shallom to all readers
first af all all, I would like to say glory to God and thank you so much to Bro. Emmanuel for this wonderful blogs. this is absollutely a strong messages to all of us who wanted to know the truth in Christ Jesus. in fact there’s only ONE WAY journey to our salvation. ONLY ONE!! its through Jesus Christ. Hard to accept? To the Muslim brethren…i would like to ask this question. just say if you wanted to go to one place, would you like to follow the one that can give you the assurance or the one that unsure about it? now, let us see a few thought of why i am following Jesus.
#1) because Jesus is in heaven ( that proved He is not a liar nor a sinner ) did prophet Muhammad give this assurance or is he in heaven as been written in quran?
#2) while Jesus teach us to love others and even our enemy…prophet Muhammad ask his followers to terminates those who against islam or even persecuting those who wanted to leave islam. until today…i don’t have to prove it.
#3) as a Christian I’ve NEVER been tought to love Christianity because it is just a mere religion but to love God the Father of Whom my salvation comes. True Christian faith does’nt ask you to love religion but to love God.
#4) Jesus is a perfect picture of how God so much love the world!! without sacrifices that loves does’nt have any meaning. Useless!! If you say that you love your family but not willing to sacrifice everything that you have…dare not you say you love them! that is why God demonstrated it to us His perfect love through Jesus Christ! No question pls.
#5) As a Christian we never been tought to protect Christianity because we believed God is the One Who fought for us because it’s belongs to Him. Why we want to protect something when we are in God’s side. God don’t need guns and sword to protect His religion. Only man use guns because they dont have power likes God did. and offcourse you have to use guns and weapons to protect your religion because God is not in your side. He only want us to love Him and not religion….
almost all religions can makes us as good and kind as its can be…but without the truth all of our effort is useless..our ultimate of being like that is to be in heaven and the only way to be there is through Jesus Christ. Jesus is already being in heaven so why not just follow someone who have already did just that?
for those who were out there reading this…pls…pray before you read the bible or study it. Pray to God that He will show you the truth. i don’t ask you to believe in it, but only by praying God will revealed the truth to us. When you ask something from your earthly father…your hope is that your father will give it to you. I believed that God the Father Whom is greater than your father will give it to you when you really ask and believed. remember…dont limit yourself just to your own understanding but see the proof… see the history and see the truth.
God bless you all.
Amen.
Popularity: 34% [?]
Hi Julian,
Great post you have here! You sure have got some people thinking now. That would include me too actually
Your questions you’ve posted to the Muslims just made me think. I’ve read your questions with some serious thoughts and I do hope you can provide me with some reasonable logical answers that will be clear enough to make me believe in this religion.
Well, here goes…The questions I am highlighting here are your questions and particularly those numbered 1, 2 and 4.
In question #1, you are indicating that because Jesus is in heaven so that proves him not to be a liar nor a sinner…well,Julian, according to some other religions…there are other deities who are in Heaven too. So, does that make them to be true deities?
Your question #2…You’ve mentioned Jesus being loving. Ok fair enough. But then again I am not sure about this. Because if the concept that Jesus is God and that he has been God from the beginning, then that just proofs that it was him all along too who has actually inspired the Bible. If that is so, then there was once he had directly ordered his followers to kill the law breakers by stoning them to death. I believe you may have read the Bible well enough and are able to spot those verses that I am referring to, so I do not need to point that out to you here. So, correct me if I’ve erred here but maybe you can make me understand on his concept of love from that stoning to death incident that can be found in the Bible.
Your question #4 indicates that God sacrificed Jesus (or shall I say, Himself actually in this case since Jesus is God) for us so that we can redeem our free gift of salvation. Of course the Jesus is God case is only possibly unless you are a follower of Christadelphia ( http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_onegod.htm#4 )
Again, I am totally confused now Julian. If we are actually to worship a real God, shouldn’t God Himself be a superior being free from all weaknesses as how you have agreed too in your sentence found in question #5 – “Only man use guns because they don’t have power like God did”? To sacrifice Himself just so to forgive us or convince us is just a sign of weakness. A weakness to prove to the world that He is not capable of guiding us as He is till He actually needs to come down here on Earth as Human just so He can convince us. In any case, it has been told that God can just create anything when He says BE. Just like when He created Adam according to your Bible too. You said it best here when you said that God the Father Whom is greater than our fathers will give it to you when you really ask. So, why does He need to get Himself down to Earth just so to feel how we feel and get kicked around and eventually die just so He can forgive us when He can just simply GIVE us that salvation like what you said in your sentences there. Its just amazing to think about this Julian.
Well there you have it my friend. Your thought provoking questions has given rise to some more questions which I do hope you can share with me on what you think about them.
Thanks bro for your attention and Peace for everyone now.
Dear Bro. Norman…shalom,
First of all, thank you for your attention on my writings. I hope that you will continue to read my stand on this topic. Well…sometimes it’s difficult for us to understand something which is beyond our human thought and knowledge. We are just human after all. To answer your questions on my own understanding will never makes you feel convicted because we are all the same. We can’t understand something which is beyond the human logical. That is why I am going to share with you not from my point of view but from the Bible which is the Words of God. If you feel convicted, it’s God that convicts you.
As to answer topic no #1, you have makes what I’ve written even more interesting. Just like you, me too did not understand what is this all about regarding religions. I’m so naive like a blind person. Not until I seek the truth and finally I found it. The question you might have in your mind though, how I know what I believed is the answer? Conviction! I am convicted by it. The Words of God. It is not by force that I’m believed in Jesus. Never I’ve been offered anything to believe in Him. Just a pure belief. You might want to believe in all religions and even their goddess but the question is not what you want to believe that matter but what convinced you or what makes you believed. That’s it! Jesus said in John 14:6 “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” ( NIV )Now, think for a moment. Have we ever found anyone who dare to say what Jesus had said? If any, do we find peace and feel convicted or maybe we just ignore and think those claims are baseless. Remember that Jesus already left us in this World more than 2000 years ago but His Words is still strong and convincingly gives me a new direction in my life. And I believe your life too. To me Jesus is like a ticket to Heaven. Without a ticket, we are not allowed to enter the stadium to watch soccer, we must get a ticket in order to enter it. No ticket no entry. Simple reason.
As to refer to topic #2, I came to the conclusions that you are refer to some of the books in the Old Testament: Num. 15:35 Jos. 7:25 etc. First, we talk about the stoning things in the Old Testament. Have you ever ask why this punishment happen? It’s all because of our ignorance. We are fools by our own desire. We want something that is not pleasing to God. We want to do something which is against His will. As you read the whole chapters, you will know why God punished them. During that time, stoning to death is a common way of punishing those who found guilty. e( even until today, some of the Middle East Country are still practicing that.) Does God have no Mercy on them. The answer is “yes”. But God will never compromised on their sins. That’s why God spoke to Moses so that the people can received and follow God’s command and repent but they are so ignorance. NUM.15:30-31 “But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people (31) Because he has despised the LORD’s word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.’” Look at the word “defiantly”. In the book of Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”(NIV)Now from this verse, we can get two things. One is death and the other is eternal life. Sins Ignorance=DEATH / Repent Gift Of God=ETERNAL LIFE. This is the time we must received this Gift Bro. This is the time where the favor of the LORD is with us. He want all of us to be saved. That’s is why He show His love and want us to show that love too. Remember that His first idea to create man is to fellowship with Him and not to destroy us. Not until man fall into sins. And that’s is why the power of sin must be broken and Jesus did that on the cross to show His mercy and His grace. And He gives us that victory so that we can be redeemed from our sins and cleans us with His blood. From here we see that Jesus not only died for His followers, but He died and sacrifice Himself on the cross for everyone. A sinner like you and me.
On the topics #4, I hope that you confused no more. That’s is the problem with us as human. We tend to think the way we think. Yes God is so powerful, God created heaven and Earth, God created man and all the Universe. Sounds like He has no problem at all doing anything that He want. When God creates men and women, He create us according to His likeness GEN.1:26. That’s shows that we are most special among all His creations.
Norman, let me ask you this, just say that two person standing in front of God. One is other person and the other one is you. Before you both meet the Lord, the person next to you never believe in Jesus. And worst, he is the one that have killed your wife and all your children that you loved so much. What will you think if both of you received the same treatment from God. Will you think God is fare enough if He treated both of you just as no different? Will you think that God is a good God. Can this justify your thoughts? Yes God can forgive you. But only when you asking for forgiveness.
Norman, God gives us wisdom to think and He gives us the choice to make. And He will not going to force you. It’s our freewill to believed or not. It is pure thing. He is not what we think. He is not like what we want Him to be. He is not like a powerful witchcraft that we watch on television. He is more beyond our human mentality. When God come to this earth it is because of us. To feel what we feel is the perfect understanding for us to understand His Godship. One day we might ask God, help me Lord because of this and because of that. And you know what God will tell you? My child, I understand what you feel and you know that because when you see Me on earth, you see Me suffered the same thing. Worry not, because I will be with you, even when you never notice it. Don’t you feel more secure and more confidence on that. Even more personal?
Bro. it is us that need to understand God’s character towards us and not the other way round. We will never know and believe in something until we saw it. To make that happen, God understand that we cannot go and see Him but He can come and see us and be with us and He did that.
My hope and my prayer is that God Himself will reveal His truth to you. Thank you for spending your time. Jesus loves you. God bless.
Hi Bro Norman. Shalom to you.
It’s has been sometimes and I still waiting for your reply Bro. I hope that everything is fine with you and I also hope that you will reply me soon. Thank you bro. and God Bless.
Dear Julian
You have commented Norman, but you did not directly answer him. Norman argued you clearly whether being in heaven can make someone god, because if that so, all heavenly beings like deities and angels are also gods. Not only Jesus.
You replied him by saying that you are naive, blind person, don’t understand etc, then conviction. You did not address your first proof about divinity of Jesus because he is in heaven!
Jesus according to Bible teach to love and submissive to enemy when they are weak and vulnerable, but kill them when they are capable to do so.
Matthew 10:34 “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword”. You may interpret this verses in other way since there are 38000 ways of interpreting Bible, but the history support my claim.
If you think that God in Bible can punish people because of their mistake, but still regarded as loving god, why the same measure can’t be applied in understanding god in Islam and Prophet Muhammad teachings? By the way, Islam prohibit killing children, woman, old man and priest during war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war_in_Islam
Unlike Christians who indiscriminately killed man woman children during crusade, Inquisition, and war of religion among European which proved the savage nature of Bible teachings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
Wikipedia says: Once inside the city, as was standard military practice at the time,[16] the Crusaders massacred the Muslim inhabitants, destroyed mosques and pillaged the city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
Muslims are peaceful in nature. Only media ( internationally own by Jews ) portray them as terrorist. Did Taliban go to America and terrorizing American or otherwise? Did Iraqi government ever attack America that they think that they have the right to attack Iraq? Never. Then who are the terrorist? All the bombing did by Muslim are either self defense or revenge.
How can you be sure about salvation in a christianity package when there is no certainty about the real author of the bible ( which you heavily depend on ) ?
Wikipedia says: Most contemporary scholars consider Mark, Matthew, and John to have been written by ANONYMOUS Christians who were NOT eye witnesses to Jesus’ life. Some, but NOT ALL, of Paul’s epistles are considered genuine. Other attributions, such as 1 and 2 Peter, have not been supported by critical scholarship. On the other hand, the very late dates once suggested for the gospels have been largely DISCREDITED..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
Many versions of Bible in Christian denominations also shows the inconsistency and uncertainty on what you understand as the word of God. Then how can you be sooo sure any claim in Bible is really correct?
Lastly, if Jesus really sacrifice himself, which verses saying that he was willingly to do so ( I mean in detail because his refusal was in detail, not just combined general verses ) because as far as I’m concerned, Jesus did not ready to be sacrificed.
” From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” ["Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" in King James Version Bible] — which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:45-46 NIV)
Syukri
Dear Julian,
It’s has been sometimes and I still waiting for your reply . I hope that everything is fine with you and I also hope that you will reply me soon. Thank you. May Allah bless.
Syukri
Hi Syukri,
Thanks for your comment. May you be in a good health. Will gives you some reply soon. Quite busy for this couple of weeks. Take care and God bless.
Thank u syukri for ur explanation..
Hi,
Quran is not complete because it needs Hadist to explain it, unlike Bible. Muslims can not perform prayer if they only refer to Quran.
Quran is chaotic and unorganized while Bible is easy to read and clear.
Pro Christ, you kidding me???
Pro Christ,
“Bible is easy to read and clear” – Pro Christ.
If that is so, can you point out to me where exactly in the bible did Jesus says to worship him?
Salam to all,
Before I explain about relation between Quran and Hadist, I would like to state that Quran and Bible are incomparable. Why is that so?:
1. Even though some people doubt that Quran is the word of God, but at least they all agree that it authored by Muhammad. The origin of Quran therefore is clearer and more certain than Bible. Unlike Quran, Bible is ABOUT life of Jesus and his teaching, NOT authored by Jesus himself, but mostly penned by UNKNOWN authors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
2. No one argues that Quran was revealed in Arabic, while the original language of Bible is still debated among scholars ( Aramaic, koine Greek, Hebrew ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_primacy
3. Under Caliph Uthman, Quran with various Arabic dialects is united with Quraish Arabic dialect due to expansion of Islam to non-Arab. This lead to united version of Quran to all Muslim then until now. Quran read in Singapore is the same with Quran read in Africa, Europe or other part of the world. This phenomenon is reflected in annual international Quran recitation competition held in Muslim and non Muslim world.
http://muslimstoday.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/international-quran-competition-underway-in-moscow/
http://www.iqna.ir/en/news_detail.php?ProdID=447172
Unlike Quran, Bible underwent inspection and amendment throughout history to determine whether it is canon ( recognized ) or apocrypha ( hidden or unrecognized ). NOT every branch of the Christian church is in agreement as to which writings are to be regarded as “canonical” and which are “apocryphal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
Interestingly, Christians are also divided in determining their canonical Bible! Wikipedia says: Thus, the Protestant Old Testament of today has a 39-book canon—the number varies from that of the books in the Tanakh (though not in content) because of a different method of division—while the Roman Catholic Church recognizes 46 books as part of the canonical Old Testament. The term “Hebrew Scriptures” is only synonymous with the Protestant Old Testament, not the Catholic, which contains the Hebrew Scriptures and additional texts. Both Catholics and Protestants have the same 27-book New Testament Canon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
4. Quran is studied and read in its original language ( Arabic ) by Muslims regardless of their nationalities, thus preserving its authenticity, while Bible underwent ongoing translation thus destroy its beauty in the original language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur‘an
Wikipedia says regarding the difficulty of Bible translation: As Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the Bible, have idioms and concepts not easily translated, there is an on going critical tension about whether it is better to give a word for word translation or to give a translation that gives a parallel idiom in the target language. For instance, in the English language Catholic translation, the New American Bible, as well as the Protestant translations of the Christian Bible, translations like the King James Version, the New Revised Standard Version, and the New American Standard Bible are seen as fairly literal translations (or “word for word”), whereas translations like the New International Version and New Living Translation attempt to give relevant parallel idioms. The Living Bible and The Message are two paraphrases of the Bible that try to convey the original meaning in contemporary language. The further away one gets from word to word translation, the text becomes easier to read while relying more on the theological, linguistic or cultural understanding of the translator, which one would not normally expect a lay reader to require.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations
5. Quran can be memorized wholly. There is million of Muslim who memorizes Quran all over the world.
http://www.memorize-quran.com/
No one memorizes the whole Bible ( do you? ), not even the Pope, because Christians don’t agree what defines Bible! ( Which Bible is the real Bible? Chatholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Ethiopian? ).
Therefore, Quran is incomparable with Bible. In the slightest degree, it only can be compared to Hadist in Islam although not all.
InsyaAllah, I will explain why Hadist is used to explain Quran.
Thank you for reading. Hope you enjoy it
Syukri
Pro Christ,
you still there buddy?
Eric and Syukri,
I’m still here. I will answer all those when you finish.
I’m done. Just waiting for you.
Or do you need more time to find that simple verse in the Bible where Jesus says that we are to worship him?
Thanks.
According to the predominant Christian interpretation, the title “Son of God” is understood as an expression of Jesus’ divinity, specifically his unique divine sonship as the Second Person of the Trinity.
The title is applied often in the Gospels, notably at the Baptism and the Transfiguration (Matthew 3:17 Matthew 17:5). Also significant is the confession of Peter: “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God” (Matthew 16:16). Jesus applies the title “the only Son of God” to himself in John 3:16 and John 10:36. John’s gospel uses the title as a short formula for expressing his divinity: “We have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_of_Jesus
Pro Christ,
maybe you misunderstood me, let me try this again: WHERE EXACTLY DID JESUS SAYS WE ARE TO WORSHIP HIM?
All those that you presented did not have any verse of him saying: WORSHIP ME.
So? How hard can it be to locate such verse?
read what the link that Norman has given:
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_onegod.htm#4
that clearly shows the direct opposite of what you explained buddy. So, the Bible is easy to read and clear? I dont think so my friend unless you can point to me that exact verse in the Bible where Jesus explicitly command us to worship him. Can you?
Eric,
Jesus revealed himself as God the way he wanted it. He provided proof of his godship based on our NEED, not our wanting. How can you be selfish in wanting? Does not your faith teach you to be obedient rather than being recalcitrant?
Pro Christ,
If obedient means to follow whats been instructed, than that will mean to follow what has been commanded by God in His Book. For your case, it will be the Bible.
Have you been following His commandments buddy? Jesus never commanded us to worship him. Its the “predominant Christian interpretation” that says so. Prove to me that he has with any verse that explicitly said so and I’ll be satisfied. Otherwise, I will not want to count myself as another blind follower of a commandmend made by man.
I’m still looking forward for that verse buddy where Jesus explicitly commanded us to worship him. Show me if you can.
Eric,
Give a break. Where is in Quran stated that Allah said ‘ I’m your God, worship me’ and Muhammad is a human and a prophet?
What matters in the end is not the existence of this direct literal
statement, but whether there is clear evidence that he is indeed
God, no matter in which form he issued the claim, right?
Oh Pro Christ,
How ignorant can you be my friend.
“Give a break. Where is in Quran stated that Allah said ‘ I’m your God, worship me’ and Muhammad is a human and a prophet?” – Pro Christ
Thanks for asking Buddy, here it is:
“Verily, I am Allah: There is no god but I: So worship Me (only), and perform regular prayers for My remembrance.” (Qu’ran 20:14)
and here it is regarding Muhammad being a prophet and human
“AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him…” (Qu’ran 3:144)
But of course, those are just two of many other verses reminding us of the above which can be found in the Qu’ran. One just need to look them up to find them. Can you point out where in the Bible did it tells you to worship Jesus?
In the end, it does matter. The only clear evidence should come from God’s own words and not Humans. Which again, in your case, it should be the Bible. The existence of these direct literal statements shows very clearly of the commandments of God from Himself thru His Book to us and not from any other “predominant Christian interpretation” which are obviously from humans and not God.
I believe you are holding firm that the Bible is the word of God. If that is so, if the Bible did not command you to worship Jesus, who commanded you to worship him then, my friend?
Thanks for your attention here buddy.
Muslims are again repeating the challenge that Jesus did not say “I am God. Worship Me”. However, Jesus did say ” I am… the Truth..”(John 14:6) The Truth is one of Allah’s 99 names. I have the truth from Jesus but I am not the truth.But Jesus is the Truth. Jesus is God. Also Jesus called himself the light of the world(John 8:12) The light is one of Allah’s 99 names. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John8:58-59) “I AM” being the name God used to refer to himself when he spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:14). So Jesus uses terms that is reserved for God when referring to himself(Jewish terms for God as well as terms that Muslims today use). Jesus is therefore saying that he is God. If Muslims say that Jesus did not say “I am God” or “Worship me” they are choosing to avoid the fact of Jesus’ claim to divinity(being God). Because if Jesus is God, then Islam is false. Muslim who say Jesus is God are no longer Muslims. So PRO CHRIST if you expect SUKRI or ERIC to agree with you or me(and admit that he gets the point), let me just say that I do not expect it to happen anytime soon — references: Amana Sheikh videos on youtube
Truth and Pro,
Lets not deviate here shall we. You are trying to prove that Jesus is God but all that I did was just responding to Pro Christ claim that the Bible is easy to read and clear.
So, all that I’ve constantly asked for now is if the Bible is so easy to read and clear as how Pro Christ has claimed, where is it then in the Bible did Jesus CLEARLY commanded us to worship him? Is it that difficult to answer such simple question guys?
{“AND MUHAMMAD is only an apostle; all the [other] apostles have passed away before him…” (Qu’ran 3:144)…..
The only clear evidence should come from God’s own words and not HUMANS. Which again, in your case, it should be the Bible. The existence of these direct literal statements shows very clearly of the commandments of God from Himself thru His Book to us and not from any other “predominant Christian interpretation” which are obviously from HUMANS and not God…}- Capitals mine for clarity.
The problem with what you(Eric) have written is this: Both the Bible and the Quran are supposed to be the message of God given through HUMANS e.g. Quran thru angel(supposedly) to Muhammed. The New Testament has more persons writing about the same related subject (e.g. Matthew, Peter ,and John are eye-witnesses to Jesus life and miracles).John 5:31 (NIV)” If I (Jesus)testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.” That is the problem with Muhammad and the Quran. He is his own witness (No one else saw or heard the angel). No other witnesses. Bearing in mind Jesus’ own words, I must reject the Quran because Muhammad testify about himself(being “an apostle” of God). Even the law courts want more witnesses. Is it not true that even in Islamic court cases, two or more witneses are required(as among the Jews- Deuteronomy 19:15) The New Testament has the 2 or 3 witnesses; others testifying about Jesus. The Quran has only the words of 1 man testifying about himself being an apostle of God. The truthfulness of the Quran is on weak foundation when seen through the concept of law as understood by Christians, Jews, Secular law, common sense (and perhaps even Islamic principles). The New Testament is on stronger foundation.
Eric
{Lets not, deviate here shall we. You are trying to prove that Jesus is God…….. where is it then in the Bible did Jesus CLEARLY commanded us to worship him?}.
You are right in saying that I am trying to prove that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, then we are to worship him.(I would think this is implied).So whether any verse exist in the New Testament in which Jesus claims ” Worship me” or not, becomes irrelevant if it is established that Jesus is God. By saying such a verse does not exist, you “deviate” from the real issue which is :”Is Jesus God?”. Jesus is asking you:(Matthew 16:15):”Who do you say I am?” . I hope you answer correctly.
Eric,
I would like to respond to truth and light from Son, You said ‘The New Testament has more persons writing about the same related subject (e.g. Matthew, Peter ,and John are eye-witnesses to Jesus life and miracles).
For your info, Matthew the apostle who eye-witnesses to Jesus is not the writer of Bible’ ” Gospel according to Matthew”. There are more than one person here.
Wikipedia says: Matthew the Evangelist is complex for a number of reasons. Both Epiphanius and Jerome state that Matthew wrote the Gospel according to the Hebrews. The gospel to bear the name “Matthew” was written ANONYMOUSLY, with tradition ascribing authorship to Matthew at a later date. Both the style of Greek used and the means of describing events leads a few to conclude that the author of the gospel was NOT A COMPANION OF THE HISTORIC JESUS. Some use the designation “Matthew the Evangelist” to refer to the ANONYMOUS gospel author, and “Matthew the Apostle” to refer to the Biblical figure described. Christian tradition holds that they are the same person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_the_Evangelist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
The same goes to other ‘eye witness’ of Jesus
John the Apostle, a disciple of Jesus, has been generally accepted as the author of the Fourth Gospel until the modern era. The authorship of the Fourth Gospel was rarely questioned seriously until the end of the eighteenth century.[15] The vast MAJORITY of modern scholars posit that the author was NOT an eyewitness to Jesus’ ministry.[16] Some contemporary scholars suggest still other possibilities of authorship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John
The gospel itself is ANONYMOUS, but as early as Papias in the early 2nd century, a text was attributed to Mark, a cousin of Barnabas.[2], who is said to have recorded the Apostle’s discourses. Papias’ authority in this was John the Presbyter. While the text of Papias is no longer extant, it was quoted by Eusebius of Caesarea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark
Therefore, your argument is not valid. No clear eye witnessess of Jesus. Bible is only a cocktail of stories about Jesus concocted by ANONYMOUS gospel authors.
In case of Muhammad, his companions are his eye witnesses who recorded his life in hadith that I will explain later.
Syukri
One glaring problem the Christians have is that Jesus prayed, and had a God himself. This logically lets us conclude that Jesus cannot be God. The logical thing to do is worship and pray to the one Jesus prayed to. If Jesus told you that he had a God, would you honestly take Jesus as God? The logical answer is no, but Christians throw all logic out when it comes to their Bible.
Matthew 26:36-44
36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter.
41. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”
42. He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.
Please so-called Christians, tell me when should I use “son of God” instead of “God” and vice versa. Because you call Jesus (peace be upon him) “son of God” and “God” whereas the Father is God but the Father is not Jesus.
So Father God is NOT Jesus God yet there is only 1 God: God, which is the Father. Sorry, no, Jesus. Oops! I forgot the Holy Spirit. Ooooh, give up. Could you just solve this tiny little equation please and I know you’ve understood:
1 1 1= ?
Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten–just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son.
The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity.
Syukri
I have read your links to wiki and your comments. I could refer to articles that support pro- Christian views. But that leads to a clash of expert opinions. Anyway the wiki article you quote says:”This article may need to be rewritten entirely to comply with Wikipedia’s quality standards.” Wiki is still a work in progress. (Also, who will accept if Wiki says Islam or Christianity is not true.)
Also, FYI, I did not mention Mark as an eye-witness. I heard that Mark was an assistant to Peter( so he probably did not meet Jesus. FYI – Luke also) However, Peter is an eye-witness. What are you to do with this statement:1 Peter 2:24“He (Christ) himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.”. Peter also said (1 Peter 1:1) -”Peter, an apostle of Jesus. To God’s elect” meaning he wrote the letter. The last two statements do not show that Peter was there throughout every minute of Jesus’ ministry. But it does show what Christians believed from the beginning. How do you account for that. (Please do not tell me that the New Testament has been changed.- lame excuse from Muslims.)
Now about what I wrote earlier.”That is the problem with Muhammad and the Quran. He is his own witness (No one else saw or heard the angel). No other witnesses.” Let me add “no miracles”. Your response please.
If you are to quote the hadith about Muhammad’s life and miracles, let me inform you that I have read (including on this blog site itself) from other Muslims that Muslims do not all agree on the validity of all the Hadiths. (Also there was one Muslim who, on this blog-site said that he was a Quran-only Muslim). It is no use quoting the Hadith to me if Muslims cannot agree on the Hadith or reject it completely.
May you see the light of the Son.
Dear truth,
I will respond to that. Thank you. Correct me if I’m wrong, your points of argument somehow show that you are Hamzah? Aren’t you?
Syukri
I am not Hamzah. Sept 6, 2009 is the first time I am writing on this site. I am writing because I do not see Emmanuel Reza or Hamzah responding here. They are far more knowledgeble than me. I have been following their writings. I am sure you know who they are. Also the points I bring up is not from my own head. These have been around (and now floating in cyber-space).e.g. Answering Islam.
Hi Syukri,
you sure have a good hunch there bro
I have just breezed thru the previous two posts. Truth sure sounds like that lame, I mean same 
, Hamzah with his hadiths and Quran only Muslims argument.
Pro Christ,
where are you buddy? Come back here dude. This is after all are the responses from your confident comment regarding your claim that the Bible is easy to read and clear. I am still looking forward to your opinion my friend.
Truth,
You still have not answered me satisfactorily. Since you hold firm that the Bible is from God, I want to know who commanded us to worship Jesus then since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so. Even though you guys believed that he is god, you have ASSUMED that you should worship to Jesus. The assumptions came from humans interpretation (which are of course open to errors). There is no direct word or command from God Himself in the Bible asking us to worship Jesus.
In any case, your Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God. Even with strong evidence that came directly from God’s Words to prove the FACT that Jesus IS NOT GOD, you guys are still saying Jesus is god? Read the below for comparisons and let us know of your opinion.
God has no god
“Thus says the LORD… I am the first, and I am the last. besides me there is no God…. Is there a God besides me? Indeed there is no other rock; I know not one.” (Isaiah 44:6,8)
Jesus has a God
“Do not cling to me; for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say to them, I am ascending to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17)
God is not a man
“God is not a man, that He should lie; nor a son of man, that he should repent: Has he said, and will not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19)
Jesus is a man
“Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know:” (Acts 2:22)
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (1 Timothy 2:5).
God cannot be tempted
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, nor does he tempt any man:” (James 1:13)
Jesus was tempted
“Because himself hath suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.” (Hebrews 2:18)
“For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:14-15)
God cannot be seen
“dwelling in inapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see.” (1Timothy 6:16)
Jesus was seen
“This is now the third time that Jesus showed himself to his disciples, after he was raised from the dead.” (John 21:14)
God knows everything
“Can anyone hide himself in secret places so that I will not see him? says the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth?” (Jeremiah 23:24)
Jesus learnt
“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” (Luke 2:52)
“Though he was a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered;” (Hebrews 5:8)
“But of that day and that hour no one knows, neither the angels which are in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
God cannot die
“See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me… I live for ever.” (Deuteronomy 32:39-40)
“Who only hath immortality” (1 Timothy 6:16)
Jesus died
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.” (1Corinthians 15:3)
“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;” (Revelation 1:18)
God is subject to no one
“I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,” (Isaiah 42:8)
Jesus is subject to God
“my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of woman is man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)
“Then the son also will be subject to Him that put all things under him” (1Corinthians 15:28)
God is everlasting
“Now unto the King, eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever” (1 Timothy 1:17)
Jesus was created
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.” (Galatians 4:4)
“… You are my Son, today I have begotten you” (Hebrews 1:5)
God is all powerful
“Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?” (Jeremiah 32:27)
“Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker; “Ask me of things to come concerning My sons, and concerning the work of My hands, you command Me. I have made the earth, and created man on it. It was I – My hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded.” (Isaiah 45:11-12)
Jesus is not all powerful
“Then answered Jesus and said to them; Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he sees the Father do: for whatever he does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does” (John 5:19-20)
“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with vehement crys and tears to Him who was able to save him from death, and was heard because of his godly fear;” (Hebrews 5:7-8)
God is Perfect
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)
Jesus had to be made perfect
“And having been perfected, he became the author of eternal salvation” (Hebrews 5:9)
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God” (Luke 18:19)
Truth,
On top of what I have said, you’ve also said:
“…you “deviate” from the real issue which is :”Is Jesus God?”. Jesus is asking you:(Matthew 16:15):”Who do you say I am?” . I hope you answer correctly.” – Truth
Simon answered Jesus is Christ and Jesus himself acknowledged it. Christ is not god buddy. The term Christ means Messiah, the definition of Messiah is not God.
So where in that verse and also the preceding ones at the rest of Matthew 16 did Jesus and his followers answered that Jesus is god?
Show me where please
truth and light from son wrote…
Please do not tell me that the New Testament has been changed.- lame excuse from Muslims.
Now, what can be more lame than a Christian who denies the fact that the Bible has been changed at least once by man. Please do entertain us with your lamest explanation regarding 1 John 5:7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum). So Christians in denial, do what you do best, post your junks here.
To Eric
I mentioned earlier:
“If Jesus is God, then we are to worship him.(I would think this is implied).So whether any verse exist in the New Testament in which Jesus claims ” Worship me” or not, becomes irrelevant if it is established that Jesus is God.” Verses exist that point to Jesus being God and of people worshiping him (e.g. Matthew 28:9 ” They came to him…. and worshiped him”) But the reality is, Eric, YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE. That last verse, I am sure you will say, is not a command to worship Jesus (along with some other objections Muslims can produce). I do not wish to insult people, but I wonder if I am wasting my time talking to you; one who , I feel, wants to run away from the truth. (FYI – Jesus did not stop them from worshiping him.)
I wish to address other interesting points mentioned, later, when I have more time (I am working) and if I feel it is worthwhile to do so.
Dear ‘truth’
I’m referring to your verses proving that indeed Jesus was WORSHIPED, thus confirmed his divinity.
New International Version
9Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and WORSHIPED him.
I’ve checked the word ‘worship’ here and I found it misleading. It’s was not really an act of worship, but an act of respect or adoration by bowing. In Latin it called adoraverunt and in French prosternèrent.
You can compare various translations below that show the word ‘worship’ is not DEFINITIVE.
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
9As they were going, Jesus met them. He said `Greetings!’ The women BOWED DOWN in front of him and put their hands on his feet.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 28:9&version=NIV;WE
Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
9and as they were going to tell to his disciples, then lo, Jesus met them, saying, `Hail!’ and they having come near, laid hold of his feet, and did BOW to him.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 28:9&version=NIV;YLT
Darby Translation (DARBY)
9And as they went to bring his disciples word, behold also, Jesus met them, saying, Hail! And they coming up took him by the feet, and did him HOMAGE.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 28:9&version=NIV;DARBY
Arabic Translation
?????? ????? ??????????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ????? ??????? ???????? ???? ????????????? ???????: «???????!» ?????????????? ????????????? ????????????? ??????????? ????
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 28:9&version=NIV;ALAB
See, how can changes in translations can be manipulated into different meaning and perception? ( and to be used out of context here like the word god, father, lord etc ) By the way, the claim that Christians have changed The New Testament is NOT a lame excuse by Muslims. It really happened!
Therefore, your argument by using that verses to prove the divinity of Jesus is void.
Syukri
Truth,
“I do not wish to insult people, but I wonder if I am wasting my time talking to you; one who , I feel, wants to run away from the truth.” – truth
I’m not running away from the truth buddy. I am seeking the truth, like Norman I guess. Are you giving up now buddy? Or is the topic too hot for you to handle? I understand that you have to work but then, who doesn’t? I’ve never demanded for a prompt reply so please take your time to reply alright. Any ways, I appreciate you taking your time to reply my comments even though you didn’t respond to my last 2 posts regarding the obvious differences of God and Jesus that can be found in the Bible.
“Verses exist that point to Jesus being God and of people worshiping him (e.g. Matthew 28:9 ” They came to him…. and worshiped him”) But the reality is, Eric, YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE.” – Truth
I saw that, truth, and along with it the other accounts from the other 3 Gospels relating to the same incident. You are right on your guess that I do not see that as a commandment. But the reality now is, truth, YOU ONLY SEE THE PART WHERE IT SAYS THESE TWO WORSHIPED HIM, YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE THE DISCREPANCIES OF THE REPORTING OF THE EVENT FOUND IN THE OTHER 3 GOSPELS (The caps are not shouts ya. Just to emphasize).
Let me give you just one obvious example here buddy. Here are the reporting of the same incident where the ladies went to the tomb by Matthew’s and Mark’s Gospels (I just need two to prove my point)
Matthew 28:1-2
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for AN ANGEL of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, ROLLED BACK THE STONE and sat on it. – Matthew 28:1-2
Mark 16:1-4
1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
4But when they looked up, THEY SAW THAT THE STONE, which was very large, HAD BEEN ROLLED AWAY. – Mark 16:1-4
The stone had already been rolled away when they reached the tomb??? No angels or what so ever???
That is just one of many many reports that is contradicting one another in just this one simple event. Like how you’ve mentioned earlier on regarding witnesses, if you bring these testimonies to our civil court as a defense material, your credibility of the account as a witness will be void my friend. With that in mind, how are we to believe that verse that you gave about both Marry worshiped Jesus is true? Conviction? I do not wish to insult people too but I think that’s what people would call, blind faith.
Please always be reminded too that my comments are in response to Pro Christ’s claim that the Bible is easy to read and clear. So is the Bible really that easy to read and clear now?
I’ll understand if you’ll take your leave here. I wont want to hold you up further now. Thanks for your time and attention buddy. Peace out.
Hi Syukri,
Good post there regarding the term worshiped that was being used
Hi all,
Example of Bible translation:
‘he kisses her’
because kissing is ASSUMED as an act of love, therefore, later it translated:
‘he loves her’
after 50 years or so, because love is always ASSOCIATED with marriage, the phrase is translated:
‘he marry her’
In Malay folk stories, ada seorang kolonial orang Putih pada zaman dahulu ingin menyeberang sungai. Lalu dikatakan padanya bahawa dalam sungai itu ada BUAYA ( crocidle ).
Oleh kerana dia datang dari bandar, dia tidak tahu apakah maksud buaya. Lalu dikatakan padanya buaya itu seperti BIAWAK ( monitor lizard ), tetapi lebih kecil.
Dia masih tidak faham apakah maksud biawak. Lalu dikatakan padanya biawak itu seperti CICAK ( lizard ).
Dia pun senang hati kerana dalam sungai hanya ada binatang kecil seperti cicak yang tidak berbahaya. Akhirnya dia pun menyeberang ke dalam sungai dan dibaham BUAYA.
Si Kitul
In Matthew 28:9 case, it started when some people bowed to Jesus, later it changed as paying homage, and later to suit Christian hidden agenda, it changed to worship. What a mischievous deception!
Allah clearly mentioned this phenomenon:
Al Quran2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:”This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
Allah also commented some stubborn disbeliever attitude:
Al Quran 2:145 Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy direction; nor art thou going to follow their direction; nor indeed will they follow each other’s direction.( eg: Catholic vs Protestant etc ) If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.
Hi…
Thanks to all Christ believers for your comments. God bless you all. For all of our so called smart and intelligent friends that is still arguing with all your wiki-wiki and wiki ( which tells you what it is but never tell you what it was ) about the Bible and the truth and since that you really confident to what you believed, I want to ask you this. What on earth you do to go to heaven? Anyone gives you any assurance yet? Do you think by doing all good things will show that you died without any sins? Who forgives your sins than? Will you be in heaven if you die ? If you think so, who tells you that? Did God directly talk to you or did Quran mentioning about your personal salvation? Or you just hope for it? Go ahead with all your brilliants ideas and arguements and be a winner in your human knowledge. Think hard my friend as you wish from millions and millions of knowledges. Afterall, what the use of knowledge without salvation. It’s ok if I’am not as smart as you guy’s. I don’t need it. I just want to go to heaven and I know Jesus has promised me and gives me the assurance. But remember my friend that Judgement Day can be anytime in our life. As from many thoughts and knowledges, personally I choosed only one. That is to believe and recieve love and salvation in Jesus, my King, my Friend, my Lord and my Savior. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.
God loves and bless all of you. Halleluyah!
Hi Christ believer,
You guys seems to be shy with your names. Whats up with the red Indian style kind of names you have there? If you do not want to use your real names well at least put a Robert, Brad, Keannu or something like that dudes. At least it sounds more human and personal. Otherwise, I might consider changing mine to Dances with Wolves just to fit in alright.
“It’s ok if I’am not as smart as you guy’s. I don’t need it. I just want to go to heaven…” – Christ believer
Christ believer, you sure sound like some one who is desperately looking for salvation at all cost. And I hope you will look for it well enough with your “so called smart and intelligent” approach too.
To begin things, let me talk about your wiki-wiki and wiki. If you have not known, wikipedia is a website that holds a higher level of authority and reliability as compared to your beloved http://www.answering-islam.org which is of course is heavily biased when it comes to searching for reference. Also compared to http://www.answering-islam.org, wiki’s contents are full of articles coming from NON-BIASED SOURCES and that is why it is prefered. I mean, we could have used sites such as http://www.answering-christianity.com as our sources if we wanted to but that wont count for you guys, wont you agree? Read wikipedia’s publishing guideline here to understand further about their neutrality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
Besides, if it isn’t reliable, how else can you explain for one of your beloved brethrens to have used it as his source of reference when talking about Quran only Muslims among other things that he has used it for?
Now for your questions. They sure sound like it comes from another smart and intelligent person. No wait, it sounds more like it came from a “smart and intelligent” IGNORANT person. Please don’t be like Pro Christ. Asking without searching first. It’ll just show how “smart and intelligent” you are.
If you are just too lazy to search for it and read, go watch this instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNFAM2dQ-sI
That my friend, comes from a former believing Christian who embraced Islam. Some one who has seen the truth through logic. And not blind faith.
Hope that answers you bro. Thanks for dropping a comment here and peace to you
To Eric
You wrote,
“Please always be reminded too that my comments are in response to Pro Christ’s claim that the Bible is easy to read and clear.” I did not address this statement as I feel that if Pro Christ said it, then he should support his statement. I have heard that “one holy” book is easier to read than another. That is one point I have avoided so far. The reason being: even if one holy book is easier to read, it does not mean that that “holy book” is God’s word.
To your suggestion that there is a contradiction in the account of the Risng of Jesus from the dead on Easter Sunday that you quoted :”Matthew 28:1-2
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for AN ANGEL of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, ROLLED BACK THE STONE and sat on it. – Matthew 28:1-2
Mark 16:1-4
1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
4But when they looked up, THEY SAW THAT THE STONE, which was very large, HAD BEEN ROLLED AWAY. – Mark 16:1-4
The stone had already been rolled away when they reached the tomb??? No angels or what so ever???”
My question to you is :WHERE IS THE CONTRADICTION?1) Matthew 28:1-2 does NOT say that the women saw the angel move the stone. When they arrived at the tomb, the stone had already been removed. As to your statement:”No angels or what so ever???” – “Matthew 28:5” The angel said to the women..”, Mark 16:5 “As they entered the tomb, a young man dressed in a white robe…” (Eric, this is your what so ever”. ). Luke 24:4” Suddenly, two men in clothes that gleamed like lightnning.” – The presence of angels (describe in different ways). I suggest to you, Eric, that you are looking for contradictions here, where there are none. Perhaps you (and Muslims) should read the Bible looking for truth rather than to find fault.
Truth, thanks for your reply,
“WHERE IS THE CONTRADICTION?” – Truth
These are contradictions, buddy. You just chose not to see them instead. Besides, I never looked up for them. They are just there waiting. Its is looking for the truth that we found faults along the way.
“Matthew 28:1-2 does NOT say that the women saw the angel move the stone” – Truth
Well done. Very good. Very good. So, what you are saying is that since Matthew 28:1-2 does NOT say that the women saw the angel moved the stone thus the women did not see the angel moving the stone then. If you know how to apply that logic there, why don’t you apply that same logic that you have onto the Bible where it does NOT say and commanded that we are to worship Jesus? This very same logic of yours, my friend, is also telling us that If the Bible does not tell us to worship Jesus we are then NOT to worship Jesus, period.
I knew you would come up with that old and worn out polemic reason that the Gospels gave non contradicting accounts for they need to be pieced up together to form “The Big Picture”. Just how many pieces must we combine in order to see “The Big Picture” before we finally get ourselves confused? The word of God must be stated very clearly to avoid confusion my friend. Your Bible said it too:
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” – 1 Corinthians 14:33
Thanks for reading the whole comment buddy.
To Eric
In your attempt to show that the Bible contradicts itself, you have made a mistake by giving an example that shows clearly your biased and faulty thinking. I know that there are “difficult to understand” problem passages in the Bible; but the example you gave is not a problem to me. You even wrote in CAPITALS-” …..AN ANGEL of the Lord …, going to the tomb, ROLLED BACK THE STONE and sat on it. “– Matthew 28:1-2…and…Mark 16:4“But when they looked up, THEY SAW THAT THE STONE, which was very large, HAD BEEN ROLLED AWAY. “– from Mark 16:1-4. – to highlight what you see as a contradiction; that is to suggest that in one passage the women saw the angel move the stone. Whereas in the other passage, the stone had already been removed.
I do not think I misunderstand what you were tryng to say because you also said:”The stone had already been rolled away when they reached the tomb???” (Highlighting this fact with 3 question marks).
Let me point out to you “THERE WAS a violent earthquake, for angel of the Lord came down from heaven …… – Matthew 28:1-2 “THERE WAS ” meaning “it happened”. It does not say that it happened in front of the women. So there is no contradiction.
Are you mistaken, or are you trying to create a contradiction (and cause confusion)? . FYI – My God is not a God of confusion ,(1 Corinthians 14:33).
Perhaps what you have done, Eric, is provide a good and clear example of the faulty way Muslims read the Bible.
to Amin,
You said,”Could you just solve this tiny little equation please and I know you’ve understood: 1 1 1 = ?.”
Your question refers to the the Christian belief referred to as “the Trinity”. This belief, as I see it, is among the more difficult to explain. I could try here, but there are people who are more capable than me in this area. (My job is not in a church). You could try “Answering Islam”. I chose to respond to you to make a comment.
A person standing outside of Christianity and Islam may look at Christianity and think – “These odd people who believe in these nonsensical ideas about three gods but will not admit that it is actually three gods.” And about Islam he may think, “They believe in a message supposedly from God through an angel that nobody else saw or heard to only one man and we are all supposed to believe it.” What is you answer to such a person?
Asking me to explain the Holy Trinity is asking the material to explain the Immaterial.(I heard one interesting example though). There is a danger of falling into error. There is enough indication of the idea of Trinity in the Bible for me to have faith that the idea is true. My faith is not blind. Is yours blind?
As I mentioned earlier,”a message supposedly from God through an angel that nobody else saw or heard to only one man and we are all supposed to believe it.” Let me add, “No miracles”. Can you explain on what basis you believe the Quran? So many (Sukri, Eric, Salim.. etc) comment on the Bible and Christian belief. But I do not remember seeing anyone try to prove the statement about the Quran as unreasonable. Is the statement reasonable, Amin?
“In your attempt to show that the Bible contradicts itself” -Truth
In my attempt? I don’t have to attempt anything “truth” nor do I need to create a contradiction. I’ve made no mistake as it’s there for all to see unless you chose not to. My examples aren’t biased for they are logical. And the only good and clear example that I have provided here is how the faulty way the Christians read the Bible.
Ok, lets don’t just stop at 28:1-2 shall we. Move on a little further. In fact let’s move all the way to cover Matthew 28.
Since you were persistent in pointing out that:
“Matthew 28:1-2 does NOT say that the women saw the angel move the stone” – Truth
AND
““THERE WAS a violent earthquake, for angel of the Lord came down from heaven …… – Matthew 28:1-2 “THERE WAS ” meaning “it happened”. It does not say that it happened in front of the women.” – Truth
Tell me then, “truth”, where in Matthew 28 then did it mention that the women actually went inside the tomb? Show me please. If you can’t, then FYI, it did not mention anything about the women going inside the tomb anywhere in Matthew 28 at all. If it did, it should have looked something like this found in Mark 16:5 and Mark 16:8
Mark 16:5
“As THEY ENTERED THE TOMB, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe…” – Mark 16:5
Mark 16:8
“Trembling and bewildered, the women WENT OUT and fled FROM THE TOMB…” – Mark 16:8
So, in accordance to your logic in regards to the women not seeing the angel moved the stone as it was not mentioned in Matthew 28 this whole of Matthew 28 is in fact saying that the women did not enter the tomb at all (That is already one contradiction with Mark 16 report, my friend). And if they did not enter the tomb, they were then outside the tomb.
Read Matthew 28:2-5
“2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified” – Matthew 28:2-5
That verse 5 came immediately after the verse where the guards were being so afraid and was shaken at verse 4. If that event of the rolling of the stone was not witnessed by the women, why then in verse 5 it tells us that the angel bothered to tell the women on not to be afraid after knowing that the guards were shaken to near death and not telling us that the women went into the tomb?
If you still tell me that there is no contradiction in my points at all after what I have presented to you, than I guess you are just trying to tell me that Matthew’s author was just plain lazy to write in detail. Because afterall, your God is not a God of confusion right?
I hope you read this comment of mine fully. I have a feeling that you didn’t with my previous ones because you seemed to ignore some of my arguments. But in anyways, thanks again buddy for your views. Even though I don’t agree with them, I really appreciate that.
Peace to you bro.
To Eric
Thank you for your reply. I wish to leave the issue standing as it is with yours as the last comment on this topic. Enough has been said by you and I. Whether you or I have made a mistake “it’s there for all to see” as you have correctly said. Peace to you too. Brother.
Pro Christ,
If you are still here buddy…
“…Bible is easy to read and clear” – Pro Christ.
“I know that there are “difficult to understand” problem passages in the Bible…” – truth and light from the Son
I guess you don’t have to convince me anymore about whether the Bible is easy to read and clear or not. Your brethren in Christ has just helped you answer it dude.
Take care there buddy
Truth,
Well said bro. And let there be no hard feelings ya. Its just clashes of opinions that we are engaged in. Nothing personal. Peace again to you too bro
salam to all,
I laughed when I read comment from Eric with his witty remark, like red indian stuff etc. I’ve never expected that religious discussion can be funny and lively. I’ve also impressed with Eric knowledge of Christianity. Where do you study, Eric? I also appreciate ‘truth’ point of view of Islam like how we are supposed to believe in one person who claimed he received revelation through angel etc in which I will response later with Quran and hadist things. InsyaAllah.
I hope we can discuss in a civil manner, unlike Hamzah before, with his unmindful personal insult to Prophet Muhammad that in the end he himself has to close his post in an embarrassing way.
My Quranic recitation everyday has become better since I can see its context clearly now.
Last comment from Eric is in line with Quranic teaching:
29:46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury *): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”
*like Hamzah
Islamic universal call:
3:64 Say: “O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.” If then they turn back, say ye: “Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah’s Will).
Mind of evangelist:
3:69 It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!
The attitude of Christian with regard to Bible:
3:71 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?
Quranic plea to Christian:
3:98 Say: “O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?”
3:99 Say: “O ye People of the Book! Why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, Seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah’s Covenant)? but Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do.”
Promise of Allah to Muslim:
4:123 Not your desires, nor those of the People of the Book (can prevail): whoever works evil, will be requited accordingly. Nor will he find, besides Allah, any protector or helper.
Objective Quranic call to Christian:
4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
5:15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book*, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-
* and changed ( like bow = respect = worship case in Matthew 28: 9 )
Allah’s warning:
5:77 Say: “O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.
Can you see how precise the context of Quran with our situation/ discussion?
Therefore, This WORD can not come from human. It’s from Allah, the All Knowing.
Syukri
To Truth,
before I answer your question about Quran and hadits, and about one person claiming he received revelation ( how we are supposed to believe him ) , I would like to clarify first: you said ‘no miracle’. What do you mean? Do you mean that Prophet Muhammad show no miracle, unlike Jesus?
Syukri
Hi…
It’s seems that you guys are doing really hard to understand the Bible. Just to let us see if the Bible, especially the one that our friend Eric mentioned does’nt matched. I still don’t know why we still don’t believe it. I see nothing different. In fact it’s a beutiful story which is matched from every verses that we read from both the book of Matthew and Mark.
Let’s put this two books and story into one.
MATTHEW 28:1 NOW AFTER the Sabbath, near dawn of the first day of the week, Mary of Magdalene and the other Mary went to take a look at the tomb. ( But before they go…)
MARK 16:1 They together with Salome purchased sweet-smelling spices, so that they might go and anoint [Jesus' body]. (2) And very early on the first day of the week they came to the tomb; [by then] the sun had risen. (3) And they said to one another, Who will roll back the stone for us out of [the groove across the floor at] the door of the tomb? ( By their own strength, there’s no way they will be able to remove the stone.)
MATTHEW 28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled the boulder back and sat upon it. (3) His appearance was like lightning, and his garments as white as snow. (4) And those keeping guard were so frightened at the sight of him that they were agitated and they trembled and became like dead men.
MARK 16:4 And when they [both Mary's] looked up, they [distinctly] saw that the stone was already rolled back, for it was very large.
MATTHEW 28:5 But the angel said to the women, Do not be alarmed and frightened, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, Who was crucified. (6) He is not here; He has risen, as He said [He would do]. Come, see the place where He lay. [ As they go in, the angel has been waiting for them inside the tomb).
MARK 16:5 And going into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting [there] on the right [side], clothed in a [ long, stately, sweeping] robe of white, and they were utterly amazed and struck with terror. (6) And he said to them, Do not be amazed and terrified; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, Who was crucified. He has risen; He is not here. See the place where they laid Him. 7) But be going; tell the disciples and Peter, He goes before you into Galilee; you will see Him there, [just] as He told you.
I never wanted to proof that I am smart. I am just ordinary people. But this is the perfect matching facts from two different books. Lets all know that the books of the Bible not done like photostates, rather, it’s has been written by different person but with the perfect combinations. Perfect matches. So, it’s up to you to believe. God’s love us all.
To Christ Believer,
You said’ Lets all know that the books of the Bible not done like photostates, rather, it’s has been written by different person but with the perfect combinations. Perfect matches.’
1.Could you please comment about different translations of Matthew 28:9 and later lead to different understanding? ( bowing become adoration, then become worship, and the word worship is unscrupulously used to justify divinity of Jesus )?
2.Who are those different author exactly?
3. How do you decide canonical or apocrypha Bible?
4. Why Christians differ in their canonical if Bible is with ‘perfect combination and matches’?
5. In your personal opinion, what defines BIBLE?
Syukri
To Sukri
You ask”you said ‘no miracle’. What do you mean? Do you mean that Prophet Muhammad show no miracle, unlike Jesus?”.
Ask any Christian whether Jesus did miracles and the answer is a clear “Yes”.(Even Muslims will agree.) Ask a Muslim, whether Prophet Muhammad did miracles and the answer is less clear from Muslims. One Muslim who was trying to prove to me that Prophet Muhammad could do miracles like Moses (He was talking about Muhammad being the Prophet predicted in Deuteronomy 18:18 ) sent me this collection.”# Splitting of the Moon (Volume 6, Book 60, Number 388)
# Food Multiplication (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 780)
# Water Multiplication (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 779 & 777; Volume 1, Book 7, Number 340; )
# Supplication for Rain (Volume 8, Book 73, Number 115)
# Lights to guide Companions (Volume 1, Book 8, Number 454)
# Crying of the stem of the Date-palm Tree (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 783)
# Glorification of Allah by the Prophet’s meals (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 779)
# The explusion of a Christian liar’s corpse by the Earth (Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814)
# The Prophet’s Night Journey to Jerusalem and Ascent to the Heavens (Volume 5, Book 58, Number 228; Volume 4, Book 54, Number 462; Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227)
# healing of ill and wounded people
# The Prophet’s protection as a miracle”
But if this are from the Hadith, even Muslims may have trouble accepting them ( Thats why there are Quran- only Muslims, I think.). Why should I accept them (except through blind faith.) That is why I say “No miracles.”
To truth,
I laugh when you say why should you accept them / Islam ( except through blind faith) whereas your faith is more confusing and chaotic. I will explain Quran hadith things on this weekend. Very good joke indeed, and no one yet dare to comment my comparison between Quran and Bible dated August 31 and deceptive translation of Matthew 28: 9 dated 8 Sep.
Your answer that YES Jesus indeed show miracle is what I actually want you to say. That mean Jesus is a HUMAN BEING. Because if he is god, every unusual thing done by him is natural for god, not miracle. God created earth and heaven, gives life and death and wonderful thing and nobody say that its a miracle. That’s god work.
And you compare Jesus to Muhammad, a human being! Why don’t you compare Jesus with Allah, muslim god?
That show that subconciously you admit that Jesus is only human, not god, but for some reason ( blind faith most probably ) you chose to ignore this fact.
Pity you.
Syukri
I laugh when you say why should you accept them / Islam ( except through blind faith) whereas your faith is more confusing and chaotic. I will explain Quran hadith things on this weekend. Very good joke indeed, and no one yet dare to comment my comparison between Quran and Bible dated August 31 and deceptive translation of Matthew 28: 9 dated 8 Sep.
Your answer that YES Jesus indeed show miracle is what I actually want you to say. That means Jesus is a HUMAN BEING. Because if he is god, every unusual thing done by him is natural for god, not miracle. God created earth and heaven, gives life and death and wonderful thing and nobody say that its a miracle. That’s god work. God is doing it everyday.
And you compare Jesus to Muhammad, a human being! Why don\’t you compare Jesus with Allah, Muslim god?
That show that subconsciously you admit that Jesus is only human, not god, but for some reason ( blind faith most probably ) you chose to ignore this fact.
Pity you.
Syukri
To Syukri
You say to ‘Christ Believer” -”Could you please comment about different translations of Matthew 28:9 and later lead to different understanding? ( bowing become adoration, then become worship, and the word worship is unscrupulously used to justify divinity of Jesus )?” – Syukri
My response, if you care to consider is this:- I (a non- scholar of the Bible) quoted a verse of only one English TRANSLATION of the Bible(NIV version) that was made after the year 1970.
For the sake of discussion, let us assume that there was an error in the translation. For your information, the worship of Jesus DID NOT begin after 1970. The major beliefs of main-stream Christianity (the Trinity, The death of Jesus on the cross for the sins of the world, his Rising from the dead, etc…) were already established by the time of the appearance of Islam around the year 600 A.D.(roughly) and even before that. Even the Quran indicates that – “Say not “Trinity” from 4:171 (from Syukri’s comment.). I do not believe that core Christian beliefs arose from ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS or other translations for that matter. I am not even sure that they arose from the Greek (Greek being the original language.) But would it not be more logical to assume that the Greek (the original language) is the source of Christian beliefs rather than any translation. So I find your statement -”different translations of Matthew 28:9 and later lead to different understanding? ( bowing become adoration, then become worship, and the word worship is unscrupulously used to justify divinity of Jesus )?” – Syukri -, I find your statement nonsensical and mischievous.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the core Christian ideas are found in the Greek manuscripts ( before they were translated to English). There are experts on the Greek language as you know, I am sure.
Hi Syukri,
Likewise here bro. You’ve impressed me too. I really appreciate that you appreciate there
As for my studies, they are all secular and there was a Bible studies subject in my former school before and I have friends in one of those “Cell Groups” thingy, so I guess thats where the Christian background came from. Take care there bro and peace to you now.
Hi Christ believer,
“It’s seems that you guys are doing really hard to understand the Bible.” – Christ believer
“Let’s put this two books and story into one.” – Christ believer
Ah I see, combining two books to read just one simple story. Now that doesnt seem so hard doesnt it? So, let me get this right, “ordinary” people like you can read one whole story only when several books are combined then? Am I right to say that? I’m not sure about you buddy, but my idea of an easy book for ordinary people to read will be where one just need to read it from left to right at one go and thats it. Just ONE BOOK. Point will be understood and the whole story ends. No flipping back and forth of the pages to get the whole story.
“…this is the perfect matching facts from two different books” – Christ believer
Okay…lets talk about these facts now. Oh wait, lets not complicate things. We’ll talk about just one “FACT” now shall we? Lets read here:
Matthew 27:51-53
“51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” – Matthew 27:51-53
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this “FACT” was recorded in Matthew only. I guess Mark, Luke and John were just too shocked to ever remembered to note this significant event down. No other gospels besides Matthew recorded any earthquake or resurrection of dead. Right?
Ok, lets take it that we “selectively” chose Matthew for this “FACT” to ever happen. This is where I have a problem now buddy, I wanted to believe it but too many odds are just against me. I’ve tried to search all over for this monumental event but I just can’t find it in secular historical records. No earthquake and ESPECIALLY no massive influx of formerly DEAD PEOPLE ROSE FROM THE DEAD is ever mentioned in any secular historical records anywhere, which is strange given how monumental such an event would be. In case you do not know what a monumental event is, I’ll give you an example. One REAL ancient monumental event that was ever recorded would be, Pompeii. Are you with me so far buddy?
So, my friend, maybe “ordinary” people like you can help me out with this. Could you please provide me with any SECULAR HISTORICAL RECORD of the event I have just mentioned, especially about the dead people rose from the dead, to just help me convinced more about the events in the Gospels being real. Thanks buddy and peace to you now.
Hello again Truth
I am not trying to start things with you but…
“I AM NOT even SURE that they arose from the Greek (Greek being the original language.).” – Truth
“But would it not be more logical TO ASSUME that the Greek (the original language) is the source of Christian beliefs rather than any translation.” -Truth
Don’t assume when you are not sure buddy, this is suppose to be the Word of God we are talking about here. Be more certain and concrete with proof. For you should know very well, if your assumptions are wrong and we believed you, ASSUME will only means that…it’ll make an ASS out of yoU and ME bro. Just my two cents
To Truth,
One good thing about this discussion, even if I can’t convince anybody, at least it convinces me about the truthfulness of Islam and falsehood of other faith because it makes me study and think.
About the translation of Bible, I just want to show to the readers the desperation of Trinitarian to justify their faith at whatever cost, even to deceptively change the original meaning.
The belief of Trinity before 1970 does not mean that that belief is definitive and correct, and facts from Quran and the existence of non-trinitarian denominations in Christianity reaffirmed that.
I brought translation that I understand i;e English, Latin, French and Arabic to show that the transliterate word is ‘bowing’, not worship to show Bible inconsistency in translation thus leading to confusion and deception. I don’t read Greek though.
For argument sake, let’s say that Greek is the original language of Bible ( even though it is not final and still debated )The issue is, if I bring you the proof in Greek that support my argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping, are you going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
Say yes or no because I don’t want to waste my time researching to argue with someone who has no clear stand and objective judgment.
Syukri
To Truth
laughed hard when you say why should you accept them / Islam ( except through blind faith) whereas your faith is more confusing and chaotic. I will explain Quran hadith things today or tomorrow. Very good joke indeed, and no one yet dare to comment my comparison between Quran and Bible dated August 31.
So you brought yourself proof from hadith that affirmed Muhammad miracles so that before I bring it, then argue hadith legitimacy. Very smart.
To my question whether Jesus show miracle, your answer that ‘YES, Jesus indeed show miracle’ is what I actually want you to say. My point is, that mean Jesus is a HUMAN BEING. Because if he is god, every unusual thing done by him is natural for god, not miracle. God, Elohim or Allah created earth and heaven, gives life and death and wonderful thing and nobody say that its a miracle. That’s god trait.
And you compare Jesus to Muhammad, a human being! Why don’t you compare Jesus with Allah, Muslim god?
That show that subconsciously you admit that Jesus is only regular human bestowed with miracle, and not a god, but for some reason ( blind faith most probably ) you chose to ignore this fact.
Pity you.
Syukri
Rephrase:So you brought yourself proof from hadith that affirmed Muhammad miracles before I bring it, then you argue hadith legitimacy in the light of Quran only movement in Islam, so that I can’t use proof from hadith about the miracle of Muhammad. Very smart.
Syukri
To Eric
Thanks for the info bro. What a perfect combination. My studies is all religion and arabic ( that explain my smattering English
). My Quran recitation never be the same as before because I can see the perspectives of its content clearly now. Alhamdulillah.
I recommend all readers to read Quran and try to understand it context slowly, willingly and joyfully. InsyaAllah. Then you will appreciate your faith deeply.
17:9 Verily this Qur’an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;
6:125 Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
Syukri
Hi Syukri,
It was my pleasure bro
This is what its called, God’s will. May the truth prevails. Peace to you bro and also to all now.
To Eric
Thanks for your words of caution regarding my writing on Sept. 12 2009, 4am.
My focus then was, firstly, to show that core Christian beliefs are found in the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament before any English translation was made; which means the idea or suggestion that “Core Christian beliefs arose from wrong translations” is wrong.(Please also consider this as a reply to ‘Si Kitul – Sept 8, 4:38pm -Example of Bible translation.)
It was not my intention to say from where the Core Christian beliefs came but rather to show from where they did not come. I expressed this in the way that I thought best at the time and I hope all readers get the point.(I was not trying to teach that Core Christian beliefs came from the Greek manuscripts but to show that the beliefs are present there.) Thanks again for your comments.
Hi Truth,
To err is human, to forgive divine. And thank you for considering my comments bro
To Sukri
You say
“For argument sake, let’s say that Greek is the original language of Bible …The issue is, if I bring you the proof in Greek that support my argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping, are you going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
Say YES OR NO because I don’t want to waste my time researching to argue with someone who has no clear stand and OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT.” – Sukri Sept 12, 11.33 am. (CAPITALS mine for clarity)
Two thoughts occurred to me as I saw the words YES OR NO and the words OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT. With limited time, I wish to share with you my thoughts on the words OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT first.
I cannot stop you from believing I have no OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT if that is what you want to believe. (OBJECTIVE means “without bias” – says dictionary). I could say that of you, and we both can get into a fruitless exchange of insults. That is not my style.
You are aware, I hope, that objective judgement is what I appeal to, to try to get people to believe in the Bible. I cannot tell people to believe in the Bible as the word of God BECAUSE the Bible refers to itself as the word of God.(Along the thinking of John5:31 and Deutoronomy 19:15) . People would think I am not objective. That is why I present the different New Testament(NT) books as documents of multiple witnesses.(This is not my original idea). Some NT books (Letters of Paul, Peter, James) are claimed to have been written by the writers themselves in the the books. (1 Peter 1:1 James 1:1).
In comparison, I feel a Muslim cannot apply the same method if a Muslim wanted to get someone to believe in the Quran. The Quran has only Muhammmad witnessing to himself being a prophet.(Sukri, you may present the common view about Muhammad clearly being the writer of the Quran as a strength, as you did in August 31, but actually it can be seen as a weakness.)
If an inquirer were to ask me about Christianity and Islam, I would point to the multiple witnesses of the New Testament against the onely one witness of the Quran. Also the undeniable miracles of Jesus against the questionable miracles of Muhammad that even the Muslims themselves have doubts about and have trouble proving.
You say that ” {‘truth’s} faith is more confusing and chaotic” (sept 12 — 11:44am) but I have been able to say,at least,( since Sept 7)why I believe in the Bible. I have been waiting for your (or anyone’s) reply on why I should believe the Quran. Is the answer ” confusing and chaotic” that you cannot say it simply in a few words. (Note: Some people say bible is easier to read: That does not make it true. Christianity may be more confusing; that does not make it false.). An objective person will read what I have written an say that there is some truth there. Something for (hopefully) objective persons to think about.
Salam to all,
Pro Christ said “Quran is weak because it needs hadith to explain it’. Beside, there is Quran only Muslim, said Truth. This argument is used by Christian to disqualify integrity of Quran and subsequently, Islam. My answer is as below:
1.Firstly, In the Quranic view, the using of hadith ( saying of Prophet Muhammad ) to explain the general word of Quran is approved and legitimate.
6:64 And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst MAKE CLEAR to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.
16:44 (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Scriptures; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest EXPLAIN CLEARLY to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
2. The combination of Quran and hadith is not weakness, but completion and perfection. To put it into perspective, Quran is like “ CONSTITUTION”. It’s a set of general rules that applies to anyone at any place and anytime. But, can constitution works itself or interpreted by anyone? Of course not, because it will lead to million interpretation and disunity. That’s why constitution is interpreted by our standard practice by executive, legislature and the judiciary. Does that relationship show that constitution is not perfect because it need to be explained and decided by second party? No. Therefore, Quran Hadith relationship is practical and valid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution
3. Other example of this nature of this relationship is like medical PRESCRIPTION. When doctor gives a prescription, it will be written using symbol that cannot be understood by patient, and therefore will be interpreted by pharmacist. It NEVER means that prescription is not perfect because it need a pharmacist to translate it. Or the doctor is weak because he needs pharmacist to interpret his prescription. ( Or can you understand symbols in prescription naturally? ). Quran is like prescription, and Muhammad is like a pharmacist. What’s wrong with this relationship? It’s reciprocal, not defective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_prescription
In short, Quran contains divine general line and Prophet Muhamad explain and put it into the perspective of human live in detail ( in all everyday life ). Firstly recorded in oral tradition and later compiled.
4. This relationship is not exclusive to Islam alone. For the sake of comparison, Christianity also have what is called ‘ PRIMA SCRIPTURA’. Wikipedia says: Implicitly, this view acknowledges that, besides canonical scripture, there are OTHER GUIDES for what a believer should believe, and how he should live, such as the created order, traditions, charismatic gifts, mystical insight, angelic visitations, conscience, common sense, the views of experts, the spirit of the times or something else. Prima scriptura suggests that ways of knowing or understanding God and his will, that do not originate from canonized scripture, are in a second place, perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_scriptura
Unlike Christianity, Islamic ‘prima scriptura’ i.e. hadith, or saying of the prophet is more centralized and certain because it endorsed by Allah himself. Allah said:
53:3 and neither does he ( Muhammad ) speak out of his own desire but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired.
• 69:44 And if he ( Muhammad ) had invented false sayings concerning Us, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:
Are the 1.created order, 2.traditions, 3.charismatic gifts, 4.mystical insight, 5.angelic visitations, 6.conscience, 7.common sense, 8.the views of experts, 9.the spirit of the times or 10.something else (??? ) in Christianity based on Jesus or God endorsement? Then, isn’t it better to check out your chaotic prima scriptura before criticizing the well centralized hadith my friend?
5. With regard to Quran only Muslim, for your information, they only form a very tiny dot in Muslim society and is not a legitimate group endorsed by mainstream Muslim. They don’t even enjoy co equal existence like Sunni-Shiite. Their integrity is highly questionable especially when their leader claimed that he was a god messenger apart from Prophet Muhammad, apparently against Quran it itself! ( Muhammad is the seal of the prophet , Quran 33:40 )
Wikipedia says about their leader: He ( Khalifa ) founded the religious group called United Submitters International (USI), a group which considers itself to be the true Islam, but prefers not to use the terms “Muslim” or “Islam,” instead using the English equivalents of the Arabic: “Submitter” or “Submission.” [1]
Submitters believe Khalifa was a messenger of God and refer to him as God’s messenger of the covenant as prophesied in the Quran and Bible, after which today’s “corrupted” religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam, will simply die out, and “Submission” will prevail.
His credibility and integrity are also doubted. Wiki says: In October, 1979, Khalifa was accused of sexual assault, sexual abuse, and sexual contact with a minor. The accuser, a 16-year-old-girl, testified at a hearing that Khalifa sexually molested her while recruiting her for research on the human aura. There was no evidence of intercourse found when the girl was examined at a local hospital. Justice of the Peace James P. West ruled there was probable cause to hold Khalifa for trial on the charges.[5]
Therefore the claim of this group is VOID and can’t be taken into consideration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa
6. Citing the existence of this tiny dissent group in Islam to disqualify Quran hadith relationship is like citing Klu Klux Klan (Christian white supremacist) to prove that Christianity is a racist religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
( Just for further reading, being a Malay, what do you think about Christian Identity which emphasize on colour?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
7. Unlike bible that relies mostly on unknown authors, hadith collection are painstakingly checked and verified and went through critical inspection using highly sophisticated science to maintain its authenticity through chain of narrator. Although the science not wholly in line in modern scientific methodology of verification, it is far more superior than Bible methodology in verifying canonical and apocrypha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_hadith
8. Quran hadith relationship is well defined and not overlapping like Bible ( word of God, word of Jesus, word of unknown and unendorsed author, canon, apocrypha etc) . Quran is divine and can be read during solat/ prayer, hadith is not and can’t be read during prayer.
Thank you
Syukri
to Syukri
You say:”..no one yet dare to comment my comparison between Quran and Bible dated August 31.” – Syukri 12 sept 2009 – 11:44 am. This is my reply.
When I read, your writing then, I thought you were just stating some facts.(e.g. Point 5. “Quran can be memorized wholly. There is million of Muslim who memorizes Quran all over the world.”- Syukri). I did not take those statements as an attempt by you to show that the Quran is superior to the Bible. I was not sure of your use of the word “incomparable “. But since you now say “..no one yet dare to comment ..”, I think I am not wrong to see those statements as a challenge.
To you first statement: ” Even though some people doubt that Quran is the word of God, but at least they all agree that it AUTHORED BY MUHAMMAD. The origin of Quran therefore is clearer and more certain than Bible. Unlike Quran, Bible is … NOT AUTHORED BY JESUS himself, but mostly penned by UNKNOWN authors.” – Syukri. (CAPITALS mine). I have already mentioned this before. What you present as a strength,that is: Muhammad (supposedly) wrote the Quran, can be seen as a weakness.”.John 5:31 (NIV)” If I (Jesus)testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.” That is the problem with Muhammad and the Quran. He is his own witness (No one else saw or heard the angel). No other witnesses. Bearing in mind Jesus’ own words, I must reject the Quran because Muhammad testify about himself(being “an apostle” of God). Even the law courts want more witnesses….(etc)” -’ truth..’sept 7, 12:18am.
To your second statement: “2. No one argues that Quran was revealed in Arabic, while the original language of Bible is still debated among scholars ( Aramaic, koine Greek, Hebrew ).”
Here I have no idea as to what you are trying to say. I have heard that the Bible was written in Hebrew(for Old Testament) and Greek(for New Testament) with some Aramaic quotations. Would you like to explain? In what way is the Quran superior because it was (supposedly) revealed in only one language?
To your third statement:”3. Under Caliph Uthman, Quran with various Arabic DIALECTS is united with Quraish Arabic DIALECT due to expansion of Islam to non-Arab. This lead to united VERSION of Quran to all Muslim then until now. Quran read in Singapore is the same with Quran read in Africa, ….” – Syukri. Again I do not see the point you are tryng to make to prove that the Quran is superior. You have caused questions to appear in my mind though.You say”This lead to united VERSION of Quran “- Syukri. Is this the Caliph Uthman VERSION of the Quran (like King James Version of the Bible). Was the sayings of the Quran present in different Arabic DIALECTS (orally transmitted,written on leaf and stone or whatever), and later compiled (and TRANSLATED because that is what DIALECTS suggest) and STANDARDIZED(read as EDITED). This would make the Quran no different from the Bible in some ways. I have read such claims about the books of the Bible being edited. Certainly there are Muslims who would say that Allah has miraculously preserved his original message to Muhammad ( through all the compilation related activities) but that is NOT an OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT ( Others may say that of Christians and the Bible as well, I know).
to be continued….
To Sukri
You say”For argument sake, let’s say that Greek is the original language of Bible …..The issue is, if I bring you the proof in Greek that support my argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping, are you going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
Say yes or no because I don’t want to waste my time researching to argue with someone who has no clear stand… ” – Sukri, Sept 12, 11:33 am.
The answer is NO and that is my clear stand. The answer should be obvious to all. “if I(Sukri) bring you(‘truth’) the proof in Greek that support my(Sukri) argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping,” the ONLY thing you proof, Sukri, is that the people at NIV made a mistake in the TRANSLATION.” A mistake in the TRANSLATION indicates a mistake made by the TRANSLATOR, not a flaw at its source (the New Testament in Greek -its original language).(Note: Your example is flawed because your thinking is flawed.) Why is that NOT CLEAR to you? (Besides, there are different English translations of the Quran. I will not say that the Quran is flawed because the translation contains mistakes.
You asked a stupid question.
To Syukri
……….continued from Sept, 14, 6.43pm
continuation of point no.3…”UNLIKE QURAN, Bible underwent INSPECTION and amendment throughout history to DETERMINE whether it is CANON ( recognized )..” – Syukri.
My reply to that is the Quran was compiled (like the Bible). Its compilation was completed in the reign of Caliph Uthman. It is a matter of faith for Muslims to believe that every thing that appears in the Quran is Allah’s revelation. I will not try to argue with that belief here (because Christians have that type of thinking about the Bible). However I wish to discuss one observation. It is regarding the Catholic and Protestant Bible.
You pointed correctly that the Protestant Bible has 66 books whereas the Catholic Bible has seventy-three. (refer to Syukri’s wiki article). This creates a problem as I see it.(Which I wonder whether you are aware). The problem is “Has God’s Message been lost” After all, there are two versions of the Bible and 2 major branches of Christianity (in Singapore, at least). But as I see it, the question as to whether ” God’s Message been lost” also arises in Islam. This is because of the presence of sects within Islam. It is no use saying you have one version of the Quran when there are different interpretations, schools of thought, sects, different sets of Hadith differnt goups find acceptable etc. Observers of Islam will say that to some extent the correct message has been lost.(Sects of Muslims and sects of Christians tend to think that their sect is more correct. How are we to make an objective judgement.
To your fourth statement:”4. Quran is studied and read in its original language ( Arabic ) by Muslims regardless of their nationalities, thus preserving its authenticity, while Bible underwent ongoing translation thus destroy its beauty in the original language.”- Syukri
This is a propaganda statement. My impression from hearing ex-Muslims (on internet)is that many Muslims do not understand Arabic well. Its learning becomes a burden rather than a joy. There is a danger of lost of meaning or message when reading a translation of the Bible or Quran but I suggest to you that reading without fully understanding(or not understanding at all) the Quran in its original language may be even worst.
To your fifth statement “5. Quran can be memorized wholly. There is million of Muslim who memorizes Quran all over the world…… NO ONE MEMORIZES THE WHOLE BIBLE ( do you? ), not even the Pope, because Christians do not agree what defines Bible! ( Which Bible is the real Bible? Chatholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Ethiopian? ).- Sukri. My reply is, “please me tell why this fact makes the Quran superior to the Bible?”. Also, do you expect all Christians to learn Greek and Hebrew to memorize the Bible (which is more than twice as long as the Quran) in its original language.”NO ONE MEMORIZES THE WHOLE BIBLE” because it is too long and in two foreign languages, NOT because Christians do not agree what defines Bible. (Catholics can always try to memorize Catholic Bible , Protestants doing like-wise if they wanted to.). This last statement (statement no.5) is another fine example of your lack of ability to think straight.
end of reply
Truth,
Did someone try to frame you by using your nick to reply on Sep 15th, 2009 at 12:32 am bro? If not, whats up with the interval between Sep 14th, 2009 at 6:43 pm reply and Sep 15th, 2009 at 6:17 am reply buddy? Commercial break?
I have got good impression of you being gracious till I saw your reply to Syukri on Sep 15th, 2009 at 12:32 am.
“You asked a stupid question.” – truth
If it wasn’t you, thats fine I can understand that. But if it was you, that is so not cool dude. So not cool.
To Eric
Thank you for your comment.
Regarding the statement ” You asked a stupid question” which I said to Syukri (Sep 15th, 2009 at 12:32 am.). I was only stating what I saw to be a fact. Perhaps Syukri will try to defend that statement to show that it is not a stupid question. It is his choice. Or he can admit that he made a mistake. This I think will be difficult to do as he appears to talk like an expert defender of Islam ( with his ability to look up the bible verses in French, Arabic, and Latin if I understand correctly). If he keeps on admitting that he made mistakes upon mistakes, nobody will take him seriously. It will also throw into question everything that he has ever written and everything that he believes in (that is Islam).
Perhaps you think I was being rude. It was not my intention. I do not want to get into a debate about that as that is not my focus.
Syukri also said-”I don’t want to waste my time ….. to argue with someone who has no clear stand and objective judgement.” -Syukri, Sept 12, 11:33 am. At a glance I thought he was accusing me of having no objective judgement. I did not think it worthwhile to dwell on that. Now as to whether I have objective judgement and whether Syukri ask stupid questions and makes nonsense statements, the readers can decide as it is there for all to see.
Please note: I will not be writing for a week because of work reasons. Peace. Out.
Hi Truth,
Cool bro. Thanks for your reply and explanations regarding my query on whether if someone else was using your nick to reply.
Forget about the consistency of you addressing Syukri as…
SUKRI through out in these posts
Sep 6th, 2009 at 6:18 am,
Sep 10th, 2009 at 7:44 pm,
Sep 13th, 2009 at 6:14 am,
Sep 15th, 2009 at 12:32 am.
AND
SYUKRI through out in these posts
Sep 7th, 2009 at 5:11 am,
Sep 12th, 2009 at 4:00 am,
Sep 14th, 2009 at 6:43 pm,
Sep 15th, 2009 at 6:17 am,
Sep 16th, 2009 at 1:18 am.
Because You sure have said it right bro when you said:
“the readers can decide as it is there for all to see.” – “Truth”
I sure am very “convinced” now buddy that there is only “one” of you writing the replies. For the Truth stands out clear from Error – Qur’an 2:256
Take care there as always bro. Peace to you two now, I mean too.
To Eric
FYI – I have not left for work yet.
What are you suggesting by the way I write Syukri’s name. Have you not heard of the term “typo”.
(I wish to apologise to Syukri, for not being more careful about the way I spell his name. But that is not related to what I have been writing.).
I guess I also must apologise to Jesus as I referred to him as the “son” (note the small letter ’s’ in my nickname ‘truth and light from the son’ heading on 12th Sept 4am as compared to the way I wrote my nickname the rest of the time(hopefully) i.e. -’truth and light from the Son’ – Son spelled with a big S. I forgot to give Jesus the respect he deserves and he is God.
What you are trying to do Eric is to suggest something here where there is no issue, just as in your exchange with me about the stone of Jesus’ tomb. You can believe that I ‘truth and light from the Son’ is two persons actually if you want to. I cannot stop you.
Is it possible you came to suspect that I am actually two persons because of the “commercial break” you referred to (Eric’s post Sept 15, 1205pm). I did not want to explain why that happened as I felt it was not important. I will do so now.
I have given short replies to people over the internet. I can do this quickly. But my attempt to reply to Syukri was too long that day to finish all of it in one sitting. It did not occur to me to save my writing in a word document as I had never done that before for blogs (but have since discovered). Before that day of the “commercial break”, all my writing was done in that box below the words ‘LEAVE A REPLY’ in this blog site and posted immediately. I am not as good with the computer as you. You will notice that I do not use SMILING FACES as you do as I do not know how to make them appear.
As to why I posted a new topic to Syukri while one was still hanging, it is because I felt that the new topic was even more important than the one which was still” hanging.” I realise now that it broke the continuity of my writing and I apologise to all for that. I believe that objective persons will believe that what I say actually happened. It is a perfectly logical explanation.(And shows that I can be a bit of a scatter- brain at times.)
Also Eric, whether I am one or two persons does not affect the truth of all that I have written. That is what you have to consider.
Lastly, this “commercial – break” incident is like what happens in the Bible. We may not have all the answers to issues (like apparent contradictions) but there is a perfectly logical explanation. So please, Eric , do not ASSume I am two persons or ASSume things about the Bible. You will make an ASS of yourself ( as you shared with me earlier). Peace. Out
Hi again “truth”,
“So please, Eric , do not ASSume I am two persons…” – “Truth
I never assumed buddy. Unlike you whom have used the word ASS-U-me directly, I’ve just only asked.
Anyways my friend, a typo is defined as:
“typographical error
n. A mistake in printing, typesetting, or typing, especially one caused by striking an incorrect key on a keyboard.” – http://www.thefreedictionary.com/typographical error
hmmm…I am not assuming here now buddy but ah, just how often can a striking of an incorrect key on a keyboard occur for just a simple name? More than 9 times? Just asking bro
(OH, I just did the SMILING FACES thingy again there 
and again 
and again 
)
No worries dude, just like how you have correctly said:
“the readers can decide as it is there for all to see.” – “Truth”
We’ll leave it up to the readers to see now ya. Peace. Out to you two now. Oops, oh how careless of me, typo again. I mean out to you too now.
To Truth,
The discussion has became lengthy and overlapping. Therefore I would like to put the pieces together as below:
Pro Christ said:
Bible is easy to read.
Eric asked:
If that is so, can you point out to me where exactly in the bible did Jesus says to worship him?
On Sep 8th, Truth said:
“If Jesus is God, then we are to worship him.(I would think this is implied).So whether any verse exist in the New Testament in which Jesus claims ” Worship me” or not, becomes irrelevant if it is established that Jesus is God.” Verses exist that point to Jesus being God and of people worshiping him (e.g. Matthew 28:9 ” They came to him…. and worshiped him”)
On Sep 8th, I refuted his claim by showing translation from various Bible showing that the translation flawed. ( worship is actually bowing, but deceptively changed to suit trinitarian belief ) to show inconsistency in Bible Translation.
On Sep 12th, Truth defended Trinity, assumed that there was error in translation and demanded the proof be taken from Greek Bible, not translation:
His demand as follow: My response, if you care to consider is this:- I (a non- scholar of the Bible) quoted a verse of only one English TRANSLATION of the Bible(NIV version) that was made after the year 1970.
For the sake of discussion, let us assume that there was an error in the translation. For your information, the worship of Jesus DID NOT begin after 1970. The major beliefs of main-stream Christianity (the Trinity, The death of Jesus on the cross for the sins of the world, his Rising from the dead, etc…) were already established by the time of the appearance of Islam around the year 600 A.D.(roughly) and even before that. Even the Quran indicates that – “Say not “Trinity” from 4:171 (from Syukri’s comment.). I do not believe that core Christian beliefs arose from ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS or other translations for that matter. I AM NOT EVEN SURE that they arose from the Greek (Greek being the original language.) But would it not be more LOGICAL to assume that the GREEK (the original language) is the SOURCE of Christian beliefs rather than any translation. So I find your statement -”different translations of Matthew 28:9 and later lead to different understanding? ( bowing become adoration, then become worship, and the word worship is unscrupulously used to justify divinity of Jesus )?” – Syukri -, I find your statement nonsensical and mischievous.
Truth emphasized again the importance of Greek Bible, not translation, he ‘challenged’ me to look into Greek ( perhaps he think that I can’t do it ) :
He said: Perhaps YOU WOULD LIKE TO EXPLAIN how the core Christian ideas are found in the Greek manuscripts ( before they were translated to English). There are experts on the Greek language as you know, I am sure.
Eric advised Truth not to do a lot of assumption in faith:
Eric said:Don’t assume when you are not sure buddy, this is suppose to be the Word of God we are talking about here. Be more certain and concrete with proof. For you should know very well, if your assumptions are wrong and we believed you, ASSUME will only means that…it’ll make an ASS out of yoU and ME bro. Just my two cents
Truth acknowledged Eric:
Truth said:Thanks for your words of caution regarding my writing on Sept. 12 2009, 4am.My focus then was, firstly, to show that CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEF ARE FOUND IN THE GREEK MANUSCRIPTS of the NEW TESTAMENT before any English translation was made; which means the idea or suggestion that “Core Christian beliefs arose from wrong translations” is wrong.(Please also consider this as a reply to ‘Si Kitul – Sept 8, 4:38pm -Example of Bible translation.)
Truth contradicted his statement above ( compare the capital, which is mine )
Truth said:It was not my intention to say from where the Core Christian beliefs came but rather to show from where they did not come. I expressed this in the way that I thought best at the time and I hope all readers get the point.( I WAS NOT TRYING TO TEACH THAT CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEF CAME FROM THE GREEK MANUSCRIPT but to show that the beliefs are present there.)
My comment: Truth said the core christian belief are from Greek manuscript, not English translations, then changed his mind by saying that he is not trying to teach that core christian belief came from the Greek manuscript.
I am wondering:
1. If not from Greek manuscript,WHERE the core christian belief came from then ?
2. He tried to show that the beliefs are present there. Where?
Finally, I’m tired of this flip flop, then I post him this challenge since he is so adamant with his Greek manuscript:
I said: For argument sake, let’s say that Greek is the original language of Bible …The issue is, if I bring you the proof in Greek that support my argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping, are you going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
Truth pissed of and said:
The answer is NO and that is my clear stand. The answer should be obvious to all. “if I(Sukri) bring you(’truth’) the proof in Greek that support my(Sukri) argument that the real word is ‘bowing’, not worshiping,” the ONLY thing you proof, Sukri, is that the people at NIV made a mistake in the TRANSLATION.” A mistake in the TRANSLATION indicates a mistake made by the TRANSLATOR, not a flaw at its source (the New Testament in Greek -its original language).(Note: Your example is flawed because your thinking is flawed.) Why is that NOT CLEAR to you? (Besides, there are different English translations of the Quran. I will not say that the Quran is flawed because the translation contains mistakes.
You asked a stupid question.
The summary is:
1.Pro Christ said Bible is easy to read.
2.Eric asked proof from Bible stating that Jesus ask to be worshiped if Bible is indeed easy to read.
3.Truth brought Matthew 28:9 to show some people did ‘worship’ Jesus and Jesus did not stop them to.
4. I brought proof from different translations that the word is actually bowing, not worship. Therefore nullify his proof the divinity of Jesus in this verses.
5.Truth said that the translations are in English translated from the ‘original’ Bible in Greek. Therefore the proof must come from Greek, not translations.
6. Since he demanded the proof from Greek, I NATURALLY asked him : If I bring proof that Greek Bible stated that the word is indeed ‘bowing’,is he going to ACCEPT that Bible has been unscrupulously changed and corrupted?
7.Truth say NO and accused me asking stupid question. But he admitted that ‘ the people at NIV made a mistake in the TRANSLATION.” A mistake in the TRANSLATION indicates a mistake made by the TRANSLATOR.’
My comment
That exactly what I want Truth to admit. Most of the Bible are translated, and they consider translated Bible as HOLY BIBLE. Translated Bible are more used worldwide than Greek Bible. While translated Quran is not considered as Quran, and when Quran is translated, the original must be put side by side.
Unlike Quran, Bible is at the mercy of translator. Bible translations have been made into 2,479 languages, one of the two Testaments in 1,168 languages, and the full (Protestant Canon) Bible in 451 languages. And imagine people reading Bible which is prone to mistakes of translation by translators.
Truth, how are you can be sure that you are reading the real word of ‘god’? Seems you are the one who gave stupid answer.
Allah precisely said about this matter:
2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands ( translators ?? ), and then say:”This is from God,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
Syukri
Salam to all,
Below are the verses in Greek Bible to show that Bible(s) has been changed unscrupulously. Bear in mind that translated Bible is considered as Bible itself, like AL KITAB in Bahasa Indonesia, INJIL in Arabic and THE HOLY BIBLE in English. They don’t state at the cover of the book : ‘Terjemahan’ Al Kitab, ‘Tarjamatul Injil’,or ‘Translation of the Holy Bible’.
) ??? ????|_ ?????|? ??|?|???|?|?|? ???|??? ?????|_? ????|???. ?? ?? ???????|???|?? ?|?????|??|? ???|?? ???? ???|?? ??? ????|?|????|??|? ???|?.
????????? (proskune? 4352)
1. worship [verb] -ed, -eth, -ing
to crouch, crawl, or fawn, like a dog at his master’s feet; hence, to prostrate one’s self, after the eastern custom, to do reverence or homage to any one, by kneeling or prostrating one’s self before him; (The Greek translation of the OT everywhere for ??????, to bow down, to prostrate one’s self in reverence.) Used therefore of the act of worship.
(a) with ??????? (en?pion 1799) in the presence of, before.
http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
Syukri
Salam,
I would like to thank all of you, supporter and opponent alike for your contribution, especially Eric. Also Truth and his friends for their participation. One thing that we share in common is ‘we believe in Allah/ God’, unlike atheist.
I won’t be writing for a few weeks to focus on prayer and Quran ( where I got the inspiration from )during last 10 days of Ramadhan and after that I will celebrate Eid by visiting relatives.
I wish all of you:
SELAMAT HARI RAYA, MAAF ZAHIR BATIN
.
Syukri
Hi Syukri,
Good posts you have there bro. I enjoyed all of them. Especially the last one
“One thing that we share in common is ‘we believe in Allah/ God’, unlike atheist.” -Syukri
I share the same sentiments as you too bro.
To Truth and friends,
you guys have been great. This is sincerely from me now, thanks for the replies that you guys gave. Really appreciate that.
Wishing you Syukri and all who celebrate this festive season a SELAMAT HARI RAYA, MAAF ZAHIR BATIN. And to Truth and friends, Happy holidays to you guys. I’ll be taking my leave too here. Its gonna be a looong weekend and I sure am not gonna miss it! Take care as always guys.
Hello all,
I am back after one busy week.
I have read Syukri’s comments (Sept 16th 2009)and summary of postings by myself, Christ believer, Eric and Syukri. I feel that it is not necessary for me to respond. Besides, Syukri says he will be away for a few weeks. But I suggest that all readers read the actual postings (starting from Sept 6, 2009) as the postings are an accurate record of all that took place rather than one possibly bias’s person’s perception(summary) of events.
I wish, today, to highlight a question that Syukri asked: – “I am wondering:
1. If not from Greek manuscript,WHERE the core christian belief came from then ?” – Syukri -(Sept 16th, 2009). That is a question that I hope Muslims consider to arrive at CERTAIN and DEFINITE ANSWERS. I stated that CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS are found in the Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament(the original language). Just because they are found there does not mean that the beliefs originated from there. Obviously, one possibility of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS as Christians have today. So these writers were just writing down what was passed down to them from Jesus himself. That is to say, the CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS (the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus, His death for the sins of the world,his rising from the dead, etc..) has remain unchanged from the beginning, that is from Christ himself. This implies that Christians (Catholics and Protestants) are more correct despite their differences and Islam is not correct.This is one possibilility that Muslims will want to reject as it leads to the conclusion that Islam is false.
I hope Muslims will try to answer this questions with CERTAIN and DEFINITE ANSWERS for themselves (at least) because from my observation, there seems to be a lot of UNCERTAINTY within Islam. For example,
1) Syukri says “the original language of Bible is still debated among scholars ( Aramaic, koine Greek, Hebrew )” – August 31st 2009. I wonder if this statement was made by Syukri to suggest in people’s minds the possibility that the New Testament was originally in another language but the message was changed when it was translated into Greek. This is a CERTAIN and DEFINITE SPECULATION. No certainty.
2) All Christians will, without a doubt and in complete agreement, say that Jesus did miracles and agree on the records of miracles that Jesus did (as recorded in the New Testament). I do not believe all Muslims will, with certainty, say that Muhammad did miracles.(Quran-only Muslims will not be able to accept the miracles of Muhammad in the Hadith because they reject the Hadith).Shia Muslims believe in a different set of Hadith from the Sunnis so possibly arriving at a different set of miracles of Muhammad; therefore no complete agreement on the miracles of Muhammad or even that he did any. No certainty.
3) Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on on the cross because the Quran says so. However there is no universally accepted view (as far as I know) as to what happened to Jesus if Jesus did not die on the cross. I have heard Islamic theories that Jesus was miraculously replaced by Judas Iscariot(the traitor) at the last minute. Also another Islamic idea states that Jesus only fainted on the cross and later revived in the tomb. These, again, are speculation. No certainty.
4) There also seems to be no certainty within the Quran over some statements.For example: I hear it quoted from the Quran that THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION. I have come to understand that some Muslims view this as a statement of religious freedom: meaning that a Muslim can choose to leave Islam if he feels that Islam is not true. However I have heard it said that the last mentioned verse has been abrogated(cancelled and replaced) by later verses. Believing this some groups within Islam will not allow religious freedom: that is, once born a Muslim, you cannot leave it. I have heard it said that at least half of all the verses in the Quran have been abrogated. Is there any certainty within all of Islam as to which verses in the Quran are still valid and have not been abrogated. No certainty, as I see it.
5) As far as I can tell there also seems to be no sense of certainty for the Muslim to know whether a Muslim has done enough good works to cancel out his sins. There is no assurance of heaven within Islam(“you just hope for it.” “Christ Believer’ -Sept 8, 2009) This, I believe, is the main theme in the writing of ‘Christ Believer’ -Sept 8, 2009. I suggest that everyone read that post because that is how I feel too and I cannot say it any better.
Just sharing my observation. Any comments.
In His Service,
truth and light from the Son
Hey ya “Truth”! Nice to see you again buddy,
“That is a question that I hope Muslims consider to arrive at CERTAIN and DEFINITE ANSWERS” – ‘truth’
My oh my, what a very bold and certain statement you’ve got there buddy. Then you have to say this:
“OBVIOUSLY, ONE POSSIBILITY of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS as Christians have today.” – ‘truth’
One possibility? Possibility buddy? With an Obviously in front of it some more. Well, for someone who is telling other people to look for certainty, you are full of uncertainty yourself aren’t you my friend? Where is the definite answer for this one? No possibilities please. Just one concrete CERTAIN and DEFINITE answer. Provide one please.
Just sharing my observation too since you’ve asked for comments.
Thanks buddy.
Dear Syukri,
I apologize for the late reply. It had been a little bit busy actually. To answer to your question, ( 5th Aug ) I can’t think of the best way to explain to you on anything else but the Bible as it is the Book which is directly to the issues.
You said that I did not reply Norman’s questions directly to what he wanted to know. I think the answer is within him and God. I choose not to answer him directly but to let him think the otherwise. The answer is within him. I believed his question is more on the claims by the other religions that their god’s also in heaven, which, that I also must believe in the other god’s because they are also in heaven, according to other religions belief. To me, what I mentioned to him is more on facts on the history of Jesus and not something that had been created by men’s illusion on their belief.
You did questioning me about divinity of Jesus. “You did not address your first proof about divinity of Jesus because he is in heaven! ( Syukri )
The divinity of Jesus, which, according to the Bible, is enough for me to believed. There are many-many times Jesus mention His own divinity. Now let us look into the words and answers to some of our question about His divinity that Jesus used when He met with people during His time on earth. Let me start with this questions.
1. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have the authority to forgive sins except God Himself? NO! LUKE 7: (48) And He said to her, your sins are forgiven! (49) Then those who were at table with Him began to say among themselves, Who is this Who even forgives sins? (50) But Jesus said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go (enter) into peace. And in MARK 2: (5) And when Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralyzed man, son, your sins are forgiven [that is, the penalty is remitted, the sense of guilt removed, and you are made upright and in right standing with God]. Who can forgive sins = God, Jesus can forgive their sins, so Who is Jesus = God. No one ever willing to say that if they are not God.
2. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have to say that he’s the only way to go to heaven if he is just human except God Himself? NO! JOHN 14: (6) Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. Oh men! You know…there’s so many people can tell and teaches us this and that, about peace, about laws, about life on earth, about freedom, about religious things. So many people. So many prophets, so many scholars, but no one dare to say that what Jesus ever said. My goodness me.
3. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have ever conquered every single day and controls everything under his authority if not God Himself? NO! LUKE 6: (5) And He said to them, The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.
4. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have ever been said, that who ever believed in that particular name, will be saved except the name of God? NO! JOHN 3: (16) For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Beside other things that make me believed, this is more than enough for me to believe in Jesus. This all minus His teaching about love and forgiveness which is very crucial for all human kinds these days to practice love and forgiveness, in my family, community, to my country and to the world…this is a complete package for me to go to heaven.
Even if we assumed that all these claims that Jesus said is indicated wrongly about himself and is a blasphemy to God’s name, these, as we all know will make Him a sinner and liar. And surely He will not be so special and has no place in heaven.
Lets move on the topic you mention in Matthew 10: 24 “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword”, I still don’t know why you come into that misleading conclusions about the verse. If you read the whole chapter, I think kindergarten pupils also can understand that verse. It is true that Jesus said that because according to the history, it does happen but to the opposite.
Never in Jesus living history, that He Himself carries a weapon or sword or gathered His followers and declared wars upon others. Never! But do you understand when He say that He brings weapon and sword is because He knew that many times people in the family and community are fighting even killing their own supposedly beloved family members just because they wanted to know Jesus and become a Christian.
If you happen to see those Christians doing that, because their family members left for other religions, it is out of a personal anger and not because the Bible asking them to do that. How about the teaching of the Quran? It’s still happen until today especially in the Muslim country. I am not intended to offence, but this is the reality. This is what Jesus is telling us. In fact, Bible teaches us in EPHESIAN 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
I will answer the rest of you topics in the near future because I am leaving the office soon. Hope that what I’ve written here will open our spiritual eyes that we may have the truth that leads us into everlasting life. God bless you and to all readers too.
Julian
Hi Julian,
Well done dude. Well structured post you have there. I get your points too. But that doesn’t mean I totally agree with them. I have comments on them that I would like to voice out but that’ll just make the current discussion in progress, which is “The Origin Of The Core Christian Beliefs”, a great big heap of mess. Nevertheless, I have just two that I would like to hear from your opinion.
As you know very well, Jesus spoke in parables as how you demonstrated in your point when you told Syukri about what was meant when Jesus said he brought a sword in Matthew 10:34
With that in mind, why can’t you apply that same lesson you taught Syukri to JOHN 14:6 too? You are being selective here my friend. Double standard. As how you put it, even kindergarten pupils can see that, right?
Last but not the least, I have just one more that I would like to hear your opinion on. Its this, your point no.3 :
“3. Is there anyone on earth that ever lived could and have ever conquered every single day and controls everything under his authority if not God Himself? NO! LUKE 6: (5) And He said to them, The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” – Julian
You’ve tried to imply with Luke 6:5 as proof of Jesus’ divinity.
“…The Son of Man is Lord…” – Luke 6:5
How certain are you my friend, since Jesus love to speak in parables, that the term Lord is not just a title or something else? As we know, we don’t see LORD LOUIS MOUNTBATTEN as God don’t we? Along with it the other LORDS that we came to know about.
Besides, if Jesus meant to say that he is god with that term Lord, why then did Paul wrote to the Ephesians as such:
“I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[a] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.” – Ephesians 1:17
Its says “the God of our LORD Jesus Christ” buddy. Meaning Lord Jesus Christ has a God. God has no god my friend. Its in your Bible, go read Isaiah 44:6,8.
Explain please.
Thanks dude for your kind attention.
to truth and light from the Son,
Stop commenting about our faith if you are not sure or else you are only disclosing your inconsistency, embarrassing yourself and tarnishing the image of christianity.
Hi Eric,
Thanks for your post and comments bro. As to continue to our discussions, I will try to answer to your few questions. You did says, “As you know very well, Jesus spoke in parables as how you demonstrated in your point when you told Syukri about what was meant when Jesus said he brought a sword in Matthew 10:34” (Eric.)
Well on this, we all agreed that it is a parable. But do you think that John 14:6 is a parable. No, it is not! This is in fact a declaration. This is proclamations. I can say that because the two statements had different points. When Jesus talks about the sword, He never carries one. When He talks about separation, He preaches about love and unity. In fact He hates separation. That is parable.
My friend, I am not double standard. What the point I am doing that? What the point of being someone believing and protecting something which is meaningless or if it is useless? If my point is not clear to you, at least it is clear to me and that is not what I want it to be but it’s there even if I don’t believe. If you say that I am double standard or selective, first, you must declare that the Bible is wrong. Our story will end here. If not, as I always said, I answered those questions according to the Bible.
To your second question, you ask me “How certain are you my friend, since Jesus love to speak in parables, that the term Lord is not just a title or something else? As we know, we don’t see LORD LOUIS MOUNTBATTEN as God don’t we? Along with it the other LORDS that we came to know about” ( Eric )
Who is lord Louis Mountbatten and who is Lord Jesus? Can’t you make any different of the two? You know what? They might have the same title but they are different person, just like the heaven and earth. The two Lords had different characters. They have two different missions in their life. One is to destroy enemy lives and the other One is saving the world from hell! What Lord Jesus did on earth is to make sure people like you and I go to heaven and not to hell! You can become lord of anything else but Jesus become Lords of our salvations. That’s the most important. Yes you can call Louis Mountbatten lord but lord of what!? Just lord of war? I am not interested in this small-small lords, I am talking about the LORD that save the world. He is The LORD of all lords and KING of all kings. And His name is JESUS.
To your next question, first, I want to ask you. Let say you just walk alone and God revealed Himself to you in the human form, would you will believed in Him if He say “hi Eric, I Am your God, would you like to come with Me”? What will be your first thought? I think you will say, “I don’t think He is God because He is no different as I am”.
What kind of picture you put into your mind about God? Do you picture Him as God of limited edition or God that is above all? But what is the fact on that? Even if you don’t believe, it can’t change the fact that He is God that can do everything under His will and His love towards us.
God almighty can do anything without limit and we can’t limit God. But that I understand because people like you will only think that God never come to the world to be closer to you and He only exists in heaven. Look at us from far away. Do you think God can’t come closer to you? Which one do you think more easy. For the king to come to you or for you to go to the king? That’s why even if you worship Him, you will feel that He is very far away, and you will stuck with all the rules that has been set for the hope that it will honor God. But what good things that we do can match the perfection of our God, or His righteousness, or His holiness to make us worthy of heaven? If we compare to the perfection of God, none will match that. So how are we going to know we can go to heaven? Only by His grace we are saved.
But how can we sure how much grace that we have and how much God really loves us. Should we believe God without His proof? Without any proof, I can say that we’re having a blind faith. The perfect proof of that love is when Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins. That is not the love of man but the love of God. Men are willing to die for something or somebody they loved but they are not willing to die for their enemy or sinners like us.
As you talk about Isaiah, well, looks like you’re very familiar with the Bible verses or actually you took it from other resources. Anyway, that’s not important. Let me tell you this once and foremost. All Christian, including I myself, believed in only ONE God. There’s only ONE God. The same God that created the heaven and earth, the same God that spoke in Isaiah is the same God that spoke in John 14:6.
Let me illustrate this to you and I hope it will help you to understand more. Ok, let me put it like this. If you use 3 in 1 shampoo, do you know from that 1 shampoo will gives you 3 different treatments?
First element is to nourishing your hair
Second element is tot cleansing your hair
Third element is to protect your hair.
So even it’s has three elements, but it’s come from 1 source. You only have one shampoo! That’s how we look at ONE God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. It’s 3 in1.
John 1: (1) IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. (2) He was present originally with God. (3) All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being. (4) In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men. (5) And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it.
I don’t expect you to agree with me but at least we can share this faith. My hope is that we will meet in heaven one day. God loves and bless you.
Julian
Hi Julian,
“My hope is that we will meet in heaven one day. God loves and bless you.” – Julian
Thanks for the prayers and blessings bro. I really appreciate that.
And thanks also for the kind reply. Believe it or not, I read it from top to bottom and bottom to top. I particularly like the one with the 3 in 1 shampoo illustration thingy. I can almost imagined how it would appear on TV if it was a TV commercial. It can go something like this: The 3 in 1 God religion, come get your Free salvation here today! terms and conditions apply. Sorry buddy, I just can’t help it. But I do get your point there even though, again, I don’t agree with them.
“As you talk about Isaiah, well, looks like you’re very familiar with the Bible verses or actually you took it from other resources.” – Julian
Awww come on…don’t be silly. You know what Julian? I have a feeling that you did not read all the comments that were ever posted here. Or did you my friend? Selectively? Because if you did, that sentence of yours will just be unnecessary.
Anyway, that’s not important. Right? Now put that aside. Guess what now buddy? Despite the lengthy explanation you gave and also the unnecessary questioning of my knowledge in the existence of that verse in Isaiah. I can’t seem to find, anywhere in your reply, you trying to address my question regarding on why Paul wrote to the Ephesians as such in Ephesians 1:17 if Jesus is god. I read and re-read about 3 times to be very sure that I did not miss it but it is just not there! It is remarkable that you totally missed it buddy because my quote on Isaiah (which was highlighted by you) came right after that. Let me refresh your memory in case you missed out.
““I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[a] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.” – Ephesians 1:17
Its says “the God of our LORD Jesus Christ” buddy. Meaning Lord Jesus Christ has a God. God has no god my friend. Its in your Bible, go read Isaiah 44:6,8.” – Eric
Here is a clear cut message that says your Lord Jesus Christ has a God. If he has a God, he can’t be God, my friend. Because like I have pointed out, God has no god. You remained silence on this one. Or, were you trying to save this for another day? If it is, your another day can be now. Care to share your views on this one buddy?
Thanks for sharing.
To Eric
Thank you for your comment (dated sept26, 6:56pm)
You quoted me”“OBVIOUSLY, ONE POSSIBILITY of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS as Christians have today.” – ‘truth’ Sept 24.
Then you go on to say”Well, for someone who is telling other people to look for certainty, you are full of uncertainty yourself aren’t you my friend? Where is the definite answer for this one?
No possibilities please.”.
My purpose in using the word “POSSIBILITY” with regards to the Christian beliefs origins (and its connection with the Greek New Testament) is for readers (including Muslim readers) to consider. For the Christian, it is a certainty that the Greek New Testament is an accurate record of the beliefs of the earliest followers of Jesus ( including Peter, Paul and James). I do not now wish to attempt to provide proofs that the Bible is accurate and is the Word of God as this task has been more ably done by Christian web-sites (such as – “Answering Islam”). I only highlighted this as a possibility for Muslims to consider; a possibility that they must consider if they want to be OBJECTIVE (i.e. without bias). Not to consider this possibility indicates a closed mind; a mind, perhaps, afraid of what it may discover. A person who is truly a truth- seeker ( and not a blind follower of Islam) must consider this possibility.
I have more things to write about but I am too busy with work matters. I shall write again if the Lord allows.
To truth,
You said: Obviously, one possibility of these beliefs origins is this :the persons writing the books in the New testament (e.g. Saint Peter and Saint Paul) had the same CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEFS as Christians have today. So these writers were just writing down what was passed down to them from Jesus himself.
My answer:
1.First of all, please don’t consider possibility as a goodwill offer. If I say to you: there 1 is a possibility that you may go to heaven if you accept Islam’, will you duly accept it? Or if you are judge, will you pass a verdict based of possibility? If you are certain, you will never offer a possibility for such an important matter, aren’t you? But you are not certain.
2.I realize that using possibility, perhaps, plausible suggestion, anonymous, traditionally been assigned; is common by Christian to prove their claims. This is not the way to discuss about God.
3. However,that’s is no surprise for those who say that God is one but exist in 3. They just don’t bother to conform with the basic layman logic, yet unashamedly accuse people who resist their ‘illogical logic’ as closed mind, blind follower, not a truth seeker etc.
4.Now, let’s go to ‘the person writing the books in the New Testament’. First is Paul. I want to ask you,What is his authority to write the Bible? Did Jesus approve him in front of his other apostle? Or just because he said so? Then, who are other witnesses to confirm that? Or you are the type who will believe anybody who claimed that he saw Jesus?
Let’s look at Corinthians 7:40 (New International Version)
40In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I THIND that I too have the Spirit of God.
Paul showed absolutely NO CONFIDENCE and no AUTHORITY in his claims about receiving Divine Revelations. When he said “I think I have the Spirit of GOD in me,” that statement virtually blew away all of his credibility as a true Prophet, because what kind of a delusional and confused person was he? And what “spirit” was really inspiring him? Or was he just having plain delusions?
Now, see the irrefutable proof about Paul never was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Let us first look at what Paul said and then compare them to Jesus’ commands:
1 Corinthians 7:25-28
25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.
26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are.
27 Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife.
28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
There are few important points to mention:
1- Paul never met Jesus in person while Jesus was on earth. Paul became a “prophet” by claiming that Jesus appeared to him on his way to Damascus.
2- The Jewish Law allows for a man to divorce his wife if she is not pleasing to him. Matthew 19:8 below, further confirms that.
3- Paul was a Jew, and from his writings he seemed to be very knowledgeable about the Jewish Law.
4- Paul, who never met Jesus, was obviously unaware of the fact that Jesus forbade divorce between the husband and the wife, except in the case of adultery!
5. Paul abrogated law of OT ( circumcision, eating pig etc as if he is greater than Jesus or in same level with Jesus; a god )
Paul’s words 1 Corinthians 7:27 exposed him to be a liar, because if the Holy Spirit was truly inspiring him, then he would not have uttered such statement! Paul, the Jew, was talking about divorce in general and loosely (with no specifics and no conditions). Yes, the Jewish Law allows divorce between ordinary couples, but Jesus forbade it! In Christianity, divorce between ordinary couples, whom neither one of them committed any major sin against the other, is strictly forbidden, and Paul’s general advise for his followers to not seek a divorce makes it clear that he was ignorant of what Jesus. The Holy Spirit would’ve inspired Paul to be speak only about the folks who’s spouses have cheated on them to not get divorced from them, which I have no idea how this would’ve helped his followers anyway! Paul was rather speaking in general terms – in the two parts of 1 Corinthians 7:27:
The same case goes to other author of Bible. For example, the Gospel according to Matthew. You always talk about being objective. Let’s prove one! I brought all these prove from christian sources itself! This gospel is the oldest and supposedly the most original one in the New Testament!
“The unknown author, whom we shall continue to call Matthew FOR THE SAKE OF CONVENIENCE, drew no only up the Gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, sayings of Jesus) not found in Mk that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1008)”
“As for the place where the gospel was composed, a PLAUSIBLE SUGGESTION is that it was Antioch, the capital of the Roman province of Syria. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1009)”
So we clearly see, both the author or authors and the place of composition of the “Gospel of Matthew” are UNKNOWN.
“Although the book is ANONYMOUS, apart from the ancient heading “According to Mark” in manuscripts, it has traditionally been assigned to John Mark, in whose mother’s house (at Jerusalem) Christians assembled. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1064)”
“Although there is NO DIRECT INTERNAL EVIDENCE of AUTHORSHIP, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church that this Gospel was written by John Mark. (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1488)”
“Traditionally, the gospel is said to have been written shortly before A.D. 70 in Rome, at a time of impending persecution and when destruction loomed over Jerusalem. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1064)”
“SERIOUS DOUBTS exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes [1], page 1528)”
“This verse, which reads, “But if you do not forgive, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your transgressions,” is omitted in the best manuscripts. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1081)”
“This passage, termed the Longer Ending to the Marcan gospel by comparison with a much briefer conclusion found in some less important manuscripts, has traditionally been accepted as a canonical part of the gospel and was defined as such by the Council of Trent. Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1088)”
So, in reality, we don’t really know whether Mark was the sole author of this Gospel or not, nor do we know when and where the “gospel” was even written. And since The New Testament wasn’t even documented on paper until 150-300 years (depending on what Christian you talk to) after Jesus, then how are we to know for sure that the current “Gospel of Mark” wasn’t written by some pro of Mark?
Now my concern to this corruption and ‘answer-the-problem-away’ statement is that what are those so-called ”
1.reliable early manuscript(s)”
2. “ancient witnesses”
3. ‘authors of Bible?
The below text from Biblegateway online reads: “The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16:9-20;&version=NIV;
Allah clearly tells about this matter:
“Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against God, or saith, “I have received inspiration,” when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, “I can reveal the like of what God hath revealed”? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! – the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),”Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against God, and scornfully to reject of His signs!” (The Noble Quran, 6:93)”
therefore, the CORE CHRISTIAN BELIEF is still UNCERTAIN and your POSSIBILITY is IMPOSSIBLE.
P/S :I like this website and recommend it to readers.
http://www.answering-christianity.com
I will answer you about the uncertainty is Islam as you claimed later.
thank you.
Salam,
Dear Talib. Are you Muslim? I’m about to address Truth for that matter. Thanks anyway.
Syukri
Hi Talib,
“1.First of all, please don’t consider possibility as a goodwill offer. If I say to you: there 1 is a possibility that you may go to heaven if you accept Islam’, will you duly accept it? Or if you are judge, will you pass a verdict based of possibility? If you are certain, you will never offer a possibility for such an important matter, aren’t you? But you are not certain.” – Talib
Nice. Spot on bro. That was what I’ve meant but you have said it better. Thanks for the clarity in your words. Your reply is just fantastic.
Hi ‘truth’,
“3. However,that’s is no surprise for those who say that God is one but exist in 3. They just don’t bother to conform with the basic layman logic, yet unashamedly accuse people who resist their ‘illogical logic’ as closed mind, blind follower, not a truth seeker etc.” – Talib
That sure reflects back on you to see who exactly is the closed minded blind follower now buddy. I hope you read Talib’s latest reply from beginning till end. And I recommend the readers to do the same thing too with an opened unbiased logical mind.
Take care now.
To Talib
Thank you for your comments.
You have written a lot. I feel moved, at this point in time, to address one issue in your writing. You said”4.Now, let’s go to ‘the person writing the books in the New Testament’. First is Paul. I want to ask you,What is his authority to write the Bible? Did Jesus approve him in front of his other apostle? Or just because he said so? Then, who are other witnesses to confirm that?”- Talib Oct 3rd. You also add “1- Paul never met Jesus in person while Jesus was on earth. Paul became a “prophet” by claiming that Jesus appeared to him on his way to Damascus.” and “5. Paul abrogated law of OT ( circumcision, eating pig etc as if he is greater than Jesus or in same level with Jesus; a god )
My reply is as follows: I wish to share with you one Bible verse and the explanation of one Christian writer that I remember. The verse is 2 Peter 3:15-16 (NIV)-”..Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him… His letters contain things that ..ignorant and unstable people distort,as they do the other Scriptures…”. Rules of language dictates that Saint Peter is saying Paul’s writings is Scripture( guided by God) just as “the other Scriptures”. That verse alone indicates that Paul has guidance from God even if he never met Jesus (but he did meet Jesus on the road to Damascus). Paul’s writings is on the same level as Peter, James, John, etc. The connection between Paul’s and the other disciple’s writings has been established. It is no surprise therefore that Paul’s writings are included in the Christian Holy Scriptures. .To suggest or hint that what Paul is writing is not at one with Christ’s teaching is misleading. No less a person than Saint Peter, the most prominent of Christ’s first disciples has given his stamp of approval. So, Talib, your criticism of the writings of Saint Paul goes against Saint Peter himself. I believe Saint Peter, not you.
Hi ‘truth’,
“To suggest or hint that what Paul is writing is not at one with Christ’s teaching is misleading.” – .’truth’
I’m going to ask the same question I’ve asked Pro Christ;
You Kidding me???
to Truth,
1.Who is the real author of Gospel of Peter ( which Truth has quoted to prove authority of Paul )?
The answer :The Gospel of Peter explicitly claims to be the work of the apostle Peter:
“And I with my companions was grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves:” —GoP, 7.
“But I Simon Peter and Andrew my brother took our nets and went to the sea;” — GoP, 14.
HOWEVER, it was a common convention that an apostle’s name would be given to a text to give the work greater authority. The gospel is widely thought to date from after Peter’s death and thus to be PSEUDEPIGRAPHICAL (bearing the name of an author who did not actually compose the text).
According to Carson, D.A., and Douglas J. Moo. An Introduction to the New Testament, second edition. HarperCollins Canada; Zondervan: 2005. ISBN 0310238595, ISBN 978-0310238591. p.659 with regard to author of Gospel of Peter : CERTAINLY NOT PETER.
The New Testament includes two letters (epistles) ascribed to Peter. Both demonstrate a high quality of cultured and urban Greek, at ODDS with the linguistic skill that would ordinarily be expected of an ARAMAIC-SPEAKING FISHERMAN, who would have learned Greek as a second or third language.
the author of the first epistle explicitly claims to be using a SECRETARY, and this explanation would allow for discrepancies in style without entailing a different source. The textual features of these two epistles are such that a majority of scholars DOUBT that they were written by the same hand. This means at the most that Peter COULD NOT HAVE AUTHORED BOTH, or at the least that he used a different secretary for each letter. Some scholars argue that theological differences imply DIFFERENT sources, and point to the lack of references to 2 Peter among the early Church Fathers.
Of the two epistles, the first epistle is considered the earlier. A number of scholars have ARGUED that the textual DISCREPANCIES with what would be expected of the biblical Peter are due to it having been written with the help of a secretary or as an amanuensis. Indeed in the first epistle the use of a secretary is clearly described: “By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand”.
Thus, in regards to at least the first epistle, the claims that Peter would have written Greek seem IRRILEVANT. The references to persecution of Christians, which only began under Nero, cause most scholars to date the text to at least 80, which would require Peter to have survived to an age that was, at that time, extremely old, and almost NEVER reached, particularly by common fishermen.
In the salutation of the First Epistle of Peter the writer refers to the diaspora, WHICH DID NOT OCCUR until 136: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
The Second Epistle of Peter, on the other hand, appears to have been COPIED, in part, from the Epistle of Jude, and some modern scholars date its composition as late as c. 150. Some scholars argue the OPPOSITE, that the Epistle of Jude copied 2 Peter, while others contend an early date for Jude and thus observe that an early date is not incompatible with the text. Many scholars have noted the similarities between the apocryphal second pseudo-Epistle of Clement (2nd century) and 2 Peter. Second Peter MAY BE earlier than 150, there are a few POSSIBLE references to it that date back to the first century or early second century, e.g., 1 Clement written in c. AD 96, and the later church historian Eusebius claimed that Origen had made reference to the epistle before 250. Even in early times there was CONTROVERSY OVER ITS AUTHORSHIP, and 2 Peter was often NOT INCLUDED in the Biblical Canon; it was only in the 4th century that it gained a firm foothold in the New Testament, in a series of synods. In the east the Syrian Orthodox Church still did not admit it into the canon until the 6th century.
My comment: all this uncertainties about the original author of Gospel of Peter nullify your quote from that gospel.
2. Peter and Paul relationship
The “Incident at Antioch” is the standard title historians use to refer to the Early Christian DISPUTE between the apostles Paul and Peter which occurred in the city of Antioch around the middle of the first century. The primary source for the incident is Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians 2:11-14.
11But when Peter came to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
12For before certain ones came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they had come, he withdrew and separated himself from them, fearing those who were of the Circumcision.
13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him, so much that Barnabas also was carried away by their dissimulation.
14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, “If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Since F.C. Baur, scholars have found EVIDENCE of CONFLICT among the leaders of Early Christianity
The outcome of the conflict:
The final outcome of the incident remains UNCERTAIN, indeed the issue of Biblical law in Christianity remains DISPUTED to this day. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “St. Paul’s account of the incident leaves no doubt that St. Peter saw the justice of the rebuke.” In contrast, L. Michael White’s From Jesus to Christianity states: “The blowup with Peter was a total failure of political bravado, and Paul soon left Antioch as persona non grata, never again to return.”
My comment: Peter and Paul are not on the good term, therefore Peter contradicted his approval of Paul.
At least, for such an important decision, the approval of Paul as an apostle must be done by Jesus himself before his death ( with other witnesses ), not by other apostle who was believed to have disagreement with each other.
So, you believe Saint Peter, not me. Fine. Whose Saint Peter do you mean?
Hello all
Today I wish to share another observation. Some Muslims make statements about the Christian faith such as :”your faith is more confusing “-Syukri -sept 11, 4:05pm.”The word of God must be stated very clearly to avoid confusion” – Eric , Sept 9. Is it possible that Muslims have come to believe that the true religion has to be simple. ( There is even a book about Islam called – the Religion is Simple by F S A Majeed). I am not here today to suggest that the true religion must be complex. I am just wondering how this idea of SIMPLICITY in religion came about in Islam. Is it a criteria for establishing the truth that the true religion must be simple? Is that criteria valid? I am not aware of any such idea in Christianity. As far as I am concerned, the true religion has only to be true. If a particular religion is true, then we have to accept it whether it is complex or simple.
On Christianity, I will accept comments from Muslims who say that Christianity is more “confusing” and complex. These statements do not affect the truth of Christianity. My thoughts at this moment is that the truths of Christianity is not simple, or easily understood. As I see it even the God of the Christians is to be found after some effort. (I do not believe that Lord Jesus will appear in your room after you say a prayer asking Him to reveal Himself; though some people say that Jesus has appeared to them in their room.) I believe as I do because of the verse : Jeremiah 29:13 (NIV) -”You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” We are to seek God with all our heart if we hope to find Him.
“… the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls.46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it. ” Matthew 13:45,46 (NIV). Do we value the Kingdom of Heaven above everything else? Perhaps then can we be citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven. Perhaps then can we find God.
Lastly, on this idea of simplicity, I wish to share a quote I read from the writings of one ex- atheist/agnostic who became a Christian and who later wrote a book on Christianity:
“If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier and simpler. But it IS NOT. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.”
C.S.Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York, The Macmillan Company, 1943, Page 145
Everything written above is just my thoughts and is not official Church teaching that I am aware of. Any comments
Hi truth,
“Is it a criteria for establishing the truth that the true religion must be simple?” – ‘truth’
Yes. It just shows the mercy of God unto us by allowing easy access to His true religion.
“My thoughts at this moment is that the truths of Christianity is not simple, or easily understood.” – ‘truth’
Ok. So, what ever happened to “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace” (1 Corinthians 14:33) then?
Lastly, I believe most of us would love to hear your comment on Talib’s latest reply to you.
Thanks as always buddy for your kind attention.
To Talib
Just a short reply from me for now on one part of your writing.
Did you make a mistake? You say “1.Who is the real author of Gospel of Peter ( WHICH TRUTH HAS QUOTED to prove authority of Paul )?
The answer :The Gospel of Peter explicitly claims to be the work of the apostle Peter:
“And I with my companions was grieved; and being wounded in mind we hid ourselves:” —GoP, 7.
– Talib, Oct 5,2009
FYI, I have never heard of the Gospel of Peter until you mentioned it. I quoted from the Letters of Saint Peter found in the Holy Bible which are known as First Peter and Second Peter and not the writings claiming to be Gospel of Peter. Everything that you wrote until the statement “with regard to author of Gospel of Peter : CERTAINLY NOT PETER.” only shows your error or lack of knowledge of what Christians believe.
To truth,
I’m no scholar of Bible, like you. I take back my word with regard to Gospel of Peter. Therefore I rephrase : Who is the real author of FIRST PETER and SECOND PETER ( which truth has quoted to prove authority of Paul) ?
If you never heard of the Gospel of Peter, click below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Seems you have meticulously read all my comment, then what do you say about my comment about 1) authorship of First Peter and Second Peter, 2) relationship between Paul and Peter.
Hope you don’t deviate.
To truth,
To justify confusion, contradiction and uncertainties in Christianity, you’ve stated : On Christianity, I will ACCEPT comments from Muslims who say that Christianity is more “confusing” and complex. These statements DO NOT AFFECT the truth of Christianity. My thoughts at this moment is that the TRUTHS OF CHRISTIANITY IS NOT SIMPLE, or EASILY UNDERSTOOD.
My comment: Your thought clearly contradict the teaching of your own scripture that value clear understanding. Furthermore, if not so, what is the purpose of God sending prophets and scripture? Why God do not let people find ‘truth’ in confusion as you may suggest?
John 8:43
43Why is my language not CLEAR to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
Matthew 15:10
Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and UNDERSTAND.
Proverbs 3:13
Blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
the man who gains UNDERSTANDING,
Proverbs 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding delights in wisdom.
Proverbs 18:2
A FOOL finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.
John 16:29
Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are SPEAKING CLEARLY and without figures of speech.
To Talib
I said “My thoughts at this moment is that the TRUTHS OF CHRISTIANITY IS NOT SIMPLE, or EASILY UNDERSTOOD.” which you quoted. Then you commented “Your thought clearly contradict the teaching of your own scripture that value clear understanding.”
I suggest to you that you have made another mistake. You quoted “Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and UNDERSTAND.” -Matthew 15:10
As I see it, the idea of “UNDERSTANDING” and the idea of “SIMPLICITY & COMPLEXITY” are two separate ideas. I can understand simple things. I can also understand complex ideas.
“Listen and UNDERSTAND.” Matthew 15:10 Jesus said. The Bible verses you quoted can be seen as encouraging us to gain understanding. (e.g. Proverbs 3:13
Blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
the man who gains UNDERSTANDING.
But what we are encouraged to understand may be more complex ideas. Where does it say that the ideas must be simple or easily understood. The verse you quoted -John 16:29“Then Jesus’ disciples said, “NOW you are SPEAKING CLEARLY and without figures of speech.” suggest that before the “NOW”, the disciples thought that Jesus was NOT SPEAKING CLEARLY. Also the verse I quoted earlier – 2 Peter 3:15-16 (NIV)-”..Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him… His letters contain some things that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND which ignorant and unstable people distort,as they do the other Scriptures…”. So Paul’s letters, which are considered Holy Scripture, contain some things that are hard to understand.
So I suggest to you my view,( that there is greater complexity and HARD TO UNDERSTAND ideas within Christian truth), does not,as you say, “clearly contradict the teaching of (my) own scripture”. I hope you understand this as :
Proverbs 18:2
A FOOL finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.
To Talib
You wrote ” what do you say about my comment about 1) authorship of First Peter and Second Peter, 2) relationship between Paul and Peter.” – Talib, Oct 10, 5.39pm.
I wish to address the first point for now. Some of what I have to say is actually from your own writing. I feel that you have done “cut and paste” in your reply without reading or thinking through carefully about what you post.
For example, you wrote -”The New Testament includes two letters (epistles) ascribed to Peter. Both demonstrate a high quality of cultured and urban Greek, at ODDS with the linguistic skill that would ordinarily be expected of an ARAMAIC-SPEAKING FISHERMAN, who would have learned Greek as a second or third language.”. This suggest a problem for Christians.
Then you go on to provide the solution when you say – “the author of the first epistle explicitly claims to be using a SECRETARY, and this explanation would allow for discrepancies in style without entailing a different source. The textual features of these two epistles are such that a majority of scholars DOUBT that they were written by the same hand. This means at the most that Peter COULD NOT HAVE AUTHORED BOTH, or at the least that he used a different secretary for each letter.” .
This last sentence suggest two possibilities. Saint Peter wrote one letter but not the other, OR Saint Peter used two different secretaries for each letter, that is why there is a difference in style between the two letters. If Saint Peter used two different secretaries, then there is no problem. Then Talib, why did you even bother to bring this up in the first place. Are you trying to create doubt in the minds of Christians when there is nothing to be concerned about.
The rest of your writing looks like “cut and paste” opinions of experts who even disagree among themselves. I do not feel inclined to reply. I wonder if you even read through them, thought about them and fully understand the experts points. After all you did say that -”I’m no scholar of Bible, like you. I take back my word with regard to Gospel of Peter. ” – Talib , Oct 10, 5.39pm. I respect you for the fact that you are honest enough to admit that you made a mistake (for that is what “I take back my word …” means if I understand correctly). However it also might causes readers to wonder if you know what you are talking about.
To Truth,
‘Christianity is not simple or easily understood’ does not mean that it is true. Buddhism ,Hinduism and many other man made belief also very elaborate and not easily understood.
If you understand things that I don’t understand, please explain it and answer my question. ( such as what is the authority of Paul that his writing is considered Holy Scripture ). Don’t just say it is not easily understood. That is called cheap escapism.
FYI, I find pleasure in understanding, that why I ask you question so that I can understand.
” Hard to understand’ is always an excuse from those who can’t understand and find NO pleasure in understanding.
To Talib
This is in reply to your post on Oct 12, 3:05am -”If you understand things that I don’t understand, please explain it and answer my question. ( such as what is the authority of Paul that his writing is considered Holy Scripture ). Don’t just say it is not easily understood.” – Talib.
We have been talking about ideas such as simplicity and complexity of truth as it relates to Christianity and Islam. I suggest to you that the problem some persons have with Christianity is not its complexity. It is not a problem of having enough IQ to understand the more complex Christian truth. Rather, I believe, it is an attitude problem. Your own quotation of Lord Jesus in John 8:43 :”Why is my language not CLEAR to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say”.(Talib – Oct 10,2009 – 8.06pm). The ESV version of the Bible translates this as ” …..It is because YOU CANNOT BEAR TO HEAR MY WORD.” John 8:43. It seems that Jesus was talking CLEARLY then and yet some did not understand. I suggest to you that perhaps it is more correct to say SOME PERSONS DID NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND. This issue of persons not wanting to understand happened when Jesus spoke CLEARLY then; and perhaps is happening now when Christians present Christian truth to Muslims. Let Muslims not say that Christianity is NOT CLEAR, “confusing”and complex, not easily understood and other excuses; for the problem really lies not within “complex” Christianity but within the attitude of Muslims themselves. Muslims cannot bear to hear the words (teaching) of Jesus -whether His words(teaching) are complex or simple.
To Talib
Today I wish to address your second statement : – “2) relationship between Paul and Peter.” – Talib, Oct 10, 5.39pm. You ask me to comment on this relationship because of the incident recorded in Galatians 2:11-14. Where there appears to be a conflict of opinion between the two persons.
You mentioned -’ The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “St. Paul’s account of the incident leaves no doubt that St. Peter saw the justice of the rebuke.” In contrast, L. Michael White’s From Jesus to Christianity states: “The blowup with Peter was a total failure of political bravado, and Paul soon left Antioch as persona non grata, never again to return….
My(Talib) comment: Peter and Paul are not on the good term, therefore Peter contradicted his approval of Paul.” – Talib, Oct 5, 2009, 4:44am.
It is not surprising to me that you, Talib, would want everyone to believe that “Peter and Paul are not on good terms” and that “Peter contradicted his approval of Paul.” You are saying these things because I mentioned the verse 2 Peter 3:15-16 in which Saint Peter implies that he recognizes the writing of Saint Paul as being guided by God. That is your desperate attempt to discredit Saint Paul and the approval of Saint Peter.
I wish, at this point in time, to share an observation. Is it not odd that Saint Peter, after having been with Jesus (whom Christians believe is God) for so long could still commit an error of judgement. (So Saint Peter is not perfect as the Muslims believe Islam’s Prophet Muhammad is- if I understand correctly). Actually Saint Peter’s error reminds me of Moses’ error (the Moses whom God knew face to face -Deuteronomy 34:10. Moses error is referred to in Deuteronomy 32:51 . Because of this error Moses, who led the Hebrews to the Promised Land was not allowed to enter the Promised Land himself.
So, my point is Saint Peter made a mistake and was corrected by Saint Paul. Saint Peter’s error is not an event unique in the Bible. The Bible, being a book that records truth, records the good deeds of God’s servants as well as their errors. There are those who having their own agendas (including Muslims) will try to twist/ interpret the events recorded in the Bible for their own purposes. This is my advice to you Talib. Do not play around or twist the words of the Bible. You are playing with fire. If you do finally get burnt, it is with the fire from hell. Be careful, please.
To all
I shall be away for about a week because of work. God Bless.
Heya ‘truth’,
I know you’ll be away for a week. But ah…
“Do not play around or twist the words of the Bible. You are playing with fire. If you do finally get burnt, it is with the fire from hell.” – ‘truth’
“Now, what can be more lame than a Christian who denies the fact that the Bible has been changed at least once by man. Please do entertain us with your lamest explanation regarding 1 John 5:7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum). ” – Confused by Paul
Well buddy, looks like one scribe is already confirmed as hell that he is going to get burnt in hell then. And only God knows how many more of them are gonna to get it too.
Peace out bro.
To truth,
I can summarize the main topics of this discussion is:
1) The definite divinity of Jesus.
Eric asked you where is in Bible Jesus exactly ask his follower to worship him. You presented Matthew 28:9 to show that his followers DID worship him.
When Syukri nullified your proof of Jesus divinity by showing various translations of Bible that the word actually mean ‘bow’ or ‘ respect’, you did not accept it as valid and demand the Greek original Bible. When he present to you that the word is ACTUALLY bow and respect in Greek, ( but unscrupulously changed to suit trinitarian belief ), instead of accepting your mistake of presenting the wrong proof, you jumped to another topic by saying that the core Christian belief does not originated from Greek manuscript.
You did not defend your proof of divinity of Jesus in Matthew 28: 29. You even ADMIT the mistake of translators.
2) Core Christian Belief
When Syukri asked you where then the core christian belief come from. You said said it come from those who wrote them ( eg; Peter and Paul ). When Syukri show the proof that most of the authors of Bible are unknown like Matthew and Peter, you cannot clearly refute it, instead you commented on 8 Oct :On Christianity, I will accept comments from Muslims who say that Christianity is more “confusing” and complex. These statements do not affect the truth of Christianity. My thoughts at this moment is that the truths of CHRISTIANITY is NOT SIMPLE, or EASLIY UNDERSTOOD.
Obviously this is not an answer but an lame excuse from someone who can’t understand. If you go to court and use this excuse to explain your truth/innocence, NOBODY expect your truth/innocence to be duly accepted.
Clearly our discussion from beginning are not based on emotional ( like cursing etc ), but rational whereas we present our PROOF. I present the proof from Bible to uphold my point so do you. But you choose to say that your belief is not easily understood. If you don’t really understand your faith, what is the purpose of this website in the first place? Just believe you faith as it is. No need to evangelize, because in order to evangelize, you need to rationalize, explain and make people understand.
With regard to my request to you to comment about the authorship of First Peter and Second Peter, you stated:
This last sentence suggest two possibilities. Saint Peter wrote one letter but not the other, OR Saint Peter used two different secretaries for each letter, that is why there is a difference in style between the two letters. If Saint Peter used two different secretaries, then there is no problem. Then Talib, why did you even bother to bring this up in the first place. Are you trying to create doubt in the minds of Christians when there is nothing to be concerned about.
To end the statement, you said: The rest of your writing looks like “cut and paste” opinions of experts who even disagree among themselves. I do not feel inclined to reply. I wonder if you even read through them, thought about them and fully understand the experts points.
My reply: You said that you read ALL the comment and fully understand the expert points but don’t feel incline to reply. Why is it so, is that because it will not support your claim?
First, even if Peter use two secretaries to write the scripture, it still bring doubt to readers. Like, why is an inspired author of Bible need to use secretary? Isn’t his inspirational expression ( from god as Christian Christian believe if I may suggest ) suffice him to write a sacred scripture?
Second, below is the expert opinion that you don’t incline to reply. In the salutation of the First Epistle of Peter the writer refers to the diaspora, WHICH DID NOT OCCUR until 136. Read yourself:
1 Peter 1:1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
This show that this ‘Peter’ is not Apostle Peter who was with Jesus. The name and historical record have proven opposite in SINGLE VERSE!
Third, scholar indicate even in early times there was CONTROVERSY OVER ITS AUTHORSHIP, and 2 Peter was often NOT INCLUDED in the Biblical Canon; it was only in the 4th century that it gained a firm foothold in the New Testament, in a series of synods. In the east the Syrian Orthodox Church still did not admit it into the canon until the 6th century.
Therefore, scholar are not in disagreement about the authorship of First Peter and Second Peter as you claimed. They are all agreed that the two epistles was not written by The Apostle Peter himself. Only Christian like you are in disarray with regard to the authorship of this two books.
So the question remains and still unanswered by you. Who wrote the books?
For readers information, Christian have no answer for this question. That’s why they can’t answer and try to divert all the time. They will say: IT’S TRUE. BUT IT’S HARD TO UNDERSTAND.
Funny right?
I’ve commented Truth, but the reply did not appear. Why?
To Eric
I wrote -“Is it a criteria for establishing the truth that the true religion must be simple?” – ‘truth’ – (as quoted by Eric, Oct 9,2009). I had also stated “As far as I am concerned, the true religion has only to be true. If a particular religion is true, then we have to accept it whether it is complex or simple. -’truth’ Oct 8, 2009, 10:40pm.
Your reply to my question: “Is it a criteria for establishing the truth that the true religion must be simple?” -’truth’
“Yes. It just shows the mercy of God unto us by allowing easy access to His true religion.” – Eric, 9 Oct,2009.
I am stating ,now, I can only be certain that the true religion has to be true. THAT IS A FACT.
Your statement: ” Yes. It (that is- the idea that the true religion must be simple) just shows the mercy of God unto us by allowing easy access to His true religion.” – Eric, 9 Oct,2009.
That idea is an ASSUMPTION. The idea that – the true religion must be simple- cannot be proven, I think.
So if you are using SIMPLICITY as a criteria for trying to establish that Islam is true, that criteria is NOT VALID.
It would be interesting to see you state other criteria in an attempt to show that Islam is true. It would be very sad for you if even those criteria is shown to be ASSUMPTIONS. (Will your statements be like Syukri’s nonsense statements he made in an attempt to show Quran is superior to Bible; to which I replied on September 14th, 2009. Will you agree with me that Syukri made a nonsense statement (Statement no. 5) on August 31,2009 and use that statement to try to show that Quran is superior to Bible. Are you honest enough to admit that you think Syukri made a mistake. Talib, at least, had the honesty to “take back my(Talib) word with regard to Gospel of Peter.” – Oct 10, 2009.
Heya ‘truth’,
Hey you’re back! That must be the shortest week of all ya. Just 2 days! In anycase, thanks for your reply, as usual.
“I am stating ,now, I can only be certain that the true religion has to be true. THAT IS A FACT.” – ‘truth’
Let me get this straight now. The true religion has to be true…WHAT??? Are you serious??? Oh dude, its a good thing that you are telling me now. I wouldnt want to get fried for following a true religion that is false.
But seriously, is that gibberish that you’ve used buddy? Of course the criteria for a true religion have to be true. Otherwise, it will not be called the True Religion right? Duh.
Adding on…
“That idea is an ASSUMPTION. The idea that – the true religion must be simple- cannot be proven, I think.
” – ‘truth’
So you think? I’m begining to doubt that you really know what you are talking about here buddy. Once again, you have proven your capability of being uncertain with important issues. Remember, I have always asked for clear definite answers. No ‘I THINKs’, ‘POSSIBILITIESs’, ‘ASSUMEs’, ‘Everything written above is just my thoughts’ and etc and etc please.
If you asked me. That idea is not an ASSUMPTION. No ‘I THINKs’ for my part. I am very certain. The message has always been clear, straight forward and consistant. The prophets of old are carrying the same simple message through out the ages. Because God is not a god of confusion my friend.
“It would be interesting to see you state other criteria in an attempt to show that Islam is true.” -’truth’
Those ‘attempt’ my friend, they aren’t really attempt at all. One just need to use their logical mind to see it.
On your comment about Syukri’s statement no.5 now…
“Are you honest enough to admit that you think Syukri made a mistake.” – ‘truth’
So if I do not agree with you, are you trying to tell me that I am dishonest? Is that how it works here? Force it down the throat just like the Doctrine of Trinity which you just don’t bother to conform with the basic layman logic, yet unashamedly accuse people who resist your ‘illogical logic’ as closed mind, blind follower, not a truth seeker etc?
If you asked me, I’ll be as honest as Talib and not as dishonest as Hamzah that I shall admit that it is you who are not talking sense here buddy. Its either you bite the bullet since you’ve asked or you respect my opinion. Period.
I have patiently been waiting for your comments to my reply regarding the obvious signs that the Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God dated Sept 7th 2009. Till now, I hear nothing from you regarding this. Care to share with us your comments now buddy? Provided if you are not “busy” that is.
Take care as always now.
To truth,
I’ve been replying you. But my comment did not appear. I don’t want you to think that I CAN NOT answer you.
Hi Talib,
I believe you. It happened to me too bro. The comments didn’t appear after replying. Try reposting again. That helps.
Salam Eric,
Thank you. I will. But we have to bear in mind that this is their website. They can do what they want, including deleting and stopping the web post as happened many many time before.
Assalamualaikum to all,
peace be upon those who follow guidance
I’m back from my holiday and long work. Reading comment from truth about his comment regarding my comparison to Quran and Bible is hilarious.
Will comment shortly, InsyaAllah
To Eric
Thank you for your comments (dated Oct 15, 2009)
I wish first to reply to you comment – “Let me get this straight now. The true religion has to be true…WHAT???…. Seriously, is that gibberish that you’ve used buddy? Of course the criteria for a true religion have to be true. Otherwise, it will not be called the True Religion right? Duh.”
If anyone were to say that I could have put my points across in a better way, I will not dispute that. I am not here to prove that I am a good writer (and I do not think I am) but to tell all why I think only Christianity is true (which also means that I may need to show why other belief systems is false, I THINK.)
Also you say, -”If you asked me. That idea is not an ASSUMPTION. No ‘I THINKs’ for my part. I am very certain.” Your certainty does not prove anything. There are many followers of many religions who are very certain about the validity of their beliefs. But since many of these religions contradict each other, millions are CERTAINLY WRONG (and that must possibly include you). Also your statement – “That idea is not an ASSUMPTION.” – ,as it stands, is an opinion.
So it appears to me that you are trying to support (what appears to a non-Muslim as) an ASSUMPTION with an OPINION. (This point of the discussion I may address later.)
You say -”The prophets of old are carrying the same simple message through out the ages.” I feel I can agree with that statement but I will not use the word “simple” as whether the message is simple or not is subjective. What would be more beneficial is to discuss whether the message of the prophets of old (by that I mean the prophets of the Old Testament of the Bible) is more at one with the message of the New Testament or the Quran.
You also say -”Those ‘attempt’ my friend, they aren’t really attempt at all. One just need to use their LOGICAL MIND to see it.” – (Eric). So are you saying that by using our heads (logical mind) we can always arrive at God’s truth. If so, why are there different sects/teachings within Islam ( not to mention different religions ).
There is logical reasoning in the Christian religion but God (and His ways) is too great for our “logical mind” to fully understand. That God would wash away my sins with the Blood that Jesus shed on the Cross, I have heard describe as “beyond human understanding”. I cannot say that I fully understand this but I will say that I am grateful. I am grateful for the CERTAINTY of God’s forgiveness. I am at peace with that thought in mind. (Note- What I have just written also is a reply to the statement -” …Doctrine of Trinity you just don’t bother to conform with the basic layman logic,”. The trouble with” basic layman logic” is that it is limited. I am just thinking here, but can a Muslim explain Allah and all his ways with ” basic layman logic”? Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Allah is greater than that.
You say – “On your comment about Syukri’s statement no.5 now…
“Are you honest enough to admit that you think Syukri made a mistake.” – ‘truth’
So if I do not agree with you, are you trying to tell me that I am dishonest? …etc” Eric.
Syukri asked me for a YES or NO answer ( to which I replied on Sept 15, 12:32am) and I am asking you now YES (Syukri is wrong) or NO. I guess you know that if you say YES, Syukri will look stupid. If you say NO you, (ERIC) will look stupid to all because the error of Syukri’s writing is obvious here. So I consider your lack of a YES or NO reply and the words after that as an evasion. You do not want to answer. I believe you do not want to answer truthfully. You wrote that you want me to respect your opinion but a YES or NO is your opinion. That is one opinion, it appears, you are afraid to give. So that is one opinion I do not know and cannot respect.
‘Truth’,
“I shall be away for about a week because of work.” – ‘truth’
Are you out of job now buddy? It hasn’t been a week and you are already replying in great length.
“I am not here to prove that I am a good writer (and I do not think I am)” -’truth’
I 100% totally agree with you buddy. Because I don’t seem to get the angle on where you are going here with your gibberish replies.
So, are you done now? If you are, I shall not say further but to let the readers judge for themselves as how you have always put it.
Be advised, DO NOT take this as me conceding defeat to your latest attempt in diversion. In fact, I would love to engage in an argument with you. But if I do that, not will it only be a waste of time but that will also just leave room of opportunity for you to evade my earlier questions which are more relevant, AGAIN.
So, start being focused and comment on my reply dated Sept 7th 2009 at 9:14 am regarding the obvious signs that the Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God. And also my question of who commanded us to worship Jesus since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so.
It is more than ONE MONTH now THAT YOU HAVE EVADED THAT QUESTION. Do not attempt to evade again this time. Unless if you are trying to run away from it.
Looking forward to be entertained by you again buddy. Provided if you can.
To Eric
I pointed out what I thought was Talib’s error and he took back his words (the relevant words, at least) – [ see Talib's post -Oct 10,2009]. I respect his honesty.
I pointed out Syukri’s error to you and you do not take a stand as to whether he is right or wrong. I ask for a YES or NO answer but you do not give it. And you say “Be advised, DO NOT take this as me conceding defeat ….” Eric 18th, 10:30am. I am not asking you to write a long essay ( and I know you are capable of that). No reply from you about this issue, I believe, is not because it takes too much effort to reply. How much effort does it take to reply YES or No. You can do it in one short sentence. The readers will come to their own conclusion. And I think the conclusion will not be good for you.
Regarding what you wrote on Sept 7th 2009 at 9:14 am, I shall reply when I am more free and if the Lord allows. I chose not to reply earlier as I felt that it was easier to reply to other issues (such as the wrong idea that Christian beliefs arose through faulty translations) and be seen to be right.(There is at least one honest Muslim out there who has agreed with me about something, so I cannot be brushed off as being completely wrong, illogical and talking “gibberish” ) Also, I was hoping for others to reply as I do not want to be the only Christian writer here. Work calls. Peace out.
‘Truth’,
“I ask for a YES or NO answer but you do not give it.” -’truth’
Oh really? Did you? Specifically like Syukri’s where he clearly demanded for a Yes or No answer? You didn’t specifically asked for a YES or NO from me buddy. Go read that first post of yours regarding this which was on Oct 15th, 2009 at 7:03 pm again and tell me where you did.
For your info, a specific demand for a YES or NO answer will look like this:
“Say yes or no because I don’t want to waste my time…” – Syukri, Sep 12th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Whereas yours looks like this:
“Will you agree with me that Syukri made a nonsense statement (Statement no. 5) on August 31,2009 and use that statement to try to show that Quran is superior to Bible. Are you honest enough to admit that you think Syukri made a mistake.” – ‘truth’ Oct 15th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Coming from someone who expects other people not to write long essays, that sure is a mouthful for a demand of a short YES or NO answer isn’t it? And for a question, it doesn’t even comes with a question mark buddy. So, where exactly is this specific YES or NO of yours?
Still can’t find? No? Alright, since you didn’t asked me specifically, I THEN DIDN’T FEEL OBLIGED TO ANSWER YOU IN THAT MANNER. Simple as that.
“…if you say YES, Syukri will look stupid. If you say NO you, (ERIC) will look stupid to all because the error of Syukri’s writing is obvious here.” -’truth’ Oct 18th, 2009 at 5:48 am
With statement like that, it is obvious that you are forcing it down the throat buddy. Its just in your culture isn’t it? Since my honesty in answering will not count for you in this case, so whats the point of me answering?
Your words just reminds me of what an Elementary school kid would typically do when he is desperate for other kids to side him during an argument. It is just so typical of their cliché of “Its either you are with me or you are stupid.”
In any case now, on seeing that you insist for a one word answer, I then shall give it to you just so to end this insignificant diverted topic of yours. Here it is…NO. And I will also add that there is NO “OBVIOUS ERROR” in Syukri’s writing on that point at all, 100%. And the only one that will look stupid now will be you for behaving immaturely in handling this. Take note that I am using the word stupid here is only because you have used it first. Otherwise it will not be there. Let the readers decide now.
“Regarding what you wrote on Sept 7th 2009 at 9:14 am, I shall reply when I am more free and if the Lord allows.” -’truth’
I really hope you will not disappoint me by using that as an excuse for you to escape from it. I have been disappointed many times before. Because you see, you are not the first Christian I spoke to who evades that question.
Peace out to you too buddy.
To Eric
Thank you for your comments.
You say – “So, start being focused and comment on my reply dated Sept 7th 2009 at 9:14 a.m. – regarding the obvious signs that the Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God. And also my question of WHO COMMANDED US TO WORSHIP JESUS since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so.” – Eric, Oct 18, 10:30am.
What you wrote above contains two statements. I wish to address the second one first (which I placed in CAPITALS.) as the reply is shorter. (And I am not in the mood to write longer replies today)
I wish to quote : Colossians 1:15 – 20 (NIV) -15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,…… 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood shed on the cross.”
Reading the above quotation from Colossians, which is a letter from Paul and Timothy ( Colossians 1:1 )it is clear that Jesus created all things (verse 16).( See also John 1:1-3).
Immediately, we see Jesus being referred to in a way that indicates Jesus is more than an ordinary man. Jesus existed before he appeared as a man on earth because it is stated that he created all things.
For the sake of discussion, let us say that I agree with you(Eric) that there is no command in the Bible for us to worship Jesus( and I do not know of any- from memory); there is still the problem (for Muslims) of statements in the New Testament that Jesus has existed since the beginning of time(at least) and that he created all things. (I heard of one heretical sect that believes Jesus is the first created being, or angel though not God. This still contradicts what Muslims believe.)
So, Eric, your question of” who commanded us to worship Jesus since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so” is MEANINGLESS because even if there are no such commands; what is written about Jesus in the New Testament clearly contradicts Muslim’s belief about Jesus (whether Christians worship Jesus or not). There lies the problem for Muslims.
You, Eric, are playing games with words. What is your view of the verses I have quoted about Jesus creating all things and having existed since the start of creation (at least). Is Jesus an angel? Your statement, even if IT IS LITERALLY CORRECT, is in reality too WEAK a POINT to be used to try to show that Jesus is not God. (Actually I do not consider it a point at all). I cannot stop you from using it, but my personal view is that to do so will make you look desperate. (Also, before you ask me, let me state that I do not know -from memory- of any such direct command to worship Jesus. And my mainstream Christian beliefs has not been affected by the realisation of the lack of such a direct command in the Bible.)
‘Truth’,
“Thank you for your comments.” – ‘truth’
You’re welcome. And thank you too for your reply, I am thoroughly entertained by it as always.
Ok, I shall be as brief as possible here since you are in no mood for long replies. Now let us begin.
“So, start being focused and comment on…my question of WHO COMMANDED US TO WORSHIP JESUS since there are no commandments in the Bible that tells us to do so.” – Eric, Oct 18th, 2009 at 10:30 am
“…let me state that I DO NOT KNOW -from memory- OF ANY SUCH DIRECT COMMAND TO WORSHIP JESUS…” – ‘truth’, Oct 21st, 2009 at 2:35 am
So from memory, you finally do admit that there is no such direct command to worship Jesus after all. Thank you. That is all I need to know from you.
Since THERE IS NO memory of any SUCH DIRECT COMMAND TO WORSHIP JESUS and there is clearly NO DIRECT WORD FROM GOD Himself TO do so, who is the one that is playing games with words now buddy since you yourself WORSHIP JESUS?
Looking forward to your reply now regarding the obvious signs that the Bible did point out to the fact that Jesus is not God.
Peace out now buddy.
To Eric
Today I wish to reply to your post on Sept 7, 9;14am.,2009. You stated many things there so you should not expect a short reply. (I intend to answer in parts as it is easier for me to write in this way.)
Part 1
My reply has to do with the nature of God. I can only reply by first trying to explain the Holy Trinity (as I understand ). First, a bible verse – ” All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Jesus). Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” … (Matt 28:18-19). The Holy Trinity is mentioned.
The example that I like, that I heard used to explain the Holy Trinity, is “fire”. When we see a fire, we are aware of the flame, the light that the flame gives off, as well as its heat. So we have three elements in a fire. Can we have fire without light being given off, or a fire without heat. So the three elements in a fire (that is flame, light and heat) are connected; they are one (though we can distinguish three separate elements). (I could say, for the point of discussion, that God the Father is the flame, Jesus is the light, and the Holy Spirit is the heat of the flame. However I believe we are in danger of falling into error when we try to use the material world to explain the nature of the Trinity. This example is useful up to a point.)
In the spiritual world, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one God. The Father has the same substance as the Son as well as the Holy Spirit. So God the Father is divine, the Son is divine and the Holy Spirit is divine. However, though the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same in substance and therefore equally divine; the Father, Son and Spirit appear to have different roles.
Saint Peter says that the people of God “have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood” (1 Peter 1:2) NIV . “It is clear from this verse that each person of the Trinity has a function or role in the world. The Father chooses, the Spirit sanctifies, and Jesus redeems people with his blood that he shed on the cross.” -James M. Arlandson (from Answering Islam page) . Also the same writer says”.. They are equal to each other in their divine attributes, but the Son and the Spirit are SUBORDINATE in their roles.” – CAPITALS mine. It is this difference in the roles that results in such statements that you, Eric, quoted :“my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28). I wish now to address issues you brought up when you quoted Bible verses.
Some points appear more sensible than others. For now, I wish to highlight the following which shows your lack of knowledge (or error) of what Christians believe (or is this a deliberate attempt by you to mislead). You say:
‘GOD IS EVERLASTING – “Now unto the King, ETERNAL, IMMORTAL, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever” (1 Timothy 1:17)’. Then you say :
‘JESUS WAS CREATED – “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, MADE OF A WOMAN, made under the law.” ‘ – Eric. (CAPITALS MINE).
Your point here is NONSENSE because Christians will tell you that Jesus took on human form about 2000 years ago. (So in one sense, as I understand it, the human part of Jesus was created) But the Divine part of Jesus has always existed. So your statement that “Jesus was created” which suggests that Jesus was a creature (a created being that did not exist before a point in time) is wrong and misleading. (Please also read -: Colossians 1:15 – 20). – END OF Part 1 -To be continued.
To Eric
CONTINUATION OF REPLY DATED OCT. 22, 2009- 12.40 am.
Part 2.
You say:
GOD IS NOT A MAN
“God is not a man, that He should lie; nor a son of man, that he should repent: Has he said, and will not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19)
JESUS IS A MAN
“Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know:” (Acts 2:22)- Eric, Sept 7, 9;14 am,2009.
Here, Eric, I feel in your attempt to show that Jesus is not God, you have missed the point of the verse you quoted (NUMBERS 23:19). You are using the verse to show that God is not a PHYSICAL MAN and Jesus was a physical man. But that is not what the verse in NUMBERS is talking about.
My understanding of this verse is that God (is not talking about whether he is a physical man or not but rather) is talking about His INTEGRITY. “God is not a man, THAT HE SHOULD LIE.” and I am sure you will agree with me that there are men who are liars. Also “..has he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19) which is also about his integrity.
This verse in Numbers is an example of the distinction (difference) between God and man. Here I am talking about the perfect character of God and and the flawed character of man (and not about God as spirit and man as a physical being.)
If we see the verse in NUMBERS in this way, than the verse in NUMBERS is an indication that JESUS IS GOD because Jesus did not lie, and made good whatever he spoke. Jesus is no mere prophet because, among men, only Jesus never sinned or made an error. (Even Prophet Moses and Saint Peter made errors.)
I am amazed that the very verse (Numbers) you, Eric, used to try to prove that Jesus is not God actually is a sign that He is God. God is great.
end of Part 2. To be continued…
salam to all,
I’ve post my comment, but it still did not appear. Is there is some kind of conspiracy to block my certain comment? I know that this is a Christian website, but let’s have fair game.
‘truth’
Now this is what I am talking about. You being focused.
I shall wait for your full reply before I give you mine. This is just to let you know that I am still here. In any case, even though I do not totally agree with you in your reply I will still like to say good job in being focused now.
We are going somewhere here buddy. Now please proceed.
Hi all,
comments are automatically filtered through a spam filter. So some comments do not appeared. I went through the list of spam comments, and recovered what i could. I didn’t find any other comments.
if the future, if your comment does not appear, you can email me at tedfox @ gmail . com
To Eric
Thank you for your kind comments about my being focused. But my attention at this point in time is being drawn to work issues. I do not want to give sloppy replies. I shall continue as soon as I can, if the Lord allows.
‘truth’
No problem buddy. Just take your time there. I really do hope we can engage in a constructive and gracious manner from now on regarding this ya.
Peace out now.
To Talib
I have just read you statements (dated 15th Oct. 2009). They did not appear earlier. You have to ask Tedfox why that is so.
As a reponse to what you wrote there, I wish to state that :
(1) you made an error about the Gospel of Peter and because of that you took back you words (Talib’s post Oct 10th, 2009 at 5:39 pm). I wish to state that I respect your honesty here.
(2) You tried to show that my view of Christianity as not being simple or easily understood contradicts the bible itself. (Talib’s post – Oct 10, 2009, 8.06pm) But my reply on Oct 11, with verses such as 2 Peter 3:15-16 that states that there are ideas within Christian truth that are hard to understand, shows you are wrong. (Perhaps you would be so honest here also as to admit that you have made another mistake.)
(3) You tried to cast doubt about the authorship of First Peter and Second Peter( Talib’s post – Oct 5,2009), but then (perhaps unknowingly) provide an answer to the to an apparent problem there (as I pointed out in my post – ‘truth..’ Oct 12, 2:59am). Here is you third mistake. You appear confused here.
You invite me to reply to what you present as problem questions to the Christian religion. But I suggest to you that what you are trying to do may reveal even more of your mistakes. You have made three mistakes already ( and you have been honest enough to admit to one.) You say -”Talib
Sep 26th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
to truth and light from the Son,
Stop commenting about our faith if you are not sure or else you are only disclosing your inconsistency, embarrassing yourself …..”
If anyone should be embarrassed, it is you ( and I consider these errors as not complex). I do not feel inclined to reply to you as to do so is to waste my time (considering the past nonsense you have written). Others may do so if they wish. Pointing out three of your errors is enough for me. I have tried to share with you the light of the Son but there is nothing I can do if you choose not to see. Have a good life.
To Eric
I was doing some reading and thinking of how to phrase my thoughts in my reply to you when I came across the following passage:
“Jesus Receives The Very Same Worship Given To God
In light of the foregoing NT teaching that Jesus is the Creator of all things, it is little wonder that we find the Lord Jesus saying the following:
“The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, EVEN AS they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” John 5:22-23
Notice that Jesus doesn’t say to honor him as one honors a prophet or one’s parents. Jesus very bluntly says that he must be honored in exactly the same way God is honored, i.e. Jesus is demanding the very worship due to God since the way one honors God is to worship him” – Sam Shamoun – The New Testament on the Worship given to Jesus
Its Significance and Implications for the Deity of Christ (from Answering Islam).
Here is something for all to consider.
Hi ‘truth’
Just a quick one. Thanks for you reply. I have read through it. Will there be anymore coming in? If not, I shall give my reply and thoughts soon. But not so soon though, work calls. Hope you understand.
We’ll talk soon buddy.
To Eric
CONTINUATION OF REPLY DATED OCT. 22, 2009- 12.40 am.
Part 3.
You mentioned: – Jesus is not all powerful -
“Then answered Jesus and said to them; Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he sees the Father do: for whatever he does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does” (John 5:19-20).” Eric – Sept 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am.
My reply has, again, to do with the nature of the Holy Trinity. Although there are three distinct persons in the Holy Trinity; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have only one will. So Jesus is saying that the will of the Father and the Son is one. That is why “… what he sees the Father do: for whatever he (the Father) does, the Son also does in like manner…” – John 5:19.
From Answering Islam page-”…. the Son is one being with the Father, so he never works by himself, but always works with the Father. These are the reasons why Jesus says, “the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing” and “I can do nothing on my own.” John 5:30 A Response to a Muslim Article titled Is Jesus Really God? By Anthony Wales
The verse you quoted also suggest that JESUS IS ALL POWERFUL because whatever God the Father does,” the Son also does in like manner.” Jesus is able to do what God the Father does. (Those who want to find out more can go to the article by Anthony Wales.)
to Eric
CONTINUATION OF REPLY DATED OCT. 22, 2009- 12.40 am.-
Part 4
You Say: -
God cannot be seen
“dwelling in inapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see.” (1Timothy 6:16)
Jesus was seen
“This is now the third time that Jesus showed himself to his disciples, after he was raised from the dead.” (John 21:14) – …. Eric.
Here, I think, is a an example of Muslims trying to publicise what they believe are contradictions in Christian beliefs but in so doing showing again their lack of knowledge of Christian beliefs.
In Exodus 33:18-20 God says no one may see God and live. As I understand it, this refers to God’s appearance as a spirit in his full glory ( as he really is and which no one may see).
However God has chosen to make his presence known by taking on a form temporarily on certain of occasions .
(1) -In Exodus 3:1-4 we read about God speaking from a burning bush to Moses. (The term “angel of the Lord” is used interchangebly with “Lord” and “God”).
(2) – In Exodus 24:9-11 we read about Moses and others meeting God.
(2) – In Acts 2:1-4 – we read about the presence of God appearing as tongues of fire.
In Jesus, the Lord God has chosen to appear as a physical man. This event of God being seen as a man is very special but it is not the first and only time that the Lord God has made his presence known, sensed or seen in this world.
To truth.
I would like to reply to your comment. You said:
(1) you made an error about the Gospel of Peter and because of that you took back you words (Talib’s post Oct 10th, 2009 at 5:39 pm). I wish to state that I respect your honesty here.
Yes. I’m honest and clear from the beginning. I ready to admit my mistake. Unlike you, playing hiding and seeking with your faith.
(2) You tried to show that my view of Christianity as not being simple or easily understood contradicts the bible itself. (Talib’s post – Oct 10, 2009, 8.06pm) But my reply on Oct 11, with verses such as 2 Peter 3:15-16 that states that there are ideas within Christian truth that are hard to understand, shows you are wrong. (Perhaps you would be so honest here also as to admit that you have made another mistake.)
My reply: You have to verified first the authenticity of 2 Peter as I raised before you quote that as you reference. Then we can consider looking at the verses. Until now you have been hiding and not transparent about this matter. For readers who want to know my argument that truth DECLINED to comment, I rewrite as below, show the confusing and contradiction of Peter, interestingly, in one phrases!:
1 Peter 1:1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
This show that this ‘Peter’ is not Apostle Peter who was with Jesus because Christianiy at that time was still in Palestine. The name, places and historical record have proven opposite in SINGLE VERSE!
For someone who like to find my mistake to discredit me, it’s amusing that Truth did not want to comment on this (if this argument is invalid, because he will be happy to comment ‘my nonsense’). This show that he DID NOT HAVE ANSWER TO THIS.
3) You invite me to reply to what you present as problem questions to the Christian religion. But I suggest to you that what you are trying to do may reveal even more of your mistakes. You have made three mistakes already ( and you have been honest enough to admit to one.) You say -”Talib
Sep 26th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
to truth and light from the Son,
Stop commenting about our faith if you are not sure or else you are only disclosing your inconsistency, embarrassing yourself …..”
If anyone should be embarrassed, it is you ( and I consider these errors as not complex). I do not feel inclined to reply to you as to do so is to waste my time (considering the past nonsense you have written). Others may do so if they wish. Pointing out three of your errors is enough for me. I have tried to share with you the light of the Son but there is nothing I can do if you choose not to see. Have a good life.
My reply: I seem confusing, right? But for someone who accept ‘confusion and hard to understand’ as non-deterrent to truth, why can’t you accept that as an acceptable statement? Why you say that was nonsense? This show that, deep bottom in your heart ( and in everybody who is reading this ) that WE don’t accept confusing and contradiction as TRUTH. ( like Jesus is a man ( created ) and a god ( uncreated ) at the same time. How can created living is uncreated living at the same time? It’s like saying someone/thing is existent and nonexistent at the same time.)
For you info, I was born a Muslim, then ‘inclined’ to Christianity ( I didn’t declare and change my identity though ). But I was like Christians worldwide, affiliated to Christianity but non-observant. When I read baffling comment from Truth, it was natural for me to advise him to stop commenting about things that will disclose more about illogical things in this faith.For me then, faith is between you and God, it’s personal, not for argument.
Praise be to Allah, the witty argument from Eric and objective explanation from Syukri ( I notice he tries his best to construct his argument clearly using beautiful layout and reference ) made me rethink about Christianity especially when I notice Truth trying to deviate all the time and using repetitive unresolved proof. ( like using 2 Peter to show complexity of Christianity but decline to bring proof of author authentication as requested before using it ).
I was like synthesized Chinese before who think that everything white, European, ( name, dress, culture, religion ) are cool and unfortunately, correct.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/20/news/20iht-sing.2.t.html
Now, I realize that being a coloured Christian, I was never subconsciously accepted by my white ‘brethren’ ( yes, superficially especially if you say you have left Islam ). My further study confirmed that Christianity is a racist religion divided by geographical boundaries, colour and languages.
Wikipedia is correct ( Truth does not like wikipedia, because even neutral sources confirms the irrelevance of Christianity ) when it states:
Worldwide, Christians are divided, often along ethnic and linguistic lines, into separate churches and traditions. Technically, divisions between one group and another are defined by doctrine and church authority. Issues such as the nature of Jesus, the authority of apostolic succession, and papal primacy separate one denomination from another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
Talib
To Eric
CONTINUATION OF REPLY DATED OCT. 22, 2009- 12.40 am.-
Part 5
I believe you stated as proof that Jesus is denying he is God in the following verse:
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God” (Luke 18:19) – Eric, Sep 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am.
Here is another example of Muslims trying to make the Holy Bible say what it does not say.
The question “Why do you call me good?” is just that; a question. A view I heard of this verse is: Jesus was not denying his own goodness. Jesus may also have been encouraging the person he was talking with to consider the full identity and nature of the One the person was addressing.
The next part of the verse”…No one is good but One, that is, God” is another true statement that does not say that Jesus is not God.
Luke 18:19 therefore does not say that Jesus is not God.
To Truth,
Another baffling explanation from Truth. He said:
The question “Why do you call me good?” is just that; a question. A view I heard of this verse is: Jesus was not denying his own goodness. Jesus MAY also have been encouraging the person he was talking with to consider the full identity and nature of the One the person was addressing.
My comment: First, you are not sure of your answer, you just heard a view, second you said ‘ Jesus MAY also…’ showing your uncertainty.Third,if we read Jesus statement, it is not a encouragement or confirmation about him being good, but a denial and disapproval!
( whine )Just look at Christians twisting and spinning their own book to suit their desire.
Read from your Bible commentator about this verses from Biblegateway :
Most of the account’s DIFFICULT ASPECTS come at the start. When the rich ruler calls Jesus good, the teacher REBUKES him. Apparently Jesus wants to WARN the man not to be impressed by human credentials–a problem Jesus will face later in his own life, when the Pharisees challenge his authority (20:1-8). Being excessively tied to credentialed teachers might distract the man from pursuing God. God alone is good; he is the One who deserves attention and allegiance, a key Old Testament theme (1 Chron 16:34; 2 Chron 5:13; Ps 34:8; 106:1; 118:1, 29; 136:1). Jesus is not replying to deprecates himself, but qualifying how the man views the teaching office in general. The teaching role, even for one who does it well, is not to be overly exalted. Jesus’ REFUSAL TO ACCEPT THE MAN’S FLATTERY also warns the man that Jesus will shoot straight with him.
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Luke/Humility-Trusting-All-Father
Therefore, the question” Why do you call me good?” is a rebuke, denial and refusal of his goodness in comparison to god, not as you cunningly tried to make us to understand as encouragement or approval of his goodness.
Talib
To truth,
Allow me to comment your reply to Eric about whether or not god can be seen on October 31. Eric said that god can’t be seen which I agree with him, and you said that god can be seen, in order to validate Jesus appearance as physical human and can be seen, but still can be god. Your argument goes as below:
In Exodus 33:18-20 God says no one may see God and live. As I understand it, this refers to God’s appearance as a spirit in his FULL GLORY ( as he really is and which no one may see).
However God has chosen to make his presence known by taking on a FORM temporarily on certain of occasions .
(1) -In Exodus 3:1-4 we read about God speaking from a burning bush to Moses. (The term “angel of the Lord” is used interchangebly with “Lord” and “God”).
(2) – In Exodus 24:9-11 we read about Moses and others meeting God.
(2) – In Acts 2:1-4 – we read about the presence of God appearing as tongues of fire.
My reply:
First, can you explain the pharase :God’s appearance as a spirit in his FULL GLORY’ as you stated. Does that claim means that there is occasion that God appear in His LESS GLORY? Or do you mean that God’s glory flactuate sometimes?
Now, my full reply.
1) there is striking difference between ‘angel of the Lord’ and Lord/god. The usage of the word interchangebly only show inconsistency of the statement. Beside, the word lord or god also a general term that used also for satan, not necessarily refering to the ultimate one God. The majority of translation using ‘angel of the lord’ show that the word is not referring to the unseen god who sent Jesus. I wonder how can you depend the word that used interchangebly as a proof. This only show your lack of concrete evidence and desperation.Even all commentaries agreed that it was ‘ angel of the lord’.
http://bible.cc/exodus/3-2.htm
2)Moses with others meeting God did not mean that they see Him physically as they see Jesus as human.
Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
Now please read Henry’s Concise Commentary on the Bible about this verses:
The elders saw the God of Israel; they had some GLIMPSE of his glory, though whatever they saw, it was something of which NO IMAGE NOR PICTURE could be made, yet enough to satisfy them that God was with them of a truth. Nothing is described but what was under his feet. The sapphires are the pavement under his feet; let us put all the wealth of this world under our feet, and not in our hearts
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/Matthew-Henry/Exod/Glory-Lord-Appears
3) Presence of God is not necessarily physical or in a certain form. When we pray, we feel the presence of God, but we don’t see him. We also sense the presence of God when we adore his wonderful creation like beutiful sea and sky ( or fire ). But we don’t say that sea and skies ( and fire ) is the image of god!
Therefore, I would like to insist that God can’t be seen, but Jesus can be seen, thus proving his humanness. Just ponder why your explanation is not tally with your Bible commentors. If it proves something, it only prove your disagreement, contradiction and disarray.
Talib
Allow me to comment again your reply to Eric on Oc 28.
“Then answered Jesus and said to them; Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what he sees the Father do: for whatever he does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does” (John 5:19-20).” Eric – Sept 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am.
You said that above verses only confirm Jesus divinity.
My reply: The above examples can suggest that Jesus is subservient to God and Jesus is rather impotent (rather than omnipotent) without God.
Jesus,a mesenger of god, he will do and follow whatever his Master does, out of obedience. Just like a child will learn and do whatever his parent do like talking, eating and behaving, Jesus also do whatever his god is asking him to do, such spreading the message of love and truthfulness. When a mesenger, or a child say or do whatever said and done by his master or parent, no one say that the mesenger and child are EQUAL in term of power, accaountability and right to their respective master and parent.
Finally, please answer this direct question:
1. Can God do everything himself?
2. Can god be dependent?
Talib
Allow me to comment on October 25.
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” John 5:23
You said:Notice that Jesus doesn’t say to honor him as one honors a prophet or one’s parents. Jesus very bluntly says that he must be honored in exactly the same way God is honored, i.e. Jesus is demanding the very worship due to God since the way one honors God is to worship him” – Sam Shamoun – The New Testament on the Worship given to Jesus
Its Significance and Implications for the Deity of Christ (from Answering Islam).
My reply:First, where Jesus said worship him? Honouring is very general word. You can use the word for parent, county, god etc. But the word worship is only for god. This what the proof is lacking here.The word worship is nowhere to be found.
Second, it’s natural that we demand our mesenger,our representativ even our guest or those who associate with us to be respected accordingly, just like ambassadors are treated like prime minister with immunity etc, but in the larger perspective, there are not the same/equal in term of power and right.
Since Jesus carries the message of god, it’s natural for god to demand his mesenger to be honoured, and for his mesenger to claim his right of honor. But it does not not mean equality,ie; worship.
Jesus also spoke to his disciples: Luke 10:16The person who listens to you listens to me, and the person who rejects you rejects me. The person who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
the statement above show that Jesus is demanding his disciple to be listened, accepted, obeyed and respected just like him. Does that also mean that Jesus disciple also need to be treated like him ( in your case, like a god )since Jesus said the person who rejects him rejects the one who sent him?
Honouring the mesanger of god does not make the mesenger equal to god, just like honouring the disciples of the mesenger does not make the disciples equal to mesenger!
Talib