of September 11, 2001. Clear thinking persons will see that bad examples of persons who claim to be Christian does not make the religion false. (Likewise for Muslims.)
The office of the Pope is as a guide (among other things). He certainly knows how to defend Christian belief but I suggest to you that debating may not be his specialty. There are Catholic videos on the on the internet with Catholics speakers defending Catholic beliefs. One of those Catholic speakers could have been a more experienced debater than the Pope and therefore a better person to debate Ahmad debate.
By mentioning the Pope and Ahmad Deedat, you are engaging in low level propaganda which I find present in some Islamic Dawah writing – like Syukri’s.-e.g “….the Crusaders massacred the Muslim inhabitants, destroyed mosques and pillaged the ity.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
Muslims are peaceful in nature. Only media ( internationally own by Jews ) portray them as terrorist…” Syukri, August 5, 5.55pm. Here is a good example of Islamic propaganda. (To be fair, I have read that there are some Islamic writing that is of a higher standard than others.) To engage in this kind of low level propaganda activities shows one’s (Christian or Muslim person’s) low level thinking abilities.
Hi turth,
Your reply to me:
I am a little disappointed that you made a statement that can be taken to mean that the Pope was afraid to debate Ahmad Deedat. (Bible is corrupted,Nov 12th, 2009 at 12:01 am
So you are a little disappointed? First things first, let me get this straight. I am not here to please you, friend. I am here to give my views on what I read. Besides, if you or anybody else were to read my comments, I have merely asked you to confirm if it is Ahmad Deedat the man that had dared the pope for a public debate. Anything wrong with that? Whether the pope is not a good debater or not, it is something that I do not need to propagate as it is a FACT.
As for you to label me as having “the low level of thinking that I have displayed by mentioning the Pope”. I think you should know better yourself that there are a lot of these examples coming from your own brother in Christ here in this very blog itself. Just refer to the previous post and we all don’t need to point out on who they are as it is very clear to see.
This is another very interesting point to bring out for you. While you have gladly mentioned this in your defense for the pope who cant defend the faith like the expert defender of Christianity you are:
“By mentioning the Pope and Ahmad Deedat, you are engaging in low level propaganda which I find present in some Islamic Dawah writing – like Syukri’s.-e.g “….the Crusaders massacred the Muslim inhabitants, destroyed mosques and pillaged the…To engage in this kind of low level propaganda activities shows one’s (Christian or Muslim person’s) low level thinking abilities.”
You have displayed how oblivious you are with the current situation. The current Pope himself did the same my friend. Read this:
“The man (Pope Benedict) makes enemies every time,” said Pope Shenouda III, leader of the 10 million Coptic Christians in Egypt, according to the state-run daily Al-Ahram.
“In his first statements a few months back, he lost all the Muslims,” he said Saturday, referring to the Pope’s speech in Germany last year when he associated Islam with violence…” – The head of Egypt’s Coptic Orthodox Church. http://www.christiantoday.com/article/catholic.pride.in.one.true.church.makes.enemies.says.coptic.pope/11679.htm
And you know what? You are not Catholic right? Amazingly that article is also talking about how the Pope himself states that the other Churches are false churches. Read this:
“Other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation,” the Pope was quoted as saying.
My findings, by your advise too look up for Catholic defending their faith has also revealed the same sentiments as the Pope. Now how about that for a low level thinking?
So, please, don’t try to ridicule people if you are not prepared to do so, friend.
To Truth,
Interesting read about low level thinking and propaganda. I also found one too in Hamzah writing delusion about Muslims loving to convert them to Islam, calling me name ( dawagandist ), jeeringly challenging Muslims to debate, but finally conceded defeat by abruptly close his blogpost.
Hamzah said:..Its term of endearment, kind of, for missionaries like yourself, Syukri etc who always inordinately love attacking the Gospel and Christianity, indulging in the false hopes that these EX-Muslims who have embraced AUTHENTIC Christianity would perhaps return to islam…LOLLL!!
Hamzah Jun 28th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Hamzah talked about ‘authentic Christianity’ and at the same time did not have an agreeable term with Emmanuel regarding the concept of original sin only showing discrepancies among Christians in defining ‘authentic Christianity and exposing his low level thinking by arguing with Muslims and Christians at the same time. Emmanuel has stopped writing ever since.
http://1flock1shepherd.blogspot.com/
If I’m not mistaken, you are the one who mentioned Ahmad Deedat first here to discredit him, not ‘bible is corrupt’. Bible is corrupt only tried to show Deedat credit in knowledge and his credibility in comparative debate even the Pope acknowledged him and prepared to debate with him in his cabin. I don’t think it’s easy to get Pope attention. I personally don’t know Deedat much ( I rely more on Osama Abdallah in http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm ), but thank to Bible is corrupt, I’ve started to read Deedat articles. Mentioning Deedat and Pope is not low level thinking at all, it’s called SHARING. My favorite part is when Deedat debated with a priest only using his eyes ( his was totally paralyzed but his mind remain alert )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Deedat
http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp
You said: The office of the Pope is as a guide (among other things). He certainly knows how to defend Christian belief but I suggest to you that debating may not be his specialty. There are Catholic videos on the on the internet with Catholics speakers defending Catholic beliefs. One of those Catholic speakers could have been a more experienced debater than the Pope and therefore a better person to debate Ahmad debate.
My reply: Can you name one of those speakers who could have been a more experienced debater? Could it be scandalous Jimmy Swaggart? Well, his story is very interesting and somehow can highlight Christian way of thinking ( god, sin, sex, prostitute etc ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart
Syukri
To Bible is CORRUPT
Salam
Cool down bro. Don’t take Truth seriously. I personally don’t bother much if an insane person calling me ‘insane’, or low level thinking person call me low level thinking. It show that our points are intellectually unbearable to them that they resort to calling names and labeling. Prophet Muhammad was called mad by unbeliever. See, the pattern is repeating itself.
15:6 They say ( mockingly ): “O thou to whom the Message is being revealed! truly thou art mad (or possessed)!
Syukri
to Bible is CORRUPTED,
Is this typical of Muslims? Or is it typical of you (and Danial) only? You say something for effect and then deny the natural implications of what you say. For example: Bible is corrupted-Nov 12th, 2009 at 12:01 am”………, it was MERELY MENTIONED (by DANIAL – my note) that the name Muhammad was mentioned irregardless of its meaning. …… Just the name to be mentioned. Thats all to it ” – (That is the supposed appearance of MUHAMMAD’S name in Song of Solomon 5:16 in the Hebrew Bible.) For you or Danial to mention this is to suggest that this is a prediction of the coming of Muhammad, so I cannot accept that you or Danial MERELY MENTIONED this point without any implications even if you or Danial deny that anything was intended. ( All should read -Daniel post, Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am in full prefrably-”……ACCORDING TO HOLY QURAN the name of prophet Muhammad or AHMAD (p.b.u.h) IS MENTION BY NAME IN THE GOSPEL (Injeel):“And when Jesus son of Mary Said:…..(etc)” and “If you refer to Song of Solomon in Hebrew scripture, the name ‘Muhammad’ also mention there, please read Song of Solomon 5:16 it looks like this:…………”
So a complete reading of Danial’s post has Danial saying that the Quran says Muhammad’s coming was predicted in the Bible e.g. Song of Solomon 5:16 in the Hebrew Bible. I do not accept that Danial MERELY MENTIONED this point without any implications.
Next, you say:”I have MERELY asked you to confirm if it is Ahmad Deedat the man that had dared the pope for a public debate. Anything wrong with that?” – Bible is corrupted Nov 14th, 2009 at 5:43 pm.
My reply: You are not really MERELY asking me to confirm anything? You are just trying to score points and spread Islamic propaganda that the Pope is afraid of Ahmad Deedat. In you post you say:” …Ahmad Deedat the man whom the pope DARED NOT hold a debate with publicly in the Vatican Square ( click here for proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_deedat#Deedat_and_the_Pope )”.
This is what I call low-level Islamic propaganda that I accuse you of and of which I am disappointed (rather than the mere mention of the Pope). The late Pope in his wisdom declined possibly because he felt that more harm than good would come out of such a debate. (We Christians, I feel, are more concerned about fanatical Muslims who will riot are the slightest perceived insult to Islam.) Besides, I feel Deedat’s challenge is a publicity stunt. Deedat gains from the publicity whether the Pope accepts or declines.(bearing in mind, the Pope’s stature as leader of an organization with one billion persons which is much higher than Deedat’s stature).
To Truth,
The Christian trend is to say that Bible is the word of god (in Greek language, of course). The old trend avoids some of the problems of the new trend but creates new problems , as I see it, for Christians.
To give you one comical example.
Question: Is Jesus a god?
Christian: Yes, he is a god. Worshiped and revered along the Father.
Question: What is the proof?
Christian says: Jesus as god is mentioned in original Greek Bible.
Question: Who wrote the original Greek Bible?
Christian says: Apostles of Jesus, as stated in the beginning of every chapter of Bible.
Question: How could it be so since Bible according to Truth only completed after 400 years after demise of Jesus? Do you suggest that all Apostles could have been alive until that time ( 400 year A.D )?
Christians says: There have been authors ( assistant, secretaries etc ) who wrote Bible too.
Question: Who are they?
Christian says: they are UNKNOWN authors.
Question: How can you rely your important principal of faith based on a book which the authors are UNKNOWN?
Christian says: You know, there are some areas in faith need to be understood mysteriously because it’s not easy to be explained. Like material explaining immaterial. Truth says: Easy to understand and logic is not characteristics of truth.
Question: Who authorize or define Bible when it finally completed after 400 years?
Christians say: UNKNOWN ( it could be anyone ).
Question: Are you sure that the Bible is the the word of god since the authors and the agreed definition are unknown?
Christians say ( angrily ): OF COURSE! It’s the UNKNOWN word of god! What’s the problem with that?!! It still word of god.
The above is a joke but I believe all will get the point. The idea of original Greek Bible as the word of god is unproven opinion and falls under the category of “possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion” Talib’s phrase in -Talib,Oct 3rd, 2009 at 9:26 pm.
Syukri
To Syukri
You say: “Interesting read about low level thinking and propaganda. I also found one too in Hamzah writing delusion about Muslims loving to convert them to Islam, calling me name ( dawagandist ), jeeringly challenging Muslims to debate, but finally CONCEDED DEFEAT BY ABRUPTLY CLOSE HIS BLOGPOST.” – Syukri , Nov 14th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
My reply: Again you demonstrate your tendency to engage in low – level thinking and the spread of Islamic propaganda. You spread propaganda by sayng Hamzah “CONCEDED DEFEAT BY ABRUPTLY CLOSE HIS BLOGPOST.” – Syukri , Nov 14th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
I feel that Hamzah closed his blogpost at an appropriate point. He has responded well to so much Islamic untruths and propaganda already. Perhaps he has decided that enough has been written for all to read and continuing will serve no purpose. He has not conceded defeat. It is you, Syukri, who will twist facts by saying that HAMZAH CONCEDED DEFEAT BY ABRUPTLY CLOSE HIS BLOGPOST as you twist the words of the Bible to say that the Christian message is only meant for the Jews. – (please refer to my post -truth and light from the Son, Nov 10th, 2009 at 9:47 pm).
Eric has stopped writing (please refer to- Eric, Nov 11th, 2009 at 10:30 pm). I do not intend to spread propaganda with suggestions that Eric has conceded defeat (like you, Syukri, would do). This shows your small mind and low level – of thinking. It is there for all to see.
Additional note: Pope does not agree to debate Ahmad Deedat. Muslims spread propaganda that Pope is afraid. This sounds like something that you, Syukri, would do. Do you think and act in this way. Do all Muslims think and act in this way; – that is twisting facts and spreading untruths and propaganda.
Salam Bro Syukri,
Thank you for your advice there regarding my reply. You have certainly helped to clear my stand with your words. I will take into consideration and practice it now when facing with this kind of people.
Salam to Bro Daniel too,
Thanks too bro for making my first reply to truth clearer. It is my stand now that I see the Person Prophet Muhammad was not described in such a pornographic book but instead it was just the name thats been mentioned.
Peace be upon you two now.
Hi truth,
I am not sure where you get your education from but comprehension sure dictates that my replies have clearly shown that I have corrected my stand.
For you to say this:
For you or Danial to mention this is to suggest that this is a prediction of the coming of Muhammad,
and then this to Syukri:
I do not intend to spread propaganda with suggestions that Eric has conceded defeat (like you, Syukri, would do).
That just shows how desperate you are in trying to pin your opponent down with what ever means you have. You said that you do not want to spread propaganda but yet you have twisted my words to spread propaganda.
I am going to ask you a specific question now (as how Eric put it). Tell me, did I ever mention that the mentioning of the name is a prediction of the coming of the Prophet Muhammad? Say Yes or No. The answer will just proves my point.
On me trying to score points about the late Ahamad Deedat. You have obviously skipped Syukri’s post on Nov 14th, 2009 at 6:51 pm that has explained my original intention.
On twisting of facts and spreading untruths and propaganda, is this typical of Christians? Or is it typical of you? You have conveniently edited my reply to suit your point. It is no surprise that my question of
Do you mean Ahmad Deedat the man whom the pope dared not hold a debate with publicly in the Vatican Square ( click here for proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_deedat#Deedat_and_the_Pope )? – Bible is Corrupted at Nov 12th, 2009 on 12:01 am
Has been shortened in your quote to appear like a statement to just:
” …Ahmad Deedat the man whom the pope DARED NOT hold a debate with publicly in the Vatican Square ( click here for proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_deedat#Deedat_and_the_Pope )” – truth and light from the Son on Nov 16th, 2009 at 3:12 am
Besides it was shortened, where is my question mark here?
Don’t be like Hamzah. Please practice what you preached regarding low level thinking and propaganda.
I do urge the readers to read through all the replies now to see for themselves.
to Bible is corrupted
thank you for your reply.
With reference to your post,( Nov 16th, 2009 at 5:50 pm ), I am well aware that you have corrected your stand. We are only human and we make mistakes. I do not hold that against you as I am not perfect myself.
However, I wish to point out that your stand (before your correction OR after your correction), is still problematic. You say: “Thanks too bro (Danial) for making my first reply to truth clearer. It is my stand now that I see the Person Prophet Muhammad was not described in such a PORNOGRAPHIC BOOK but instead it was just the name thats been mentioned.” -(Bible is CORRUPTED, Nov 16th, 2009 at 5:17 pm).
My reply: Are you saying that the MERE MENTION of Muhammad’s name (supposedly) in the “pornographic book ” Song of Solomon 5:16” {Hebrew version) makes it more acceptable than a description of Muhammad in the “pornographic book “. There is a problem there for Muslims. It is only whether Muslims will admit it. Some Muslims do see the problem and other problems (eventually) with Islamic logic. They may eventually leave Islam (like Hamzah who is probably more aware of the short-comings of Islam than I am, since he is an ex- Muslim, if I am not mistaken)
Regarding your point that I have shortened you question: “Do you mean Ahmad Deedat the man whom the pope DARED NOT hold a debate with publicly in the Vatican Square ( click here for proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_deedat#Deedat_and_the_Pope )? – Bible is Corrupted at Nov 12th, 2009 on 12:01 am.
I wish to point out that my points as I stated in -(truth and light from the Son, Nov 16th, 2009 at 3:12 am) still stands whether what you say is a statement or a question (I shortened the quotation for conciseness only). And my point is this:
By saying :”Do you mean Ahmad Deedat the man whom the pope DARED NOT hold a debate with publicly…”, you are displaying low-level thinking and engaging in Islamic propaganda by suggesting that the Pope is afraid of facing Ahmad Deedat in a debate (presumably because the Pope will not be able to answer Deedat’s points.)
If you were to say that I could do a better job of copy-and- paste, I will not deny that. However, I wish to state that Syukri’s copy-and-paste of my post and his comments about them are so nonsensical that I am sure readers (even some Muslim readers) will find laughable. That is one reason I do not always reply to Syukri. FYI – I reproduce below the post of one whom I think is a Muslim. It is the last post in the blog-site: Another Malay Christian.. :” From:Ridzuan,Apr 27th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
to Syukri,
If i were to choose which faith to follow, I will follow Christianity now.
Look at you. From beginning to end you post criticism about Christianity. You said you were sorry time and again. But time and again you post those kind of statements.
Not once I see the Christians attacking you. Though this is a christian blog after all.
Arent you ashame? Is this how Islam has taught you to dakwah?
And your facts are so illogical. All you did was quoted it from some website and expect people to listen to you as though you are some scholar.
Have some respect to Allah. Present and dakwah yourself in a manner where you glorify Allah.
Many Christians I know will evangelise without criticising other religions. Maybe a few black sheeps. But most dont. They believe in the power of their gospel message. Syukri, do you believe in the power of the Word of Allah the Quran? Than present yourself in that manner if you believe! Dakwah and present Islam! What you are doing actually embarass me alot!
Your last post is filled with randomness. You just choose a topic and then change it and then move on to another topic. Then the final touch it looks so well written but actually everything is copy and paste. You spend your time so much on the internet finding information to post here and you forgot to spend time to talk about Allah.Malulah!
To Syukri
Again you show your low level of thinking. You say “Can you name one of those speakers who could have been a more experienced debater? Could it be scandalous Jimmy Swaggart? Well, his story is very interesting and somehow can highlight Christian way of thinking ( god, sin, sex,..)”-Syukri, Nov 14th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
My reply: You deviate and bring up a worthless point and show your low level of thinking.
I have already said “To give you an example of low-level thinking : e.g Christianity is not true because of the bad things that happen during the Crusades. Or Islam is not true because of September 11, 2001. Clear thinking persons will see that bad examples of persons who claim to be Christian does not make the religion false. (Likewise for Muslims.)” – truth and light from the Son
Nov 14th, 2009 at 2:23 am. Your example of Jimmy Swaggart requires no further comment than what I have already written.
Some Christian speakers are better than others. (Though this does not indicate that Christianity is true or false). Since you ask :”"Can you name one of those speakers who could have been a more experienced debater? “. I put forward the name :Joslin “Josh” McDowell. From WIKI – The debates of Ahmad Deedat – “Deedat’s first well-known debate occurred in August 1981 when he debated well-known Christian apologist Josh McDowell in Durban, South Africa.” – FYI – I have the transcript of that debate which was printed as a book (but I have misplaced the cassette tapes). In it I remember Deedat being caught in a mistake. In my opinion, Deedat did not look too good ( but of course , I am a biased Christian, right).
Hi truth,
Thank you for the reply. I think you will understand if I do not respond to your latest reply because I have the same sentiments towards you as how you are with Syukri.
Your copy-and-paste of my post and your comments about them are so nonsensical that I am sure readers (even some Christians readers) will find laughable. That is one reason I do not wish to reply.
So in light of that and also you have brought up the name Josh McDowell, I have found some interesting articles and videos about that man. Below is some of them that I hope you’ll read it.
http://users.iems.northwestern.edu/~hazen/McDowellRebuttal.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDJHXyYvBeI&feature=PlayList&p=E63D22D95B4C9553&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=26
Happy reading and watching now.
Hi Bro Syukri,
I have found a video about Ahmad Deedat regarding the request for a dialogue with the Pope which his holiness has declined. This video will just show on how sincere the Pope is with having a dialogue with the Muslims.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEOMnoWmBh4&feature=PlayList&p=E63D22D95B4C9553&index=27
Salam to all.
Truth said “To give you an example of low-level thinking : e.g Christianity is not true because of the bad things that happen during the Crusades. Or Islam is not true because of September 11, 2001. Clear thinking persons will see that bad examples of persons who claim to be Christian does not make the religion false. (Likewise for Muslims.)” – truth and light from the Son
My reply: your example of low level thinking is not correct. There is BIG different between Crusade and September 11. Crusade was proposed by Pope and supported by Christians kings and majority of Christian nations, i.e official Christian body, while September 11 was suspected to be carried out by a Muslim group that never endorsed by Muslims nations to represent them. One more thing, there is no credible evidence that this bombing done by Muslims. Obviously this was done by American themselves to justify their occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq. John Kaminski, an American writer says:
The twin towers could not have collapsed as a result of burning jet fuel. Most of that fuel was consumed on impact. In the south tower, most of the fuel was spilled outside the building. Heat caused by burning jet fuel does not reach temperatures needed to melt steel. What does stand out as particularly suspicious and still unexplained is that fires raged out of control beneath THREE of the collapsed towers for ONE HUNDRED DAYS, clearly indicating the presence of some kind of substance utilized in the demolition of the structures.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/911_a_hoax.htm
For me, Crusade ( when Christian killed women and infant as outlined by their Bible ), Inquisition ( when Christians killed Muslims, Jews, ‘heretic’ Christians and forced the natives of Latin America to convert to Christianity ) War of Religion ( Where Protestants and Catholics slew each other ), Holocaust, notorious sex scandal among priest, gay movement, fund embezzlement ARE INDEED crimes to humanity and SIGNS that Christianity is not true and failed to give peace to humankind in this world, what more in the hereafter. It’s totally a system failure. If a car can’t move properly, does that mean that it’s a sign of defect? ( Not to mention internal conflict of Christianity ).
The names like Ahmad Deedat, Pope are personality worth to be mentioned due to their contributions in their respective field. You also quoted names like (self proclaimed ) apostle Paul, Hamzah etc, but I’ve never accused your of low level. Why are all these labeling and gibberish? Is that because you are running out of idea already and want to deviate from the main topic? I have not finished yet about authenticity of Bible, the original language of Bible, universality of Christianity etc. Are you afraid that your case being exposed bit by bit by your own words ( like admission that Bible translations are faulty, Bible was not complete during apostolic age )??
So, stop talking about low level thinking because you also don’t have high level thinking ability based on your contradictory statement. It only shows your desperation which only fuel my assurance of what I’m believing now. Thanks anyway.
Syukri
Salam to all,
Truth said:Some Muslims do see the problem and other problems (eventually) with Islamic logic. They may eventually leave Islam (like Hamzah who is probably more aware of the short-comings of Islam than I am, since he is an ex- Muslim, if I am not mistaken)
What logic do you mean? Do you believe in logic? What is the logic of CO EQUAL Jesus when he pray to his god, only proving that his god is GREATER, not EQUAL? What is the logic of UNKNOWN authors of Bible, supposedly the word of god? I’m grateful that person like scornful Hamzah leave Islam. We don’t need him to be our liability.
Now you are doing what you assumed as low level thinking yourself. You want to prove that, since people are leaving Islam because Islam has problem with ‘logic’, therefore Islam is not true. What about people leaving Christianity everyday in the West? Does that also means that Christianity is not true also?
Is this typical Christians? Or only you?
Syukri
To Syukri
You say:”…One more thing, there is no credible evidence that this bombing (sept 11, 2001) done by Muslims. Obviously this was done by American themselves to justify their occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq…” Syukri, Nov 17th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
My reply: Am I correct to say that you are blaming Sept 11,2001 on the Americans themselves; that is the Americans planned to kill Americans “to justify their occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq…” as you say.
If so, the twisted view of the world that you have, the great delusion that you are under, the sickness in you head is, I believe, so clear to all that no further comment from me is necessary. This, of course, throws into question everything that you have ever written in promoting and defending Islam. Everything that you have ever written on this blog is from the perspective of one with a delusion.
To all,
Does Vatican has SECRET ACHIEVE?
Yes.Catholic News says:Over sixty researchers visited the Vatican’s SECRET pre-World War II archives yesterday asking to consult more than 30,000 documents dating from the 1922-1939 papacy of Pius XI which were opened for examination this week.
http://www.cathnews.com/news/609/104.php
Vatican Secret Archive website, Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum :
http://asv.vatican.va/home_en.htm
It’s not a Muslim myth.
Salam to all,
Truth said regarding my stand on September 11 conspiracy: If so, the twisted view of the world that you have, the great delusion that you are under, the sickness in you head is, I believe, so clear to all that no further comment from me is necessary.
My reply: That’s not the twisted view of the world. IT IS A MAINSTREAM POLITICAL REALITY As put by Lev Grossman, in TIME CNN:
The population of world No. 2 is LARGER than you might think. A Scripps-Howard poll of 1,010 adults last month found that 36% of Americans consider it “very likely” or “somewhat likely” that government officials either allowed the attacks to be carried out or carried out the attacks themselves. Thirty-six percent adds up to a lot of people. This is not a fringe phenomenon. It is a mainstream political reality.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html
Low level thinking Christians like Truth may think that ‘the twisted view of the world’, ‘the great delusion’ , ‘the sickness in the head’ of Muslims with regard to September 11 denial, but the reality show that 9/11 Movement are largely composed by Non-Muslim Westerners. Wikipedia says:
Adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement come from DIVERSE SOCIAL BACKGROUNDS. The movement draws adherents from both the LEFT and the RIGHT. The Conservative supporters of the movement often come from a Libertarian background.
Prominent adherents of the movement include, among others, theologian David Ray Griffin, physicist Steven E. Jones, software engineer Jim Hoffman, architect Richard Gage, film producer Dylan Avery, former member of the U.S. House of Representatives Cynthia McKinney, actors Daniel Sunjata, Ed Asner, and Charlie Sheen, political science professor Joseph Diaferia and journalists Thierry Meyssan and Robert Fisk.
According to Lev Grossman of TIME magazine, support for the 9/11 Truth movement is not a “fringe phenomenon”, but “a mainstream political reality”. Mark Fenster, a University of Florida law professor and author of the book Conspiracy Theories: Secrecy and Power in American Culture, says that “the amount of organisation” of the movement is significantly stronger than the organization of the movement related to doubts about the official account of the assassination of former United States President John F. Kennedy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_Movement
For more info:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/oct2004/2004-10-29-06.asp
http://www.thevillager.com/villager_268/pentagonpapers.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,369122,00.html
Truth said: I believe, so clear to all that no further comment from me is necessary.
My reply: Dear Truth, If you want to use this as an excuse for your respectable retreat, I will understand because everyone knows now who is living in delusion.
Syukri
To Syukri
There you go again with your Islamic propaganda. The Vatican archives has parts that is “secret” only in the sense that it is not open to the public because of all the priceless documents it contains. What you (and some Muslims) want all to believe is that in the secret archives is some Islamic mythical document such as the ORIGINAL ARAMAIC BIBLE which contains Muhammad’s name and therefore predict’s the coming of Islam (as a true religion that replaces Christianity).
This is another of your delusional beliefs, along with ”…, there is no credible evidence that this bombing (sept 11, 2001) done by Muslims. Obviously this was done by American themselves to justify their occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq…” Syukri, Nov 17th, 2009 at 5:48 pm.
To all…
There might be some leaving Christianity to Islam because they have been given a freedom to choose their own choice. The good news about them is that there will be no forces or persecutions towards them leaving Christianity because we, as Christian, are not been thought to punish who ever leaving their faith. Somehow, the bad news is they have lost their hope for salvations.
Christians does not judge because we know that God is our supreme judges not us. The Bible never thought us to judge or punish them. I can’t imagine what kind of religion Christian is, if it allows the followers to kill anybody that apostate from this religion. Why should we judge when God is our judges. He who judge will also be judged! So who are we to judge?
Do you know that the most rejected religion in the world is Christianity but still stand strong? Do we all know that no other religions had gone through such a tremendous persecution everywhere on this planet but Christianity? Look at Middle East. Look at China. Look at buddist or Muslim countries. How they react towards the existent of Christianity? (I never mean to offend anyone here but to let us think about the reality. So I hope that we just be more open yes)
So when I ask my self…my conclusions is this. After we die, there only two options that is available for us. That’s heaven or hell. With God or with satan. When we are in this earth, it’s about the truth and lies. It’s about eternal life or eternal death. We, on the other hand have to choose the right path.
God missions and desire is to loves and saves people. Satan missions were to kill and destroy.
John 10: (10) The thief ( satan ) comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I (Jesus) came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows).-Amp.Eng.
Now we can see why it is hard for Christianity that persecutions is always at bays. It’s because satan knows that the more people found the truth, the more he is losing power and followers. If we talks about religions, includes those of false teaching of Christianity, do you think that it’s co-incident that it is easy to join other religion without much persecutions OR is it has been made easy so that many people will be deceives and lost their salvation? Think!
Yes, history might show us that there’s certain even happen involving what we thought Christians but that does not project the teaching of Jesus and the Bible. That are more on political or power motivated. Not a single word from Jesus that demanding His followers to declare war against those who prostate or those we considered were the enemy. Instead He insisted that we must love them and pray for them. Matthew 5: (44) But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ).-Amp.Eng. That shows that never-never we should by what ever means or what ever reasons to punish people regarding their faith towards God or religions. Just imagine if we are force to hate and punish our loves one just because we are bound to the religious law. So again brothers and sisters,THINK!
Thank you Lord that I don’t have to hate or kill someone in order to defend religion because I know You have all the powers and glory and that You are in control of everything forever. Amen.
My goodness me…
It looks like the pace of these blog has been on high speed. I’ve not even finish my writings. Am I to slow or you guys to fast? I suggest that all of us here please don’t simply ambush. I think if anyone of us here can’t think of what is of our self, about our own believes, about what we are going to tell others, than just stop it. I am not against the idea of looking for clues or evidence here and there but can we just talk about what Bible and Quran says?
I don’t think we need to dig the whole world yes. Trust me. If I were believe in something, I will not going to believed it because someone says so. I believed in the Bible not because someone makes me believe, but because the Bible itself. It should be the same way you believe in the Quran. So to all, do we have the same stand? If you want to share about Quran, just tell me what Quran tells you and why you believe in it and I will tell what Bible tells me and why I am believes in it. That’s how’s it should go. Don’t you think that Bible or Quran is enough to tell us the truth? By dig the whole world just shows that we are trying to make proof of what we believed. No…that’s not the good ideas. It just shows us that we know nothing about what we believed. Don’t hide behind all those articles or resources yes. Just tells what your faith means to you and share it to others. If you’re not sure or can’t think of it, then just stop and be a reader. God bless.
To Pro-Truth.
In my observation, you are the most civil Christian writer here. You words always mild and diplomatic. You tend to advice than critisize. That’s why I don’t directly write to answer you ( or harras you ). Let’s your comment be a reminder to all of us in our quest of truth.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is an open discussion about Christianity and evangelism, and through the process, has affected Muslims who became subject of evangelism in all over the world especially in Indonesia where poverty makes people prone to manipulation. It is an open secret that Christians use money to encourage people to convert to Christianity. Therefore, it’s contradictory of your statement to potray Christianity as persecuted people as you wrote in your latest comment because you have said clearly that Christians are advanced nations because of their religion:
I do ask my self of why are people still being so stupid believing in this book? Maybe you will say only the fool will believes it. If that so, why are most Christian countries are so ADVANCE these day? I don’t think they even can move forward if they are stupid or fools. There must be something behind this?!!
pro-truth Nov 13th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
To that question, I would like to say that there is no connection between Christianity and technological advancement. Galileo, a scientist was killed by Curch for presumably indicate that science contradict Bible ( that claim sun rotates the earth )that eventually apologized by Pope.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/01/world/vatican-science-panel-told-by-pope-galileo-was-right.html
The west was able to achieve technological advancement during Renaissance when they finally completed Separation of Curch and State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
The ancient Christian countries like Armenia, Ethiopia and Romania still backward.
Now coming back to Christianity and Evangelism. If you think that you have every right as enshrined in your Bible to evangelize people, including poor Muslims in Indonesia and Africa, don’t you think that, to be fair, it’s Muslims right also, in whatever opportunity they have ( like writing in this blogpost ), to defend their faith and counter back?
I’ve tried my best to be as civil as possible, but sometimes I hurt people as people also hurt me. That normal in debate as long as we keep our boundaries. If we Muslims say that Bible is corrupt, Christians also says that Quran is a book of fiction. Allah says in the holy Quran:
29:46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”
I believe in Hell and Heaven like you, what differentiate us is THE WAY or the map to it. We chose Islamic map to go to Heaven. The map is clearer consistent and compatible with the previous scriptures ( like ONENESS OF GOD, belief in human prophet, faith and deed etc ) At least, I don’t have to be confused with so many maps within Christianity itself since you have Trinitarian and Unitarian, pro original sin and anti original sin, different opinion of level of deity of Jesus, can I eat pork or not, do I have to circumsize, which Bible do I have to accept as complete, Catholic version or Prostestant’s, and the list goes on, every denomination differs in every aspect. As one writer put it: Christianity is a religion within religions.
Allah says:
23:117 If anyone invokes, besides Allah, ANY OTHER GOD, he has no authority therefor; and his reckoning will be only with his Lord! and verily the Unbelievers will fail to win through!
Thank you and please forgive me if I’m wrong.
Syukri
To All
Sorry for the error : It was Salim ,(Nov 18th, 2009 at 10:00 am) who wrote about the secret archive in the Vatican and not Syukri. Thus my post on Nov 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm should read:-
The Vatican archives has parts that is “secret” only in the sense that it is not open to the public because of all the priceless documents it contains. What you, Salim,(and some Muslims) want all to believe is that in the secret archives is some Islamic mythical document such as the ORIGINAL ARAMAIC BIBLE which contains Muhammad’s name and therefore predicts the coming of Islam (as a true religion that replaces Christianity).” – as similarly mentioned by Danial in his post:
Daniel, Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
The ‘myth’ among Muslims that the original Bible (with the precise name of MUHAMMAD of course – Truth’s note) is hidden in the Vatican library is not exclusive to Muslims,….”
This is Islamic propaganda, along with: -
“Muslims are peaceful in nature. Only media ( internationally own by Jews ) portray them as terrorist…” Syukri, August 5, 5.55pm.
AND
”…, there is no credible evidence that this bombing (sept 11, 2001) done by Muslims. Obviously this was done by American themselves to justify their occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq…” Syukri, Nov 17th, 2009 at 5:48 pm.
My apologies to Syukri for the mistake of attributing to him something said by Salim.
To Syukri,
In your post (Syukri, Nov 18th, 2009 at 10:43 am) you show that there are groups of people who doubt the commonly held view of what occurred during the Sept 11, 2001 attacks (i.e that the attacks were carried out by extremist Muslims). I am not surprised that you would highlight this views as (from my reading of your writing) I expect you to white-wash Islamic history, the life of Muhammad, the problems within Islam (like the Shia-Sunni divide which results in violence..etc). If it were possible you would have everyone believe that Islam and Muslims can do no wrong. That is why someone ( Hamzah, I think) referred to you as a Dawah-gandist ( a combination of the malay word dawah{ missionary – I think} and propagandist. And that is what you are.
Fortunately people are not that naive to believe everything you say. The attempt to deny that the Sept 11, 2001 attacks were committed by extremist Muslims is in the same category as the ridiculous view held by some that ‘the Jewish Holocaust did not take place during World War 2′. (There are other fringe ideas and conspiracy theories.)
I do not wish to debate with you any more on this subject except to say I will not be surprised to read that one day you, yourself, have done something like the Sept. 11 attacks because you were influenced by Islamic propaganda (some of which is very extreme.){The Wiki article you refer to itself contains criticism of your view ;e.g. -” Eager said that adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement would use the reverse scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, as they “determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn’t fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.”
To be fair, I know that there are other Muslims with more moderate and reasonable views who actively oppose some extreme Islamic ideas. Singapore has its own Islamic extremist problem; a fact that I think you are aware. Your view on what happened on Sept. 11, 2001 is a minority view (probably even within Islam) so it is a waste of my time to focus on such non-mainstream ideas when there are more important ideas that are central to Christianity and Islam that is more worthwhile to address.
To Syukri:
Returning to the Bible, You state in you post :Syukri, Nov 10th, 2009 at 5:31 pm -”…Jesus meant it ( the Christian message) to the Jews only. He never preach to Gentile, in fact, BIBLICAL JESUS DESPISE GENTILES…”.
. I refer you to : Luke 7:1-10 . where Jesus speaks well of a Gentile centurion (i.e.Roman Soldier.) Jesus said : “…. I have not found such great faith even in Israel” Luke 7:9 .
In Mathew 21:33-46 known as the Parable of the tenants (please read the whole passage), Jesus says :” 43″Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” Matthew 21:43 (NIV). AND “45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them.” Matthew 21:45 (NIV).
So Jesus is saying, as I understand, that the kingdom of God will be taken away from the Jews and given to another people (other tenants in the parable) who will produce its fruit.
The note in my Bible states that the “other tenants” are Gentiles. The note goes on to say that by the end of the second century, the church was composed almost entirely of Gentiles.
The spread of the Christian religion beyond the Jewish race is mentioned in the book of Acts.
How can Jesus despise Gentiles,( as you say), when Jesus refers to the Gentiles as “people who will produce its fruit.” Matthew 21:43 (NIV). Syukri, you are in error.
To TATLFTS,
You said:am not surprised that you would highlight this views as (from my reading of your writing) I expect you to white-wash Islamic history, the life of Muhammad, the problems within Islam (like the Shia-Sunni divide which results in violence..etc). If it were possible you would have everyone believe that Islam and Muslims can do no wrong. That is why someone ( Hamzah, I think) referred to you as a Dawah-gandist ( a combination of the malay word dawah{ missionary – I think} and propagandist. And that is what you are.
My reply:I won’t white-wash Islamic history because history is not created by me. And almost all my proof taken from the neutral sources like wiki ( and sometimes from Christian sources itself ). I also won’t be surprise one day you will say that Wikipedia also an ISLAMIC PROPAGANDA. The problem lies actually in you. It’s the MINDSET of programming of what you want to perceive as true or false. It leads to MENTAL BLOCK. No matter what proof, how clear and neutral it is, won’t change your perception. Even if Allah send down Angels to tell that Islam is the truth, you won’t take it.
6:111 Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they ARE NOT THE ONES TO BELIEVE, unless it is in Allah’s plan. But most of them IGNORE (the truth).
The ‘belief’ is so strong that some people are ready to die for their belief. It’s no difference with followers Christian cult of David Koresh who killed themselves for believing the approaching end of the day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_cult
The result of this mental block is stigmatization, stereotyping and labeling. Like branding every Islamic info as propaganda, every Muslims are terrorist ( at least in mind ),all Muslim nations are backward, just like stigma we used to have here in Malaysia ‘ Malay are lazy, Chinese are deceptive, Indian are drunkard, government is corrupt etc’.Prophet Muhammad was labeled as mad, sorcerer, poet, pedophile etc. Quran refers this stereotyping as ‘ ways of the ancients’ because general people who are largely ignorant and don’t want to use their mind, are comfortable of using this stereotyping because it’s easy and safe for the short run.
18:55 And what is there to keep back men from believing, now that Guidance has come to them, nor from praying for forgiveness from their Lord, but that (they ask that) the WAYS OF THE ANCIENTS be repeated with them, or the Wrath be brought to them face to face?
To TATLFTS,
You said:Fortunately people are not that naive to believe everything you say. The attempt to deny that the Sept 11, 2001 attacks were committed by extremist Muslims is in the same category as the ridiculous view held by some that ‘the Jewish Holocaust did not take place during World War 2?. (There are other fringe ideas and conspiracy theories.)
My reply: It’s simple. Might is right. It’s the fact that history and perception of something always been shaped by powerful nation to justify their action In Singaporean history textbook, history of Singapura start with Francis Light instead of Sang Nila Utama to serve some of their agendas. The same goes to you to portray that every information from Muslim as propaganda. I’ve noticed you have resorted to this new approach ( sterotyping ) instead of dealing with that proof ( because I think you have none, right? ). It’s the battle of perception of you instead the battle of ideas and facts.
To TATLFTS,
You said: I do not wish to debate with you any more on this subject except to say I will not be surprised to read that one day you, yourself, have done something like the Sept. 11 attacks because you were influenced by Islamic propaganda (some of which is very extreme.){The Wiki article you refer to itself contains criticism of your view ;e.g. -” Eager said that adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement would use the reverse scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, as they “determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn’t fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion.”
My reply: Who started this debate? I don’t. Previously, I only explain that comparison between Christian atrocities ( like Crusade, Inquisition, Holocaust, War of Religions ) and Muslims atrocities ( like Sep 11 ) are not compatible because Christian atrocities are endorsed by official Christian body like Pope and Kings, while Muslim’s was done by groups, not representing Muslims nations. You are the one who dwelled on Sep 11 topic, not me.
‘I will not be surprised to read that one day you, yourself, have done something like the Sept. 11 attacks because you were influenced by Islamic propaganda’ is the cheap assumption, blatant accusation and desperate propaganda of Christians. It amused me anyway.
To TATLFTS,
You said:To be fair, I know that there are other Muslims with more moderate and reasonable views who actively oppose some extreme Islamic ideas.
My reply: What make you think that I support extreme Islamic ideas? I don’t. Same as I don’t support extreme Christians ideas. ( like what have been done by Christian Serb against Bosnian, IRA activities in Ireland etc ) But just because I don’t support extremism, does not mean that I have to accept all ACCUSATION of Islamic extremism. We have to be objective and fair. And in Sep 11 incident, if it all about the conflict between Islam and Christians, how come many Christians say that it’s government conspiracy? Are they supporting Islamic extremism? Are they terrorist too?
Government of USA has lied about ‘weapon of mass destruction’ in Iraq that they have used to justify their occupation, they also don’t mind to send their sons and daughters to be killed in Iraq.It’s thousand of them, killed everyday. What has stopped them to bomb some of their own people to justify their strategic plan of a greater cause? During British colonization, this is what they did ( kill some of their citizen ) to justify their occupation on the pretext of defending their strategic interest.
To TALFTS,
You said:What you, Salim,(and some Muslims) want all to believe is that in the secret archives is some Islamic mythical document such as the ORIGINAL ARAMAIC BIBLE which contains Muhammad’s name and therefore predicts the coming of Islam (as a true religion that replaces Christianity).
My reply: In my observation, Aramaic Bible is only bonus for Muslims. We don’t depend on the Bible to uphold the truthfulness of Islam. If actually there is not aramaic Bible there, it will be no problem at all. In fact, there are many Christians converts to Islam based the basic principle of Islam alone. Even some priests converted to Islam after discovering the Paraclete is actually referring to Prophet Muhamad, like ex Rev David Benjamin Keldani ( Christians consider him as hoax, same mentality with TALFTS; everything about Islam is propaganda ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Benjamin_Keldani
I can sense the desperation of Christian to defend Greek Bible, by hook and by crook, because Christianity is built on the loopholes of the system during the chaotic period of persecution, exodus, differences etc. They NEED that loopholes. They depend on it. They know that if they revert to Aramaic, many theological aspect of Christianity will be nullified. Eg, the word son of god in Aramaic is an endearment title, not suggesting any divine traits as they tried in Greek Bible. If the Pope make a decision to revert to Aramaic Bible, Christianity will be upside down. They have already many problem with current Greek Bible which lead to many translations ( faulty one as admitted by TALFTS ) and different interpretations that lead to many denominations, cults, groups etc…Again, this all are Islamic propaganda.
Salam to all,
Just some good reading ( or Islamic propaganda, but from Christian source
:
EXISTENCE OF WHITE CHURCH AND BLACK CHURCH
Ironguru said Christians in the UK were UNABLE to defend the Gospel to Muslims because they did not understand the strategy of other faiths. He added that the failure of the BLACK and WHITE churches to embrace each other was allowing Islam to gain ground in the UK “faster than the church is gaining converts”.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/black.and.white.churches.called.to.speak.with.one.voice/24661.htm
DYING CHURCH ( probably because the success of Islamic propaganda )
Mr Kennedy told the Mission21 conference of a time when his church in Southampton had closed its doors for a nine month renovation and sent its members out to hold church services elsewhere in the community. Some of the members discovered DWINDLING congregations in the local churches and decided to stay and help them to revive.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/god.can.bring.life.to.dying.churches.pioneer.leader/24667.htm
To Syukri,
You say:” Might is right. It’s the fact that history and perception of something always been shaped by powerful nation to justify their action…… The same goes to you to portray that every information from Muslim as propaganda. I’ve noticed you have resorted to this new approach ( sterotyping ) INSTEAD OF DEALING WITH that PROOF ( because I think you have none, right? ). It’s the battle of perception of you instead the battle of ideas and facts.” -Syukri, Nov 20th, 2009 at 9:05 am.
My reply: I believe I have been bringing proof and facts to you. But what ever proof I bring, whether it is from history or the Bible, (or of your many mistakes that I point out – as well as the errors of other Muslims -) you will reject because you will say “history and perception of something always been shaped by powerful nation” or the powerful Church (or other excuses). So please do not make lame propaganda statements that I do not deal with proof. Proof is something that you do not want to recognise.
As an example: perhaps you would like to respond to my statement to ‘Bible is CORRUPTED’ regarding the belief by some Muslims (including Ahmad Deedat) that Muhammad is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16 (Hebrew version). I said “Are you saying that the MERE MENTION of Muhammad’s name (supposedly) in the “pornographic book ” Song of Solomon 5:16” {Hebrew version) makes it more acceptable than a description of Muhammad in the “pornographic book “. There is a problem there for Muslims. It is only whether Muslims will admit it. -truth and light from the Son, Nov 16th, 2009 at 9:57 pm (please read the post to get a clearer picture of the problem I see with the belief that Muhammad is mentioned in the “PORNOGRAPHIC BOOK” Song of Solomon.) ‘Bible is corrupted’ has chosen not to reply. How about you, Syukri ( or Danial also , since Danial, I believe, was the one who originally said that Muhammad is mentioned in Song of Solomon.)
I focus on this topic (of Song of Solomon 5:16 and Muhammad’s name) because it is a good example of Islamic propaganda and its flaws.
To all,
I’m won’t be dragged by your possession about this matter. I’ve cleared my stand, together with Bible is CORRUPTED. I believe you will capitalize this again and again due to your inability to clarify many more important things like authenticity of Bible, its authors, its original language and Christians atrocities.
Readers, please read my previous reply because I don’t want to be coiled to play Truth’s repetitive desperate pathetic antic game.
Daniel Nov 12th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Bible is CORRUPTED Nov 16th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Daniel Al Islam
to TALFTS,
You said:My reply: I believe I have been bringing proof and facts to you. But what ever proof I bring, whether it is from history or the Bible, (or of your many mistakes that I point out – as well as the errors of other Muslims -) you will reject because you will say “history and perception of something always been shaped by powerful nation” or the powerful Church (or other excuses). So please do not make lame propaganda statements that I do not deal with proof. Proof is something that you do not want to recognise.
My reply: What proof? Readers can see no proof you brought for your claims. Tell me your NEUTRAL source that you use here. Any credible historical account? NONE. Please compare my comments and your comments from the beginning. Are you blindfolded?
Now,Can Bible be used as proof? No. Why? Because Bible is biased to Christians just like Quran is biased to Muslims. It can only be supporting proof, not main proof.
You misuse my quotation with regard to my acceptance to history, ( you accused me of rejecting history ) while actually I was referring it to MANIPULATION of powerful nation to history. I accept that Sep 11 was a piece of history. No doubt. I just don’t accept that it was done by Muslims in light of evidences and proof presented by neutral sources. It’s for all to see how cunning can a Christian be. Thanks.
You are sick and need help. ( But not curable I guess ) Your twisting skill is a reflection of your twisted belief and mind. I repeat again here, you don’t deal with concrete and neutral proof, but only fictitious and imaginary proof ( mostly from translations of Greek Bible, supposedly unknown word of unknown god ).
You have been entertaining, as always.
Syukri
to Truth
Correction:
I’m won’t be dragged by your ‘obsession’ about this matter.
Amazing facts. Most of terrorist incidents are carried out by Christians like Quebec separatist, IRA separatist, Ulster Volunteer Force, Ku Klux Klan etc. A fact that considered by TALFTS as propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents
Caution: If you are a staunch Christians, don’t read wiki, it’s Islamic propaganda.
One more thing. Muslim terrorist was initially suspected behind Oklahoma City Bombing, but later they found out it was carried out by Christian terrorists; Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Michael Fortiers and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
Now, TALFTS, don’t you think that this is history? What do you think? Please don’t say that Timothy and friends are actually Muslims in disguise.
Syukri
To Syukri,
Looks like you are in form again, doing what you as a Dawa-gandist is in the habit of doing; that is spreading anything that (hopefully for you) can make Christianity look bad. (This is with reference to your post -Syukri, Nov 21st, 2009 at 8:50 pm.)
Some of your points do not even make sense as it is not even related to the topic of Christianity. e.g. Quebec separatist (of Canada) from my general knowledge (and listening to the BBC) is about the division between the English speaking and French speaking Canadians which has its roots in the fighting that took place between the British and the French (before the USA even existed) over land that is now part of Canada. The only link that you may try to make is that the Separatist Canadians are Orang Putih (white men) and so are assumed to be by tradition, at least, Christian but their cause is political and not religious. There were some incidents of bombings in the 1970s that I read about but these were more politically inspired than religiously inspired unlike Sept 11, 2001 attacks which the vast majority of people think has religious reasons , I think is fair to say. Also it is a case of Christians hurting Christians as you Syukri may want to see it as, if the Quebec separatist issue has anything to do with religion. Compare that with Sept. 11, 2001 which is seen by many as extremist Muslims killing non-Muslims. (Sorry, I forgot. You “don’t accept that it ‘-Sept 11 attacks’ was done by Muslims…” Syukri, Nov 21st, 2009 at 8:16 pm) Your determination to make Christianity look bad is affecting your mind. You are in denial. You do not want to face the truth. The name IRA at least rings a bell in most people’s mind as terrorist but Quebec separatist??? It shows how desperate you are to make Christianity look bad that you would bring up OLD ( i.e. from the 1970s bombing), DOUBTFUL (that religion is involved) and OBSCURE(i.e – little known) points in your Islamic propaganda.
To Syukri,
You say of me:” I’ve noticed you have resorted to this new approach ( sterotyping ) instead of dealing with that proof ( because I think you have none, right? ). It’s the battle of perception of you instead the battle of ideas and FACTS.” Syukri, Nov 20th, 2009 at 9:05 am.
My reply: It is strange that you should mention “BATTLE OF PERCEPTION” because you (and other Muslims) have been repeating old, worn out, over used ideas such as CRUSADES, INQUISITION when attacking Christianity. It is you who is engaging in “BATTLE OF PERCEPTION “. Muslims like you will tell propaganda stories of a time when under Islamic rule Jews, Muslims and Christians supposedly lived peacefully together, conveniently avoiding the fact that Jews and Christians are not happy to live as second class citizens ( because that is what one is , if one lives in an Islamic country where one is not a Muslim.) That applies centuries ago and that applies now in Muslim countries. That is a FACT that you do not want to admit because it goes against commonsense (which means that this Islamic belief is illogical; implying Islam is illogical.).
As a non-Muslim citizen of an Islamic country, there is always the concern that one’s universal human rights (including religious rights) is not being given equal treatment. That is a FACT. There are many other FACTS that non-Muslims know which I do not need to state (because it is in the news and internet) and which you will not state in your Islamic propaganda (of course). You, Syukri will have to convince (yourself first – by brainwashing because it goes against common sense, and then) everyone that non-Muslims will ever willingly and happily accept Islamic rule. It is a problematic situation that Muslim states have state set up.
The next logical question is : which version of an Islamic state? Sunni, Shia.. .? These past few days, I have been reading about a Muslim preacher in Malaysia who was in trouble with the law because he did not have a permit to preach and also because it was believed he was WAHABI in his beliefs. There is little need for me to expand on the points that I have just written as I believe most readers are well informed (by reading the news ) about the problems that arise in Muslim countries (e.g. I-am- more-true-to- Islam-than –you mentality…etc.)
You may say that there were so-called “Christian states” before and so there were similar problems. But there is a difference. Lord Jesus never set up a Christian state. {Today, if anyone refers to e.g. America as a Christian country, they more probably think of it as a country with a majority (70 – 80%) Christian population rather than like the way Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country with its Syariah Laws.}
Lastly regarding what you describe as my “new approach (stereo-typing)”. I may address that accusation later. But your approach is not new, that is – Islamic propaganda from your earliest post on this blog. I am not inclined to appeal to history as you PRETEND to do in you Islamic propaganda because I have always been aware Dawa-gandist like you will say : ” Might is right. It’s the fact that history and perception of something always been shaped by powerful nation ……… ” -Syukri, Nov 20th, 2009 at 9:05 am. – So any PROOF from history I bring to support my case you will say is not valid, not that I am not able to bring proof. One should not reason with the unreasonable. I write here more for those who read this blog than to reply to you as I wish to show those who read these posts that your Islamic propaganda is a lot of emptiness and hot air. (There is at least one Muslim – I think- who finds your writing lacking in quality. I refer you to – Ridzuan,Apr 27th, 2009 at 6:19 pm. It is the last post in the blog-site: Another Malay Christian…
In it Ridzuan says: “And your ( Syukri) facts are so ILLOGICAL. All you did was quoted it from some website and expect people to listen to you as though you are some scholar.” ( CAPITALS MINE).
To Syukri,
You say: “Can Bible be used as proof? No. Why? Because Bible is biased to Christians just like Quran is biased to Muslims…..” -Syukri Nov 21st, 2009 at 8:16 pm.
My reply: The Bible is to be use as proof in my reply to you when you, Syukri, talk about what the Bible says. That is the logical thing to do.
For example: You say that Jesus intended to have His message taught to the Jews only -(Syukri’s post on Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:28 pm). My reply is given in -” truth and light from the Son,Nov 10th, 2009 at 9:47 pm”. And I quote: Jesus said: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus). Therefore, GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS,..” (Matthew 28:18-19).
Another example: You state in you post :Syukri, Nov 10th, 2009 at 5:31 pm -”…, BIBLICAL JESUS DESPISE GENTILES…”. My reply is given from the Bible because you say BIBLICAL Jesus (not Islamic Jesus). I have no other option but to show that you are wrong from the Bible itself based on what the Bible says since you refer to the Bible.(Please see my post-.”truth and light from the Son Nov 20th, 2009 at 1:47 am”). (NOTE:The discussion in todays’s post, here, is about what the Bible says, NOT whether the Bible is true, accurate, or God’s Word. It is just about comprehension.)
So using the Bible as proof is the logical thing to do when one wants to establish what the Bible says and refute your UNTRUTHFUL Islamic propaganda on what the Bible says. (This should be obvious.)
Also I wish to ask: Do you say that the Bible cannot be used as proof”Because Bible is biased to Christians ” after I have so many times shown, from the Bible, that you ( and other Muslims) are talking nonsense? Also, you are ILLOGICAL in referring to the Bible because, as you say,”.. Bible is biased to Christians…” so I as a Christian should always win when talking about the Bible because as you say,”.. Bible is biased to Christians…” . Is that not so?
To TALFTS,
I think enough have been said about September 11, and my stand about it is no different with many people, Muslim and non-Muslims, among others David Ray Griffin, a Christian theologian who said:”Until the spring of 2003, I had not looked at any of the evidence. I was vaguely aware there were people, at least on the internet, who were offering evidence against the official account of 9/11… I knew the US government had ‘fabricated’ evidence to go to war several times before. Nevertheless… I did not take this possibility seriously… I was so confident that they must be wrong.”
http://bogusstory.com/911_inside_job.html
It’s strange that a Christian theologian was deceived by Islamic propaganda ( if it was truly one ). It’s pathetic for people like you to force your belief on people throat and label people who reject it as extremist opponent. It only shows your desperation.
I still remember, when this incident happened, US government produced letters that they claimed from September 11 bombers sent as farewell to their family. The ‘letter’ started with something like ‘ With the name of Allah, my family and country. It was very obvious that Muslims don’t write the name of Allah with other creation, even with Prophet Muhammad. The letter was written in Islamic content ( jihad, syahid etc ) but with Christian flavor because only Christians compare their god with other creation ( in the name of holy father, Jesus, holy ghost ). The latter quickly ‘disappear’ afterward.
Due to your diverting and twisting skill ( learnt from Bible authors ), I almost forget the original topic of this discussion. It’s about Crusade and Sept 11 example that you brought to highlight on low level thinking people ( sadly to say, you also put Pro-Truth to this category ). For everyone sake, I repeat that comparison between Crusade and September 11 that you made is not fair and compatible. Crusade was supported by official Christian body representing Christians while September 11 was (suspectedly ) carried out by a Muslim group, not representing Muslim nation.
You have been writing so much about September 11 and Quebec Separatist, now I and readers will be glad to read from you about Crusade and Inquisition. Wasn’t it politically and religiously motivated? Was it more acceptable than September 11? It will be interesting because you have been escaping all these while.
People are divided in deciding the perpetrator of September 11, while they are unanimously agree that Christians are behind Crusade and Inquisition. In the view of Christian propaganda perspective, what do you say?
Syukri
You said:I think is fair to say. Also it is a case of Christians hurting Christians as you Syukri may want to see it as, if the Quebec separatist issue has anything to do with religion.
My reply:OK. Point noted on Quebec stuff. What about IRA, Serbian and Ku Klux Klan?
You said:Muslims like you will tell propaganda stories of a time when under Islamic rule Jews, Muslims and Christians supposedly lived peacefully together, conveniently avoiding the fact that Jews and Christians are not happy to live as second class citizens ( because that is what one is , if one lives in an Islamic country where one is not a Muslim.) That applies centuries ago and that applies now in Muslim countries.
My reply: This is another simplistic argument from Christian propagandist. If you are not happy with your country over petty things, does that also your county is altogether bad? Who could say that he or she is happy with everything? Or you want everybody happy, then it indicate everything is good? Come on. You know that’s not realistic even in most freeist country. How simplistic you are.
Looking in the perspective at that time ( meaning that Islamic rule must be compared with Christian rule then, not secular western nation today ), living as second class citizens ( it’s still a perception though ) under Islamic rule are far more humane than no class citizens at all under Christian rule. Under Christian rule, you must convert to Christianity or die ( or flee ). Read history of Spain after they captured Andalus and Crusade ( when they slaughtered even Eastern Christians who live side by side with Muslims ). Show me any ancient mosque in Europe under Christian rule. I can show you ancient churches in Muslims countries. Again, for blindfolded, they believe what they want to believe say this propaganda.
Now, are Muslims happy and enjoy first class citizenship in so called democratic countries today? Hijab is not allowed for girls in Singapore, France and Holland, while turban for Sikh allowed to be worn in schools. What kind of freedom is this? Selective freedom? It’s just a piece of cloth that you afraid of.
You said:The next logical question is : which version of an Islamic state? Sunni, Shia.. .? These past few days, I have been reading about a Muslim preacher in Malaysia who was in trouble with the law because he did not have a permit to preach and also because it was believed he was WAHABI in his beliefs. There is little need for me to expand on the points that I have just written as I believe most readers are well informed (by reading the news ) about the problems that arise in Muslim countries (e.g. I-am- more-true-to- Islam-than –you mentality…etc.)
Another propaganda from Christian about Sunni shia. For your info, Conflict between Sunni and Shia are regional in nature, unlike sporadic in Christianity. There was no inter-states war between sunni shia in history ( only clashes like happen everywhere ), while War of Religions in Europe between Catholic and Protestant countries and killed millions.
About Wahabi things, that’s normal. Everyone needs permit to hold anything, just like in Singapore. Over there, two people gathering can be considered as demonstration and can be arrested! What a freedom. About holier than thou stuff, what about Pope saying other Christians denominations are not correct? At least as Muslims, we don’t consider other sect as heretic since we still pray together side by side especially during hajj and champion common cause ( Palestine issues, Israel occupations, world hegemony etc ).
You said:I am not inclined to appeal to history as you PRETEND to do in you Islamic propaganda because I have always been aware Dawa-gandist like you will say : ” Might is right. It’s the fact that history and perception of something always been shaped by powerful nation ……… ”
My reply: lame excuse from Christians because they cannot produce proof from history. Even when they produce, it can be easily refuted by credible neutral evidence. That’s why they don’t use it at all, for fear that it will backlash them. As always, by using twisted out of context quote.
For all,
I’m going for holiday ( Hari Raya Haji ). I would like to wish happy eid to all my muslims fellows especially Eric, Daniel, Talib and Bible is CORRUPTED, and to all Christians readers. Will not be writing for a while.
Syukri
To Daniel,
You say (Nov 21st, 2009 at 7:44 pm) -
“I’m won’t be dragged by your(truth’s) [obsession] about this matter [i.e. Muhammad's name being mention in Song of Solomon 5:16 is one of the big errors that I consider to be easiest to prove to be illogical. I have read of this before but I did not want to mention it. I was thinking that it would be better if a Muslim brought up this point.
Fortunately for me, you Danial brought up this point.
Later you (Danial) were contradicted by ‘Bible is CORRUPTED’ -(Nov 11th, 2009 at 1:08 am) who said that Muhammd is not mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16.
Later ‘Bible is CORRUPTED’ – corrected his earlier stand. – “Thanks too bro (Danial) for making my first reply to truth clearer. It is my stand now that I see the Person Prophet Muhammad was not described in such a PORNOGRAPHIC BOOK but instead it was just the name thats been mentioned.” -(Bible is CORRUPTED, Nov 16th, 2009 at 5:17 pm).) He now says that Muhammad is “mentioned” in Song of Solomon 5:16 and not “described” in Song of Solomon 5:16. (which somehow by his Islamic logic makes it more acceptable that their HOLY PROPHET is merely mentioned in this PORNOGRAPHIC BOOK in this way.)
I suggest that ‘Bible is CORRUPTED’ changed his stand because I pointed out that even the famous Muslim Propagandist Ahmad Deedat says that Muhammad is mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16. Surely he does not want to contradict Ahmad Deedat.
To All
My focusing on this point does not prove that Islam is not true. The belief that Muhammad’s name is mentioned in Song of Solomon is not central to Islam as the beliefs mentioned in the Apostle’s Creed is necessary in mainstream Christianity. However some Muslims may find troubling that this popular belief in Islam is not without its problems (e.g. Muhammad is mentioned along with WINE -Song of Solomon 1:2 and Song of Solomon 1:4 which is forbidden in Islam, in a PORNOGRAPHIC BOOK).
So Muslim Propagandist (like Ahmad Deedat) put themselves in a difficult position by trying to prove that Muhammad is mentioned in Song of Solomon. If Muslims say there is no problem here, it is because they prefer to close their eyes. I hope all readers appreciate my sample here of the use of Islamic logic by Muslim propagandist (like Ahmad Deedat). Any comments anyone? (Danial and Bible is CORRUPTED have said that they will say no more on this topic.)
To all,
It’s thoroughly amusing to see Truth’s obsession about Song of Solomon. He know that Muhammad’s name mentioned in that verses is not important to Islam. Whether it was really mentioned or not is nothing and unsubstantial at all. The best I can say is : it’s UNSURE . However, luckily Muslim don’t depend to that verses to accept the truthfulness of The Holy Quran. But Truth likes this verses very very much. Hmm.. I wonder why.
One SURE thing he I noticed, he repeatedly admitted again and again that Song of Solomon is a PORNOGRAPHIC BOOK, supposedly a word of GOD ( who forbid sexual promiscuity ) that he hailed as a PROOF and inspiration. Thank you Truth for exposing how fragile your book is. I’m sure you don’t read this passage to your kid. Do you? Oh, if you do. then I will understand why ‘free sex’ started in predominantly Christians countries. What? Gay and lesbian? Child abuse? Well, No surprise, right? You have all sort of denomination that allow this and that since your salvation is already granted.
Therefore, Muslims don’t lose anything if the verses did not really mention the name of Muhammad, but surely image of Christianity has tainted as a book of cocktail of ancient fables, stories, steamy personal diaries of unsung and UNKNOWN authors.
Ya Allah. Aku bersyukur kepadaMu atas nikmat Islam dan Iman. Ampunkanlah dosaku dan masukkanlahku kedalam syurgaMu yang penuh kenikmatan dan kekekalan abadi. Amin.
Daniel Al Islam
To all
SONG OF SOLOMON leaves us two conclusion:
Word referring to literal Muhammad in Bible.
=Probably yes and no.
= in other word: NOT CERTAIN
( Muslim don’t lose anything though)
Bible is a pornographic book.
=Yes as ascertained by Truth repetatively.
=in other word: CERTAIN AND CONFIRMED
( Christians lose their Bible credibility because their god forbids sexual promiscuity and promotes it at the same time ).
Therefore, a collection of fact from your own word, Truth:
1)Bible only completed after 400 years A.D, confirming the interference of unknown entity to supposedly word of God.
2)Bible translations are faulty that lead to misrepresentation of ideas and facts.
3)Bible is not easily understood, confirming the existence of many ‘hidden hand’ that leads to inconsistencies and contradiction, therefore, not easily understood.
4) ( This is latest ) Bible is the pornographic book.
Wow!!
Daniel Al Islam
To Danial,
You say : “…(truth) know that Muhammad’s name mentioned in that verses is not important to Islam. Whether it was really mentioned or not is nothing and unsubstantial at all. The best I can say is : it’s UNSURE .
My reply: Then why did you mention it( in Daniel, Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am)?. Are you trying to score points for Islam with something that is “nothing and unsubstantial at all”?. You are muddled.
By saying your words that I have quoted, you go against Ahmad Deedat (and his videos on this topic which is easily found on the internet.) Your words, the words of ‘Bible is corrupted’ and Deedat are in contradiction with each other. You, ‘Bible is corrupted’ and Deedat have put yourselves in difficult and opposing positions. (I invite all readers to read the words of this three persons that I have mentioned regarding this topic). This topic clearly shows the quality of Islamic logic in dakwah(missionary) propaganda. That is why I have focused on it.
To continue: You say (in Daniel,Nov 24th, 2009 at 3:25 pm) :
SONG OF SOLOMON leaves us two conclusion:
“Word referring to literal Muhammad in Bible.
=Probably yes and no. ” – Danial . (my reply: Are Muslims afraid to take a stand. I thought answers are “yes OR no”. In Islamic logic the answer is ‘yes AND no’. Islamic logic must have rules different from normal logic)
“= in other word: NOT CERTAIN ” -Danial (my reply : Danial is not certain but Deedat is certain)
( Muslim don’t lose anything though – Danial) (my reply : Either Danial or Deedat lose credibility. If Deedat lose credibility, his arguments to prove Islam is true will be seen as nonsense. So one of Islam’s top defenders who challenged the Pope to a debate is talking nonsense. Which makes one wonder if all Islamic thought is nonsense.
“Bible is a pornographic book.
=Yes as ascertained by Truth repetatively.
=in other word: CERTAIN AND CONFIRMED
( Christians lose their Bible credibility because their god forbids sexual promiscuity and promotes it at the same time ).” -Danial.
My reply : “PORNOGRAPHIC BOOK” is the term used by ‘Bible is CORRUPTED’ to refer to -Song of Solomon. I only use HIS term to high-light the fact that in doing so he places himself in a difficult position because Deedat says that your HOLY PROPHET is mentioned in a book ‘Bible is CORRUPTED’ considers PORNOGRAPHIC. By using that term I make it very clear how ridiculous the positions of certain Muslims are. Perhaps Danial you would like to state whether you or Deedat is correct because you contradict Deedat. You are UNSURE but Deedat is. Also, do you agree with ‘Bible is corrupted’ that Song of Solomon is pornographic? (Friendly hint: This is a trick question)
To Syukri
I said:”Muslims like you will tell propaganda stories of a time when under Islamic rule Jews, Muslims and Christians supposedly lived peacefully together, conveniently avoiding the fact that Jews and Christians are not happy to live as second class citizens ( because that is what one is , if one lives in an Islamic country where one is not a Muslim.) That applies centuries ago and that applies now in Muslim countries. That is a FACT that you do not want to admit because it goes against commonsense (which means that this Islamic belief is illogical; implying Islam is illogical.) -.truth and light from the Son,Nov 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 am.
Your reply:Syukri-
“This is another simplistic argument from Christian propagandist. If you are not happy with your country over petty things, does that also your county is altogether bad? Who could say that he or she is happy with everything? Or you want everybody happy, then it indicate everything is good? Come on. You know that’s not realistic even in most freeist country. How simplistic you are.” – Syukri.-Nov 23rd, 2009 at 4:53 am- Syukri.
My reply: Your reply does not even address the issue. The issue is -”….Jews and Christians are not happy to live as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS (in MUSLIM COUNTRIES)…”truth and light from the Son,Nov 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 am. – and also the next related question “How do Muslims/Muslim states make non-Muslims happily and willingly accept Islamic rule/Islamic laws?”. THERE IS NO ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS. I say that because I will never happily and willingly live under the laws of a religion that is not my own. I believe every other non-Muslim will feel this way. (Secular laws are more likely to be equally acceptable to everyone as in Singapore and other secular democratic countries.) The fact that THERE IS NO ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS indicates that Islam is illogical and therefore untrue (at least, this version of Islam is false.
The existance of a Muslim/Islamic State is problematic (both for the Muslim as well as the non-Muslim within its borders). The problem that arises is an indication of the lack of logic/ commonsense within the version of Islam within that Muslim/Islamic State.
I use the expression “version of Islam” because there may be groups of Muslims who do not believe the Islamic state should exist. I say this because one of my ex-colleagues (who is a Muslim), while in the office, on reading an article in the newspapers related to the Islamic state commented that an Islamic state should not exist unless its citizens is 100% Muslim. When I asked him to repeat what he had said (as I wanted to find out his thoughts on the matter), he kept quiet. Possibly, he realized that what he said was not the mainstream Islamic view and that he could get into trouble with other Muslims for saying what he had said.
From the Internet I see a diversity of views on topics within Islam. So to hear a diversity of views about the Islamic State should not be surprising.
Now I wish to clarify with you, Syukri, did you miss my point (deliberately perhaps)? I said “….Jews and Christians are not happy to live as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS (in MUSLIM COUNTRIES)”
You (Syukri) reply :”If you are not happy with your country over petty things, does that also your county is altogether bad?” -Syukri. Not wanting to live under Islamic law is not ” petty things”.
I was not talking about being a citizen in any country in general BUT specifically about being a non-Muslim citizen in a Muslim country. Are you trying to avoid the issue? If not, then perhaps you would like to answer “How do Muslims/Muslim states make non-Muslims happily and willingly accept Islamic rule/Islamic laws?”
As to your post ” Under Christian rule, you must convert to Christianity or die ( or flee ). Read history of Spain after they captured Andalus and Crusade ……etc. “. Here you again appeal to history to try to make the Christian religion look bad (as is your usual style) or are you trying to distract everyone from the real issues for which there is no answer . I do not need to do as you do , that is, appealing to history. Using common sense alone helps us to see the lack of logic within Islam on the topic of the Islamic State.
To Syukri
You say: “For everyone sake, I repeat that comparison between Crusade and September 11 that you made is not fair and compatible. Crusade was supported by official Christian body representing Christians while September 11 was (suspectedly ) carried out by a Muslim group, not representing Muslim nation.”- SyukriNov 23rd, 2009 at 4:20 am.
My reply: I think you are attributing to me intentions I do not have.
You say I made a ” comparison between Crusade and September 11 “ -.
However if readers were to see my post –( truth and light from the Son-Nov 14th, 2009 at 2:23 am ) here I say “To give you an example of low-level thinking : e.g Christianity is not true because of the bad things that happen during the Crusades. Or Islam is not true because of September 11, 2001. Clear thinking persons will see that bad examples of persons who claim to be Christian does not make the religion false,. (likewise for Muslims.).” – Here I am only showing examples of people who claim to be Christians or Muslims doing bad things. (Also I am saying, even if Muslims committed the Sept 11 acts, it does not make Islam false.) I am giving examples. I am not making a comparison. Are you trying to draw me into a debate as to who (Christians or Muslims) have committed more atrocities. That would be another of your mistakes. The reason is very simple, even if it can be shown that Muslims have committed more atrocities, it still does not prove that Islam is false. I would be engaging in worthless propaganda. That is why I do not go down that road. It is a dead end. I try to look for better arguments than that.
However, I notice that you, Syukri are fond of repeating topics like, CRUSADE, INQUISITION, IRA, Serbian and Ku Klux (your latest propanganda post), the Spaniard who exploited the natives of South America…etc. Have you got no better arguments? These points do not prove Christianity false and Islam true. And at the end of all that you accuse me of “battle of perception of you instead the battle of ideas and FACTS.”( Syukri, Nov 20th, 2009 at 9:05 am.) – when it is you who is bringing up all these things like CRUSADE, INQUISITION, IRA, Serbian and Ku Klux . It is you, Syukri who is engaging in BATTLE OF PERCEPTION because, I say, ideas within Islam like ISLAMIC STATE, and ‘Muhammad being mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:16’ can be shown to be flawed. You must engage in BATTLE OF PERCEPTION because Islam cannot stand in the free and fair battle of ideas as Christianity can. Christianity does not need to resort to laws that try to keep people within the Christian religion even when those people do not believe the religion to be true.
Can you say the same things of Islam in Muslim countries. Surely “the battle of ideas and FACTS.”( Syukri, Nov 20th, 2009 at 9:05 am.)” does not require laws or force (e.g. re-education camps) to be used. Let us see you ,Syukri, answers these IDEAS – (No propaganda please).
To TALFS,
You said: Your reply does not even address the issue. The issue is -”….Jews and Christians are not happy to live as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS (in MUSLIM COUNTRIES)…”truth and light from the Son,Nov 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 am.
My reply: When I said about Muslim and Jews as ‘no class citizen’ ( not even second or third class citizen ) under Christian rule, I’ve ACTUALLY already addressed your question. Meaning that, if you are worst than me, how can you say that I’m bad? You have no authority to say that at all. Example, if you have killed a person, then his family beaten you, you can’t say that his family is bad for beating you alone, hiding the fact that you have done thing worst than that. But desperate Christian evangelist will do anything to discredit Islam.
Then you said:The fact that THERE IS NO ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS indicates that Islam is illogical and therefore untrue (at least, this version of Islam is false.
Interestingly you ended by saying: However, I notice that you, Syukri are fond of repeating topics like, CRUSADE, INQUISITION, IRA, Serbian and Ku Klux (your latest propanganda post), the Spaniard who exploited the natives of South America…etc. Have you got no better arguments? These points do not prove Christianity false and Islam true.
My comment: You demanded my answer for issue of ‘second class citizen of non Muslim under Islamic rule’ ( which I replied by bringing issue of ‘ no class citizen’ of Muslim under Christian rule. Using your usual simplistic Christian thinking, my NON DIRECT ANSWER was considered as NO ANSWER, and ‘no answer’ indicates that Islam is illogical and therefore untrue by yuou.)
BUT, you refused my demand of answer for issues of ATROCITIES under Christian rule like Crusade, Inquisition etc( which is more serious than issue of second class citizenship under Islamic rule ). You DID NOT ANSWER my question at all ( just like many other issues like who are authors of Bible etc ).
So by using your own simplistic judgment ( no answer indicates that something is illogical and therefore untrue ), I would like to say that Christianity also is not true because of your failure to answer my question about Crusade, Inquisition etc.
The fact that Crusade, Inquisition, Holocaust and recently Massacre of Serbrenica in Bosnia are crimes against humanity ( that Pope eventually apologized for some of it )and show that Christianity has failed to lead humanity to path of god and inconsistent with deceptive Christian propaganda of peace and love, therefore is untrue and illogical.
You said: Your reply does not even address the issue. The issue is -”….Jews and Christians are not happy to live as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS (in MUSLIM COUNTRIES)…”truth and light from the Son,Nov 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 am
My reply: What is your definition of ‘second class’ citizen under Muslim rule? Is that because non-Muslims have to pay tax ( jizyah ) which some consider as discrimination? Well, the answer is simple, Muslims have to pay zakat ( tithe ) which is not compulsory to non-Muslims. By paying jizyah, non Muslims enjoy every citizen right as Muslim, plus they don’t have to go to war. That’s the fair deal.
Or because non Muslim have to wear different cloth that make them second class citizen? If that so, what about Jews living under christian rule who need to show their ‘David star’ and subject to inhumane living condition in ghettos? ( I saw a Jewish boy wearing david star in Apocalypse 2 featuring second world war, National Geographic series in Astro ) Are Christians treated Jews as first class citizen when they are massacred en mass and driven out of their countries in French, Spain and Germany?
Tell me what makes Jews and Christians live as second class citizen under Muslim rule? And additional question: what make Muslims live as first class citizen under Christian rule and when?
Let me tell you. Non Muslims are happy living under Muslim rule. Jewish golden age was under Muslim rule! Shocking, huh? Since Christian propaganda will accuse that is Muslim propaganda. That’s is the FACT as you requested, not propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain
Another shocking electrifying fact. Muslim did not wipe out Christianity when they invaded Constantinople. They even preserved it. The existence of ancient churches in Turkey, completed with their ancient hierarchy in modern day Constantinople is the living proof of Islamic justice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Patriarchate_of_Constantinople
Read about Muslim treatment to ancient Coptic Christian which is better than from their own Christian brethren:Copts suffered under the rule of the Byzantine Eastern Roman Empire. The Melkite Patriarchs, appointed by the emperors as both spiritual leaders and civil governors, massacred the Egyptian population whom they considered heretics. Many Egyptians were tortured and martyred to accept the terms of Chalcedon, but Egyptians remained loyal to the faith of their fathers and to the Cyrillian view of Christology. One of the most renowned Egyptian saints of that period is Saint Samuel the Confessor. The Muslim conquest of Egypt took place in AD 639. Despite the political upheaval, the Egyptian population remained mainly Christian. However, the gradual conversions to Islam over the centuries changed Egypt from a Christian to a largely Muslim country by the end of the 12th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_Church_of_Alexandria
Now I have answered your question. Satisfied? My further question.
Can Christianity do the same ( Islamic justice and equality )? I don’t think so. That why you don’t want to talk about it.
You said:Here I am only showing examples of people who claim to be Christians or Muslims doing bad things. (Also I am saying, even if Muslims committed the Sept 11 acts, it does not make Islam false.) I am giving examples. I am not making a comparison.
My reply: I understand that you are saying that bad things committed by Christians and Muslims does not make Islam and Christianity false or true. However, your parallel between Crusade and September 11 is faulty. You are generalizing two different scenario with one conclusion. It’s like saying a criminal holding a bloody knife after a murder and a doctor holding a bloody knife ( or scissor or whatever ) after an operation does not make the criminal and the doctor good or bad. It DOES make the criminal bad and the doctor good!
Therefore, in my opinion, crusade and Inquisition does make Christianity bad and false because it was carried out in the name of Christianity and approved by official bodies of Christianity ( Pope, Kings and majority of nations ). If it not bad and false, why Pope admitted and apologized for it?
You ‘seem’ objective and fair, but the fact is you want to escape being held responsible for crimes done in the name of Christianity and for me, CRIMES against humanity, CONTRADICTION of Christian teachings ( promotion of sexual promiscuity and chastity at the same time, fair message of love and violence consecutively, oneness of god and trinity along the way ) and UNFULFILLED BIBLE PROPHECY are proof that Christianity is false.
If your map ( in your case, your Bible ) repeatedly failed to show you the direction of decent living as a God conscious human being ( which differentiate us from animal or at least, from animalistic lustful human who crave only for sex, carnal, gluttony and bloodshed pleasure) as proven in the course of history, your map is false and untrue and therefore did not entitle to represent the message of The Supreme Holy God.
To Syukri
Again you do not address the issue. I have already said:”Your reply does not even address the issue. The issue is -”….Jews and Christians are not happy to live as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS (in MUSLIM COUNTRIES)…”truth and light from the Son,Nov 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 am. – and also the next related question “How do Muslims/Muslim states make non-Muslims happily and willingly accept Islamic rule/Islamic laws?”. THERE IS NO ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS.
You say:”What is your definition of ’second class’ citizen under Muslim rule? Is that because non-Muslims have to pay tax ( jizyah ) which some consider as discrimination? Well, the answer is simple, Muslims have to pay zakat ( tithe ) which is not compulsory to non-Muslims. By paying jizyah, non Muslims enjoy every citizen right as Muslim, PLUS THEY DON’T HAVE TO GO TO WAR. That’s the fair deal.”- Syukri, Dec 7th, 2009 at 5:00 am
My reply: That is a fair deal according to you (which is what you must say). But the point is: why must Muslims have an Islamic state and have a different set of rules for a different set of people. As you give in your example: Non-Muslims “DON’T HAVE TO GO TO WAR” shows that non- Muslims are treated differently. THE POINT IS: NON- MUSLIMS DO NOT WANT TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY and that is one point you cannot demolish because non-Muslims will always be treated differently in a Muslim State. THERE IS NO ANSWER TO THIS FACT that you will not admit it. (The names given to the payment by non- Muslims and Muslims e.g. jizyah and zakat- indicates a {unacceptable} difference ). A secular democratic country is more likely to be equally acceptable to everyone of every religion (e.g Singapore and other secular democratic countries). That is why the Islamic state is illogical ( indicating that your version of Islam is untrue.) This is a very simple to understand fact. I will address the other points that you mentioned but I wish to say that everything else you say is just a smoke screen; a distraction you put up to try to draw everyone’s attention from this real problematic issue within Islam which is the Islamic state.
To give you one example of “real problematic issue within Islam”: I said “I have been reading(in the newspapers) about a Muslim preacher in Malaysia who was in trouble with the law because he did not have a permit to preach and also because it was believed he was WAHABI in his beliefs. ” . You(Syukri) replied (correctly, I will agree) that he did not have a permit. But the point I wish to make is: Would the government there allow the propagation of WAHABI, SHIA, AMMADIYAH ..etc along with SUNNI ideas. (I remember Hamzah writing that there are no SHIA mosque in Malaysia. Why is that so?) So it appears that in Malaysia only Sunni Islam is allowed. Am I mistaken? I would like to see you explain the situation there and also explain why you support the situation if you agree with it.
To Syukri
You say:”Syukri,Dec 7th, 2009 at 2:04 pm- … I understand that you are saying that bad things committed by Christians and Muslims does not make Islam and Christianity false or true. However, your parallel between Crusade and September 11 is faulty. …” .
My reply: I am glad that you get the point “bad things committed by Christians and Muslims does not make Islam and Christianity false or true.” So I hope that you do not try to show that Christians have committed more atrocities than Muslims because even if Christians have committed more atrocities than Muslims, it ” does not make Islam and Christianity false or true”. And to prove that Christianity is true is my focus.
Also I stated”NO PROPAGANDA PLEASE”. But it is PROPAGANDA that you have reproduced again.
You say”Let me tell you. Non Muslims are happy living under Muslim rule. Jewish golden age was under Muslim rule! Shocking, huh? Since Christian propaganda will accuse that is Muslim propaganda. That’s is the FACT as you requested, not propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain -Syukri
Dec 7th, 2009 at 5:00 am.
My reply: The FACT is , how the Jews were treated depended on the character of the Islamic ruler. There were two good Islamic rulers. But when they died, persecution of the Jews began – “The first major persecution was the 1066 Granada massacre, which occurred on December 30, when a Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, crucified Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city. “More than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day.”[9] THIS WAS THE FIRST PERSECUTION OF JEWS ON THE PENINSULA UNDER ISLAMIC RULE.” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain – . The massacre of the Jews by Muslims is from the same WIKI article you referred to. It is not my hobby to search the internet for MUSLIM ATROCITIES as is your hobby to search for CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES. Also FYI – “Under the reign of the Almohades, MANY JEWS WERE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE ISLAMIC FAITH; the conquerors confiscated their property and took their wives and children, many of whom were sold as slaves. The most famous Jewish educational institutions were closed, and synagogues everywhere destroyed.
During the reign of these Berber dynasties, many Jewish and even Muslim scholars left the Muslim-controlled portion of Iberia for the city of Toledo, which had been reconquered in 1085 by Christian forces.” -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain – (From WIKI article referred to by Syukri.) So Syukri please do not play this propaganda game with me. It suggest that you have no better ideas to show Christianity as false and Islam as true. (Your propaganda does not show Christianity as false and Islam as true.)
To Syukri’
You say:”BUT, you refused my demand of answer for issues of ATROCITIES under Christian rule like Crusade, Inquisition etc( which is more serious than ISSUE OF SECOND CLASS CITIZENSHIP UNDER ISLAMIC RULE ). You DID NOT ANSWER my question at all ( just like many other issues like who are authors of Bible etc ). -Syukri,Dec 7th, 2009 at 4:13 am
I wish to ask: Do you agree that there is an” issue of second class citizenship under Islamic rule ” for the non-Muslim? I shall address ” issues of ATROCITIES under Christian rule like Crusade, Inquisition etc” later , if the Lord allows. I have written enough for today.
To Syukri
You say (on the issue of non-Muslims being treated differently in an Islamic state):”Or because non Muslim have to wear different cloth that make them second class citizen? If that so, what about Jews living under christian rule who need to show their ‘David star’ and subject to inhumane living condition in ghettos?……featuring second world war….. Are Christians treated Jews as first class citizen when they are massacred en mass and driven out of their countries in French, Spain and Germany? -Syukri, Dec 7th, 2009 at 5:00 am.
My reply: You say”Or because non Muslim have to wear different cloth that make them second class citizen?” – Syukri. I(truth) did not know that there was a period in Muslim history where non- Muslims were made to where “different cloth “. It must have happened or you would not have mentioned it. Am I correct to say so? Perhaps you can inform everyone of this. If that is so, it only goes to show even more, ways in which non-Muslims are treated differently in an Islamic state. This is discrimination. I am sure you have some propaganda to tell everyone to white-wash all these to explain all these discrimanatory acts as not discrimination.
Next, you say:”..Jews living under christian rule who need to show their ‘David star’ and subject to inhumane living condition in ghettos?” – Syukri. (This is with reference to World War 2).
My reply:- Here is another fine example of propaganda from your twisted dawa-gandist mind.
No doubt the forces of evil working through Hitler did a lot of damage in WW2. But you are trying to equate Nazi Germany with Christianity with the statement “..Jews living under christian rule who need to show their ‘David star’ ..”- Syukri.
You do not mention Germans who opposed Hitler’s plans (like Oscar Schindler who rescued many Jews and whose work was made into the excellent movie Shindler’s List or the German soldier Valkyrie who tried to kill Hitler ; also another movie). We may say that Nazi Germany was at least culturally Christian but we have to say the same thing of the Germans who opposed Hitler. Also you close your eyes to the fact that the USA, Great Britain, France were, at least, culturally Christian countries during WW2 who fought Hitler (and thereby freed the Jews). This is another clear example of your one-sided, bias, twisted thinking; thinking that distorts facts to spread Islamic propaganda.
I wish to end by saying that I cannot stop you, Syukri, from posting your twisted Islamic propaganda here (or elswhere on the Internet) but there will always be persons (Christians or others) who will be able to expose your distortion of history and facts (which is Islamic Propaganda).
Salam Bro Syukri,
Thank you so much for your kind words to me. It is not my intention to leave this forum but I just recently had an important issue that needs my attention. Focus was my key point then and my decision to take my leave from here was inline with it.
I am still working on the issue and will not be participating as aggressively as before. But I’ll still be around though.
You are doing good yourself too and that has somewhat impressed me. Carry on doing it bro and InsyaAllah may the truth prevail.
Heya ‘truth’ buddy old pal my Dawa-gandist (I’ve just learned this word from you) friend!
I’m back! Looks like you are doing good too there huh. I was just wondering if you missed me
(I know how much you hated smileys but ah…I just can’t help it though 
oops I did it again. Fingers are just too automatic with it) Anyways, I am impressed with you too as I can see clearly now that you sure have made the title of an expert defender in your faith realized in you dude. Ok, that aside, just a quickie now. I just have to say something here since I saw an interesting trend in your replies you have made.
I have just one word to describe of them…DIVERSIONS. Just when I thought you have remained focused, this skill just has to pop up again.
I am letting you know first that I am not interested in them and that is why I didn’t bother to “jump” in. Well at least until I saw this:
“And to prove that Christianity is true is my focus.” – ‘truth’ Dec 8th, 2009 at 4:14 am
That’s Very Good. But I don’t seem to see you going into that direction with your petty arguments regarding Ahmad Deedat and second class citizen issue yada yada and what have you. But now since you have expressed your goal above and wanting to return to the main road, please stop creating diversions so as to stray away from the real issue and begin by explaining why you are playing games with words regarding the worshiping of Jesus.
Remember buddy, after all it is you who have said this:
“…let me state that I DO NOT KNOW -from memory- OF ANY SUCH DIRECT COMMAND TO WORSHIP JESUS…” – ‘truth’, Oct 21st, 2009 at 2:35 am (caps are mine though
)
Your replies to me regarding the divinity of Jesus being reflected in the verses I have quoted proves even more that you are, what you have called as, playing games with words buddy. Or should I put it as how you have always loved using the word, NONSENSE. If there is no direct command to worship Jesus from God, then there is no direct command to worship Jesus. To worship Jesus, you have twisted the words in the Bible just so to justify this man made commandment of yours. That is really your playing games with words buddy.
Let me give you an example of how twisting of words can go. Supposedly you have left a note for me whom you have never met before, to take care of your house and your wife (if you are a male) during your super long absence. It’s a very straight forward standing order, it is final and I have to follow it strictly and it can go something like this:
“Please take care of the house. Ensure that it remains clean. And take care especially of my wife’s needs too but please do not have sex with her. If you follow all these orders, you will be rewarded handsomely when we meet.”
And tiny pieces of that message are being pasted all over the house just so to remind me of the standing orders.
But when I came to your house, I was greeted by your son and he passed on to me this message before he left for Pluto:
“My father has left you with the message that says to take care of the house and especially of his wife’s needs too. You will be rewarded handsomely when you meet him later.”
Question now: Which one should I take? The direct word from you? Or your son’s words? I’ll tell you this: If the wife is insanely hot and you are going to be away for a super long period of time, chances are I will definitely take your son’s relaying of the message of “…take care…especially of his wife’s needs too.” as you giving me the green light to have sex with her. And boy will I have a rolling good time. Nothing else matters and I will tell myself that it is only right for me to do so since the message was revealed progressively. Right? Tell me frankly now, if this were to happen, will you be pissed with me in this case since your direct standing order for me was not to have sex with the wife?
See the picture now?
I know this will never happen but it is just a hypothetical example on how I would view the concept of Christians trying to justify their deifying of Jesus when the message is clear and scattered repeatedly all over the Bible that he is not God and there is even NO DIRECT COMMAND TO WORSHIP JESUS.
If you really want to prove that Christianity is true like what you’ve said, you then have to convince me or rather us first that God has indeed commanded us to worship Jesus. All these irrelevant current arguments will just be a waste of time if it can not be proven so.
So, now please carry on staying focused in convincing us while I get back to my work. Thanks for the attention now buddy.
to Eric,
One simple question to you Eric. What if Jesus did directly says “worship Me” will you worship Him? Is the answer that you gives is true in your heart or you just say yes because after all it is not mention so that you still thought that you can escape from the fact? Thanks.
Hi pro-truth
pro-truth? what kind of a name is that? Pro- and then theres Truth…Truth…Aaah wait a minute, I see now, truth has got a little fan club of his own with at least one follower now eh. Not bad eh ‘truth’? See I told you you have conquered the Expert Defender title hands down.
Anyways,
“One simple question to you Eric. What if Jesus did directly says “worship Me” will you worship Him? ” – pro-truth Dec 9th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Show me where in the Bible first that he did. Then I will proceed in answering.
Now I am going to ask you this:
Jesus never did say “worship me” and the trinity was never mentioned in the Bible. But the Quran did says to worship Allah (Allah the God and not Jesus ok) and say no to the trinity. Will you stop worshiping Jesus then and start to worship Allah alone? Answer this to yourself coz I dont want you to clutter this discussion with ‘truth’.
“Is the answer that you gives is true in your heart or you just say yes because after all it is not mention so that you still thought that you can escape from the fact?” – pro-truth Dec 9th, 2009 at 10:06 am
What fact? Do you mean the fact that the Bible was written by man and has been recorded FACTUALLY that it has at least been corrupted once by man?
pro-truth, scroll up this thread all the way up now. Go on. All the way up. Now tell me what is the title of this topic? What? Did I hear you say Why I am following Jesus? Ok good. If your discussion is to remain true to the topic, tell me truthfully now, are you doing what the title is asking you to do? That is to follow Jesus? If you are, let me ask you this simple question:
Jesus prayed to his God. Why aren’t you following Jesus in praying to the God that Jesus prayed to?
Thanks for your thoughts though. And try not to clutter this topic if possible. Have a good day there.
Eric,
Assalamualaikum,
Alhamdulillah, welcome back bro. I’m very glad because you have defied TALFTS assumption who claimed that you have gentlemanly retreated. I’m also busy with my work but I try my best to my little to explain about Islam, and even if there is nobody is reading it ( at least TALFTS read it ), I do it for the sake of Allah and for myself. Personally I’ve gained a lot through my reading and comparison and all of this surely improve my understanding of Islam and Christianity.
I strongly believe that at the end, the truth of Islam will prevail ( as happened before when Christians cannot answer and closed the blog spot ). I’m sure this time they will try to ‘bertahan’ as long as they can, but who can fight Allah if He has made a promise to support His believers by Himself?
3:179 Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which ye are now, until He SEPARATES what is evil from what is good nor will He disclose to you the secrets of the Unseen. But He chooses of His Messenger. (For the purpose) whom He pleases. So believe in Allah. And His apostles: And if ye believe and do right, ye have a reward without measure.
From the pattern of TALFS writing of jumping, diverting and rotating, I can sense his desperation and fear ( like sieged animal if I can say ). Since English is my third language, I can’t afford to have a gibberish session which TALFTS is fond of ( he did with Eric many times before ) due to my limited vocabularies and time. This fear from disbelievers is another info told by Allah.
3:151 Into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth We shall cast DREAD in return for their ascribing divinity, side by side with God, to other beings – [something] for which He has never bestowed any warrant from on high; and their goal is the fire – and how evil that abode of evildoers!
Don’t you feel it, TALFS? You don’t have to answer it because surely you will deny it. But you know the facts. Disbelievers may try to appear strong and united outwardly like how they try to show here, but internally they are shattered. We know it!
59:14 adversity among themselves is very great. Ye think of them as a whole whereas their hearts are DIVERS. That is because they are a folk who have no sense.
Don’t you see that The Supreme God is with Muslims? Who granted all biblical land to Muslim? Allah! Jerusalem, the birth place of Jesus is essentially Arab and Islam, and the Jews still can’t move their capital of Tel Aviv to Jerusalem although they’ve controlled all Palestine. Egypt, the land of Moses, Joseph, Aaron and many more biblical figure was granted to Muslims. Mesopotamia, the ancient land of Abraham, modern day Iraq, Jordan and Syria where John The Baptist come from is Muslim’s. Constantinople, the birth place of first Christian Emperor and Eastern Orthodox, is Muslim’s. All these are Allah’s promise to Prophet Muhammad before his demise and have happened!
110:1 When Allah’s SUCCOR comes, and victory,
110:2 and thou seest people enter God’s religion in hosts,
Do you think that The Supreme God will give Muslims all this lands until now if Islam is not true? You may say that Islam used force to conquer those lands, but now Islam is at the lowest point in history economically, politically and militarily in the world. They can revert to Christianity now if they want, no Muslim power will stop them. But they don’t, although Christians work day and night to convert Muslim in impoverished countries. They just can’t because The Supreme God HIMSELF is defending this religion. Surely Christians can’t win fighting with The Almighty God, Allah!
61:8 They aim to extinguish God’s light with their utterances: but God ( himself ) HAS WILLED to spread His light in all its fullness, however hateful this may be to all who deny the truth.
These are words in action! More people converted to Islam after September 11 which supposedly staged to defer people from it. It happened reverse!
Deuteronomy 32:21They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols ( trinity ? ). So I will MAKE THEM JEALOUS with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,
This jealousy is the answer of brutality against Islam and Muslim ( whose Arab, previously were nomadic Bedouin, an unknown and foolish nation ) in the form of Crusade, Inquisition, ethnic cleansing and war against terrorism. But, as usual you can’t win fighting with Allah and the time will tell.
9:33 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to PROCLAIM it over all religion, even though the unbeliever may detest (it).
Thank you Eric. I wish I can know you better and talk over a tea or something someday, InsyaAllah.
To TALFTS, I will reply to you later.
Syukri
To Eric
Welcome back. It is interesting that you should accuse me of DIVERSION. If you do not wish to reply to topics such as ‘Muhammad is mentioned in Bible – as mentioned by Deedat’ and ‘Non -Muslims as Second Class citizen in Islamic state’, that is your choice. I have turned my attention to these topics (which I think you will say are “petty arguments” -Eric,Dec 9th, 2009 at 5:11 am) because they were mentioned by Muslims earlier in these blog-site.(To say that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible is to say that the Bible predicts Muhammad as a true prophet; therefore Islam is true. This is not a petty argument). I feel these issues can more easily show the faulty thinking of Muslims (e.g the false idea that Christian beliefs arose from faulty translations. – refer to Si Kitul, Sep 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm, and 5.20pm.). If it can be shown that Muslims have faulty thinking on these issues, then perhaps the basis on which Muslims believe Islam to be true is also faulty. That is a conclusion that some Muslims may come to.(like ex – Muslim Hamzah and others.)
With regards to my statement “.. to prove that Christianity is true, is my focus.” – (‘truth’ Dec 8th, 2009 at 4:14 am), I have placed reasons here as to why I believe the claims of Christianity. But after all that, I know that whether a person becomes a Christian or not, is something between the person and God. I can only be a witness (no matter how much I say). It is God who does the converting.
Also, I cannot help but feel that you want me to focus on your (favourite) topic of “Worship Jesus – not mentioned in Bible” rather than these “petty arguments” like ‘Muhammad is mentioned in Bible – as mentioned by Deedat’ and ‘Non -Muslims as Second Class citizen in Islamic state’ because you know that on these issues Muslims are more likely to be shown to be talking nonsense (e.g Syukri and his CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES propaganda. And my reply with MUSLIM ATROCITIES – refer to ‘ truth and light from the Son, Dec 8th, 2009 at 4:14 am’)
Assalamualaikum Bro Syukri,
“Thank you Eric. I wish I can know you better and talk over a tea or something someday, InsyaAllah.” – Syukri
It really is nice knowing you too bro and InsyaAllah someday when the time is right, perhaps we can do that ya
Heya ‘truth’,
“To Eric Welcome back.” – ‘truth’ Dec 9th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Thank you so much for the welcome buddy. Really appreciate it lots. It just makes me feel at home here now. And its nice to resume communication with you again too.
“It is interesting that you should accuse me of DIVERSION.” – ‘truth’
You know what buddy? I did not accuse you. I am telling you of the trend. Thats all to it.
Stay focus. Remember? Don’t throw it off track too much my friend. Because In throwing things out off track too much, you have actually got smacked back by your own words buddy.
Let me show you how that happened:
“To give you an example of low-level thinking : e.g Christianity is not true because of the bad things that happen during the Crusades. Or Islam is not true because of September 11, 2001. Clear thinking persons will see that bad examples of persons who claim to be Christian does not make the religion false,. (likewise for Muslims.).” – ‘truth’ Nov 14th, 2009 at 2:23 am
You know what, for a minute there I really thought you were for real and was actually proud of you till I even had thoughts of joining your little fan club that has just sprung up. And probably change my nick to Pro-Truth the Second. Then you just have to spoil all my plans by saying this:
“I feel these issues can more easily show the faulty thinking of Muslims…If it can be shown that Muslims have faulty thinking on these issues, then perhaps the basis on which Muslims believe Islam to be true is also faulty.” – ‘truth’ Dec 9th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Are you trying to tell me that you have just downgraded yourself into a low-level thinking Expert Defender? I know that you are probably not here to please me ( I’ve borrowed this from Bible is Corrupted
) but I am utterly disappointed. All those plans of making you as my new hero…just gone to waste.
“Also, I cannot help but feel that you want me to focus on your (favourite) topic of “Worship Jesus – not mentioned in Bible” rather than these “petty arguments” like ‘Muhammad is mentioned in Bible…” – ‘truth’ Dec 9th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Spot on buddy! And also being inline with the same level as Clear thinking people, I am bringing this straight to the heart of the matter. That is the Doctrine of Trinity, one of the main core believes of Christianity.
If you can’t assure us with certainty (your favourite word here) that it is God who wants us to worship Jesus, then all these arguments about faulty thinking will show the falseness of the religion will just be a waste of time for us to discuss. The failure of answering my “favorite” topic with certainty will also just prove that the Doctrine of Trinity is a man made commandment thus making it at the same time as proof that Christianity is false.
So, are you going to explain and convince to us why you worship Jesus in the first place when God Himself didn’t tell you to do so or are you afraid that by discussing this topic it will more likely make you talk nonsense? Care to convince us on this now buddy?
Thanks again for your attention dude. Peace to you now.
“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” – Matthew 15:9
TALFTS,
Before I respond to you regarding ‘ second class citizen under Islamic rule’, I would like to continue a bit talking about JEALOUSY, the root cause of this conflict. ( surely we don’t want to finish this argument immediately by being compelled to give prompt replies, right? Personally, engaging in this debate gives me a mental sharpness because I have to read, understand, review and answer. I believe my Bible knowledge and Christian history has steadily increased compared to your Quran knowledge and Muslim history. Even if you ( or me ) are not as intellectually challenging, it will not cease the excitement like what people feel when they ‘compete’ strength with fish during fishing. ( whatever.. ) This constant mental excitement ( of thinking about points in this debate, plus your entertaining answers ) that accompany me all the time is like an orgasm which did not cease! Of course I want to have this constant ‘mental orgasm’ to last as longer as possible.Therefore, please don’t rush and think that Muslims don’t have the answers. ( Daniel told me that he will address ‘Muhammad mentioned in Bible’ as soon because he is busy with work. Cheers! ).
OK. Let’s ponder again these verses from your Bible and see the connection with our Quran and the reality.
Deuteronomy 32:21They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will MAKE THEM JEALOUS with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
It’s like this. Jews and Christians did not obey God. They asked for answer and sign all the time, not to understand, but to argue further. See the pattern is repeating. Example, Christian propaganda said that non Muslims live as second class citizen under Muslim rule ignoring the fact that they are obscenely treat Muslims as no class citizen at all by forcing them to convert, driving Muslims out and killing them. How can the worst accuse the bad? Rightfully we need to clarify this issues first. Then TALFTS said that I don’t address the issues.I explained that Muslims treat non Muslims justly by respecting their differences of religion ( by giving them different suitable treatment ), then Christian accused Muslims treating Non Muslims DIFFERENTLY in negative way! Can you see the pattern? Christian don’t address the issues in the entirety, but picking the word and shape it according to his propagandist agenda.
No matter how much answers and signs, TALFTS won’t accept, because TALFTS believes what he WANT to believe, not what he NEED to believe. This wanting is shaped in the form of prejudice, nurtured by propaganda, mental setting and programming. Christians like TALFTS will argue any slightest perceived minor mistakes in given answer so that they can’t prolong the debate and escape from the major ideas like futility of Trinity, corruption of Bible, disputed authority of Paul, atrocities of Christians etc. ( like citing the word ‘different’ alone instead of looking at the just treatment of Muslims to Non Muslims ).
This kind of people whom Allah addresses in The Holy Quran:
6:109 They swear their strongest oaths by Allah, that if a (special) sign came to them, by it they would believe. Say: “Certainly (all) signs are in the power of Allah. but what will make you (Muslims) realise that (even) if (special) signs came, they will not believe.”?
TALFTS has asked for answer. Is that because he wanted to believe? No. He asks so that he can ask and argue further. He won’t believe. How precise the word of Allah regarding this matter.
6:111 Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things ( as sign ) before their very eyes, they ARE NOT THE ONES TO BELIEVE, unless it is in Allah’s plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).
This sentiment ( of sickness of being asked for signs without any intention to believe from the one who ask) is shared by Jesus.
Mark 8:12 When he heard this, he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, “WHY do these people keep demanding a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, I will not give this generation any such sign.”
In a stronger language, he lashed them out by saying:
Matthew 16:4 A WICKED and ADULTEROUS generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away.
Until now, TALFTS himself has never given a concrete answer regarding the authorship of Bible, who are the authors, who is the witness of Paul and what is his authority to write the half of Bible (presumably the word of God and who endorsed the completion of Bible after 400 years of compilation ) by diverting and escaping all the time ( like fugitive if I can say ).
Why is all of this diversion? Again, Quran is the answer.
53:23 These ( trinity etc )are nothing but names which ye have DEVISED,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but CONJECTURE and what their own souls DESIRE- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
53:28 But they have NO KNOWLEDGE therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth.
Therefore, the combination of : (1).Ignorance ( no knowledge ) (2).Conjecture ( guess ) (3). Desire has entitled them the curse from God.
Clearly, God did not please with this wickedness, then and now, therefore God has cursed and punished them.
Al Quran 5:13 But because of their BREACH of their covenant, We CURSED them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.
Apparently, one of their punishment from God is the feeling of jealousy with those who are not a people or foolish nation.
Deuteronomy 32:21They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will MAKE THEM JEALOUS with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
This jelousy is confirmed by The Holy Quran:
2:109 Out of their JEALOUSY, many among the followers of earlier revelation would like to bring you back to denying the truth after you have attained to faith – [even] after the truth has become clear unto them. None the less, forgive and forbear, until God shall make manifest His will: behold, God has the power to will anything.
They are jealous because the final message from God that they have been anticipating it to be sent down to them has been revealed to an unlettered man. Muhammad. An Arab. They just can’t take it. For them, a prophet from cultured Greek or civilized Rome is more acceptable than an unlettered man from a foolish nation wandering in the desert; Arab.
43:31 And they say, too, “Why was not this Qur’an bestowed from on high on some great man of the two cities?”
And latter Muslim Arab victory over Christians in The Middle East and invasion of of all biblical land only add salt to their injury. In every possible opportunities ( Inquisition, Crusade, Ethnic Cleansing and war on terror ), they will vent their envy and jealousy to Muslims.
Jealousy is the reason of all propaganda, evangelism and accusation against Islam that what is Christians are doing now in this blog. Not because Islam is untrue.
Syukri
Again you do not address the issue. I have already said:”Your reply does not even address the issue. The issue is -”….Jews and Christians are not happy to live as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS (in MUSLIM COUNTRIES)…”truth and light from the Son,Nov 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 am. – and also the next related question “How do Muslims/Muslim states make non-Muslims happily and willingly accept Islamic rule/Islamic laws?”. THERE IS NO ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS.
My reply. I have addressed the issues on Dec 7th, 2009 at 5:00 am twice and I don’t know what answer do you want. Of course I can’t give your answer exactly how you want me to answer it because I use FACT in my answer, not PROPAGANDA which not necessarily factual like you do. But your failure to understand my answer is no strange and understandable since it coming from among those who reject faith.
2:171 The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.
1)If you say that Jews and Christians are not happy under Muslim rule, that’s not true because of what they achieved and enjoyed under Muslim rule. Wiki said: ( The Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain, also known as the Golden Age of Arab (or Moorish) Rule in Iberia, refers to a period of history during the Muslim rule of the Iberian Peninsula (the former Roman and Visigothic Hispania) in which Jews were generally accepted in society and Jewish RELIGIOUS, CULTURAL, and ECONOMIC life blossomed.) That’s the FACT, not propaganda. How can Jews achieved so much in various field if they are persecuted and repressed like Christians did to them?
you said: My reply: The FACT is , how the Jews were treated depended on the character of the Islamic ruler. There were two good Islamic rulers. But when they died, persecution of the Jews began – “The first major persecution was the 1066 Granada massacre, which occurred on December 30, when A MUSLIM MOB stormed the royal palace in Granada, crucified Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city.
My reply: That is my point. Jews were massacred by A MUSLIM MOB, not Muslim ruler. A MOB did not represent the official body of Islamic state. A mob can be joined by everyone; Muslims, Christians and Jews because there was no proper and official organization. This show the importance of Muslim ruler where it’s absence can lead to chaos. What you refuse to paste from wikipedia is: The major Jewish presence in Iberia continued until the Jews were forcibly expelled EN MASSE pursuant to the edict of expulsion by Christian Spain in 1492 and a similar decree by Christian Portugal in 1497.
You failed to see the whole perspective of Muslim rule treatment to non Muslim in comparison of Christian rule treatment to Muslim. Wiki said:María Rosa Menocal, a specialist in Iberian literature at Yale University, has argued that “Tolerance was an inherent aspect of Andalusian society”. Menocal’s 2003 book, The Ornament of the World, argues that the Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, while allowed fewer rights than Muslims, WERE STILL BETTER OFF THAN IN OTHER PARTS OF CHRISTIAN EUROPE. Jews from other parts of Europe made their way to al-Andalus, where they were tolerated – as were Christians of sects regarded as heretical by various European Christian states.
Wiki continued: After 681, the Christian Visigoths of Hispania persecuted the Jews severely; therefore, the Jews welcomed the Muslim Arab and mainly Berber conquerors in the 8th century. The conquered cities of Córdoba, Málaga, Granada, Seville, and Toledo were briefly placed under the control of the Jewish inhabitants, who had been armed by the Moorish invaders. The victors removed the Christian Visigoths’ oppressive restrictions and granted the Jews full religious liberty, requiring them only to pay the tribute of one golden dinar per capita (Jizya).
Good admitted that there were good Islamic rulers because there was no single Christian rulers who was good to Muslims! One good and one bad Islamic rulers are BETTER than one bad and one worst Christian ruler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Repression_of_Jews
To TALFTS,
SECOND CLASS CITIZENS (in MUSLIM COUNTRIES) is not Islamic term. It’s Christian propaganda which I don’t have to elaborate. Allah clearly stated in Quran to be just to non Muslim:
60:8 As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God DOES NOT FORBID YOU TO SHOW THEM KINDNESS and to behave towards them with full EQUITY: [9] for, verily, God loves those who act equitably.
You said:My reply: That is a fair deal according to you (which is what you must say). But the point is: why must Muslims have an Islamic state and have a different set of rules for a different set of people. As you give in your example: Non-Muslims “DON’T HAVE TO GO TO WAR” shows that non- Muslims are treated differently. THE POINT IS: NON- MUSLIMS DO NOT WANT TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY and that is one point you cannot demolish because non-Muslims will always be treated differently in a Muslim State. THERE IS NO ANSWER TO THIS FACT that you will not admit it.
My reply: If you are married man with a daughter, I believe you love both your wife and daughter. Just because you love them, does that mean that you have to treat them indifferently? Of course you have to treat them differently! You can have sex with your wife and can’t with your daughter! Does this different treatment make you unjust or bad ( or terrorist, propagandist etc )? Of course not because you are treating them accordingly.
Now, Muslims believe in different set of belief with Christians and Jews. Living with Muslims are Jews and Christians too. Do you want Muslims to respect other different believers by allowing them to practice their belief which is different from Muslim? Yes. Then the different treatment to the different belief is actually an accommodation, not oppression!
I ask you TALFTS, do you want Muslim to ask non Muslim to pay zakat, pray in mosque, wearing hijab so that you will say Muslim are treating non Muslim justly, not differently? ( since you don’t want to be treated differently right? )
Muslims pays zakat as a religious duty,( 2:110 And be steadfast in prayer and pay the zakat) if they ask non Musim to pay zakat too, this is like forcing Christian to pray in mosque instead of church. It this what you want? So, Muslim pays zakat, non Muslim pay tax. Same obligation. PAYING. What the problem?
But I realize one thing, as a christian, you have never experience interfaith living in Christian countries ( secular countries is not Christians ya, don’t be confused ). If you are living in truly Christian countries, other faith are crushed. Why? Because Christians want to treat people indifferently. In other word, they want all people to be Christians like them so that they can treat people indifferently. ( unlike Muslims who treat Jews and Christians differently and distinctively ).
Well, to be honest, going to war for non Muslim is optional under Muslim rule. In seerah, or prophet biography, there were occasions when Jews and pagan participating a battle with Muslims.Not forcing non Muslims to go to war is a privilege for them ( one Singaporean cited that having to go to NS is one reason why Singaporeans leaves Singapore http://singaporedissident.blogspot.com/2009/11/singapore-national-service-and-you.html ), not oppression. But if you want, apa salahnya. The problem is, if we force you to go war with Muslim, you will say that Muslims force non Muslim to do against their will since going to war also a religious duty to Muslims. Adoi..
to be continued
To Eric,
With reference to your Bible quotation:“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” – Matthew 15:9 (in Eric, Dec 10th, 2009 at 2:18 am).
I wish to point out that here Jesus is quoting the Old Testament book of Isaiah.
Matthew 15:7-9
7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
The listeners of Jesus’ teaching here (the Jews at that time) will know that”me” here refers to the God of Isaiah. They will not take it to mean that it refers to Jesus.
To TALFTS,
You said:A secular democratic country is more likely to be equally acceptable to everyone of every religion (e.g Singapore and other secular democratic countries). That is why the Islamic state is illogical ( indicating that your version of Islam is untrue.)
My reply: It’s sickening that instead of offering a better version Christian state in comparison of Islamic state, you resorted to ‘secular democratic version’ of state, as if it was contributed positively by Christianity. As I said, secularism was not Christian invention and has nothing to do with any religion, but actually was the result of people rejection of Church interference to state affair during enlightenment period.
Pope Pius X condemned the separation of Church and state in France in his encyclical Vehementer Nos, writing: “That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely FALSE, a most pernicious ERROR. … Hence the Roman Pontiffs have never ceased, as circumstances required, to refute and condemn the doctrine of the separation of Church and State.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
How can you depend on non-religious doctrine to discredit Islamic state? Why did not tell me about Christian kingdoms and rulers who waged Crusade and Inquisition as your factual examples? Are you so desperate to equate Christianity and secularism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism
You said:To give you one example of “real problematic issue within Islam”: I said “I have been reading(in the newspapers) about a Muslim preacher in Malaysia who was in trouble with the law because he did not have a permit to preach and also because it was believed he was WAHABI in his beliefs. ” . You(Syukri) replied (correctly, I will agree) that he did not have a permit. But the point I wish to make is: Would the government there allow the propagation of WAHABI, SHIA, AMMADIYAH ..etc along with SUNNI ideas.
My reply: We do have shia, wahabi, sunni etc. Our differences mainly on jurisprudence ( fiqh ) which is merely academic. The difference do lead to clashes, but not WAR, certainly better than Christians who have Catholic and Protestant which the relationship is bloody and political.
Wiki said about Thirty Years’ War in Europe:Initially the war was fought largely as a RELIGIOUS CONFLICT between PROTESTANT and CATHOLICS in the Holy Roman Empire, although disputes over the internal politics and balance of power within the Empire played a significant part. Gradually the war developed into a more general conflict involving most of the European powers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War
The principal issues at stake in the ‘Troubles’ were the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the relationship between the mainly-PROTESTANT Unionist and mainly-CATHOLIC Nationalist communities in Northern Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
The French Wars of Religion (1562–98) is the name given to a period of civil infighting and military operations, primarily fought between French CATHOLICS and PROTESTANTS (Huguenots). The conflict involved the factional disputes between the aristocratic houses of France, such as the House of Bourbon and House of Guise (Lorraine), and both sides received assistance from foreign sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion
The conflict in Ireland essentially pitted the native Irish CATHOLIC against the British PROTESTANTS colonists and their supporters in Britain. It was both a religious and ethnic conflict – fought over who would govern Ireland,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Confederate_Wars
So you better look at your own crooked roof before pinpointing to your neighbor home.
You say:”Syukri,Dec 7th, 2009 at 2:04 pm- … I understand that you are saying that bad things committed by Christians and Muslims does not make Islam and Christianity false or true. However, your parallel between Crusade and September 11 is faulty. …” . My reply: I am glad that you get the point “bad things committed by Christians and Muslims does not make Islam and Christianity false or true.”
My repy: I understand does not mean I agree with you. You glad for nothing. Pathetic.
You said: No doubt the forces of evil working through Hitler did a lot of damage in WW2. But you are trying to equate Nazi Germany with Christianity with the statement “..Jews living under christian rule who need to show their ‘David star’ ..”- Syukri.
My reply: Nice try to escape. Read what Hitler said about his Christianity.
http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
The Vatican has apologized to Jews on behalf of the entire Roman Catholic community, for failing to speak out against the Nazi holocaust during World War Two.In his letter accompanying the apology, the Pope said the holocaust remained an indelible stain on the 20th century. This show that Christians have silently approved Holocaust when it happened then.The Vatican’s long-anticipated APOLOGY to the killing of six million Jews was published in Rome show that Christians admit their mistake.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/65889.stm
Why apologized for something that you did not do?
I wish to end by saying that I cannot stop you, TALFTS, from posting your twisted Christian propaganda here (or elswhere on the Internet) but there will always be persons (Muslijms or others) who will be able to expose your distortion of history and facts (which is Christians cheap Propaganda).
Syukri
To Eric
truth and light from the Son 
ec 8th, 2009 at 2:38 am): “I have been reading(in the newspapers) about a Muslim preacher in Malaysia who was in trouble with the law because he did not have a permit to preach and also because it was believed he was WAHABI in his beliefs. ” . You(Syukri) replied (correctly, I will agree) that he did not have a permit. But the point I wish to make is: Would the government there allow the propagation of WAHABI, SHIA, AMMADIYAH ..etc along with SUNNI ideas. (I remember Hamzah writing that there are no SHIA mosque in Malaysia. Why is that so?) So it appears that in Malaysia only Sunni Islam is allowed. Am I mistaken? I would like to see you explain the situation there and also explain why you support the situation if you agree with it.”
I wrote to Syukri
Would you, Eric, like to comment? Syukri has not answered or commented on the question:-”Would the government(in Malaysia) there allow the propagation of WAHABI, SHIA, AMMADIYAH ..etc along with SUNNI ideas. …………. So it appears that in Malaysia only Sunni Islam is allowed.
This question clearly shows the ILLOGICAL situation an Islamic State creates.(Only one version of Islam, Syukri’s sect I suppose). The ILLOGICAL situation is itself an indication that any version of Islam that tries to build an Islamic state is NOT TRUE. Syukri has written a lot since I asked this question BUT he has not answered this question. I believe he does not know how to answer this question. That is why Syukri has tried to change the subject by later writing distractions such as:
1 -’Christians are jeolous of Muslims because Muslims control large areas of land mentioned in Bible and therefore important to Christian history(truth’s understanding).’- (please see -Syukri, Dec 10th, 2009 at 1:10 pm)
2 – Christian atrocities are worst than Muslims atrocities. (I do not think I need to give a reference to where Syukri says this because he keeps on repeating this like a broken record e.g. Crusades, Inquisition, IRA.,Ku Klax Klan…etc.) The fact that Syukri keeps repeating CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES is an indication that he has a lack of ideas to try to show that Islam is true. Syukri seems to be sayng that ISLAM IS TRUE BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY IS SO BAD.
To Syukri
FYI – “Even if CHRISTIANITY IS SO BAD, it does not make Islam true”. That is why I am so relaxed about this whole issue. All the supposed or real CHRISTIAN ATROCITiES you may want to post here does not make Christianity false and Islam true. (I could dig up MUSLIM ATROCITIES but I do not want to waste my time as it does not prove Christianity true – e.g you know that I think Sept. 11 does not make Islam false.) Your repeating of CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES only shows yourself to be a PROPAGANDIST lacking in ideas.
To Eric
FYI – I accidentally hit the wrong keys and SMILING FACES appeared. It was unintentional.
To Syukri
You say: (Syukri -Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:58 pm)
“(truth )said:A secular democratic country is more likely to be equally acceptable to everyone of every religion (e.g Singapore and other secular democratic countries). That is why the Islamic state is illogical ( indicating that your version of Islam is untrue.)
My (Syukri) reply: It’s sickening that instead of offering a better version Christian state in comparison of Islamic state, you resorted to ’secular democratic version’ of state, as if it was contributed positively by Christianity. As I said, secularism was not Christian invention and has nothing to do with any religion, but actually was the result of people rejection of Church interference to state affair during enlightenment period.” – Syukri
My reply: Please show me where I said that Christianity invented ’secular democratic version’ of state. Are you trying to twist my words to mean that I say Christianity invented “’secular democratic version’ of state” as you twist the words of Jesus to say that Jesus instructed his disciples to preach to the tribes of Israel only and not to everyone in the world (Syukri,
Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:28 pm).
I am only saying that: “A secular democratic country is more likely to be equally acceptable to everyone of every religion (e.g Singapore and other secular democratic countries).That is why the Islamic state is illogical ( indicating that your version of Islam is untrue.)”. I am not saying that Christianity invented it.
I can tell you that I feel comfortable as a Christian in secular Singapore. I believe other Christians feel the same. (There is a historical reason here). Jesus never set up a Christian kingdom. Jesus is God and is therefore King but His “kingdom is not of this world…” (John 18:36 )
Christianity did eventually become the “official religion” of the Roman Empire (during or after the time of Constantine) but that was about 300 years later. So , in my opinion ( and I do not claim to be an expert) at the back of our minds, Christians are comfortable with secular states because when Christianity began, there was no Christian empire (and there was no Christian empire for 300 years). And also Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world…” (John 18:36 )
The Roman empire had their gods. So by making Jesus Christ the official god of the Roman empire, Constantine was only doing what a Roman emperor may have done before. I am not certain that this is what a king who is Christian should do. (This may not be the correct thing to do). There is some questions about Constantine’s understanding of Christianity as I read he was only baptised shortly before he died. (My understanding of Christianity is that to be baptised is one of the first commands to be obeyed – usually after a period of study.) I am not trying to put Constantine down. I am only suggesting that to look to Constantine as a perfect example of a Christian ruler is a mistake.
From my reading of history (from a Christian view-point), when there appeared a Christian empire, some good came out of it but problems also appeared.( But that is another topic.)
You say:”It’s sickening that instead of offering a better version Christian state in comparison of Islamic state, you resorted to ’secular democratic version’ of state, as if it was contributed positively by Christianity.”
My reply: From what I have written you can guess that I do not support a religious state (Christian or otherwise). Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world. Jesus did not create a Christian state when He was on earth. Christianity did not become the official religion of the Roman empire for 300 years (roughly) after Jesus Christ. And when Christianity did become the official religion of the empire, I wonder if the emperor knew what he was doing.
So, Syukri, I cannot offer “a better version Christian state in comparison of Islamic state,” as you say, because I do not believe in a Religious State. I believe in separation of Church and State like in the USA (and Singapore).
Also you say “Pope Pius X condemned the separation of Church and state in France in his encyclical”. My reply: What has that got to do with me? I am not Catholic. I notice that you say a branch of Christianity did some bad things , therefore all Christians of all branches are bad.
(e.g. Crusades was carried out by the Roman Catholic Church. The abuses of the Crusades hurt the Orthodox Church. Do you realise that?)
You say:”How can you depend on non-religious doctrine to discredit Islamic state?”
My reply: Why not? I am only applying common sense. One does not need to always quote Bible to show that Islam or the Islamic State does not make sense. e.g. The idea of freedom to choose or change one’s religion is so clear to everyone (including atheist) – except certain Muslims – that
everyone points out the lack of logic in certain sections of Islam on this issue.( I say certain sections of Islam because I know that there are Muslims who say that a person who is a Muslim should be free to leave Islam.) There are many articles on this topic by secular or Christian writers on the Internet. I suggest you google or WIKI these three names to read articles written by secular and Christian writers 1) Abdul Rahman convert to Christianity. 2) Muhammad Hegazy 3) Also wiki – ‘Lina Joy case’
To Syukri’
You say : “Nice try to escape. Read what Hitler said about his Christianity.
http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm” – Syukri, Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:58 pm.
My reply: This shows your desperation. Did questions arise in your head such as 1) Hitler is a politician who will twist even the Bible for his own purposes. 2) He had a misconception of Christianity…. etc.
You are so desperate to give Christianity a bad name that you have made mistakes (such as your mistake about Quebec separatist.- truth and light from the Son,Nov 22nd, 2009 at 5:54 pm and your reply:
Syukri,Nov 23rd, 2009 at 4:26 am
You said:I think is fair to say. Also it is a case of Christians hurting Christians as you Syukri may want to see it as, if the Quebec separatist issue has anything to do with religion.
My(Syukri) reply:OK. Point noted on Quebec stuff. What about IRA, Serbian and Ku Klux Klan?” -Syukri.
I suggest to you that you have made another mistake. I shall leave it to others to elaborate if they so wish.
I will say something though. To say Hitler is a good example of a Christian is like saying Osama bin Ladin is a good example of a Muslim. Is it really necessary for me to say more?
To Syukri
I said:To give you one example of “real problematic issue within Islam”: “I have been reading(in the newspapers) about a Muslim preacher in Malaysia who was in trouble with the law because he did not have a permit to preach and also because it was believed he was WAHABI in his beliefs. ” . You(Syukri) replied (correctly, I will agree) that he did not have a permit. But the point I wish to make is: Would the government there allow the propagation of WAHABI, SHIA, AMMADIYAH ..etc along with SUNNI ideas.
You Syukri replied :” We do have shia, wahabi, sunni etc. Our differences mainly on jurisprudence ( fiqh ) which is merely academic. The difference do lead to clashes, but not WAR, certainly better than Christians who have Catholic and Protestant which the relationship is bloody and political….. (and more Islamic propaganda)”. – Syukri, Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:58 pm.
My reply: I notice that you did not mention the AMMADIYAH. Why is that so? Please GOOGLE :AMMADIYAH MALAYSIA. There are articles there on the treatment of the AMMADIYAH in Malaysia.
I reproduce one article:
Appease Mullah, Persecute law abiding Community: Malaysia takes another step closer to gross Human Rights violations
TORONTO, Dec. 22 /CNW/ – Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama`at Canada condemns recent
statement from the Malaysian State Government against the Community’s legal
activities in the State of Selangor….. The State Minister of Selangor – Malaysia, in charge of Islamic Affairs, Dr Hassan Mohamed Ali was recently quoted by local media stating that ‘action
would be taken against Jama`at (Ahmadiyya Muslim Community) leaders soon.’…According to this news story the state government is getting ready to pursue the community there starting with banning their mosque. This is what, Dr Hasan Ali, the State Islamic Affairs, Malay Customs, Infrastructure and Basic Amenities Committee chairman, has to say
“The action by the district office and the local council is the first phase. We hope that it will send out the message that WE ARE GOING AFTER THEM,”
“IF THEY REMAIN DEFIANT AND REFUSE TO ABANDON THEIR TEACHINGS, we will start looking at sterner action, including arresting the leaders behind it,”
http://daudahmed.wordpress.com/2008/12/24/malaysian-government-set-to-go-after-ahmadiyya-muslim-community/
My(truth) question was:”Would the government there allow the propagation of WAHABI, SHIA, AMMADIYAH ..etc along with SUNNI ideas.? ” It seems from my reading of the articles on the AMMADIYAH in Malaysia, the answer is NO for the AMMADIYAH. (This has implications for the idea of religious freedom.) This does not happen in Secular States like Singapore (and Canada).
Here is another example of the ridiculous situation that arises because of the existance of Islamic State (i.e. limited religious freedom). This illogical state of affairs is another indication that your version of Islam is not true. You cannot admit that I am right, of course. I hope you address this issue and not deviate ( or try to distract with more CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES).
Please see also:http://thepersecution-org.blogspot.com/2009/09/malaysia-non-muslim-muslims.html – “…However, things did not come to a head until 1975, when the Selangor Fatwa Council issued a fatwa declaring Ahmadiyah as non-Muslims. The fatwa called for them to repent, failing which they should be PUT TO DEATH by the ruler.”
So Syukri, will you say that an Islamic state treats all religions (and sects) equally and with fairness? Your Islamic propaganda cannot fool everyone.
To all Christians,
Please answer:-
Ever ponder why God created the universe?
Why God created Good and Evil, Man and Satan?
Isn’t God All Mighty to wipe off evil and destroy Satan?
Why God allow sins within man and open the path for forgiveness?
Why didn’t God guides everyone to His path rather than leaving man to go astray?
Who created hatred and enmities if God is only Love.
Where is God before and after Jesus existence?
Isn’t God omnipresent, so where can you find God Existence now?
Islam says, wahuwa ma’akum ainama kuntum. God is with you wherever you are.
God bless
To TALFTS,
Before I can fully reply you, I would like to clarify: Do you mean that Christianity promotes secularism, thefore rejects politic and governance? ( Unlike Islam which uphold Islamic state ).
Syukri
To TALFTS,
Since I don’t want to beat around the bushes in giving reply, like writing something which is not relevant to you, I would like to ask you the nature of your relationship with Catholic. I mean what define you and Catholic as Christians and of the same faith and what is not. ( or maybe you want to say that Catholic are not Christians ). That’s because you always compare Islam with sunni and shia relationship. Thank you. Then I will give you full reply.
Syukri
To Syukri
I said:”Would the government there allow the propagation of WAHABI, SHIA, AMMADIYAH ..etc along with SUNNI ideas.? ” It seems from my reading of the articles on the AMMADIYAH in Malaysia, the answer is NO for the AMMADIYAH. (This has implications for the idea of religious freedom.) This does not happen in Secular States like Singapore (and Canada).
Here is another example of the ridiculous situation that arises because of the existance of Islamic State (i.e. limited religious freedom). This illogical state of affairs is another indication that your version of Islam is not true. You cannot admit that I am right, of course. I hope you address this issue and not DEVIATE ( or try to distract with more CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES).
I seems to me that now you are trying to deviate and distract everyone from the real problematic issue of freedom of religion in an Islamic state which this issue of the AMMADIYAH in Malaysia clearly shows.
You do this now by asking ”
Before I can fully reply you, I would like to clarify: Do you mean that Christianity promotes secularism…………, -Syukri,Dec 14th, 2009 at 5:51 am.
and
“I would like to ask you the nature of your relationship with Catholic. I mean what define you and Catholic as Christians and of the same faith and what is not. ( or maybe you want to say that Catholic are not Christians ). That’s because you always compare Islam with sunni and shia relationship. Thank you. Then I will give you full reply.” -Syukri, Dec 14th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
You are trying to change the subject because YOU HAVE NO ANSWER.
I have said earlier: The issue is -”….Jews and Christians are not happy to live as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS (in MUSLIM COUNTRIES)…”truth and light from the Son,Nov 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 am. – and also the next related question “How do Muslims/Muslim states make non-Muslims happily and willingly accept Islamic rule/Islamic laws?”. THERE IS NO ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS.” ‘ The problems the AMMADIYAH in Malaysia is facing is similar to SECOND CLASS CITIZENS problems of Non -Muslims in MUSLIM COUNTRIES(with less or no religious rights).YOU HAVE NO ANSWER. This shows you are illogical and your version of Islam does not make sense and is therefore FALSE. That is why you deviate. Please reply to this issue of the AMMADIYAH in Malaysia (if you can) without deviating.
To Zaid
Welcome to this discussion.
I do not know where you are going with your post here. But there is something in what you wrote that I wish to point out.
You say:”Why God created Good and Evil,…” zaid, Dec 13th, 2009 at 8:41 pm,
FYI, my understanding of Christian teaching is that GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL.
God created man with the ability to have relationship and to love. But to have a relationship with God and to love involves CHOICES. For us to be HUMAN, we have to be able to choose.( Genesis 2:15-17 – Here MAN can choose to obey or not obey regarding the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. ) If GOD did not give us the ability to choose, then we are ROBOTS (not human) and we cannot have a relationship with GOD and cannot love God or others.
But NOT TO OBEY GOD is EVIL. So although God did not create evil, God allowed the possibility of evil to exist because God gave man the ABILITY TO CHOOSE. Man chose to DISOBEY GOD by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Evil than came into this world of man ( Genesis 3:6,7 ) and its effects we see every day.
There are other things in your post that I wish to write about later, if the Lord allows.
Thank you for your comments.
Dear TAFTLS,
Tnx for ur kind reply. Lets focus on existence of God and the purpose of God’s Creation. Indeed God has created mankind to seek, know and love God. Yes, I agree man is given a choice of good and bad. Both good and evil are well meant to put mankind to a test. Good and evil can be compared as Light and Darkness. While light proves existence of its source, darkness appears like another form of existence, which in real fact is nothingness due to absence of light. Hence evil is described as the absence of good, not another existence. Good is the ultimate truth and evil is none truth or null. This is Islam beliefs in “Hakikat”.
In Islam, God Allah mentioned umpteen times in the Quran the purpose of God’s creation. That God has created man and jinns none other but to seek and worship God. God has never and can never be separated from mankind from the beginning till the end, like the sun and its rays. This is just to describe how close God are to us and both are inseparable.
As prophet Muhammad SAW mentioned ” If not due to evil or satan who dwells in man’s heart, it shall appear to him the secrets of heaven”. We all believe the existence of heaven and hell and Christians believe Lord Jesus is in heaven now.If we imagine that God or Jesus is dwelling in heaven, we are limiting Godself where in actual fact, God is not limited within God’s own creation. If we imagine that God is somewhere out there away from us, then God is limited or can be contained by limited space, which again contradicts the fact that God is omnipresent.
All prophets including Jesus and Muhammad peace unto both delivers the same message, that we should not sever our ties with God in order to earn salvation, we should choose good over evil, obey God’s order and refrain from what God prohibits. Thereon, we shall gain enligtenment and our inner vision towards God will be uncovered. This will strengthen our “Tauhid” and uncover our “Makrifah”.
Just a point to ponder: Didn’t Jesus mentioned “Who ever has seen me has seen my Father”. How can we interpret this? Was Jesus truly saying he is God? Or he is equal to God?
When you see the light rays or reflection of the Sun in clear water, it is as though you have seen the actual Sun. But when you see through cloudy waters, you may not even see any reflection though the sun is solid bright. The state of the water can be referred to the conditions of our hearts. Yet to be reminded that the reflection of the Sun is not the Sun itself.
God has created man and all lives bearing God’s attributes (the 99 names of Allah), which appear to us now all walks of life, characters and behaviour. We can feel and see God everyday in our life, within ourselves and others through “Makrifah”. To achieve makrifah, we need to cleanse ourselves free from worldly desires and evil doings. Coz each of us has inner visions within our heart. We all are connected to God through awareness or ignorance. God desires us to uncover this truth (Habluminallah wa habulminannas- Relationship between Godself and mankind))to gain enlightenment and the path towards God will be widely open to us when we succeed in cleansing our hearts. This is the true salvation.
No mankind including all prophets and Jesus can be God, but the attributes of God are among all mankind, which solely means, we can’t see or hear God, but we are connected to God with close proximity. Our existence in this world is a manifestation of God’s attributes, whereby knowledge of God is uncovered when we seek the knowledge of our inner self.
PS: To all Muslim brothers, I am a Muslim and what I’ve mentioned above is the concept of Hakikat in Islam. To all Christians, how about your beliefs in God existence?
Wassalam
To TALFTS,
With regard to the treatment of Jews and Christians that TALFTS accused me not giving answer, I think that I’ve clarified clearly that they are generally and principally HAPPY when I cited examples of Jewish Golden Age under Islamic Spain rule, the perseverance of Eastern Orthodox Christianity under Ottoman rule in formerly Constantinople ( in fact their headquarter still in Turkey! ), the existence of Coptic Christianity in Egypt until now, the existence of Maronite Christian in Lubnan and Syria, ALL FOR ALL TO SEE THAT ISLAM PRINCIPALLY PROTECT THEM and did not wipe them out as did by Christians when they annexed Islamic Spain, waging Crusade,Inquisition and ethnic cleansing. If Christians are not happy, they can start an exodus out of Islamic Countries now, as done by European Jews to Isreal ( they have ‘ Law of Return’ that grant every Jew to return to their ‘homeland’ ). But it did not happen. They are many Christian community still residing in Islamic Countries. What aspect I did not answer? The problem is; TALFTS want answer that suit his argument, of course I can’t give that because I use FACTS, not propaganda. And he will keep repeating that I did not answer. This tactic is obsolete already, dude.
With regard to Ahamdiyyah, it’s an illegal group in Malaysia and threat to religious stability in Malaysian context as JI is illegal and Falun Goong is severly restricted in Singaporean context ( JI is not illegal in Indonesia and Falun Goong is legal in Malaysia). Why don’t you say that Singapore is unfair and restrict people’s freedom? We have different situation that need different approach.Therefore, it NEVER indicate that Muslim countries have a principle problem with non Muslim like problem that Christian have with their own different denomination ( Catholic and Protestant, usually bloody ).
So where is answer to my question and please don’t deviate by accusing me deviating. Otherwise, failing to address my question, the reader will notice your cowardice. ( I have this disgusting feeling of excitement going on and on.. sorry for that
)
* dear readers, please don’t be surprise that TALFTS will accuse me of not answering his question again as long as possible because he want to escape from answering mine.
Syukri
Dear readers ( if any ),
I would like to request your objective and non-partisan view, that if there is any aspect of my discussion with TALFTS which is not clear and left unanswered by me as claimed by TALFTS, please help me by pointing it out.
I’m transparent and have nothing to hide, InsyaAllah. Berani kerana benar, takut kerana salah.
Syukri
Peace,
A reason why Quran-Surah AL fateha mentioned:
Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger(Jews) nor of those who go astray (Christians). (7)
As we all know, the Jews had from time to time deny the Truth brought by the prophets, some prophets even were murdered by the Jews who chose to remain in their idolatory, hence earning God’s anger. As for Christians, Quran mentioned that they are misguided due to the fact that they mistook Jesus testimony as proclaiming himself as God.
While Jesus said “I am the way” and “no one can reach my Father but through me” are not an indication that Jesus was proclaiming himself as God. The “way” or “path” is not the “destination” itself. It is through the teachings of Jesus and all the prophets that guide mankind to the true path towards God.
Christian may claim that Jesus mentioned I am the Light (one of the 99 names of Allah), Ruhullah (spirit of Allah), Kalimatullah (Words of Allah). Well, God is not made of light, spirit or words. The 99 names of God are God’s attributes that manifest among all mankind, not only Jesus.
God is Godself “Laisa Kamithlihi Syai-un”, nothing is comparable to God.
Mankind is created to glorify God and God decrees that each of us seek to uncover the inseparable relationship of mankind to God to attain true salvation. Only when we succeed to unveil the “hidden gem” in our inner self, that we shall attain a smooth journey towards God and gain salvation.
The principle towards Makrifah as Jesus and Muhammad PBUH taught is bearing witness of “Oneness in Multiplicity” and “Multiplicity in Oneness.” The path or way towards God is within our inner self.
wassalam
To Syukri
You say :”With regard to Ahamdiyyah, it’s an ILLEGAL GROUP in Malaysia and threat to religious stability in Malaysian context as JI is illegal and Falun Goong is severly restricted in Singaporean context….WE HAVE DIFFERENT SITUATION that need different approach.Therefore, it NEVER indicate that Muslim countries have a principle problem with non Muslim like problem that Christian have with their own different denomination ( Catholic and Protestant, usually bloody ).
My Reply: In Singapore, there is a religious group called the JEHOVAH WITNESS (JW) which is banned. They are banned (as far as I know) because they do not believe in carrying guns (and therefore defending the country or serving in the army). The JW are therefore a threat to Singapore’s physical security. In the same way, the Muslim group JI in Singapore is illegal ( as I understand) because some JI members were caught planning to BOMB train stations.
As far as I can tell, Singapore, being a SECULAR STATE, is not concerned about the different ideas about god or gods, or religions practices. That is why , I think, the Singapore government does not get involved in views such as -e.g. among Christian sects – whether certain Protestants regard Catholics as saved; or whether The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (also known as the MORMONS) have the right to call themselves Christians when they do not see Jesus as God ( who has lived forever in the past).
PLEASE NOTE: I have no idea or comment about Falun Goong in Singapore because I have not been following the issue. However I do not remember reading anything negative about the AMMADIYAH in Singapore, although there were some articles – if I remember correctly.
I believe the Singapore government is not “going after” the AMMADIYAH in Singapore because they are not a threat to national security. However the authorities in Malaysia are “going after”
the AMMADIYAH in Malaysia because they are a threat to MUSLIM UNITY in Malaysia. You use the phrase “threat to religious stability in Malaysian”. That is a PROPAGANDA PHRASE. It is more accurate to say “threat to MUSLIM UNITY in Malaysia”. The question of MUSLIM UNITY or CHRISTIAN UNITY in Singapore does not concern the Singapore government (as I see it) because Singapore is a SECULAR STATE. The FACT that Malaysia is a Muslim country means that Malaysia will be concerned about the threat to MUSLIM UNITY in Malaysia ( as posed by the beliefs and activites of the AMMADIYAH there). But this touches on the idea of the freedom to study or believe in whatever religion you believe to be true (as long as you do not pose a physical threat to the state like the JW and JI.). The AMMADIYAH does not pose a physical threat to Singapore, as I see it. (But the AMMADIYAH does pose a threat to MUSLIM UNITY in Malaysia.)
So it appears that in a SECULAR STATE like Singapore, we have more choices of versions of Islam to follow rather than in Muslim Malaysia. (What right have you, or anyone, to force someone to believe or not believe in a religion – as long as those religious beliefs do not physically hurt others.) This shows your version of Islam does not make sense and is therefore FALSE.
To TALFTS,
MUSLIM TREAT NON MUSLIM DIFFERENTLY?
You have been accusing Muslim to treat non Muslims as second class citizen ( which I refuted by saying that the term second class citizen did not exist in Islam, FYI, non-Muslims living in Muslim countries called ‘Ahlu Zimmah’ or the people of protection, care, custody http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi who are entitled for protection of their life, religion and property.
Some of the accusation of discrimination of Muslim ruler to non-Muslim arising from the tax imposed on non-Muslim namely ‘Jizyah’. I’ve refuted that accusation by saying that the payment is not exclusive to non-Muslim, because Muslim also have to pay in the form of ‘Zakat’. This different term has been capitalized by TALFTS by accusing that Muslim treat non-Muslim DIFFERENTLY, and implying that Muslims are not fair, there Islam is illogical and untrue.
I responded by saying that Muslims treat non-Muslim differently and distinctively due to their different need just like a husband treat his wife and daughter differently. I cited example of Christian rule who ‘wanted’ to treat all people indifferently by converting them all to Christianity and killed who resisted.
For this argument, TALFTS has no comment! Meaning that he realized his simplistic argument.
WOULD THE MUSLIM GOVERNMENT ALLOW THE PROPAGATION OF WAHABI, SHIA ALONG WITH SUNNI IDEAS..
This is again an attempt by TALFTS to discredit Islam and Islamic rule by saying that Muslims restrict freedom of religion ( or branches of religion ), therefore illogical and untrue.
I would like to say that Islam, unlike Christianity is not a sectarian in nature. All the adherents of Islam called as ‘ummah’ or brotherhood. This ummah is one, just like our Almighty God is one.
21:92 Verily, this brotherhood of yours is a SINGLE BROTHERHOOD, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore serve Me (and no other).
However, this unity of faith and oneness did not prevent diversity in culture, language, colour, culture etc. In fact, Islam see this as strength instead of weakness.
49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into ( different ) nations and tribes, that ye MAY KNOW EACH OTHER (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Therefore, we do have ‘madhab’ or Islamic school of Law which is essentially academic, logic and jurisprudential, ( unlike Christian ‘denomination’ which divisions between one group and another are defined by doctrine and church authority. Issues such as the nature of Jesus, the authority of apostolic succession, and papal primacy separate one denomination from another. It’s highly theological and therefore UNCERTAIN and lead to staggering 43,000 denominations! )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhab
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
Although Muslims are free to follow his school of Law, be it Syafie ( mostly Malay ) or Hanafi ( Muslim from Indian origin ), it will never divide us by having different mosque like Christians have! If I happen to be in Jalan Masjid India to buy books or clothes ( very cheap ) and I hear the calling ( azan ) from Masjid India, I’ll gladly go to pray there, and if I were lucky, I can hear sermon delivered in Tamil during Jumaat Prayer. If you don’t believe, you can come as tourist and see this by yourself because this is not propaganda.
I have shia friend pray with me side by side ( except that he use his stone ). When I visited IIU ( International Islamic University of Malaysia http://www.iiu.edu.my/index.shtml ) I see Muslims all over the world, black and white pray in ONE mosque. If you think that this is too propagandist, then look at million of Muslims who pray in Mecca. They pray in one direction ( qiblat ) , one ummah, one movement and in one place, namely Al Masjidil Haram. Read the account of American Malcom X, and chinese Zheng He about Mecca.
http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2009/12/13/lifearts/5218511&sec=lifearts
http://www.islamicity.com/culture/MOSQUES/Makkah/images.htm
If you come to Malaysia or any Muslim countries, you can see mosques along the way, but you can’t see affiliated mosque, they just MOSQUE! If you drive in mighty North South Highway and stop at any R&R, you can see Muslims before or after they rest, go to ‘surau’ to pray. The surau or small mosque ( like chapel ) is JUST surau, not hanafi surau, or wahabi surau etc. All Muslims can pray there.
Now, if you are an African or Russian arriving in Singapore (or US ) for short a visit, will you meekly go to ANY church there ( without verifying the status first )?
The problem is, due to your narrow understanding of Islam, you want Islam to be as ‘free, chaotic and diversed’ as Christianity. When you are asked whether you are Christian or not and the answer is ‘yes’, the next must have question is ‘ What church do you go?’ Isn’t it so my dear TALFTS? Christians cannot be simply Christian. You must define yourself by your church affiliation. So by this understanding, you want to see Islamic logic, freedom and truth by having wahabi mosque, shia mosque, Hanafi mosque, Malay mosque, Indian mosque, Kadazan mosque, Dayak mosque, Jawa mosque etc. That’s totally ridiculous.Muslims can afford to have that divisions not because we don’t want, we just don’t need that. Especially after looking at your disassociation with your fellow Christian denomination, apparently to escape being held responsible. Luckily, you have 34,000 denomination to chose and hide. ( like you can say: I’m not Protestant, Orthodox, Anglican, Mormon, or Chatholic, but bla ba bla ) then escape, or if the number is not enough, with some theological theories and little spark of charisma, you can start your own church. My suggestion is: The Spanking New Truth and Illuminating Light from the Son Church
Look at the denial, escapism and simplistication of your action in your OWN word: What has that got to do with me? I am not Catholic. I notice that you say a branch of Christianity did some bad things , therefore all Christians of all branches are bad.
(e.g. Crusades was carried out by the Roman Catholic Church. The abuses of the Crusades hurt the Orthodox Church. Do you realise that?)
To above question, YES. The government allow the propagation of all madhab. One sure thing, you won’t be arrested by claiming to be wahhabi or shia in Malaysia. I know many Malaysian politician who are either wahhabi or shia. The government only react if they cause threat to political stability, just like Singapore banned JW, a peaceful Christian sect ( but regarded dangerous for not wanting to carry weapon ????? ). How ironic.
TALFTS,
You said: The fact that Syukri keeps repeating CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES is an indication that he has a lack of ideas to try to show that Islam is true. Syukri seems to be sayng that ISLAM IS TRUE BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY IS SO BAD.
My reply. I have no lack of ideas as you can see. And all my ideas are supported by facts. I have explained Muslim relative good treatment to non Muslims throughout history. The existence of Christian community with their ancient church and hierarchy in Muslim countries is a living example of this peaceful interfaith coexistence.
Islam is true because it keep it words in Quran, reflected in history, not because Christianity is so bad.
The reason why I repeat Christian atrocities is because:
1) the atrocities of Christians is undeniably WORST than second class treatment of Muslim. How can you accuse Muslim of maltreatment, but at the same time close your eyes to Christian atrocities. Which one do you prefer? Having to pay tax under Muslim rule OR being killed under Christian rule?
2) You also keep repeating Muslim second class treatment to non Muslims to show that Islam is illogical, and therefore is not true ( which I easily refuted ).
Here is your repeating:
This question clearly shows the ILLOGICAL situation an Islamic State creates.(Only one version of Islam, Syukri’s sect I suppose). The ILLOGICAL situation is itself an indication that any version of Islam that tries to build an Islamic state is NOT TRUE.
truth and light from the Son Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Here is another example of the ridiculous situation that arises because of the existance of Islamic State (i.e. limited religious freedom). This illogical state of affairs is another indication that your version of Islam is not true. You cannot admit that I am right, of course.
truth and light from the Son Dec 13th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
This shows you are illogical and your version of Islam does not make sense and is therefore FALSE. That is why you deviate.
truth and light from the Son Dec 15th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
and many more..
The difference between us is : I’ve answered easily your allegation with regard to second class treatment under Muslim rule, but you NEVER ( until now ) answer my ‘allegation’ with regard to Christian atrocities like Crusade, Inquistion, Holocaust ( which is supported by Vatican ), Ethnic Cleansing, genocide etc. Are you afraid or have no answer? This intrigue only fan my enthusiasm anyway.
Therefore,This question of crime to humanity ( by killing infant, woman and old man ) and human right abuse ( by denying them right to live and practice their religion ) clearly shows the ILLOGICAL situation Christian rule and their Bible creates.The ILLOGICAL situation ( and ILLOGICAL comparison ) is itself an indication that any version of Christianity is NOT TRUE.
TALFTS said:So it appears that in a SECULAR STATE like Singapore, we have more choices of versions of Islam to follow rather than in Muslim Malaysia. (What right have you, or anyone, to force someone to believe or not believe in a religion – as long as those religious beliefs do not physically hurt others.) This shows your version of Islam does not make sense and is therefore FALSE.
How pathetic to compare Islamic state with secular state. When I asked you whether Christianity equate Secularism, you cowardly refused to answer, but repeatedly use secular state like Singapore to compare Islamic state.
As a Muslim, I don’t support homosexuality and communism, however, in secular free democratic Singapore, homosexuality, communism and casino are not allowed ( all are allowed in western countries ). What right do you have, or anyone in Singapore, to allow and not to allow people’s freedom to practice their sexual and doctrinal inclination as long as they do not physically hurt others ( ‘others’ may enjoy it tremendously
). This show illogical state of secularism and show that your version of secularism and Secularist Christianity does not make sense and therefore FALSE.
Please don’t deviate and focus on Islam Christian, not Islam Secularism, unless you say that Christianity equates Secularism. ( which until now you have not clarified even though I’ve answered you ). I have my view on secularism though, but I don’t want to deviate.
Syukri
To TALFTS,
As you will use ‘injustice’ treatment of Muslims to non Muslims ( first you use non Muslim, but after I’ve refuted, then, you use other branch of Islam like wahhabi and Shia, and after that, heretical Ahamdiyyah. ) to prove that Islam is illogical and therefore untrue, I ALSO will use ‘injustice’ and inhuman treatment of Christians to Muslims and their fellow Christians to show that Christianity is illogical and therefore untrue.
You said yourself: (e.g. Crusades was carried out by the Roman Catholic Church. The abuses of the Crusades hurt the Orthodox Church. Do you realise that?)
The maltreatment of Christians to their fellow Christians show that Christians don’t give choice of version of Christianity other than theirs. Again, using your own phrases” What right have you, or anyone, to force ( and loot, rape and kill ) someone to believe or not believe in a religion, Catholic or Orthodox or whatever 34,000 denominations – as long as those religious beliefs do not physically hurt others.)
So answer me as a Christian with regard to Christianity as you want me, a Muslim to answer about Islam and Islamic state ( and to be gentleman and accountable ).
The indiscriminate atrocities in Bible show that Christianity is ILLOGICAL and therefore UNTRUE.
We read about children bashing in the Old Testament without any mercy as well: “O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us- he who seizes your I-N-F-A-N-T and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalm 137:8-9)”
And also we read “Whoever is captured will be THRUST through; all who are caught will fall by the SWORD. Their I-N-F-A-N-T will be DASHED to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be LOOTED and their wives RAVISHED. (Isaiah 13:16)”
( Ask a Christian friend whether he or she should feel happy to dash a child against the rocks. Your friend will most likely stare at you in horror, much less believe this idea exists in their sacred Bible.)
You may say that above verses are metaphorical, but the precise resemblance of what exactly what Christians did in war show that they are not metaphor, and Christians only do what they read directly from their Bible.
Judge Theodor Meron stating:By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the 40,000 Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, ELDERLY and YOUNG, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity.
Although those killed were mostly men and TEENAGE boys, the massacre also included instances where BOYS under 15, men over the age of 65, and reportedly also B-A-B-I-E-S were killed. The Preliminary List of People Missing or Killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Bosnian Federal Commission of Missing Persons contains 8,372 names, of whom some 500 were under 18, and includes several dozen WOMEN and GIRLS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Srebrenica#cite_note-13
BABIES. OK? This is not propaganda.
To TALFTS,
Ahmadiyyah is a threat to religious stability in Malaysia just like hijab and azan using loudspeaker is a threat to religious stability in Singapore, therefore banned. Why don’t you say that Singapore has less freedom of religion than Malaysia in this sense? I don’t deny that opinion of majority Muslim has been considered in Malaysia with regard to Ahamdiyyah, just like opinion of majority non Muslims taken into account in Singapore with regard to azan. ( FYI, Azan using loudspeaker is permissible in Bangkok, a non Muslim capital. No problem there but problematic in Singapore.)
I expect, because non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia, they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there. It never happen dramatically. Ironically, Singaporeans are leaving Singapore for greener pasture that the government has to import people from China to be it’s citizens. Are they still not happy with their freedom? Hmm.. something to ponder.
To Syukri
With reference to your post: Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 10:55 am
To TALFTS,
MUSLIM TREAT NON MUSLIM DIFFERENTLY?
You have been accusing Muslim to treat non Muslims as second class citizen ( which I refuted by saying that the term second class citizen did not exist in Islam, FYI, non-Muslims living in Muslim countries called ‘Ahlu Zimmah’ or the people of protection, care, custody http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi who are entitled for protection of their life, religion and property.
My reply: Again you do not want to (or must not) admit to the perfectly reasonable point that NON-MUSLIM DO NOT WANT TO LIVE UNDER MUSLIM RULE/LAWS (if they can help it.; and even if the Muslim rulers are good. This is simple logic.) I have heard of nurses from the (Roman Catholic) Phillipines going to Saudi Arabia to work. But we also have in (Secular) Singapore construction workers from (Muslim) Bangladesh. Non-Muslim people may choose to work in Muslim countries in the Middle East but this is for economic reasons and for a limited period of time.
Your point that there were periods of time where Non-Muslims were “protected” (as you say) when they lived under Islamic rule MISSES THE POINT COMPLETELY. And the clear logical point is:”NON-MUSLIM DO NOT WANT TO LIVE UNDER MUSLIM RULE/LAWS (if they can help it.); and even if the Muslim rulers are good.” Why should I, a non-Muslim, live under Muslim laws? This is a point so clear to me and other non-Muslims but you cannot admit is sensible BECAUSE to admit that this point is sensible is to say that your(Syukri’s) position is ILLOGICAL and your version of Islam does not make sense. (FYI, there are articles on the internet about lack of protection of the religious rights of individuals in Malaysia – e.g. Indian Muslim girl marries a Hindu man. The girl is later sent to a re-education institution by the authorities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnncfYRPxk&feature=channel )
I do not wish to write about this point again because I know I am wasting my time. You cannot admit that my point is correct. (To do so is for you to admit your version of Islam is illogical). I shall now write about something else.
to Syukri
You say: Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
To TALFTS,
As you will use ‘injustice’ treatment of Muslims to non Muslims ( first you use non Muslim, but after I’ve refuted, then, you use other branch of Islam like wahhabi and Shia, and after that, HERETICAL AHAMDIYYAH. ) to prove that Islam is illogical and therefore untrue,…”
My reply: There are HERETICAL CHRISTIAN sects like the MORMONS. Christians only go against the MORMON BELIEFS with WORDS of persuasion only. The Muslim authorities in Malaysia are going against the “HERETICAL AHAMDIYYAH” (Syukri’s own words) with the force of the law.
That is illogical and going against their right to believe what they think is correct ( even if it goes against your -i.e. Syukri’s version of Islam). This is an illogical situation that has come about because of the existance of the Islamic State. The Islamic State is itself an illogical situation.
Also you say:”I ALSO will use ‘injustice’ and inhuman treatment of Christians to Muslims and their fellow Christians to show that Christianity is illogical and therefore untrue.
You said yourself: (e.g. Crusades was carried out by the Roman Catholic Church. The abuses of the Crusades hurt the Orthodox Church. Do you realise that?)
The maltreatment of Christians to their fellow Christians show that Christians don’t give choice of version of Christianity other than theirs.” -Syukri
My reply: “”I ALSO will use ‘injustice’ …’ you (Syukri) say. My question is: Do you agree that the treatment of the “HERETICAL AHAMDIYYAH” in Malaysia is an INJUSTICE. Whatever you may say about the CRUSADES, INQUISTION, fighting between Catholics and Protestant countries … etc..occurred about 1000 years ago (for Crusades) and HUNDREDS of years ago (e.g. INQUISTION, fighting between Catholics and Protestant countries.)
But the problems in Islam are so current (e.g. AHAMDIYYAH in Malaysia, Fighting between Muslim groups – Taliban vs Pakistan.). Islam related problems are so current and in the news often (e.g. Bali Bombings, London bombings, recent Bombing of a Hotel in India in which a Singaporean was killed; and lastly Sept 11.) that I feel you bring up these OLD TOPICS like CRUSADE and INQUISITION to make yourself feel better since Islam has been getting a lot of bad press .(Did you not say earlier that the Jews control the International Press and therefore put Muslim in a bad light?)
Your constant repeating of things like CRUSADE and INQUISITION is propaganda.
You did mention something more recent like BOSNIA. But there you go again with your CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES. Please find some new angle to attack Christian beliefs.
To Syukri
You say:”I expect, because non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia, they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there.
It never happen dramatically. Ironically, Singaporeans are leaving Singapore for greener pasture that the government has to import people from China to be it’s citizens. Are they still not happy with their freedom? Hmm.. something to ponder.” -Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
My reply: Syukri -”I expect, because non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia, they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there.” – Syukri
So you (Syukri) admit that “non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia, they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there.”
So do you admit that non-Muslims see themselves as second class citizen and are not happy to live in a Muslim state and “they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there.”
Your next point shows your faulty thinking. You say:”Ironically, Singaporeans are leaving Singapore for greener pasture that the government has to import people from China to be it’s citizens. Are they still not happy with their freedom?.” – Syukri.Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
My reply: Singapore’s population of Singaporeans babies BORN in Singapore every year is less than the number of Singaporeans dying. Singapore’s population would shrink if Singapore did not open its doors to immigrants to settle down here. This is a problem that affects more developed countries (i.e the problem of low birth rates). So Singapore’s ” shrinking population problem” has less to do with “Singaporeans are leaving Singapore for greener pasture” as you say, than with low birth rates. So your question “Are they still not happy with their freedom?.” – Syukri.Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm – is much less relevant to Singapore’s shrinking population problem. Are you trying to twist facts (as usual) or did you make a mistake?
To Syukri
You say: “The maltreatment of Christians to their fellow Christians show that Christians don’t give choice of version of Christianity other than theirs. Again, using your own phrases” What right have you, or anyone, to force ( and loot, rape and kill ) someone to believe or not believe in a religion, Catholic or Orthodox or whatever 34,000 denominations – as long as those religious beliefs do not physically hurt others.)
So answer me as a Christian with regard to Christianity as you want me, a Muslim to answer about Islam and Islamic state ( and to be gentleman and accountable ).” – Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm.
My reply: It is common knowledge that Christians today do not force people to believe in their own version of Christianity. (What happened centuries ago is another matter.) So your question above does not apply to Christians today.
I am writing about IDEAS in Christianity and Islam such as ‘Can Christians use FORCE/THREATS to prevent people from leaving Christianity’. (This idea oF FORCE/Threats is related to the ‘AMMADIYAH in Malaysia’ topic I wrote about earlier.)
But you, Syukri attempt to deviate (and distract people from this topic) with more supposed CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES (e.g. … Messacre at Srebrenica, Bosnia..- Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pm). Whatever happened in Srebrenica (and whether it was a question of religion or race or politics), it happened during a time of war ( though that does not make it right. But that is another topic).
But the question of ‘AMMADIYAH in Malaysia’ happened during a time of peace. THIS IS A FACT YOU WANT TO HIDE by distracting everyone with more CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES. You do this because YOU HAVE NO ANSWER. I write about “IDEAS in Christianity and Islam” but you respond with more CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES. You do this because you have NO GOOD REPLY to Christian ideas (or even secular ideas such as the SECULAR STATE). Your position is ILLOGICAL
and you cannot admit it.
To Syukri
You say:Syukri
Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
The indiscriminate atrocities in Bible show that Christianity is ILLOGICAL and therefore UNTRUE.
We read about children bashing in the Old Testament without any mercy as well: “O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us- he who seizes your I-N-F-A-N-T and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalm 137:8-9)”
And also we read “Whoever is captured will be THRUST through; all who are caught will fall by the SWORD. Their I-N-F-A-N-T will be DASHED to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be LOOTED and their wives RAVISHED. (Isaiah 13:15 -16)” -Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
I believe you MISREAD the verses (deliberately perhaps?).
For example: “Whoever is captured will be THRUST through; all who are caught will fall by the SWORD. Their I-N-F-A-N-T will be DASHED to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be LOOTED and their wives RAVISHED. -Isaiah 13:15 -16 (Syukri’s quotation)
My reply: It is GOD predicting what will happen in the future. (e.g Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble….) This indicates it is God speaking.
Also, the next verse (Isaiah 13:17-18 – ” See I will stir up against them the Medes…) indicates who will do these things.
God has given predictions of future events. Some events are pleasant, some are not ( like “I-N-F-A-N-T will be DASHED to pieces before their eyes” as you quote.). But whether the future events are pleasant or not, they are GOD’s WORD and is recorded in the Bible. Have you any problem with that?
To TALFTS,
You said:”NON-MUSLIM DO NOT WANT TO LIVE UNDER MUSLIM RULE/LAWS (if they can help it.); and even if the Muslim rulers are good.” Why should I, a non-Muslim, live under Muslim laws? This is a point so clear to me and other non-Muslims but you cannot admit is sensible BECAUSE to admit that this point is sensible is to say that your(Syukri’s) position is ILLOGICAL and your version of Islam does not make sense.
My reply: I don’t force you to live under Muslim law. Your refusal also has nothing to do whether Islam is true of false, logic or illogical. Who cares you sentiment anyway? The fact is many non Muslim are relatively happy living in Muslim countries. In Malaysia, non Muslim are given shares in the development of culture, economic and politic. We respect the right of dissent and the presence of strong opposition parties which mostly consist of non Muslims ( unlike one strong ruling party in Singapore ) . They even rule a state ( Penang ). We have many ministers who are non Muslims. I wonder whether Muslims in Singapore are given the same opportunity and trust. ( only one Muslim as minister?? )
http://www.pmo.gov.my/?menu=cabinet&page=1797
http://www.cabinet.gov.sg/CabinetAppointments/index.htm
This show that, apart from petty obselete propaganda of Christians, Muslims are treating their fellow non Muslims countrymen fairly. They are just jealous because they can’t accomplish what we we achieved in giving example of peaceful interfaith coexistence. ( in Madinah during Prophet Muhammad time, Islamic Spain, Ottoman rule, Lubnan, Malaysia )
2:109 Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish ENVY , after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.
to be continued
To TALFTS,
There are HERETICAL CHRISTIAN sects like the MORMONS. Christians only go against the MORMON BELIEFS with WORDS of persuasion only. The Muslim authorities in Malaysia are going against the “HERETICAL AHAMDIYYAH” (Syukri’s own words) with the force of the law.
My reply: with regard to Ahmadiyyah which is considered illegal in Malaysia, I’ve explained it clearly in my previous post: Ahmadiyyah is a threat to religious stability in Malaysia just like hijab and azan using loudspeaker is a threat to religious stability in Singapore, therefore banned. Why don’t you say that Singapore has less freedom of religion than Malaysia in this sense? I don’t deny that opinion of majority Muslim has been considered in Malaysia with regard to Ahamdiyyah, just like opinion of majority non Muslims taken into account in Singapore with regard to azan. ( FYI, Azan using loudspeaker is permissible in Bangkok, a non Muslim capital. No problem there but problematic in Singapore.)
Syukri Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
The use of force of law is justified with regard to Ahmadiyyah in Malaysia just like the use of force of law is justified with regard to Hijab and Azan in Singapore. For this justification, TALFTS has no comment. He just repeat this ‘injustice’ again and again without looking at the whole perspective. Why Singaporean gov did not go against Muslims practices with word of persuasion only as suggested by TALFTS? This only shows that TALFTS suggestion is illogical and impractical, therefore false.
Because of Secularism, Christianity is actually ‘sterilized’ from force of law to defend their religion. Christians cannot stop the teaching of evolution at schools ( totally against Christianity and Islam ), the ban of prayer at school, the abortion, contraception, homosexuality, devil worship, sex before marriage, cohabitation, atheism, materialism and consequently, individualism, hedonism, narcissism etc because of unlimited freedom granted under secularism ( which is totally against the tenet of religion ). So you still support secular state?
What do you gain from this propaganda TALFTS? Nothing. It only shows your simpleminded argument.
9:74 They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this REVENGE of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.
to be continued..
But the problems in Islam are so current (e.g. AHAMDIYYAH in Malaysia, Fighting between Muslim groups – Taliban vs Pakistan.). Islam related problems are so current and in the news often (e.g. Bali Bombings, London bombings, recent Bombing of a Hotel in India in which a Singaporean was killed; and lastly Sept 11.) that I feel you bring up these OLD TOPICS like CRUSADE and INQUISITION to make yourself feel better since Islam has been getting a lot of bad press .(Did you not say earlier that the Jews control the International Press and therefore put Muslim in a bad light?)
The answer is simple. All the group work by themselves. They are all illegitimate Muslim groups. No Muslim nation elect them to be their speakers and representatives. We never support them, then and now. Unlike Crusade and Inquisition, they were all carried out by legitimate Christian states and bodies ( like Vatican and Kings ) and supported by Christian nations at that time in the name of Christianity.
Jews control the press is FACT. http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-controlledpress-folder.html
You said:
My reply: Syukri -”I expect, because non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia, they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there.” – Syukri
So you (Syukri) admit that “non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia, they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there.”
So do you admit that non-Muslims see themselves as second class citizen and are not happy to live in a Muslim state and “they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there.”
My reply: Look how a deceptive Christian cut and paste my word to serve his propagandist agenda. My full word is :I expect, because non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia, they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there. IT NEVER HAPPEN DRAMATICALLY. Ironically, Singaporeans are leaving Singapore for greener pasture that the government has to import people from China to be it’s citizens. Are they still not happy with their freedom? Hmm.. something to ponder.
Syukri Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
I meant it to be sarcastic, but TALFTS conceal my complete phrase. Well, I’m not surprised because concealment is a Christian specialty and common trait ( like they conceal the fact that Jesus pray to his God thus proving that he himself is not a god ).
2:146 The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them CONCEAL the truth which they themselves know.
2:174 Those who CONCEAL Allah’s revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them: Grievous will be their penalty.
You said:
My reply: Singapore’s population of Singaporeans babies BORN in Singapore every year is less than the number of Singaporeans dying. Singapore’s population would shrink if Singapore did not open its doors to immigrants to settle down here. This is a problem that affects more developed countries (i.e the problem of low birth rates). So Singapore’s ” shrinking population problem” has less to do with “Singaporeans are leaving Singapore for greener pasture” as you say, than with low birth rates. So your question “Are they still not happy with their freedom?.” – Syukri.Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm – is much less relevant to Singapore’s shrinking population problem. Are you trying to twist facts (as usual) or did you make a mistake?
My reply: Singaporean are LEAVING Singapore despite their freedom is a FACT admitted by LKY. He said:The problem is, increasingly, more Singaporeans are staying on in countries like the United States.Mr Lee said every year, some 1,000 people at the top end are GIVING UP THEIR CITIZENSHIP. And he believes the numbers are GROWING.But Singapore is making up for the brain drain by getting bright Chinese and Indians into Singapore. They are attracted by better prospects here.But the trouble is, many of the Chinese then use Singapore as a stepping stone to go to America where “the grass is greener”. ( ha ha ha )
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/328684/1/.html
So, it’s not primarily because of low birth rate. Isn’t it?
6 reason why Singaporean are not happy with free and secular Singapore.You still can’t convince me secular state is better than Islamic state.:
http://www.singaporeaninlondon.com/2008/10/6-reasons-why-singaporeans-leave.html
To TALFTS,
You said: It is common knowledge that Christians today do not force people to believe in their own version of Christianity. (What happened centuries ago is another matter.) So your question above does not apply to Christians today.
My reply: Christians today do not force people to believe in their own version of Christianity not because they don’t want, but because they CAN’T as Christianity is sterilized by secularism already nowadays ( just they can’t stop the ban of evolution teaching at school, abortion, devil worship etc. ) What happened before DOES matter, just like Bible DOES matter to Christians even though it is the book of the past. In other word, history does matter. We can’t ignore history. I don’t think that Pope would apologize for Christians atrocities if it did not matter. You cannot commit crimes, then brought to court and simply released on the pretext ‘ What happened before did not matter’.
To TALFTS,
You said:I write about “IDEAS in Christianity and Islam” but you respond with more CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES. You do this because you have NO GOOD REPLY to Christian ideas (or even secular ideas such as the SECULAR STATE). Your position is ILLOGICAL
and you cannot admit it.
My reply: What ideas? You repeat about Muslim treatment to non Muslim ( as second class ) under Muslim rule to show Islam is illogical, therefore untrue. Equally, I present Christians treatment to Muslims ( as no class citizen at all because they were all killed for their faith ) under Christian rule to show that Christianity is more illogical and untrue. This CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES shows that Christianity did not have an idea of peaceful interfaith coexistence as portrayed by Islam. Therefore, you are more ILLOGICAL for failing to see this simple point.
To Syukri
You say: :”I expect, because non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia, they will migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there.IT NEVER HAPPENED DRAMATICALLY. – Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm.
My reply: Again more faulty thinking from you. If there are thousands of (non- Muslim) Malaysians who want to migrate to SECULAR SINGAPORE, the Singapore government will not accept them immediately. Singapore, (like many countries), want to attract only skilled people. So if “non Muslims are not happy with Muslim rule in Malaysia” They CANNOT DRAMATICALLY “migrate to free secular Singapore to be happy and free there” (or other countries for that matter) because the Singapore government will not accept them immediately. So just because non- Muslim Malaysians cannot DRAMATICALLY migrate to other countries DOES NOT mean that they are happy in Muslim Malaysia.
I read of a NORTH KOREAN who escaped to South Korea. He said that (before he escaped) he had to consider questions such as “Should I remain in North Korea to support my relatives and put up with the injustices?”
So in the same way, some non-Muslims may choose to remain in Malaysia because they want to support their family. The do not want to be separated from their family. So they put up with whatever injustices they may think there are. So they remain in Malaysia for reasons other than
“They are happy with Islamic Rule”.
The answer I have just given refutes your PROPAGANDA that ” The fact is many non Muslim are relatively happy living in Muslim countries.” – Syukri, Dec 19th, 2009 at 7:27 pm. This also applies to Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries centuries ago (as your example of Muslim Spain and others). I do not deny “…many non Muslim are relatively happy living in Muslim countries.” – Syukri, Dec 19th, 2009 at 7:27 pm. But all things being equal, they would prefer not to live in a Muslim country. That is simple common sense. (I would prefer not to, certainly)
Next you say:” In Malaysia, non Muslim are given shares in the development of culture, economic and politic. We respect the right of dissent and the presence of strong opposition parties which mostly consist of non Muslims ( unlike one strong ruling party in Singapore ) . They even rule a state ( Penang ). We have many ministers who are non Muslims.-Syukri,Dec 19th, 2009 at 7:27 pm.
My reply: This does not really say anything. The non-Muslims may take what is given to them. They may just be doing the best they can in, what they may see as, a bad situation. Individual non-Muslims may put up with the situation there because they do not want to migrate because of family ties or because they are not highly skilled. They may have little choice but to remain in Malaysia. They remain there NOT because “they are happy with Islamic Rule”.
Next you say:”I don’t force you to live under Muslim law. Your refusal also has nothing to do whether Islam is true of false, logic or illogical. WHO CARES YOU SENTIMENT ANYWAY? -Syukri
Dec 19th, 2009 at 7:27 pm.
My reply: You say you do not force me to live under Muslim law but that is because I am living in Secular Singapore. Non-Muslims (and Muslims) living in Malaysia are affected by Muslim Majority rule and they do not have a choice in it since they were born there. It affects their lives and their religious choices and practices. (I believe even some Muslims do not agree with your version of Islam because of all the difficulties.) Please see: –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnncfYRPxk&feature=channel
Also I have more of a quarrel with your(Syukri’s) version of Islam than with the version of Islam as believed by Muslims who support ARTICLE 11 (I find them as reasonable as most people). (If you had seen the last video, you will know what I am talking about.)
Next: You say-”I don’t force you to live under Muslim law. Your refusal also has nothing to do whether Islam is true of false, logic or illogical….” -Syukri, Dec 19th, 2009 at 7:27 pm.
My Reply : There are versions of Islam. Some versions are more logical than others. I state that you version is illogical and therefore not true. This does not prove that other versions of Islam is not true. (I do not expect you to agree with me here.).
Next: You say-”I don’t force you to live under Muslim law. Your refusal also has nothing to do whether Islam is true or false, logic or illogical.WHO CARES YOU SENTIMENT ANYWAY?” -Syukri, Dec 19th, 2009 at 7:27 pm.
My reply: I am less concerned about your thoughts about my sentiment regarding whether your version of Islam is “true or false, logic or illogical”.
What I am more concerned about is your (and other Muslim’s and Muslim authorities’) treatment of non-Muslims (and Muslims whose beliefs are considered heretical e.g. ‘AMMADIYAH in Malaysia’ ). I hope that everyone is treated equally and fairly before the law in Malaysia (regardless of race and religion).
To Syukri
You say :”…. with regard to Ahmadiyyah which is considered illegal in Malaysia, I’ve explained it clearly in my previous post: Ahmadiyyah is a threat to religious stability in Malaysia just like hijab and azan using loudspeaker is a threat to religious stability in Singapore, therefore banned. Why don’t you say that Singapore has less freedom of religion than Malaysia in this sense? I don’t deny that opinion of majority Muslim has been considered in Malaysia with regard to Ahamdiyyah, just like opinion of majority non Muslims taken into account in Singapore with regard to azan. ( FYI, Azan using loudspeaker is permissible in Bangkok, a non Muslim capital. No problem there but problematic in Singapore.)
Syukri Dec 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm. –
My reply:You say -”Ahmadiyyah is a threat to religious stability in Malaysia”. I say – Others may say that the response of the Malaysian religious authorities amounts to religious persscution. I need not say more as I have said enough earlier.
Next : You say -” …hijab and azan using loudspeaker is a threat to religious stability in Singapore, therefore banned. Why don’t you say that Singapore has less freedom of religion than Malaysia in this sense?”
FYI, I use to attend a meeting of Christians who, every time we met, met in a different members home. One of the reasons is because we Christians do not want to annoy our neighbours. Also there are zoning laws in Singapore that states that houses are not to used as churches. Most people will put up with the noise that come about because of the occasional group singing from Christian prayer meetings once a month, Chinese Taoist funerals or Malay weddings;(lets us not forget the ashes from burnt paper that occurs during the Chinese Hungry Ghost month).
So I believe the Secular Singapore government has set up laws/ guidelines regarding religious practices to maintain religious harmony between the different religions. You may say that “….azan using loudspeaker is a threat to religious stability in Singapore, therefore banned.” and you may ask “Why don’t you say that Singapore has less freedom of religion than Malaysia in this sense?” . But regarding the “azan using loudspeaker ” question, other religions are also restricted in certain ways. So the Singapore government is treating all religions equally and fairly. It is not a question of “freedom of religion” as you say (wrongly) but a question of consideration of the feelings of your ‘neighbour’ who may be of a different religion than yourself.
Next, since (as far as I know) the Ahmaddiyah is not banned in Singapore, will you (Syukri) say that in Singapore we have more religious freedom (even for different Muslim sects) than in
Muslim Malaysia?
Heya ‘truth’!
“I am not as good with the computer as you. You will notice that I do not use SMILING FACES as you do as I do not know how to make them appear.” – ‘truth’ Sep 16th, 2009 at 5:29 am
“To Eric
truth and light from the Son 
ec 8th, 2009 at 2:38 am):…” –‘truth’ Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
I wrote to Syukri
“To Eric
FYI – I accidentally hit the wrong keys and SMILING FACES appeared. It was unintentional.” – ‘truth’ Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Darn, now that you have accidentally discovered the secret on how to make smiley faces, its not gonna be fun anymore adding them into my reply to you. I shall not include them from now onwards. I’ll try. No promises though
oops. Oh well, moving on now…
“To Eric
I wrote to Syukri…Would the government there allow the propagation of WAHABI, SHIA, AMMADIYAH ..etc along with SUNNI ideas…Would you, Eric, like to comment?…” – ‘truth’ Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Hello? Anybody there? Helloooo? Dude oh dude… What have I told you earlier? Are you on some kind of medication or something? Where is it in my English that you do not understand? I have told you for a gazillion times that I am only interested in taking this discussion straight to the heart of the matter. You have even acknowledged it by terming it as my favorite topic. You know very well that I am only interested in finding a concrete answer to “my favorite topic”. And that is, asking you to give an answer of assurance with full certainty that it is God who has directly commanded us to worship Jesus.
You didn’t answer me on this buddy. Instead of giving me the answer that can give certainty, or at least an attempt, you have actually throw another ridiculous attempt at me in trying to distract my original question. Whats more ridiculous is that its just amazing that you didn’t see the irony of yourself saying this to Syukri:
“I believe he does not know how to answer this question. That is why Syukri has tried to change the subject by later writing distractions such as…” – ‘truth’ Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
The pot calling the kettle black huh?
I am actually giving you a chance here to prove to us that God has directly commanded us to worship Jesus buddy. If you can that is. It matters here. Because if you can’t prove to us, you are worshiping in vain my friend. You may think that you are worshiping God but in real fact, you are actually worshiping to another being that is not God. This is something which God has clearly warned us about buddy. Think about it.
Just FYI, you’ll be the 17th Christian (Protestants and Catholics alike for besides friends, I have also spoken to cell group leader, Pastor, Father and preachers) who just cant give me the certainty when asked regarding to this matter if you can’t answer it.
So, care to assure us with certainty it is actually God that has directly commanded us to worship Jesus? Or would you prefer to be the 17th person in my list?
Thanks now buddy for your attention and Peace out to you…
To TALFTS,
I truly enjoy this discussion, I can improve my knowledge of Islam and Christianity. I read Al Quran with clearer perspective nowadays. My English improved too. But, I think you are losing the ground of this discussion. You criticize Islam ( treatment of non Muslim, Islamic law, bombing, September 11 etc) without a single time giving the Christian alternative ( of governance, ethic, law etc ). Instead, you resort to secularism which is ungodly in nature. I don’t care about secularism since this blog is about GOD, not about UNGODLY. Secularism allow you to be anybody, anything, it does not care whether you are sincere or not, good or bad.
I’ll be very busy next week onward and won’t be able to write freely. I know now matter how much I write, I can’t stop you accepting the other way round ( so do you ) because this is what Allah has planned for dwellers on this world until the day of Judgment. When I and you die, there still be people who believe and disbelieve. Nothing personal. It’s just the way life is. That’s Allah plan.
5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, BUT (He did not because his plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
I like this discussion, not because I crave for attention, but because I care about my faith, my Allah who guide me my path along the way. I truly believe that He is the ultimate truth. I love Him above my self and my family. I believe that He will protect me.
I would like to propose one thing that ultimately prove the TRUTH between us. A TRIAL THROUGH PRAYER.This was Allah proposal to Prophet Muhammad after his debate with Christians, ( however, they declined the proposal, apparently because they know that they were wrong.)
3:61 And if anyone should argue with thee about this [truth] after all the knowledge that has come unto thee, say: “Come! Let us summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves; and then LET US PRAY TOGETHER HUMBLY AND ARDENTLY, and LET US INVOKE GOD’S CURSE UPON THOSE [OF US ] WHO ARE TELLING LIES.”
Asad, Quran commentator said: I.e., regarding the true nature of Jesus. According to all the reliable authorities, verses 59-63 of this surah were revealed in the year 10 H., on the occasion of a dispute between the Prophet and a deputation of the Christians of Najran who, like all other Christians, maintained that Jesus was “the son of God” and, therefore, God incarnate. Although they refused the “trial through prayer” (mubahalah) proposed to them by the Prophet, the latter accorded to them a treaty guaranteeing all their civic rights and the free exercise of their religion.(Quran Ref: 3:61 )
Now, do you dare to do trial through prayer online?
Syukri
To Syukri
You say:”Syukri Dec 19th, 2009 at 9:25 pm “… Singaporean are LEAVING Singapore despite their freedom is a FACT admitted by LKY. He said:The problem is, increasingly, more Singaporeans are staying on in countries like the United States……But Singapore is making up for the brain drain by getting bright Chinese and Indians into Singapore. They are attracted by better prospects here.But the trouble is, many of the Chinese then use Singapore as a stepping stone to go to America where “the grass is greener”. ( ha ha ha ) ttp://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/328684/1/.html So, it’s not primarily because of low birth rate. Isn’t it? 6 reason why Singaporean are not happy with free and secular Singapore.You still can’t convince me secular state is better than Islamic state.: http://www.singaporeaninlondon.com/2008/10/6-reasons-why-singaporeans-leave.html
My reply: Singaporeans are leaving one secular country for another (e.g. the USA). This shows that some persons may think that one secular state is better than another. In what way does this show that the Islamic state is superior? Would it not have been better if you had given good examples e.g. of thousands of non-Muslims presently trying to become citizens of Muslim countries?
Your example does not say anything. OR are you trying to cause a distraction? You say:”You still can’t convince me secular state is better than Islamic state.” My reply: I do not expect you to say I am right. I am just showing readers the weakness of your Islamic Propaganda.
To Syukri,
You say:”How pathetic to compare Islamic state with secular state. When I asked you whether Christianity equate Secularism, you cowardly refused to answer, but repeatedly use secular state like Singapore to compare Islamic state. -Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 2:29 pm.
AND
So answer me as a Christian with regard to Christianity as you want me, a Muslim to answer about Islam and Islamic state ( and to be gentleman and accountable ).” – Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm.
My(truth) reply: “How pathetic to compare Islamic state with secular state.” you (Syukri) say. Why is it pathetic? If it can be shown that a SECULAR STATE treats all religions equally and with fairness and Islamic States do not, then it shows that Islamic States are inferior in this respect (and that version of Islam is false).
Also I have already written earlier”From what I (truth) have written you can guess that I do not support a religious state (Christian or otherwise). Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world (John18:36). Jesus did not create a Christian state when He was on earth. Christianity did not become the official religion of the Roman empire for 300 years (roughly) after Jesus Christ. And when Christianity did become the official religion of the empire, I wonder if the emperor knew what he was doing. So, Syukri, I cannot offer “a better version Christian state in comparison of Islamic state,” as you say, because I do not believe in a Religious State. I believe in separation of Church and State like in the USA (and Singapore).” – truth and light from the Son.
I wrote to Zaid – truth and light from the Son Dec 15th, 2009 at 6:16 pm “……God created man with the ability to have relationship and to love. But to have a relationship with God and to love involves CHOICES. For us to be HUMAN, we have to be ABLE TO CHOOSE.( Genesis 2:15-17 – Here MAN can choose to obey or not obey regarding the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. ) If GOD did not give us the ability to choose, then we are ROBOTS (not human) and we cannot have a relationship with GOD and cannot love God or others. But NOT TO OBEY GOD is EVIL. So although God did not create evil, God allowed the possibility of evil to exist because God gave man the ABILITY TO CHOOSE……”
I mention this here because I feel that this point THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE (which is the ability
God gave man at his creation) is related to this topic of Islamic State, Christian State and Secular state on which you want me to comment.
In a SECULAR STATE everyone has the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE OR CHANGE HIS RELIGION. There are no obstacles to their choices in this (as long as the religion they believe is not a physical threat to the state like the Jehovah Witnesses, or the J. I.)
Can you say the same about the Islamic State?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6-5tYZiDZk
I support a Secular State like Singapore because it has principles like FREEDOM OF RELIGION which is more in line with the idea of FREEDOM TO CHOOSE (the idea that appears in the first book of the Bible.) So as I see it, a SECULAR STATE like Singapore is closer to Christian ideas (at least on this issue.) than an Islamic state.
I see the ABILITY TO CHOOSE one’s religion as an aspect of one’s HUMANITY. This is a freedom that must not be denied (because it comes from God). Version’s of Islam that deny a person the right to choose or change his religion (i.e. from Islam to something else, as I see it) is denying the person his basic human right. An Islamic State that does this is inferior to a Secular State (that does not do this) and that version of Islam is false.
To Syukri
You say: Syukri, Dec 17th, 2009 at 12:31 pm – “The (Malaysian) government only react if THEY CAUSE THREAT TO POLITICAL STABILITY, just like Singapore banned JW (Jehovah Witness), a peaceful Christian sect ( but regarded dangerous for not wanting to carry weapon ????? ). How ironic. – Syukri.
My reply – As far as I know the Jehovah Witness(JW) were banned in Singapore, not because “THEY CAUSE THREAT TO POLITICAL STABILITY” but because they do not want to use guns to defend Singapore. As I see it, if they do not want to use guns to defend Singapore, they do not deserve to exist in Singapore. The JW, a group you call ” a peaceful Christian sect ” is actually dangerous to Singapore’s physical security. I am not surprised that they are banned. They are banned not because of “religious” reasons (i.e. conflict with other Christian groups) but because of national physical security reasons.
I believe the AHMADIYAHH is banned in Malaysia because of conflict in beliefs with other Muslim groups (and so it is because of a “religious” reason). This is in contrast to the banning of JW in Singapore which I believe most will see as NOT being because of “religious” reason but of a national security reason. (AHMADIYAHH is not banned in Singapore, as far as I know.) Your explanation above about the JW is wrong.
To Syukri
You say:”You(truth) failed to see the whole perspective of Muslim rule treatment to non Muslim in comparison of Christian rule treatment to Muslim. Wiki said:María Rosa Menocal, a specialist in Iberian literature at Yale University, has argued that “Tolerance was an inherent aspect of Andalusian society”. Menocal’s 2003 book, The Ornament of the World, argues that the Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, WHILE ALLOWED FEWER RIGHTS THAN MUSLIMS, WERE STILL BETTER OFF THAN IN OTHER PARTS OF CHRISTIAN EUROPE Jews from other parts of Europe made their way to al-Andalus, where they were tolerated….” -Syukri Dec 10th, 2009 at 3:07 pm.
My reply: I wonder if you deliberately missed the whole point of what I am trying to say. Your quotation:”Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, WHILE ALLOWED FEWER RIGHTS THAN MUSLIMS,…..” says it all. NON-MUSLIMS HAVE FEWER RIGHTS THAN MUSLIMS IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY. If you do not see the point that is from your own quotation, than that only shows to everyone how brain-washed you are.
To TALFTS,
Your reply with regard to my writing about ATROCITIES in Bible : It is GOD predicting what will happen in the future. (e.g Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble….) This indicates it is God speaking.
Also, the next verse (Isaiah 13:17-18 – ” See I will stir up against them the Medes…) indicates who will do these things.
God has given predictions of future events. Some events are pleasant, some are not ( like “I-N-F-A-N-T will be DASHED to pieces before their eyes” as you quote.). But whether the future events are pleasant or not, they are GOD’s WORD and is recorded in the Bible. Have you any problem with that?
My reply: God ‘predicting’ did not make these atrocities suddenly become acceptable, especially god in the bible said that he will cause them to DO that when he said: I will STIR UP, I MAKE THE HEAVEN TREMBLES etc..the full text is as below:
Isaiah 13
11 And I WILL PUNISH the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will make the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will bring low the haughtiness of the violent.
12 I WILL MAKE a man more precious than fine gold, even man than the gold of Ophir.( meaning that god will destroy most of the man )
13 Therefore I WILL make the heavens to shake, and the earth shall be removed out of her place, at the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as with a chased roe, and as with a flock that no man gathereth together; every one shall turn to his own people, and every one flee into his own land.
15 All that are found shall be thrust through; and every one that is in league with them shall fall by the SWORD.
16 And their INFANTS shall be DASHED in pieces before their eyes, their houses shall be rifled, and their women ravished.
Here god recommends atrocities, and it’s understandable when Christians do that. Because the manual of atrocities is right in their own sacred book!
One will be surprised to read that the god of bible so interested in the word ‘DASH’ in Bible.
http://bibletab.com/d/dashed.htm
Yes. I have problem with your GOD’S WORD when he promotes ATROCITIES TO CHILDREN ( innocent ) and woman, and when Christians did just like what ‘predicted’ by god in Bible, and when the authors of your god’s word is still unknown until today.
To be continued..
To TALFTS,
Your reply with regard to my comment about Singaporean leaving Singapore: Singapore’s population of Singaporeans babies BORN in Singapore every year is less than the number of Singaporeans dying. Singapore’s population would shrink if Singapore did not open its doors to immigrants to settle down here.
This is a problem that affects more developed countries (i.e the problem of low birth rates). So Singapore’s ” shrinking population problem” has less to do with “Singaporeans are leaving Singapore for greener pasture” as you say, than with low birth rates.
My reply: Your statement is contradictory with the fact. Chok Tong said:And of those from the same batches who went on to universities overseas without a scholarship bond, more than ONE in THREE are today carving out careers OUTSIDE the country.Senior Minister Goh Chok Tong gave these statistics yesterday to illustrate the URGENCY of getting young Singaporeans to SINK ROOTS here even as they become more entrepreneurial and break out into the global economy.
‘If more and more of our bright students do NOT RETURN , this begs the question whether our success in giving them wings to fly far and high will result in our eventual DECLINE AS A NATION, especially as we are not even reproducing ourselves.
http://www.pmo.gov.sg/News/Transcripts/Senior Minister/SM Goh urges schools to help students retain their emotional bonds to Singapore.htm
Therefore,Singapore’s ” shrinking population problem” has something to do with “Singaporeans are leaving Singapore for greener pasture” as I say.
Yes.Singaporeans also leave Singapore to some Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/4402320
to be continued..
To TALFTS,
You said:I believe the AHMADIYAHH is banned in Malaysia because of conflict in beliefs with other Muslim groups (and so it is because of a “religious” reason). This is in contrast to the banning of JW in Singapore which I believe most will see as NOT being because of “religious” reason but of a national security reason.
My reply: The comparison shown is between Islamic state and secular state, what it has to do with Christianity? It did not make Christianity any better. Your insistence of comparing Islamic state and secular state show your lack of ideas to defend Christianity.This discussion is about Islam and Christianity. It about true god. Secularism abhors god, that why it allows homosexuality, abortion, contraception, banning of prayer in public school etc.
Do you condone free sex, homosexuality, abortion, contraception, gambling etc in the name of freedom in with spirit of secularism?
to be continued..
To TALFTS,
Your simplistic disassociation from religious state ( including Christian religious state ) helps you to to escape shouldering responsibilities of Christian atrocities for the short term period, but invites other more serious problem.
Since Christian kingdom is not in this world as preach by Jesus, any Christian king in this world is not legitimate in the eye of god. ( and not supported by you too and you prefer secular one ) Therefore, his ( king ) actions must be considered illegitimate too. Just like an illegal judge produces illegal judgment. Therefore The council of Nicaea which initiated by Constantine 1 also illegitimate because he is illegitimate Christian king. A Christian cannot be a king and rules a Christian kingdom in this world. The first counsel was convened for the purpose of destroying the perceived heresies of ARIANISM ( belief that Jesus is not a god ), and to agree on Easters day of observance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
Wiki said:The long-term effects of the Council of Nicaea were significant. For the first time, representatives of many of the bishops of the Church convened to agree on a doctrinal statement. Also for the first time, the Emperor played a ROLE, by calling together the bishops under his AUTHORITY, and using the POWER of the state to give the Council’s orders effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
I would like to say that your TRINITY belief is uphold and forced by an Emperor/ Christian King ruling a religious state, which you don’s support and considered as illegitimate by your own standard.
What do you say?
To be continued…
To Syukri
With reference to your post: -Syukri, Dec 29th, 2009 at 1:01 pm, – Your comments on Singaporeans leaving Singapore is not relevant to the focus of this blog-site. The focus of this blog-site is religious in nature; therefore to talk about Singaporeans leaving for economic reasons to go to another secular state is off – topic.
However, what would be related to our discussion would be Singaporeans taking up citizenship in Muslim countries(not just staying there).
Your references to Singaporeans leaving Singapore for Indonesia does not say anything. This is because, as far as I know, Indonesia has a large Muslim population but its official policy is not Islamic but PANCASILA ( which includes a recognition of 5 official religions – Islam, Christianity, Hinduism…..). My view is: To say that Indonesia is a Muslim country is like saying the USA is a Christian country. Both these countries have large populations of one dominant religion but the countries mentioned are, in my view, secular states without one official religion. So your point that there are Singaporeans leaving Singapore for Indonesia says nothing (as Indonesia is not officially an Islamic country).
With regard to Singaporeans leaving Singapore for Malaysia, I am aware of that possibility myself. I have come across Singapore citizens who married Malaysians. Their children all had Malaysian identity cards. But the fact that the whole family seems more keen to stay in Malaysia than Singapore may not surprise us as the family was Malay-Muslim and may prefer to stay in a place where the Malay-Muslims are in the majority. So, Syukri, your references regarding Singaporeans leaving Singapore for Muslim countries also says nothing if those Singaporeans are Muslims.
Regarding the article that you quoted:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/4402320
there is no indication of the religions of the persons who leave Singapore to go to Muslim countries; so I do not think that that article supports you on the question/idea I mentioned earlier i.e Are Non-Muslims applying to be citizens of Islamic States?
To Syukri
You say:” But I realize one thing, as a christian, you have never experience interfaith living in Christian countries ( secular countries is not Christians ya, don’t be confused ). If you are living in truly Christian countries, other faith are crushed. Why? Because Christians want to treat people indifferently. In other word, they want all people to be Christians like them so that they can treat people indifferently. ( unlike Muslims who treat Jews and Christians differently and distinctively ).” -SyukriDec 10th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
My reply: Again more propaganda. To your statement “‘they(Christians) want all people to be Christians like them.” I say it is against logic to try to force people to be Christian (and to remain Christian).
The following are samples of Muslims presently (by force) trying to prevent people from leaving Islam. They(Muslims) want all people to be Muslim like them.
For Everyone’s information : –
Egyptian court: “Islam is the final and most complete religion and therefore Muslims already practice full freedom of religion and cannot convert”
Muhammad Hegazy Update.
“Egypt Rules Christian Convert Must Remain Legally Muslim,” by Ethan Cole for the Christian Post: An Egyptian judge ruled this week in an unprecedented case that a Muslim who converted to Christianity cannot legally change his religious status, although he may believe what he wants in his heart. Muhammad Hegazy, 25, lost his case on Tuesday when Judge Muhammad Husseini of a court in Cairo said according to sharia, or Islamic law, Islam is the final and most complete religion and therefore Muslims already practice full freedom of religion and cannot convert to an older belief (Christianity or Judaism), according to Christian Solidarity Worldwide. No compulsion in religion. “He (Hegazy) can believe whatever he wants in his heart, but on paper he can’t convert,” Husseini told the administrative court, according to a member of Hegazy’s legal team to Compass Direct. Judge Husseini based his decision on Article II of the Egyptian constitution, which makes sharia the source of Egyptian law. Hegazy has denounced the ruling as a “violation” of his basic rights. “What does the state have to do with the religion I embrace?”. —
I (truth) found this article when I googled the Egyptian’s name -”Muhammad Hegazy”. I got this from a Christian source. But this topic is also found in secular sources. You may also want to google or wiki : Abdul Rahman convert to Christianity. Also wiki ‘Lina Joy’ I know that there are persons who convert from Christianity to Islam (or the other way around). My point here is to give examples of Islamic Authorities placing obstacles in the way of anyone who tries to get his conversion from Islam to something else recognised officially. I choose to remain a Christian. Should I decide to leave Christianity, I am not aware of any large organization (e.g. Church, Government) that will try to stop me by force. (There is always the possibility of Christian fanatics who may try to cause trouble for ex-Christians but that is unlikely in Christianity today. Please note that the words “fanatics” and “terrorist” are words that are not presently associated with Christians in most people’s minds, I think it is fair to say. Why is that so?) Why does Islam try, by force, to prevent people from leaving it . This reminds me of the Berlin Wall. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in communist countries from escaping to the free world. Similarly Islamic authorities have measures to try to prevent persons from escaping out of Islam. So Islamic ideology is in one sense similar to the flawed European Communist ideology. Islam has a ” Berlin Wall” (or rather some versions of Islam has a “Berlin Wall”). Christianity does not. Why is that so?
To Syukri,
You say:”The comparison shown is between Islamic state and secular state, what it has to do with Christianity? It did not make Christianity any better. Your insistence of comparing Islamic state and secular state show your lack of ideas to defend Christianity.This discussion is about Islam and Christianity.” -(Syukri, Dec 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm).
My reply: I notice in Islamic writing, there is this idea that goes along the lines of -” THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF GOD , therefore its Arabic is of the highest class; the Quran’s ideas are the greatest ideas, SO HIGHT ABOVE ALL OTHER WRITING THAT NOBODY CAN PRODUCE ANYTHING TO EQUAL THE QURAN IN BEAUTY, THOUGHT,…ETC.”
This kind of thinking also applies to the way Muslims refer to Muhammad ( i.e. -Muhammad was the greatest among men and is a worthy example to follow….etc..)
Therefore, also, I naturally would expect certain Muslims (like yourself ,Syukri) to try to convince everyone that the Islamic state is superior to every other state. (You have not disappointed me in this e.g -as you try to show CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES committed by, what you would refer to as, Christian States thereby trying to say that Islamic State is superior)
However, I wish to point out to you that the idea of a Christian State is, for me, problematic.
I wish to expand on that later, if the Lord allows.
Having said that, even without referring to a so-called “Christian State”, I felt that I could show the weakness of your version of Islam (and the Islamic State) by comparing aspects of the Secular State and the Islamic State (as the AHMADIYAHH example so clearly shows.)
I do not expect you to agree with me, here, that certain aspects of the Secular State is superior to the Islamic State (You cannot, ot course.). I am just happy to have replied to your propaganda and to give readers something to think about.
It is not good for your position if it can be seen that the Secular State is superior in certain ways compared to the Islamic State (The “Christian State ” need not be even in the picture.)
Shalom to All!
I’m back after a long break from posting here!
A Blessed and wonderful year 2010 to ALL!
Let the name of JESUS/Yeshua be glorified, magnified as we keep on blowing the trumpets of praise & worship to Him!
God bless & Shalom,
Emmanuel
Heya Emmanuel!
Finally, I got the chance to say hi to ya bro, the man himself. And a blessed and wonderful 2010 to you too.
So ah, will you be able to stick around for some Q&A that we’ve got here? Constructive ones that is becoz it seems to me nobody here is able to answer me with certainty. But if you are busy, I fully understand and will not be forcing you to it ya.
Looking forward to a meaningful comm session with you now. I really mean it.
Peace to you now bro.
Hi Emmanuel & “truth and light from the Son”,
You guys SERIOUSLY should read about Unitarianism Christianity. C’mon we don’t have to tell you guys to do your homework do we? Goodness. Everyone should be entitled to their own opinion and so do i..
Anw FYI, there are so many contradictions, variations & VERSIONS of the HOLY Bible. I’m not condemning one’s religion, etc. I’m just sharing with you guys FACTs and facts don’t lie do they?
PROVE (of what im saying in para 2): Watch how this Paster Sjoberg and Ahmad Deedat having a debate. “islam vs christianity debate ( is the bible god word) part 1? WATCH all of the parts that followed…
Both of you (Emmanuel & “truth and light from the Son”) will have a laugh about it.
Enjoy..
Hi Guys (Emmanuel & “truth and light from the Son”)
You guys can watch it in you tube. Look up for Ahmad Deedat & Pastor Sjoberg. Ahmad Deedat did a dialogue with the Pope as well. Go ahead ana google about it.
And FYI, Ahmad Deedat is a scholar and mesmerized every bible that you can ever imagine or get hold of. I doubt any pastor did that…. You guys will be amazed of how many contradicting or VERSIONS these HOLY Bibles have and i wonder which is which.
If im a free thinker choosing which religion to go to, this one will confused me.
Anyone who read my comments, no offense. I’m just sharing my thots like you guys are. We are living in this free world, so like everyone agreed, we are entitled to our own opinions right? Unless we are in North Korea…. or in Taliban ruled country…
Cheers everybody!
Hey Eric,
You want some “constructive” Q&As? Shoot me… I’ll be more than willing to ans you with certainty… You bet i will.. Hope to hear from you (Eric) soon..
Cheers!
Salam to all,
I’m back after busy schedule of work. Hope everyone is fine. I’m happy that Emmanuel is back because he always makes sensible arguments. In fact, he was the first person commented my post in this blog. I’m grateful that I never feel being judged in this discussion ( my language, my nationality, my faith etc ) I’m also happy that this obscure corner of this online world is alive and kicking, ( growing and attracting followers of both faiths ) due to one magnificent factor: FAITH. As put by a commenter, this love-hate relation does not seem to end very soon. Therefore, let’s explore each others. I must admit that during period of my absence here, I missed you all.
Allahu akbar
Allah is the greatest
Syukri
Salam,
I’ve got my copy of Holy Bible recently and have been reading it in my spare time. I underlined and marked some verses, such as:
Act 3 ;13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His SERVANT Jesus….
John 20: 17…..I’m ASCENDING to my father and your father, and to MY God and your God…
Jesus is a servant of God, he was sent by God, he worship the same God of his disciples and raised to the heaven as Muslim believe.
interesting. Any other creative explanation?
Syukri
( just to start the ball rolling again..)
Assalamualaikum Syukri,
Apa khabar awak? Dah lama menuggu di sini? Untuk pengetahuan anda, there is another ball that has just started rolling at:
http://evan.tedfox.com/pages/pls-do-not-persuade-those-malay-born-muslim-to-be-christian/
Jadi senang senangkan diri lah ye pergi ke sana kalau dah lama sangat menuggu disini hingga naik boring .peminat awak pun ada di sana. tengah beraksi sekarang ni …hehehe…InsyaAllah kita bertemu di sana.
Wassalam
PS Eric, I am not sure if you’re Malay, but if you are reading this, I have just told Syukri that there is another ball that has just started rolling and that his no.1 fan is now there in action…but it is in Malay. But just in case if you are interested to join us, I will be more than glad to translate for you bro. So hope to see you there! Just click the link above, thats where it is…peace to you bro.
Waalaikumussalam HBSLB
Saya khabar baik. Terima kasih. Bagaimana dengan awak? Harap semuanya berada dalam keadaan baik-baik sahaja. Lama juga menunggu, tapi tak kisah sangat sebab saya tahu masing-masing sibuk. Saya berterima kasih atas makluman di atas. Cuma saya ingin kongsikan sedikit pandangan.
Pada pandangan saya, orang Kristian akan menanti peluang supaya kita menunjukkan kesalahan supaya dia boleh tunjuk ‘kebaikan’ mereka. Sebagai contoh, bila kita memanggil mereka dengan gelaran-gelaran yang kurang baik, mereka akan katakan semoga Jesus maafkan kita, Jesus cinta orang yang yang berdosa ( sinners ) dan lain-lain lagi.. supaya mereka dapat menunjuk bahawa mereka adalah orang yang baik dan bersabar dan akhirnya mereka meraih simpati.
Walaupun kita marah pada mereka, kita masih terikat dengan prinsip keadilan Islam. Itu yang membezakan kita dan mereka. Allah berfirman:
5:8 O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
6:108 Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.
Ketika Tentera Salib menawan Jerusalem, mereka membunuh semua orang Islam tidak kira kanak-kanak, perempuan, orang tua dan pendeta di rumah ibadat. Tapi ketika Salahuddin Ayyubi bersama tentera Islam menakluk semula Jerusalem, dia tidak membunuh orang awam Kristian, sama yang dilakukan oleh Umar Al Khattab sehingga dia disanjung oleh musuhnya sendiri, Richard Berhati Singa.
Mereka berperang berbekalkan rasa marah dan menurut nafsu dendam, tapi kita berperang dengan ketaatan kepada Allah. Itulah prinsip yang perlu kita pakai dalam perbincangan ini walaupun saya tetap menghormati hak bersuara saudara.
Those who anger you, conquer you
Terima kasih
Syukri
Peace to All,
Truth and light from the Son says:
Muslims are again repeating the challenge that Jesus did not say “I am God. Worship Me”. However, Jesus did say ” I am… the Truth..”(John 14:6) The Truth is one of Allah’s 99 names. I have the truth from Jesus but I am not the truth.But Jesus is the Truth. Jesus is God. Also Jesus called himself the light of the world(John 8:12) The light is one of Allah’s 99 names. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John8:58-59) “I AM” being the name God used to refer to himself when he spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:14). So Jesus uses terms that is reserved for God when referring to himself(Jewish terms for God as well as terms that Muslims today use). Jesus is therefore saying that he is God.
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Hi TLFS,
So much of your futile effort to misquote the 99 attributes of God to support your false claims. You don’t have any idea about these 99 attributes and blindly tried to relate them to Jesus. Allah’s name huh! Allah is also one of God’s name too, with an exception that no definitions or meanings tagged, unlike other names. There’s a hidden “treasure” behind this unique name, Allah. Allah is the TRUTH “within” every being and His ENTIRE Creations.
Search the Truth within your inner Self, and you’ll find the truth of Allah. ALLAH is not isolated, not far, not separated or hidden somewhere. ALLAH is close to his Creations but ALLAH is NOT His own Creations. Jesus knows this coz God has chosen him to witness the Truth within his inner Self. The prophets and awliya Allah (the saints) know this truth, not just Jesus. Once the Truth has been revealed, one will only witness the existence of God over-ruling his entire Creations.
99 names of Allah referred to Jesus alone? Don’t be so narrow minded. We all bear the TRUTH within our inner SELF, BUT NOT EVERYONE KNOWS IT coz GOD REVEAL GOD SELF TO THOSE HE CHOOSES. Those who purify their hearts, mind and soul and prostrate to God with utmost sincerity will acquire the knowledge of GOD, and guided by God to witness this Ultimate Truth. At this stage, one will utter the words “I AM the TRUTH”.
Islam proves to be the only religion that opens the path to all mankind to gain knowledge of their inner SELF and therefore reveals the TRUTH within. We call it “Makrifatullah”. Coz, WE ARE the attributes of GOD likewise Jesus. The 99 attributes dwells within God’s Creations and it connects every Life to God, Like the Sun and its Rays, it can never be separated. God is everywhere around us and His Entire Creations.
Deny my statements, then you need to prove to me on your Christians standpoint of God being Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omipresent. Where can you find God, in outer space? Christians post your reply.
Peace
Salam to all.
TLFS, are you still there? Do you dare to do ‘mubahalah’ if you really believe in your saviour, or you fear of death surpass your belief in your trinity gods? If your belief cannot guarantee you safety in this life, how can you make sure your belief can save you in afterlife?
Bro Eric, could you please send me your email at islamsyukri@yahoo.com
Syukri
Mubahalah or trial through prayer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mubahalah
This invitation is extended to Emmanuel too.
Syukri
Hi Bro Syukri,
Iman (faith) can’t be built through falsehood. Only the heart who knows its Creator possess the courage and strength to face any form of challenges in this world. Allah strengthens the heart of those with Iman and Ihsan, whom which Allah has chosen such they fear not of what contains in this world of deceptions.
Ask them if they would die for their faith, they’d rather “forsook and fled”. So expect none from any of them to take up your challenge.
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Dear Christians Bros and Sis,
Its amusing if Christians fear death which had claimed their “God’s Life” once. Without considering the absurdity of such beliefs and without shame they proclaim Jesus as GOD THE “Life, Light and Truth” who then “Died for our sins”. How can “Life” transforms itself to death as like how can Truth transforms to Falsehood and Light transforms to Darkness? The latter is not another existence but an effect due to the absence of the former.
Christians simply delude themselves in blind faith without thinking that “Death” is actually an absence of Life as like Darkness is an absence of Light and Falsehood is an absence of Truth. One being the True existence while the other is an absence of the real Existence, NOT ANOTHER Existence. This is the reality of ALL life which God has created.
If Life is GOD, how can death befall on God (Jesus) which is totally impossible because Death is a result of Absence of Life (God). So Death is NOT an Existence hence has no significance to the real “Existence”. Death itself is “imaginary” which is only cast upon God’s creation, as an effect when “LIFE” is absent, away or separated from God’s CREATIONS.
So if Death had befallen on JESUS. it is only a sign that Jesus is just one of God’s Creations. LIFE, LIGHT AND TRUTH are everlasting, without beginning and end. LIFE can’t face death, as death is NOT AN EXISTENCE rather a result of the ABSENCE OF LIFE. So what significance does “Jesus sacrifice through his death” brought to the atonement of human sins?? “Death” is only “Imaginary” and cannot happen to “Life” itself. God can’t face death to atone for human sins, because Death is NOT PART OF GOD’S EXISTENCE.
Existence and Non Existence are not TWO different forms of Existence but the latter is an effect due to the absence of the former. So Christians, God is not what you can think or imagine, but God is nearer to us than you have ever imagine. The attributes of God manifest in His entire creations and God has never been separated, isolated, hidden or departed away from His Entire Creations. If we are separated from God, from whom do we get our Life?
Wake up and embrace Islam before its TOO LATE.
Islam is Truth.
Peace
To Syukri (and Zaid)
You say: “Syukri
Mar 27th, 2010 at 8:18 pm,
“….Do you dare to do ‘mubahalah’ if you really believe in your saviour, or you fear of death surpass your belief in your trinity gods? If your belief cannot guarantee you safety in this life, how can you make sure your belief can save you in afterlife?….” Syukri.
Acording to WIKI (i.e. the link you supplied) – “Mubahala (Arabic: ?????? Cursing) or Li’an (Arabic: ?????) refers in Islamic tradition to invoking the curse of God on the erring party as a means to prove one’s truthfulness.” – WIKI
What you wrote seems odd to me.
I am not aware of anything like ‘mubahalah’ in Christian tradition. (I may be wrong). However, I believe that “Thou shall not lie” is one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:16). (So naturally a Christian is looking for trouble by not following one of the Ten Commandments, isn’t it)
WIKI says “Mubahala refers in Islamic tradition to invoking the curse of God … as a means to prove one’s truthfulness.” – WIKI
Are you suggesting that what I write are lies. That is an odd thing to suggest because (as you should be aware by now) my statements are supported by quotations from the Bible and opinions from ‘Answering Islam’.
I am sure you are aware, by now, of the points I will bring up like e.g. Why Muhammad is not the prophet predicted to come in Deut. 18:18 ; nor is he ‘Another Comforter’ to come after Jesus in the New Testament. (Please refer to the blogs between Sonlight{my new nickname} and Zaid beginning -{Sonlight, Mar 16th, 2010 at 5:11 am on the site :
http://evan.tedfox.com/pages/pls-do-not-persuade-those-malay-born-muslim-to-be-christian/ }
I believe these points are well- known among more knowledgeable Christians. The fact that what I say can be verified (Muslims and Christians can look up those verses and articles if they so wish) proves that what I say are no fairy tales I created but are actually published Christian viewpoints.
So I feel your suggestion of “Mubahala … as a means to prove one’s truthfulness.” – WIKI. is odd if it is your intention to proof your integrity ( or whatever) as superior to mine (as I understand) before all readers. Readers can easily check up to see if what I say ( quoted and referred to) is true.
Also, you say:”…If your belief cannot guarantee you safety in this life, how can you make sure your belief can save you in afterlife?….” Syukri.
I also find this statement nonsensical.
From my reading, Muslims claim many prophets were killed. If God allowed His holy prophets to be killed, I think it is unreasonable of me to expect (or demand of God) to be better treated (and I am certainly no holy prophet).
As to your statement:”how can you make sure your belief can save you in afterlife?….” Syukri.
My personal answer to this is: It is a question of faith.
But the faith I have is not blind. It is, to my mind, supported by logic; logic that is sound and beautiful. I have decided to write on this blog-site partly to demonstrate and to share the beautiful logic I see in the Christian beliefs ( that I , of course, believe is superior to Islamic logic because Christianity is the one that I believe is true).
Opponents of the Christian religion may say that Christianity plays on the” heart”; the emotions.
But I pray that from what I have written all may come to appreciate that people become Christians also because of the sound logic converts see in Christian beliefs/Bible; beliefs I invite all to explore for the safety of their souls.
Peace….out
Sonlight.
To TALFTS or Sonlight (??? )
What kind of logic of your bible if the authors are unknown and cannot be verified? The question that yet to be answered by you. Will you accept any witness of the unknown in the court?
Life and death is decided by God, in case of prophet being killed it is already being told by God to them, and even in Islam the highest level of iman is through martyrdom / syahid on death in the path of Allah. It will not determine right or wrong in natural situation. Everyone will eventually taste death. But in special case, like mubahalah, when both parties agree to accept death as a form of punishment of their lie, the one who really lie will die within short period of time.
It depends on you. If you really belief in your gods, he will surely protect you against my Allah. I believe in my Allah and ready to face instant death if I really lie and my faith is false. So do you dare? Or you are afraid of leaving your beloved one and unsure whether you gods will protect you?
Syukri
Hi TALFTS
I’ve posted questons which Sonlight has yet to answer.
Deut: 18:18 says “I will raise a prophet among their brethren.”
God was talking to Moses, a Jew and GOD mentioned “THEIR” not YOUR. God would have said among YOUR brother if the prophet was another Jew. However, the word “THEIR” was rather referring to the entire Jewish entity, or race. So God refers to the BROTHERS OF THE JEWS ie the Arabs, NOT BROTHER OF ANOTHER JEW.
…And I [Jesus], will ask the Father and he will send you another Paraclete to be with you forever (John 14:16). I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come (John 16:12-13).
Where are the “MANY THINGS” that Jesus said will be revealed by the ANOTHER Comforter? It was obviously referring to another NEW REVELATION which Jesus had not yet said or preached. Did the Holy Spirit fulfilled this prophecy? Or did any of the Gospel writer revealed the “MANY THINGS” which Jesus foretold? Answer is NONE. Proof or show to me these “Many Things” that Jesus said if you deny it is the Quran.
You should realize what kind of ppl are the Jews, since God had to send lines of prophets to constantly remind them to abide and submit themselves to God. However, they persecuted and deny every prophets sent to them. Due to their nonstop trangressions, that God taught them a lesson and sent the final prophet as a Non Jew. If the Jews had been obedient, there’s no necessity to send lines of prophets to constantly remind and guide them.
The Jews should simply stop their hallucination that they are The Chosen ppl of God. However, they tried in vain to hide the truth, that the final prophet is indeed a Non Jew.
Wake up Christians.
Islam is Truth
Hi TALFTS,
By now you should have realized my points in Islamic perspectives about GOD. First, Jesus death proved Jesus is not GOD. Reason, God created Adam (Human) as His Images (mentioned in Bible and Islam) So we can be referred as His “Mirrors”. (This the closest example that I can relate to you about God’s relationship to us). God is beyond any comprehension, descriptions or imaginations.
For your understanding, a mirror is a device that reflects any image shone onto its surface. We(Mirror) can reflect the attributes of GOD, as upon what God has willed upon each individual. If Life appears on us, so we lived. If Life is turned away from our mirrors, we experience “DEATH”. God can’t die or experience death, because Life originates from God. Only His Creations can face “Death”, ie if God turns away Life from us. Absence of Life can only occur to the Creations, but impossible that Life departs from God, since it belongs to God and inseparable from God.
You are ultimately LOST, if you insist that Jesus is God who sacrifice his life and blood to atone for our sins. If you believed that Jesus truly died, resurrected and now in “HEAVEN”, then where are God’s Superiority and Al-Mightiness? How can you prove God’s omniscience, presence and omnipotence? Why God went to Heaven? If you believed so, then you are limiting God cause God is timeless and unlimited by space or location. God is everywhere within His Creations, do you stll not TAKE HEED?
Islam is Truth.
Peace
To Syukri
You say:”It depends on you. If you really belief in your gods, he will surely protect you against my Allah. I believe in my Allah and ready to face instant death if I really lie and my faith is false. So do you dare? Or you are afraid of leaving your beloved one and unsure whether you gods will protect you?”- Syukri – Apr 3rd, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Sonlight: From my understanding as a Christian, there is no such thing as Allah(of the Muslims) that I need to be protected from. God has given me life and it belongs to Him to do as He please (and whether He chooses to protect it or not).
I am wondering why you are bringing a new approach (e.g. with ‘mubahalah’) when talking to me here. Is it because my answers (which are not all really mine but are often Christian views that I have found on the internet) appears very persuasive and convincing.
I shall not be responding on this blog-site anymore. It is getting to be too long. If I should continue to write, it shall be on the blog-site :
http://evan.tedfox.com/pages/pls-do-not-persuade-those-malay-born-muslim-to-be-christian/
peace… out
Salam,
Is it because my answers (which are not all really mine but are often Christian views that I have found on the internet) appears very persuasive and convincing. Sonlight
My reply: I’ve never seen a person as ‘perasan’ as you. By the way, It’s so amusing to have someone who is so desperate to look confident but at the same time coward and ‘berdolak dalih’. What is so persuasive and convincing having bible penned by unknown? And still no reply about who is the real authors of Bible?
It does not matter if you don’t believe in my Allah because I also don’t believe in your half human god. Let’s us just say” The Truth and AlMighty God the Creator and Sustainer, whoever you might be, let your curse be upon those who lies between us’. You don’t even have to sign a document, write your real name and advertise it. Just between us and The God. Dare or not? It must be noted that I’m ransoming my life too if I lie.
If you insist of not doing it, I will understand, because this is what Allah said in Holy Quran:
3:151 Into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth We shall cast DREAD in return for their ascribing divinity, side by side with God, to other beings – [something] for which He has never bestowed any warrant from on high; and their goal is the HELLFIRE- and how evil that abode of evildoers! –
Previously, in some culture, in order to find out who is the thief among few people, they will be asked to put their hands in the hot boiling oil. those who really steal will be discovered even before they put their hand from their reaction. Those who did not steal will happily ready to put their hand even though they are not asked to do so. It’s simple, berani kerana benar, takut kerana salah.
If you don’t want, I will understand.
Syukri
2:94 Say (unto them): If the abode of the Hereafter in the providence of Lord is indeed for you alone and not for others of mankind (as ye pretend), then LONG FOR DEATH (for ye must long for death) if ye are truthful. –
2:95 But NEVER will they long for it, because [they are aware] of what their hands have sent ahead in this world: and God has full knowledge of evildoers. -
there is a much rudeness from visitors. Religion should respected as a personal choice. each is accountable for his own life. why can’t visitors who are not professing the faith of this blog seek so hard to destroy?
Visitors should not try so hard to destroy others in their own blog because it is transgression and aggression against another who welcome you to this blog. Its height of rudeness. Peace to all who brings only God’s Love and Graciousness.
Remove the spirit of anger from your heart before entering so you can experience the True Peace that only comes from the Almighty God.
The Greatest of all is LOVE. if you don’t this, you have nothing. Its about UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
That’s the message of the cross.
Sonny,
I suggest you tell that to your friend hamzah first. His posts are just testimony of how loving the message of the cross is towards other religion. Peace to you now.
Its always ONLY about God NOT us mere human beings. Seek HIm sincerely and with humility. do not mock His less than perfect worshippers for if we are perfect, there’s no need for Jesus or God.
He knows the number of hair on your head- He knows the your working of heart. YOU CAN’T OUTSMART HIM.
Jesus says that he is standing at the door of your heart and if YOu invite Him in, He will come in and be with you.
He is at your door and wants to bring Peace and Salvation to you. Aren’t you going to open and ask Him?
Never be afraid to seek the True God for He can be found. He promised the true seeking heart.
May you live to taste the Sweet LOVE and PEACE of God, the creator of this universe.
IN THE END, ITS REALLY BETWEEN YOU AND HIM. (not us mere humans. don’t shoot the messengers.)
“do not mock His less than perfect worshippers for if we are perfect,” “sonny”
Thats right sonny, like I said, tell that to your dear friend hamzah first.
Dear Sonny & ALL Christians
Aren’t Christians believe that God Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent? Truly, God is everywhere around us, within us and closer to us than we can ever imagine. How can Jesus be God when Jesus is away and out of this world.
Looking for God but couldn’t find Him?
“Praise be to Allah, the Lord of all the worlds,” (1:1) i.e. all types of praise refer to Him. He is the Praiser and the One praised.
If you speak of disconnection, you limit Him,
and if you speak of connection, you define Him.
If you speak of the two together,
then you are free of error.
Allah is not veiled , it is you that are veiled from seeing Him.
If there was anything veiling Him what veil would cover Him.
If he was covered, His existence would be contained.
If something contains something else, it overpowers it.
But He is the Conqueror, overcoming His slaves.
He is nearer to you than you can ever imagine.
How can God be hidden, isolated, separated or a distant away when in TRUTH, GOD IS EVERYWHERE within His Creations. If you can’t find Him in this world, you are definitely LOST in the hereafter.
Seek the Truth now before it is too late,
Seek Islam, the true path towards God.
Peace
Salam(Peace),
How wrong is one’s thought that God the Al Mighty turns Man a mortal being, weak and limited. How narrow-mindedness can overcome a man, that the Creator of the gigantic universe is so bothered about human sins, and sacrificed his BEGOTTEN son to redeem human sins. How faulty is the logical thinking that his BEGOTTEN son is actually Himself(God), and more mysteriously there’s a Holy Spirit who is also Him(God).
When the Son prays to the Father, what logic can explain that these Two is actually One, then how can One who Prays to the Other is actually also the Other One. Did God pray to Himself? Why did Jesus Pray? Why Did he submit to the Father? Why did Jesus lamented “God God why have you forsaken me?” Is this the quality of God, being the Almighty, All Powerful, then broke into a weakling, afraid of facing death crying on the cross asking for help??
How could a sound mind accept this as a logic?? Anyone here can tell where is Jesus now? Heaven? God dwells in heaven? Wonder what He is doing now?? Sitting on a throne, with Christians sitting around playing harp and singing.
Seek the ultimate Truth. God is so close, so near that He is the Truth, the Light and the Life in us. He’s always there, with His Creations as the Quran says: Wahuwa ma akum ainama kuntum. And I am with you wherever you are.
Seek the Truth, Islam.
Peace