Pls do not persuade those Malay born Muslim to be Christian
301 Comments Published by shah May 20th, 2008 in Pagesi guys
I personally think you are guys are lost. Pls do not persuade those Malays to be a Christians, especially if there are born as a Muslim.
Islam and Christian have so much similarities BUT not the same at ALL!!
Please define Malay ? if u are malay and religion is ISLAM. Pls do not be a Christian !
Bro,
Pls define Islam ?
Pls define Christian.
If you guys ar not Malay, go ahead and embrace any religion but you are always welcome to be a Muslim and the religion is ISLAM.
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Popularity: 67% [?]
Hi Brother Shah,
I can see your impassionate plee not to persuade Malays who are born Muslims to become Christians.
I would say that this does not happen all the time. In fact rarely.
1. There is always a certain restraint on speaking to Malay-Muslims about Christianity in countries such as Malaysia or even Singapore.
2. Most of the time, the Malays that embrace Christianity are those who have been on their own personal spiritual journey such as mine. Nobody preached to me or evangelized to me. But it was my own personal decision. And this would be the usual course of a Malay embracing Christianity.
I do understand that this is an extremely sensitive topic, but i hope i can clarify and bring to light some misconceptions and misunderstandings that we have.
Being Malay does not mean this… Malay=Muslim.
So for example if i put this logic, then… Chinese=Buddhist, Indians=Hindu, Caucasians=Christians?… What about Africans then?
We also know for a fact that we have friends who are Muslims but they are Indians, Chinese, Caucasians and even Africans.
So would the definition of race equates faith?
So, maybe let me begin first with defining what is it really being Malay as a race, not ethinic group(ethnicity is influenced by culture).
This excerpt from Wikipedia sums it up quite well,
“Malays (Malay: Melayu) are an ethnic group of Austronesian peoples predominantly inhabiting the Malay Peninsula and parts of Sumatra and Borneo. The Malay ethnic group is distinct from the concept of a Malay race, which encompasses a wider group of people, including most of Indonesia and the Philippines. The Malay language is a member of the Austronesian family of languages.”
As we can see, the Malay race are a people of Austronesian descent. Meaning we have Malay brothers and sisters right across the South-East Asian peninsula. In the Philippines, most of the brown-skinned, tanned Filipinos are Malays by race, but what about faith? They are Catholics most of them. We also have our Malay brothers and sisters in Indonesia, and in some islands there, they are Hindu.
So what we have here is basically a minor misconception of the definition of race and faith. But extrapolating this misconception, leads to BIG misunderstanding spanning decades of confusion. Even back home here in SG, we still encounter many non-Malay Singaporeans simply assuming that all Malays are Muslims. Not their fault actually, because like i mentioned this misconception has spanned quite a long while in our history.
As to the definition of what is Islam and what is Christianity, that is widely available in any resource centres, ie, bookshops, libraries, even the internet.
God made the world so beautiful and unique to have so many peoples of colours and creeds and we appreciate that He left His open arms of Grace for anyone, any of His peoples to come back home.
Much love to you Brother Shah.
Shalom and be Greatly Blessed!
Emmanuel.
Ok, I’m a Christian, so I might be biased, but what’s all talk about “born” muslim? No one actually born with religion. If one follow his/her family religion, it’s just for convenience. When one, really devoting to his/her religion, whether his/her lifetime religion or the religion he/she converted to, I believe, he/she has really find GOD.
bro. Emmanuel-Reza plz contact me at the e-mail address.
Ni masa di lahirkan tak pernah kena azan kat telinga la ni.. Kafirun…
hi,emmnauel i m keen abt t catholic faith can u advise me.thxs.
SHALOM BRO EMMANUEL-REZA
BRO,EMMANUEL KINDLY CTC ME THRU MY E-MAIL
RICHLY BLESS
how long have u been a christian?it means christian is much more meaningful and powerful rather than islam???
Hi Nor Huda. Christianity is not about who is more meaningful, who is more powerful.
Christianity is personal, it is for the individual to see and receive God’s abundant love in your life.
Just as Islam is for all the nations and peoples of the world to have and to execute their personal choice to receive and believe. So is Christianity.
Faith must not be restricted to our creeds. It would not make any sense. Humanity is created by God. We ALL came from Adam and Eve. So access to faith should be universal, plural and for everyone.
Why are you then so angry? All of humanity have been given free will. It would be prejudice to say that access to any faith is by creed only or a particular creed can only have access to one faith only.
His abundant grace and blessings be upon you.
Shalom,
Emmanuel
i am a malay-muslim, like many of you who commented on this post.
as much as we all find it sad that someone moves away to adopt another religion, we should not be attacking each other this way.
we look after our relationship with God, and He has also mentioned to maintain our relationship with “mankind”. He did not say to disregard our relationships with people outside our faith.
our choices lie in ourselves, and with the assistance of God’s direction. surely all of you can undstd that.
Amen Marina!
You are truly enlightened.
Much Peace, Love & Blessings to you and your family! : )
Shalom,
Emmanuel
baik Marina!
This message is forward to Zai TZM, sebagai manusia kita tak ada hak untuk mengarahkan/menentukan kehidupan seseorang. Apa lagi mengenai pahala & dosa, apakah kita ini Tuhan? Kalau kita ini sujud sahaja berhadapkan kiblat, tetapi akhlak tak ada pun tak ada gunanya. Semua orang ingin mencari keredhaan Tuhan. Keredhaan Tuhan pastinya Rahmatnya yang semua tercari-cari.
Bro:
Please advise about how you decide to associate to certain denomination of Christianity instead of others.
Thank you.
Hi folks and beloved brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus!
Theres actually a fundamental flaw in perception reflected in the question and comment ‘malay-born muslim’. Simply because Malayness is a race, and no Malay is a so-called ‘born muslim’ just as is anyone a ‘born Christian’!
Religious affiliation is really a CHOICE, made by thinking persons who are convinced of that particular religion’s validity.
And remember, one of the largest group of Christians in Asia, and indeed south-east Asia ARE THE MALAYS..:-)
I refer to our Filipino brethren. Ask any Filipino / Filipina who knows, he or she will admit that the Filipinos are of the Malay Race! Go check it out.
So, yes, I am very proud to be of the Malay race, who form the largest group of Christians in Asia, and no body can change this fact.
Peace and love tro all in Jesus Christ, Hamzah.
Hello Hamzah,
Orang Filipina tu guna bahasa apa? Bahasa Tagalog
Kalau kita guna bahasa Melayu adakah mereka faham? Tak Faham.
Jadi mereka bukanlah orang melayu sebab tak guna bahasa Melayu!!
Mungkin ada darah melayu sebab kalau kaji susur galur setiap bangsa dengan mendalam, semua bangsa ada saling kaitan seperti orang Cina ada kaitan dengan orang Korea dan Jepun, orang India ada kaitan dengan Parsi, orang eropah ada kaitan dengan aryan dan sebagainya, tapi itu tidak menjadikan mereka itu sama.
Engkau mengclaim dgn kata2:
Orang Filipina tu guna bahasa apa? Bahasa Tagalog
Salah lagiiii!!! Dan ini adalah BUKTI kedangkalan dan kedegilan awak utk menghadapi kenyataan dengan minda yg terbuka si ‘Malay muslim’…!
Tagalog BUKANLAH satu2nya bahasa sahaja di negeri Filipina!
Ada juga cukup banyak bahasa2 LAIN disana seperti: Cebuano, Visayan, Ilonggo, Ilocano, Baybayin & Bikol DLL.
Kalau anda benar-benar mahu tahu, semua bahasa/loghat2 dll di Filipina (di atas dll) ada sangkut-paut dengan Bahasa Melayu. Kerana semua bahasa2 & lighat2 tersebut adalah SERUMPUN.
Terdapat banyak kata2 & istilah2 Melayu-Tagalog/Filipina yang sama dan/atau sangat mirip sekali, YANG MEMBUKTIKAN keserumpunan tersebut!
Contohnya :
Bahasa Tagalog – Bahasa Melayu
ako – aku (=Saya)
kami – kita/kami
puno – pohon
mata – mata
sayang – sayang
pili -pilih
bili – belih
basa – baca
panik – naik
dalawa – dua
tatlo – tiga
apat – empat
lima – lima
anim – enam
isang libo – seribu
langit – langit
buwan/mulan – bulan
kidlat – kilat
hangin – angin
kuting – kucing
empelaya – peria
mahal – mahal
takut – takut
DLL!
Go here for more confirmation : http://www.blueboard.com/malay/
Tidak hairanlah orang Filipina mengakui diri mereka sendiri sebagai ‘Of the Malay race’.
Jadi amat jelaslah umat Filipina adalah serumpun dengan umat Melayu Malaysia/Singapura/Indonesia.
Dan umat Kristian terbesar dari rantau Asia Tenggara ini adalah daripada rumpun umat Melayu sebenarnya bila kita menghitung umat Kristian Filipina ataupun suku kaum Batak di Sumtaera utara.
‘Malay muslim’ janganlah cuba menafikan kenyataan dan kebenaran di atas ini, kerana kerja kamu itu akan hanya SIA-SIA sahaja
)
Wasalaam, Hamzah,
hey,i really gt angry wif u bcuz nobody is born as a muslim,christian or any other religions. what do you meant by ,’do not persuade the muslims to join christianity? ” and,”if u are an islam plz dun join christianity?” u are so uneducated,whoever who wans to follow Jesus let him or her follows! he came for the sinners but not the righteous! we want to see Heaven being opened to all people! God really hates what u are saying now! i tell u,it is btr to delete this msg cuz i dun want ppl of christianity to get the wrong ideas again. From here,i got to tell u this bro,God doesnt like people who are like you,races and religious!
euu are so going to hell even tough you dont believe in the muslim view.
why must you convert?
thanks to you people, dunia nak kiamat .
bodoh punye kimak , mak kau sundal kepe?
tak ajar?
Allah lagi powerful lah sial.
MUHAMMAD IS IN YOU!
TRUST ME.
EUU THINK I DONT KNOW WHY YOU CONVERT?
BECAUSE YOU WANT MONEY?
AM I RIGHT?
DESPERATE FOR MONEY.
nvm euu can enjoy here, but let see who suffers kat dalam kubor and akhirat..
watch out
name je hamzah perangai macam pukimak.
trust me ure the worst god’s craeture..
Dumb and dumber, the post by Muhd (just next to mine) is soooo funny and lucu.
Funny becos, not even the Quran teaches that Muhammad (‘prophet’) can be or live in anybody!!
And WHY should we trust you, are you better or even truer than the Quran ??
Perasan aja-lah..!
Nobody becomes a Christian to get more money, get that straight into your crooked head, fren!
When Malays masuk Kristian, all their saudara attack them and make life just like a ‘hell’ for them,
So they come to Christ becos of TRUE Faith and the real truth, not like something else.
W’salam Kadir
sembahyang lah kamu sebelum kamu disembahyangkan.
offer prayers before prayers are offer unto you.
6:96 (Asad) [He is] the One who causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night to be [a source of] stillness, and the sun and the moon to run their appointed courses: [81] [all] this is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.
7:54 (Asad) VERILY, your Sustainer is God, who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons, and is established on the throne of His almightiness. [43] He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit, with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command: oh, verily, His is all creation and all command. Hallowed is God, the Sustainer of all the worlds!
It is God who has raised the heavens without any supports that you could see, and is established on the throne of His almightiness; [4] and He [it is who] has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. [5] He governs all that exists. Clearly does He spell out these messages, so that you might be certain in your innermost that you are destined to meet your Sustainer [on Judgment Day]. [6]
Dear Christians,
Did Jesus ever mention that the true religion is Christianity?
Did Jesus followers worship him the way like present Christians do? Who taught Christians to worship?
Who gives authority for Christian pastors to forgive sins?
Which verses in the Bible said clearly that Jesus is God or Jesus and his Father God are equal.
Why is it necessary for Jesus to die for our sins? Isn’t God Almighty?
When Jesus died, means God died? Jesus resurrected after 3 days, so where was God or Jesus after his(God’s) death?
Who administer the world when God “died”?
How did Jesus administer the world during his life, while being with his followers?
Where was Jesus teachings during his teens till he was 30 years old?
Jesus death and resurrection are big events, where is Jesus tomb? Not even a single bible author had recorded the exact location. BTW, no one including Christians have any clue abt Jesus tomb. Could it be just a cruci”fiction”?
Who saw Jesus lifted to heaven besides God? Can anyone see God? It was told in the bible, Jesus said that no one can see or hear God. Since everyone can see and hear Jesus, doesn’t it mean that Jesus isn’t God?
Christians please answer.
To Zaid
You ask:”Did Jesus ever mention that the true religion is Christianity?”.- zaid
Dec 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm.
My reply: The word “Christianity” did not exist during the time of Jesus. An early name for the Christian religion was “the Way” -( Acts 24:14 ). The disciples of Jesus were first called Christians at Antioch (Acts 11:26). This was after Jesus had already gone back to heaven.
Christianity teaches that Jesus is God; that Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. (John 3:16 is Jesus’ words). Jesus taught this.
Christianity is a continuation of the Jewish religion (the true religion at that time) that existed before the time of Jesus (the man). Jesus fulfilled many predictions about a GREAT SOMEONE to come ( called- the Messiah- in Hebrew) that was mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. (Other predictions are to be fulfilled in the future.) Christianity contains Jesus teachings and is a continuation of the true religion. Christianity is the true religion.
To Zaid
You ask:”Which verses in the Bible said clearly that Jesus is God ……?.”zaid,Dec 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm.
I refer you to the verses : John 20:28,29 – 28Thomas said to him (Jesus), “My Lord and my God!” 29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” ( from NIV Bible)
NOTE: Thomas refers to Jesus as God. This statement is in harmony with the verse at the beginning of this book i.e. John 1:1 “1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The Word, who is God, became flesh (i.e. became a man – John 1:14). The Word is Jesus. (John 14-17). Jesus is God.
To Zaid
Sorry for the typo. The last verse in my last post should be – John 1:14-17 . Jesus is the Word. Jesus is God.
Salam…shalom…
kalau boleh jangan sampai menyumpah dalam berbincang.
islam menganjur kita berbahas dengan cara yang baik walaupun kita tidak bersetuju dengan pendapat yang dikemukakan.
bagi saya, adalah salah MELAYU didefinisikan sebagai Islam kerana tidak ada konsep perkauman pun dalam Islam. kalau orang melayu lain nak marah … marahlah saya.
saya sangat tidak taksub dengan konsep melayu itu sendiri….mungkin sebab saya orang melayu sarawak kot.
kalau ada orang melayu nak jadi kristian..itu hak dia …kita nak buat apa…tetapi biarlah dia pilih kristian sebab dia memang percaya dengan agama tersebut bukan kerana disogok dengan wang dan sebagainya.
saya ramai kawan kristian, tapi tak pulak saya nak masuk agama kristian dan di sarawak sekarang mormon semakin bertambah….no hal.
the point is biar hidup beragama bukannya bertuhankan nafsu…
the more you learn about other religions the more you love your own religion…
salam…shalom….(bukan shalom ni org yahudi guna ke?)
To Zaid
You ask: “Which verses in the Bible said clearly that Jesus is God or Jesus and his Father God are equal.” -zaid, Dec 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm
My reply: ( John 5:16-18 NIV ) – 16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. – (NIV)
From my reading, the Jews did not object to the idea that, in one sense, God is the father of all (so we are therefore also sons of God). The Jews may also have said in prayer “God, our Father” OR “God, my Father”.
However the way Jesus was saying “My Father” indicated a special relationship with God. In the language of the time, the Jews understood it to mean that Jesus is claiming/implying that he is equal with God. “18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him” -John 5:18 NIV
a Zaid,
As’kum. Firstly kamu dah silap dan salah besar to call Christianity ‘a religion’ konon! Christ Jesus or Isa al-masih brought men and women into a new and living relationship with God. Ie.to have the ability to KNOW God personally-as a child knows his/her FATHER. In the Injil Matthew 6 He taught His followers to pray like this:
“Our Father Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name…”
Sangat menfaatkan utk zaid kalau anda boleh membaca ayat-ayatnya utk DIRI SENDIRI..janganlah zaid berfirkan SEMPIT – itu sifat seorang yang jahil dan dangkal!
Lagipun, didalam Matius 11 ayat 27:
27″All things have been committed to me by my Father. NO ONE KNOWS THE SON (IE.iSA) except the Father, and NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER – YAITU ALLAH SENDIRI, EXEPT THE SON and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him..”
Jadi hanya Isa sendiri diantar segala makhluk, mengenal Tuhan sebenarnya. And He – Jesus alone has the power and the authority to REVEAL GOD / ALLAH TO WHOMSOEVER JESUS WISHES.
Did He say that ONLY He is the ONLY Way to God??
Yes, of course!
John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I AM THE way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Jsus DID NOT SAY He was just a way to God, but he unequivocally declared that He alone is THE ONLY Way back to God.
Its not some claim by the Christians ho said this – ITS Jesus Christ Himself, Zaid! So, wake up and open your mind!
Hamzah.
Hamzah,
kau tulis sedemikian pada tarikh Jul 30th, 2009 at 4:15 pm:
“Dan umat Kristian terbesar dari rantau Asia Tenggara ini adalah daripada rumpun umat Melayu sebenarnya bila kita menghitung umat Kristian Filipina ataupun suku kaum Batak di Sumtaera utara.
‘Malay muslim’ janganlah cuba menafikan kenyataan dan kebenaran di atas ini, kerana kerja kamu itu akan hanya SIA-SIA sahaja
) ” HAMZAH Jul 30th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Jangan berbanga dan lupa daratan sangat Hamzah. Sebab Kaum Melayu kau sendiri juga adalah kaum terbesar bagi umat ISLAM SEDUNIA dan bukan sahaja di sudut kecil dunia ini! Ini pun tak payah nak masuk kira berader brader Pinoy kau yang kat Manila sana tu.
So, ‘Malay Christians’, janganlah cuba menafikan kenyataan dan kebenaran di atas ini, kerana kerja kamu itu akan hanya SIA-SIA sahaja
Sekian,
Hamzah Bodoh Sombong
Hahahahaa..So What?? Yang saya highlightkan adalah hakikat sudah ada Ribuan malah Jutaan orang Melayu yang sudah beragama Kristian!
Fikiran dangkal kau yang terbang kemana-mana adalah sia-sia saja! Melayu seperti yang di Malaysia mau cuba melarang org melayu di sana memeluk agama Kristian dan mengclaim tidak ada melayu yang beragama Kristian, PADAHAL ADA dengan sangat lumayannya! Inilah bukti penafian kosong sahaja.
Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini, sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian..dan org melayu ini BUKANLAH org islam rata-ratanya-itulah HAKIKATNYA.
Hamzah,
Kau kata sedemikian:
“Yang saya highlightkan adalah hakikat sudah ada Ribuan malah Jutaan orang Melayu yang sudah beragama Kristian!” Hamzah Feb 7th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Hamzah Hamzah, aku kesian tengok kau. Dah desperate sangat sampaikan Melayu setengah masak macam contohnye brader brader Pinoy kesayangan kau tu pun jadi kau sumbat kat dalam statistics sebagai Melayu Christian.
Unutk pengetahuan kau, Kaum terbesar bagi umat Islam SEDUNIA adalah daripada golongan MELAYU TULIN. Melayu yang boleh berbahasa antara satu sama lain dengan menggunakan BAHASA MELAYU seratus peratus dan bukan seperti kau yang hingga Pinoy pun kau amek kira sebab dah kekurangan nombor sangat.
“Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini, sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian” Hamzah Feb 7th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Sebahagian BESAR kau tu berape besar agaknye? Mana bukti nye? Tolong sediakan kenyataan kau tu bersamaan dengan BUKTI KUKUH. Aku mahu tengok STATISTIS Dari kerajaan dari mana mana Negara yang ada orang MELAYU TULIN. Kalau kau tak mampu buat sedemikian, ia cuma akan menjadi satu bukti bagi dirinye sendiri yang menunjukkan satu lagi contoh propaganda yang DAWAGANDIST seperti kau inginkan orang lain percaya.
Sekian
Hamzah Bodoh Sombong lagi
Sememangnya kedangkalan dan kebodohan kaulah sudah jelas terbukti berkali-kali ganda . hahahahaha!
Sudah saya tunjukkan dalam post yang lama, bahawa orang melayu tidak tertakluk HANYA kpd malaysia, Indonesia dan Brunei sahaja! (yg.bermajoriti agama islam)
Malah kerumpunan Melayu termasuk juga umat Filipina, dan juga suku-suku lain seperti Batak di Sumatera dan orang2 Menado di Sulawesi. Suku2 ini serumpun dengan orang melayu, dan jikau engkau tidak dapat menghadapi atau menerima hakikat ini, sudah JELAS terbukti kebohohan dan kedangkalan kau!!
Terdapat banyak kata2 & istilah2 Melayu-Tagalog/Filipina yang sama dan/atau sangat mirip sekali, YANG MEMBUKTIKAN keserumpunan tersebut!
Contohnya :
Bahasa Tagalog – Bahasa Melayu
ako – aku (=Saya)
kami – kita/kami
puno – pohon
mata – mata
sayang – sayang
pili -pilih
bili – belih
basa – baca
panik – naik
dalawa – dua
tatlo – tiga
apat – empat
lima – lima
anim – enam
isang libo – seribu
langit – langit
buwan/mulan – bulan
kidlat – kilat
hangin – angin
kuting – kucing
empelaya – peria
mahal – mahal
takut – takut
DLL!
Go here for more confirmation : http://www.blueboard.com/malay/
Tidak hairanlah orang Filipina mengakui diri mereka sendiri sebagai ‘Of the Malay race’.
Jadi amat jelaslah umat Filipina adalah serumpun dengan umat Melayu Malaysia/Singapura/Indonesia.
Selain itu, ribuan dan jutaan orang muslim Jawa, sudah pun membelakangi islam mereka, dan memeluk ajaran al-Masih Isa yang sejati!
Ini pun sudah LAMA terjadi di pulau Jawa. Pada tahun 1850-an seorang ulamak islam bernama Radin Abas, telah tinggalkan islam dan menjadi pengikut Isa al-Masih yang sungguh-sungguh!
Beliau telah membawa ramai sekali orang muslim Jawa keluar islam dan mengikut seruan Injil yang suci dan sebenar.
Kisah nyatanya adalah dipaparkan di sini :
http://samsth7.multiply.com/journal/item/18
Buka mata kau, orang yang dangkal, dan sadarlah keangkuhankau akan membawa kau masuk kedalam api Neraka..!!
Hamzah Hamzah,
Memang benar kata kata orang pasal kau. Jadi tak pelik lah sampaikan ada orang yang menulis sedimikian mengenai kau:
“…name je hamzah perangai macam pukimak.
trust me ure the worst god’s craeture..” – MUHAAMAD Oct 8th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Anyway, kau jangan nak banyak spelling pasal Pinoy Pinoy kesayangan kau tu. Aku dah jelaskan pada mulanya yang mereka tu Melayu setengah masak. Kau faham tak apa maksud tu setengah masak? Kalau kau tak faham apa maksud aku bila aku tulis sedemikian, ini rata rata menunjukan yang kau tu bukan sahaja Bodoh dan Sombong, malah kau pun BENGAP jugak rupanye. Jadi, malas aku nak repeat telecast. Sebab tak macam kau, aku ada modal lain untuk buat bicara. FAHAM?
Sekarang aku kasi kau peluang kedua untuk menyokong kenyataan kau yang selenge tanpa asas tu mengenai banyak Melayu dah memasuk christian:
“Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini, sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian” Hamzah Feb 7th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Ingat, kau dah cuba sekali untuk elak soalan aku ni dengan berbual pekara merepek. Sekarang aku tanya kau sekali lagi:
Sebahagian BESAR kau tu berape besar agaknye? Mana bukti nye? Tolong sediakan kenyataan kau tu bersamaan dengan BUKTI KUKUH. Aku mahu tengok STATISTIS Dari kerajaan mana mana Negara yang ada orang MELAYU TULIN. Kau faham apa tu maksud TULIN? Nak aku jelaskan? Takpe, aku tak nak kasi nampak sangat kebodohan dan kebengapan kau tu ketara. Kalau kau tak tau, aku syorkan kau gi tanya buntat Pinoy Pinoy kesayangan kau tu since kau mengatakan bahawa mereka tu orang melayu. OK?
Jadi, sila hadapkan BUKTI KUKUH kau tu. Kalau kau termampu. Dan jangan berbual merepek melalui repeat telecast yang dah lapuk tu sebab Propaganda dari Dawangandist seperti kau dah biasa aku temui.
Sekian,
Hamzah Bodoh Sombong dan lagi Bengap rupanye.
#
a Zaid,
As’kum. Firstly kamu dah silap dan salah besar to call Christianity ‘a religion’ konon! Christ Jesus or Isa al-masih brought men and women into a new and living relationship with God. Ie.to have the ability to KNOW God personally-as a child knows his/her FATHER. In the Injil Matthew 6 He taught His followers to pray like this:
“Our Father Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name…”
Sangat menfaatkan utk zaid kalau anda boleh membaca ayat-ayatnya utk DIRI SENDIRI..janganlah zaid berfirkan SEMPIT – itu sifat seorang yang jahil dan dangkal!
Lagipun, didalam Matius 11 ayat 27:
27?All things have been committed to me by my Father. NO ONE KNOWS THE SON (IE.iSA) except the Father, and NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER – YAITU ALLAH SENDIRI, EXEPT THE SON and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him..”
Jadi hanya Isa sendiri diantar segala makhluk, mengenal Tuhan sebenarnya. And He – Jesus alone has the power and the authority to REVEAL GOD / ALLAH TO WHOMSOEVER JESUS WISHES.
Did He say that ONLY He is the ONLY Way to God??
Yes, of course!
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I say: Did He say He is God? NO!
Fikiran kau yg sempit if u think u can reach God only thru Jesus. U noe something, sebenarnya tiada batasan antara Tuhan dgn manusia. Kata Tuhan, Aku adalah rahsia Insan dan Insan adalah Rahsia Ku. (Hadis Qudsi).
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John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I AM THE way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
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I say: The Way to God is not equal to God.
The truth is what Jesus and ALL other prophets brought to their ppl.
The life, well of course, Life or Hayat (One of Allah’s name) is an essence for all human and creatures. If u would like to noe, the attributes of God dwell within us, as in sifat 20 of Islam. Jesus is the life, so do us. Look deeper, where can u find God now? God is within us, and we can see him through “Makrifat”.
When he says “through me”, shows that Jesus is NOT the destination, he is only the path. All prophets or messengers of God lead their ppl to the path towards God, like Moses etc..
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Jesus DID NOT SAY He was just a way to God, but he unequivocally declared that He alone is THE ONLY Way back to God.
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I say: “Only Way” doesn’t make him God. BTW all prophets showed the way to God not just Jesus.
Its not some claim by the Christians ho said this – ITS Jesus Christ Himself, Zaid! So, wake up and open your mind!
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SO Hamzah, read your quotes AND BIBLE again and be honest to urself, NO WHERE IN YOUR BIBLE DIRECTLY says Jesus is God OR NVR ONCE JESUS SAID “I AM GOD” except based on your own biased intrepretation.
As’Kum to all, including the muslim narrow-minded detractors who posted…:-))
Zaid over here tries to think he knows and interprets the Bible even better than Christians themselves…Hahahaha! What a big fat Joke! And Desperate too!
You are the one reading and MIS-reading all your twisted islamic MIS-interpretations into the Gospel passages and falsely and forcefully IMPOSING them on the real context and text of the Scriptures…!
So WHY oh why should we ever buy into your jaundiced and prejudiced ideas against the real teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ??! You all actually make NO sense whatever..
You ALL have been reading and feeding yourselves from anti-Christian, and so your gross misinterpratations are all poisoned by baseless and false POLEMICS, nothing more.
Wanna to REALLLY study about Isa-AlMasih’s divine nature? Honestly??
Here you are (in part only) :
More Evidence for the Deity of Christ from the Third Gospel
The purpose of this article is to supplement my discussion on Luke’s Christology (*), whether Luke believed that Jesus already was or only became God’s Son during his virginal conception. Here, I intend to provide further evidence that Luke believed that Jesus is a preexistent Divine Being who came down from heaven.
Luke records Zechariah’s prayer where he speaks of God visiting his people to redeem and further mentions the sunrise or anatole who visits from on high:
“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people (hoti epeskepsato kai epoieesen lutrosin to lao autou) and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, … And you, child [John the Baptist], will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, whereby the sunrise shall visit us from on high (epeskepsato hemas anatole ek hypsos) to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.’” Luke 1:68-69, 76-79
The word translated as sunrise, anatole, literally means rising such as in the rising of the sun. By extension it can also refer to the rising of a plant since the Greek version of the OT, otherwise known as the Septuagint (LXX), used this precise word to translate the Hebrew tsemach or Branch, an OT title for the coming Davidic Messiah:
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up to David a righteous branch (anatoleen dikaian), and a king shall reign and understand, and shall execute judgment and righteousness on the earth. In his days both Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell securely. And this is his name, which the Lord shall call Him, Josedec among the prophets.” Jeremiah 23:5-6 (Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton’s English Translation; source)
Hear now, Joshua the high priest, you and your neighbors that are sitting before you—for they are diviners; for behold, I bring forth My servant The Branch (anatoleen). For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Joshua, on the one stone are seven eyes: behold, I am digging a trench, says the Lord Almighty, and I will search out all the iniquity of that land in one day. Zechariah 3:8-9 (Source)
and you shall say to him, Thus says the Lord Almighty; Behold the man whose name is The Branch (anatole); and He shall spring up from His stem, and build the house of the Lord. And He shall receive power, and shall sit and rule upon His throne; and there shall be a priest on His right hand, and a peaceable counsel shall be between them both. Zechariah 6:12-13 (Source)
Here is how the Jews explained the foregoing texts (all bold and capital emphasis ours):
… ‘Behold the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will raise up for David a righteous Messiah, and he shall reign as king, and prosper, and shall enact a righteous and Meritorious law in the land. In his days they of the house of Judah shall be delivered, and Israel shall live in security. And this is the name which they call him: “May vindication be accomplished for us by the Lord in his day.”’ (Targum Jonathan, The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, Samson H. Levy (New York: Hebrew Union College, 1974), pp. 68-69)
Say unto him: Thus says the Lord of Hosts saying: ‘Be hold the man whose name is “The Messiah.” He is destined to be revealed and to be anointed, and he shall build the Temple of the Lord. He shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he will bear the radiance, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and there shall be a high priest on his throne, and there be a counsel of peace between the two of them.’ (Ibid., p. 99)
R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Johanan: Three WERE CALLED BY THE NAME OF THE holy One, blessed be He, and they are the following: The righteous, the Messiah and Jerusalem. [This may be inferred as regards] the righteous [from] what ha just been said. [As regards] the Messiah – it is written: And this is the name whereby he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness (Jer. XXIII, 6) (The Babylonian Talmud, Rabbi Dr. I. Epstein, Editor (London: Soncino Press), Seder Nezekin, Volume II, Baba Bathra 75b, p. 303)
God will call the king Messiah after His own name , for it is said of the king Messiah This is his name whereby he shall be called: The Lord our righteousness (Jer. 23:6). (The Midrash on Psalms, William G. Braude, Translator (New Haven: Yale, 959), Yale Judaica Series, Volume XIII, Leon Nemoy, Editor, Book One, Psalm 2.2)
The Rabbis say, “This King Messiah, if he is from the living, his name is David. Ife he is from the dead, his name is David…” Rabbi Joshua ben Levi said, “His name is Branch. ” (Berakoth 2.4)
The above shows that Luke’s readers, who were familiar with the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, would have seen a connection with Luke’s anatole and the Messianic Branch referred to in the OT. Luke’s audience would have concluded that the visiting anatole refers to the coming Davidic Messiah, whom Luke has already identified as Jesus:
“In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!’ But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’ And Mary said to the angel, ‘How will this be, since I am a virgin?’ And the angel answered her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy–the Son of God.’” Luke 1:26-35
What makes this all the more interesting is the fact that the anatole is said to be visiting from on high, meaning from heaven, which suggests that this entity is coming down from heaven. That this is a heavenly visitant can be seen from how the phrase “from on high” is used in the following passage:
“And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high (ek hypsos).” Luke 24:49
The power that Jesus says would come from on high refers to the promise of the Father to send the Holy Spirit:
“In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. To them he presented himself alive after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, ‘you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.’ So when they had come together, they asked him, ‘Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’ He said to them, ‘It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.’” Acts 1:1-8
“Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.” Acts 2:30-33
Thus, the power that the apostles were to receive from on high refers to the Holy Spirit’s descent upon them from the very presence of the Father out of heaven:
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.” John 15:26
The Septuagint uses the phrase in a similar manner:
And the channels of the sea were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of the breath of His anger. He sent from above (ek hypsous) and took me; He drew me out of many waters 2 Samuel 22:16-17 (Source)
For He has looked out from the height of His sanctuary (ek hypsous hagiou autou); the Lord looked upon the earth from heaven (ek ouranou); Psalm 101:20 [Hebrew: 102:19] (Source)
MEM. He has sent fire from His lofty habitation (ek hypsous autou), He has brought it into my bones: He has spread a net for my feet, He has turned me back: He has made me desolate and mourning all the day. Lamentations 1:13 (Source)
The foregoing helps us see that, by saying that the anatole visits from on high, Luke intended to communicate to his readers that the Messiah is a heavenly figure, a being that comes down out of heaven to visit the people. To put it another away, the Messiah according to Luke isn’t merely a human figure but a preexistent heavenly Being that came down to be conceived from the virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit in order to receive a human nature.
Moreover, elsewhere in Luke’s Gospel Jesus is identified as the one who comes to redeem God’s people, specifically Israel:
“Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law, he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said, ‘Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel.’… And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin, and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day. And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak OF HIM to all who were waiting for the redemption (lutrosin) of Jerusalem.” Luke 2:25-32, 36-38
“That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. And he said to them, ‘What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?’ And they stood still, looking sad. Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, ‘Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?’ And he said to them, ‘What things?’ And they said to him, ‘Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. But we had hoped that HE was the one to redeem (lutrousthai) Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.’ And he said to them, ‘O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?’ And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” Luke 24:13-27
“And the angel said to them, ‘Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.’” Luke 2:10-11
“For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” Luke 19:10
“God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.” Acts 5:31
“Of this man’s offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.” Acts 13:23
In light of the above it is very hard not to see that Luke was portraying Jesus as the God who came to visit his people from on high in order to redeem them from their sins.
Luke wasn’t the only author who believed this about Christ since other NT writers taught essentially the same thing, and even used similar language to communicate the same point:
“For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom (lutron) for many.” Mark 10:45
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom (antilutron) for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.”
“waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem (lutroseetai) us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.” Titus 2:13-14
In this last text, Paul identifies Jesus as the Savior God who came to redeem a people of his own. Matthew echoes Paul’s statements:
“‘She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins (autos gar sosei ton laon autou apo ton harmation auton).’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel’ (which means, God with us).” Matthew 1:21-23
Jesus, according to Matthew, is the God who came to be with his people in order to save them from their sins.
There is another Lukan text which supports preexistence. In confronting the religious establishment Jesus posed a question regarding the Messiah’s ancestry:
“But he said to them, ‘How can they say that the Christ is David’s son? For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” David thus calls him Lord, so how is he his son?’” Luke 20:41-44
Here is how the Septuagint renders this particular Psalm:
The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit on My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” The Lord shall send out a rod of Your strength out of Zion: rule in the midst of Your enemies! With You is dominion in the day of Your power, in the splendors of Your saints; I have begotten You from the womb before the morning. The Lord has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord at Your right hand has dashed in pieces kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill up the number of corpses, He shall crush the heads of many on the earth. He shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore shall He lift up the head. Psalm 109 [Hebrew: 110]:1-7 (Source)
The Hebrew of Psalm 110:3 does not help clarify the meaning at this point since the Hebrew text is actually unclear. It is the Septuagint translation which clarifies the meaning or, at the very least, helps us understand what some Jews thought the Hebrew meant.
This may explain why the official Catholic version of the Holy Bible, the New American Bible (NAB), adopted the Septuagint reading for Psalm 110:3:
“Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you.”
3 [3] Like the dew I begot you: an adoption formula as in Psalm 2:7; 89:27-28. Before the daystar: possibly an expression for before the world began (Proverbs 8:22). (Source)
Evidently, the translators of the Septuagint believed that this text supported the view that not only was David’s Lord already existing at the time this particular Psalm was composed, but that he was also there with God before the creation of the world!
The Psalm basically concurs with the theology of the Fourth Gospel which quotes Jesus as saying:
“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed… Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:5, 24
With the foregoing in perspective we can more fully appreciate Jesus’ point: By appealing to this particular Psalm the Lord wanted to call attention to the fact that the Messiah is more than a human descendant of David, he is also his sovereign Lord. Moreover, the context of the Psalm provides the reason why the Messiah is David’s Lord, and therefore greater than his human ancestor; the former is a preexistent Divine figure that was there with God even before David came into being!
This is quite similar to Jesus’s claim of being greater than Abraham:
“‘Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.’ The Jews said to him, ‘Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, “If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.” Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?’ Jesus answered, ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, “He is our God.” But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.’ So the Jews said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being/existence (prin Abraam genesthai), I AM (ego eimi).’ So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” John 8:51-59
Christ explains why he is greater than Abraham and how he was able to see the patriarch, despite the fact that the latter had been dead for approximately two thousand years: Jesus has always existed because, unlike Abraham who was created, he is timeless!
In a similar manner, Jesus is David’s Lord, and therefore greater than the latter, because he has existed even before the world began, implying that he is a Divine Being.
FURTHERMore, Jesus already declared that :
He and God are ONE and the same.
Whoever who saw Jesus Christ, already knows and has seen what God is like – in His nature and His character.
Jesus alone GIVES everlasting life to whoever Jesus chooses.
Jesus Christ alone can FORGIVE THE SINS of sinful people He met and healed.
Jesus Christ was already around as the Logos-the Kalimat-of Allah EVEN BEFORE Nabi Abraham was even born…
and so on and so forth…you get the drift!
Christians NEVER made up all of the above – these are the eyewitness testimonies from the actual people who heard and saw it from Jesus Christ’s own mouth Himself.
Oh yes, your precious muhammad (founder of islam) was not even born yet until SIX HUNDRED YEARS LATER! So, obviously, he could never say thathe heard these statements!
Go get more from here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/luke_preexistence.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/phil_hymn2.html
http://abrahamic-faith.com/Jesus-son-of-God.html
And open your trapped and so-closed mind
If you can intelligently address even 25 percent of these articles above, THEN, you can write back, otherwise, you are just another tin-kosong spilling more worthless nonsense.
Wasalaam. Hamzah.
Sonlight says:
My reply: ( John 5:16-18 NIV ) – 16So, …but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. – (NIV)
I say:
If I call my Father my own Father, then my father and I COULD be equal coz we may share common attributes. However, I am NOT my father. How could Jesus be his Father (God) then, even if Jesus inherits some attributes from God. BTW, there are more about humans that you should ponder, how close we are to GOD than u can ever imagine. God is not in heaven nor in outer space, God is within us and any one God chooses to reveal to him, will only see teh Truth of Oneness in Multiplicity. Only Islam has the answer to this, through “makrifah”. Jesus is just one of the chosen ones, besides other prophets and awliya’ Allah. To achieve makrifah, one has to undergo “internal” cleanses to purify his heart. We can achieve this too, as this is what GOD has willed for every human to seek as the main purpose of God’s creations.
Sonlight says:
From my reading, the Jews did not object to the idea that, in one sense, God is the father of all (so we are therefore also sons of God). The Jews may also have said in prayer “God, our Father” OR “God, my Father”.
I say:
So there, not just Jesus calling God his own Father, but to other Jews too.
Sonlight says:
However the way Jesus was saying “My Father” indicated a special relationship with God. In the language of the time, the Jews understood it to mean that Jesus is claiming/implying that he is equal with God. “18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him” -John 5:18 NIV
I say:
If I walk around telling ppl, hey guyz! Listen here. I am equal to my Father and therefore I am my father coz we have special relationship! Does it make any sense? Yes I have a special relationship with my father, but I am not my Father. Yes, I may agree if u say I may share the same attributes inherited from my Father, but I can’t be my father. As I have mentioned, WE HUMANS, NOT JUST JESUS HAS A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, as God is everywhere within His own Creations, not isolated apart.
Going a little bit further in makrifah, Human is created as a “reflection” of God, inheriting some of the 99 attributes as God has willed. However, what you may see in a mirror, can be similar images of you, where it appears alike but you are still you in your single form. It is not easy to explain this, unless one has experienced it which we call ilmu “Hakikat”.
Rethink about what you have learnt from your bible about Jesus and try to relate.
To Hamzah,
So much of your Cut And Paste elaborated article. I can’ be bothered about all the twisted words you have posted about Islam and your so called Man God Jesus.
Just answer my simple questions.
Do you really know your God? Have you met Him before?
Where is God or Jesus now? Give me specific answers for this.
Prove to me how is God omniscience or omnipotent padahal manusia tak nampak Dia.
If Jesus was lifted to heaven now, where is this heaven?
You say Jesus is God, then He should be everywhere around us. Can you show or explain to me his whereabouts now?
I bet you don’t know these answers. Kau tak kenal siapa DIRI kau, apa lagi nak kenal Tuhan. Kau anggap Jesus Tuhan, sedangkan Tuhan itu berbeza dari makhluk.
Dan satu lagi, kenapa Tuhan nak cipta alam dan manusia sedangkan Dia mengetahui manusia pasti melanggar perintah Dia. Jangan pandai2 mengatakan Tuhan menjelma jadi manusia (Jesus) atau Tuhan mengorbankan “anak”Nya demi manusia. Its all nonsense dan menunjukkan Tuhan kau itu lemah. Fikiran kau ttg Tuhan tu sempit and tak masuk akal. Sia2 Tuhan kasi kau akal, tapi tak berfikir secara logik.
Jgn lupa, give me your own explanations on the questions i posted above.
Silahkan dgn penjelasan kau.
Salam Hamzah,
Selepas engkau tidak boleh menjawab aku dulu, engkau terpekik terlolong di sini pula ya? Hentikanlah kerja cut and paste itu. Itu hanya membuat engkau kelihatan sangat terdesak ( desperado ).
Cuma kali ini engkau sudah tidak mencarut-carut macam dulu. Agaknya sudah bertaubat kot? Tapi engkau tak perlu bertaubat sebab dosa engkau sudah ditebus Jesus. Jadi bolehlah buat apa saja kan?
Gurau sahaja:)
Syukri
To Zaid,
You wrote: “To Hamzah,
So much of your Cut And Paste elaborated article. I can’t be bothered about all the twisted words you have posted about Islam and your so called Man God Jesus.”
Sonlght’s comment : I say that you should be bothered about what Hamzah wrote if he quoted the Bible. Christians try to prove their beliefs from the Bible. e.g. So the Jews said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being/existence (prin Abraam genesthai), I AM (ego eimi).’ So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” John 8:57-59 ( From Hamzah’s writing).
Jesus is saying HE existed before Abraham? PLEASE ADDRESS THIS ISSUE for this verse implies that Jesus is possibly 1) God or 2) an Angel ( because an angel also existed before Abraham.) – Please see the note (P.S.) below.
You also asked me to “Rethink about what you have learnt from your bible about Jesus …”-zaid
Feb 13th, 2010 at 8:56 am.
My reply: What is there to rethink? I have been educated to read and understand. My reading and understanding of the Bible leads me to the conclusion that (the Bible says) Jesus is God.
(I wonder if you can , or want to, read and understand the Bible)
P. S, – Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59) “I AM” being the name God used to refer to himself when he spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:14). So Jesus uses a term that is reserved for God when referring to himself (Jewish term for God). Jesus is therefore saying that he is God. ( Jesus is not an angel but God himself)
Grammatically Jesus should actually say :’Before Abraham existed, I WAS’. But if Jesus had said: “I WAS” it would only indicate that He existed before Abraham (and He is possibly an angel). It would not indicate that He is God. But Jesus deliberately said “I AM” which is also the term by which God referred to Himself (Exodus 3:14). Jesus is saying He is God.
Peace Sonlight,
I shall not argue on the authenticity of Jesus statement in your bible, as its your belief not mine.
I guess you’ve missed my point. I ask you to think about God on the point which both you and I believe. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. How are these so? You conclude that God appeared through Jesus to proclaim the words “I AM” meaning I am God. Hence Jesus is God in human form. How do you prove the 3 “Omnis” I’ve mentioned above?
Answer me then, where is God now after Jesus departure? Isn’t God everywhere then? In Islam, we don’t just learn how to worship. We seek the knowledge to find God and we call it “usuluddin”, ie the knowledge of GOD. As I have mentioned, this is the purpose of GOD’s creations. God willed that we seek to know God through God’s creations. God is NOT male nor Female, Not HUMAN or any of HIS Creations. I believed Christians agree to these points too. In Islam, one who has reached the peak of usuluddin, witness nothing else in this world including himself, except God’s existence. (Jesus is one of them).
Only Islam has the WAY to reach God which is similar to what Jesus and other prophets preached. I reiterate my points again, God is not in outer space nor outside this universe. God is everywhere within His Creations and human is a perfect “mirror” of God’s existence. So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body, which is a fact not just to Jesus, but to those who have reached the peak of “usuluddin”. God chooses to reveal Himself to those who purify his heart and has utmost sincerity to seek God. God says: “When my servant seeks Me in a single step, I will hasten My Way towards him a thousand steps.”
Food for your thoughts:
When you see the SUN (light) shine upon a mirror, you see 2 faces of the SUN, one genuine and the other a reflection. It looks alike, but Existence of the SUN is still in its singular form even if the number of mirrors are multiplied. Think deep about it, or you’ll still craving to find your “PATH” towards GOD which I believe you still are, but can never reach Him.
Peace
To Zaid,
Thank you for you kind reply. You have asked many questions. (e.g. – How do you prove the 3 “Omnis” I’ve (Zaid) mentioned above?..) -zaid, Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Also you asked:”Who administer the world when God “died”?
How did Jesus administer the world during his life, while being with his followers?.. (and other questions)…zaid , Dec 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm.
My reply: If we accept that Jesus is God than so many of your questions would not be problematic.
God is able to do things that is beyond our ability to understand. Just because I do not understand how God is able to do certain things does not mean that He cannot do them. Do you really expect me, the FINITE to fully explain the ways of the INFINITE? (That is why I feel some questions asked by Muslims do not require an answer.)
The real issue is : IS JESUS GOD? (and not : how is Jesus able to do this or that).
But that issue ( the Christian belief that Jesus is God) is the issue that Muslims must say is not true. I am not surprised that you said: ” Zaid, Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Peace Sonlight,
I shall not argue on the authenticity of Jesus statement in your bible, as its your belief not mine.” Sonlight’s note:- This is regarding Jesus’ “I AM” statement in (John 8:58-59) which implies that Jesus is God. (Sonlight, Feb 16th, 2010 at 1:26 am)
Am I correct to say that you do not accept John 8:58-59 as authentic (or that it is authentic – i.e those are actually Jesus words – but Christians misunderstand the meaning.)
Peace.
Peace Sonlight,
Great to have an open discussions without arguments. From my perspective, yes, Christians have misunderstood and misinterpreted Jesus teachings.
This has been mentioned in the Quran
Surah Al-Fatheha- (Surah 1. The Opening)
1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath (The Jews), and who go not astray(Christians).
()added by me.
The Jews from past till present always create wraths and conflicts on earth. Almost every prophet sent to the Jews were mistreated, murdered or tortured by them, including Jesus himself. (But Moslems believe Jesus was saved by God, not crucified).
Islam refers Christians as being misguided and lead astray with the ambiguity of their own teachings. You’ll definitely disagree if I say the contents of bible were corrupted but truthfully bible contents were wrote and compiled with abundant misinterpretations, mistranslations and modifications by each author.
Looking into Islam, I can find the answers and truth in all the teachings brought by the prophets of Allah. Each teachings coincide and compliment with one another. The concept of monotheism is consistent from every teaching brought by every prophet. However knowing God is complex, abstract and not easy to comprehend. Only when God choose to reveal Godself, then one can witness the TRUTH within his inner self. I emphasize the word “I AM”, as the peak of knowing your inner SELF, ie “Makrifat”.
As our beloved prophet Muhammad PBUH said “Man arafa nafsahu, faqad arafa rabbahu”. Those who know his inner SELF, will acquire the knowledge of God self.
God is everywhere, within every soul and God’s entire Creations. Those who gain “Makrifah” will witness this TRUTH. The words “I AM” is uttered when one witnesses none other than the existence of All Mighty GOD over-ruling God’s entire creations. This is the peak of “Makrifah”. As Islam teaches ” Awalludin makrifatullah” meaning “The beginning of religion is knowledge of God”. God can never be his own Creations, but God is never separated from His Creations.
Food for your thoughts:
Water is called river, ocean, ponds, rain, ice and snow depending on its condition and location. For those who know its origin, they will witness that the TRUTH is “water” in all the above.
Get some sense?
Peace
Peace Hamzah,
I admire your enthusiasm to spread and try to convince others on your beliefs. I have went through all your posts, but nowhere I can find Jesus directly declares himself “I AM GOD”.
Most commonly found are indirect quotes like, Jesus is the TRUTH, THE WAY, THE WORD OF GOD, THE ONLY SON, THE LIFE, THE ONLY PATH, THE ALPHA & OMEGA etc..However distinctively we all know Jesus is NOT the Father nor the HOLY spirit. Tell me how could you equate these 3 as ONE?
If you try to relate these 3 as the SUN, its RAYS and HEAT, it only draws near to Islamic principle of Usuluddin, not your Trinity concept of GOD which is flawed.
God is never be separated from His Creations, but God is NOT his own Creations.
Firman Allah: Aku adalah rahsia Insan dan Insan adalah rahsiaKu.
Maqam makrifat di dalam Islam adalah: Syuhudul Kasrah fil Wahdah wa syuhudul wahdah fil kasrah. Itulah rahsia orang makrifat, yaitu memandang yg banyak pada YG SATU, memandang SATU pada yg banyak. Kau tak perasan persamaan antara kedudukan Isa Al Masih dgn apa yg aku sebutkan? Hanya Islam sahaja yg dapat menyampaikan manusia pd PenciptaNya, melalui jalan makrifat.
Fikir2kan lah
Bravo Zaid. Very clear and concise explanation. Thank you
Salam Bro Syukri,
Alhamdulillah, Syukran. Kebenaran sentiasa akan tetap mengatasi kebathilan. Mereka anggap kita umat Islam jahil, sedangkan agama yg mereka sendiri anuti sesat dan tak masuk akal.
Namun sama2lah kita meneruskan perjuangan Rasulullah SAW untuk berdakwah kpd mereka yg jahil dan mendoakan mereka agar diberikan hidayah seperti yg dilakukan Rasulullah SAW.
Ya Allah, Yaa Muqallibal Qulub, Thabbit Quluubana ‘ala diinik. Ya Tuhan yg membolak balik kan hati, tetapkan hati kami kpd agamaMu yaitu Islam). Amin
Wassalam
To Zaid,
You said to Hamzah, : zaid, Feb 17th, 2010 at 5:57 pm ……. I have went through all your posts, but nowhere I can find Jesus directly declares himself “I AM GOD”.
Most commonly found are indirect quotes like, Jesus is the TRUTH, THE WAY, THE WORD OF GOD, THE ONLY SON, THE LIFE, THE ONLY PATH, THE ALPHA & OMEGA etc….(Zaid)
Sonlight’s comment: Not only here (John 8:58-59) did Jesus apply the name of God to Himself i.e Jesus’ “I AM” statement in (John 8:58-59) which implies that Jesus is God. (Sonlight, Feb 16th, 2010 at 1:26 am).
You mentioned “THE ALPHA & OMEGA…” ..Zaid .
This is from Isaiah 41:4 where God says – “Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.” – ESV
In the New Testament we find Jesus saying:” I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” – Revelation 22:13 and Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
So again we see Jesus using terms for God -The First( or Alpha) and the Last (or Omega – this is the last letter of the Greek alphabet like the English letter Z.) and applying those terms to Himself. Again Jesus is indicating He is God.
Other examples: John 11:25,26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,” -ESV
Here Jesus refers to Himself as “the resurrection.”
Revelation 17:14 “14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings,…….” – The Lamb, who is Jesus, is King of king; one of the names by which God is known.
John 14:6 -Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me…” Jesus is THE TRUTH
John 8:12 – Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” Jesus is the LIGHT
The previous verses (starting from ALPHA and OMEGA) contain terms that Christians consider as referring to God. (i.e. : The First, the Last, the resurrection, King of kings, the Truth, the Light).
FYI, I believe those terms (i.e. : The First, the Last, the resurrection, King of kings, the Truth, the Light) is also among Allah’s 99 names.
Jesus is referring to himself by Divine names. I , for one, believe Jesus is saying He is God.
(Muslims will accept that those are terms for the Divine but that it does not apply to Jesus, I believe)
I have shared the verses above for everyone’s consideration. ( They are in cyber-space)
For those who still say: “But Jesus does not say – I AM GOD anywhere in the Bible”, my reply is ” You answer to God on Judgement Day.”
There are other issues that some Muslims avoid in their attempt to discredit Christian belief. e.g
Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59). So Jesus existed before Abraham. What does that make Jesus? God? or Angel?
Also Zaid, you say:-’So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body…. ‘ zaid,Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am,
My reply: You are twisting the words of the Bible. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59).
How does what you say:”So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body..,(Zaid)” tie in with the statement : ” ..before Abraham was(existed)..”(John 8:58-59). Where is the connection? Please show me the connection. I wish to be polite but you are talking nonsense.
Peace sonlight,
I can see you got a bit worked out here to prove Jesus is your God… and desperate too. Cool down man!
You ask me 1 Main Question, where is the connection? I very much like to give you an elaborated explanation, but I bet you’ll never understand my words.
I repeat my questions again,
1) If God is omnipresent, where is God now? You didn’t answer me yet.
2) You relate the 99 names of Allah to Jesus to show Jesus is God. I say here, the 99 names of Allah is NOT GOD. These are only ATTRIBUTES of God and Allah is also one of them. God is not FAR,SEPARATED,ISOLATED OR HIDDEN FROM HIS CREATIONS. If so, you contradict the points of the 3 omni’s.
3) You are not able to explain or have no idea on the 3 omni’s, but you believe that God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Isn’t this blind faith?
4) In Quran, Surah AL-Baqarah Verse 186 God says: “If my servants ask where am I (God). Say I am near.”
I ask you, is your God far away from you now? Tell me where can you find Him? Please explain.
Let me clarify to you on the 99 attributes of GOD. Out of sheer ignorance, you quoted some of the 99 attributes and relate them to Jesus, then claiming “you see now that Jesus is God?”. Why? Because Jesus inherits these attributes so he becomes God? You are still wrong my friend.
God says “I am near”, meaning that God is Not Separated and is within us and his entire Creations. God is Omnipresent, then how can God be absent from this world and us? The attributes of God are only SIGNS of God existence. These SIGNS are within us, inside us and everywhere in the entire universe. All of us inherit these attributes, and that’s how life was formed and come to existence. Inheriting these attributes doesn’t mean we are God, we are still God creations. We inherit these attributes, thus explain our dependencies to GOD.
If you learn about Law of Inheritance, A child inherits certain attributes from his Father and thus there’s a dependency of the child to the Father. THE FATHER CAN EXIST WITHOUT THE CHILD, BUT THE CHILD CAN NEVER EXIST WITHOUT THE FATHER. GET THE POINT?? This is how Jesus and ALL of us are related to GOD, our shall I say OUR FATHER?
You mentioned Jesus is Son of God, and please don’t deny that the jews are also mentioned as sons of God. You literally tried to elevate Jesus by using Upper Case (Son) and use lower case (sons) for others, to prove Jesus is greater than others.
I emphasize here: A Son inherits his Father DNA and some other attributes but will that make a Son his OWN FATHER?
I know God is beyond any descriptions or examples, but I’m just presenting rational points that probably may lead you to think deeper.
God is, NOT ISOLATED, NOT SEPARATED, NOT THE 99 ATTRIBUTES, NOT HIDDEN, NOT FAR. God is close to His Entire Creations and can never be separated, like the Sun and Its Rays.
Can you see our connection to God now?
Peace
Sonlight says:
There are other issues that some Muslims avoid in their attempt to discredit Christian belief. e.g
Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59). So Jesus existed before Abraham. What does that make Jesus? God? or Angel?
Also Zaid, you say:-’So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body…. ‘ zaid,Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am,
My reply: You are twisting the words of the Bible. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59).
How does what you say:”So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body..,(Zaid)” tie in with the statement : ” ..before Abraham was(existed)..”(John 8:58-59). Where is the connection? Please show me the connection. I wish to be polite but you are talking nonsense.
___________________________________________________________
Sorry, just to add my comments on the above. I have actually answered your questions, but you choose to ignore my points.
In Islam, we don’t just learn to worship, we seek knowledge of God and we KNOW GOD like a son knows his Father. We know how we are connected to God, likewise Jesus. My comments:
QS. Al-A’raf 172
7:172 When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam – from their loins – their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): “Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?”- They said: “Yea! We do testify!” (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: “Of this we were never mindful”:
It is mentioned in the Quran, that God has created our Ruh (Soul or spirit) long before the existence of the entire universe. Our Ruh has testify that God is our Lord, even before any human including ADAM is created or born.
One who already aquire full knowledge of his origin and Inner Self definitely has full awareness that he has existed long before he was born to this world. So, Jesus has spoken the truth, on behalf of all human who are born and created in this world.
Only Islam has the way to acquire knowledge of God.
Only Islam is the true path towards God.
PEACE
To Sonlight:
Jesus never say He is The Alpha and Omega, But Lord GOD. Christians assume that Lord IS Jesus, hence tried to put these words into Jesus mouth.
In the Book of Revelation 1:8 King James Version implies that Jesus said he was Alpha and Omega. Since God says He is Alpha and Omega in Isaiah 44:6 Jesus, according to Christians, is claiming divinity here. However, the wording of King James is inaccurate. Not only do all modern translations clarify it was God who said it, not Jesus, but the conveyor of the words is one of God’s angels.
Revelation 1:1-3
NRSV “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.”
With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Jesus, the Prophet of God.
Revelation 1:8
KJV “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
NIV “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
NASB “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
ASV “I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
RSV ‘“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’
New American Bible (Catholic) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.”
Fifth, Revelation 22:13 is part of the vision of an unknown John (not the author of the gospel) in which he claims a visitation by an angel, mentioned in Revelation 21:09.
NRSV “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, ‘Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.’”
The angel is speaking from Revelation 22:10-13:
NRSV “And he said to me, ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.’
Jesus did not say those words, not is there any indication they refer to him. Then passage continues in verses 14 and 15.
NRSV “Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
This does not appear to be Jesus Christ speaking because the appearance of the first person singular pronoun in 22:16 signals a shift in speaker. Therefore, Alpha and Omega in the passage refers to God Himself, speaking through the angel. This is born out by Revelation 21:5-7 which says:
NRSV “And the One Who was seated on the throne said, ‘See, I am making all things new.’ Also He said, ‘Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.’ Then He said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.’”
What Jesus is reported as saying is,
NRSV, Revelation 22:16; “‘It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.’”
Therefore, for the sake of argument, should the saying “I am the Alpha and the Omega” actually pertain to other than Jesus, can one gamble personal salvation on a vision claimed by an author whose identity is not clear, and whose book is disputed as being reliably canon?
Sixth, what is significant is not so much the use of this name, but the fact that God is always superior to Jesus when the Bible describes the relationship between God and Jesus as explained elsewhere.
We can see from the above that these verses which Christians use to prove that Jesus is the son of God cannot be used in proving the Trinity.
ISLAM is TRUTH.
Peace
To Zaid,
Thank you for your reply. ( on Feb 19th, 2010 at 2:42 from Zaid)
One of the points that seems to come across to me from your reply is: The words “The First”, “The Last”, “Alpha”, and “Omega” in the Bible does not refer to Jesus.
I am sure Muslims will want to convince themselves that it is so. I am well aware that the expression “the First and the Last.. etc” in the Bible, at times only refers to God (and not specifically to Jesus).
However at other times, Christians believe it refers to Jesus. (e.g. – Revelation 2:8 -
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty ………” (ESV)
Please take note of this: “The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.” ( from Revelation 2:8 ). The words “the first and the last” is a term for God.; “who died and came to life” refers to Jesus.
Also : Revelation 1:17,18
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (ESV)
Again the One who calls Himself ” the first and the last,” says he died but is now alive forevermore. Also He has “the keys of Death and Hades.” Christians believe this is Jesus.
(FYI, in some Bibles, the words of Jesus are RED in colour).
Also Christians believe Revelation 22:13-16 are Jesus’ words. -
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end….
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
It would be interesting to see Muslims try to explain who this person is, who calls himself “the first and the last”, who died but is now alive forever and who holds ” the keys of Death and Hades”.
Just sharing some of the problems Muslims will encounter if Muslims try to prove that the terms -
-”The First”, “The Last”, “Alpha”, and “Omega” in the Bible does not at times refer to Jesus ,( that is Jesus using some of God’s titles to refer to Himself and therefore saying He is God.)
Peace Sonlight,
Your concept of God and Islam is different. I do not want to dispute on your beliefs.
Positively, at the least we have better understanding of each other’s religion. I hope you have thoroughly read all my posts and understand what I have written.
In Islam, we do not wait for our lives to end to find God. We seek and we find God in our very life. Life itself is God, and He manifested it in His Creations and thats how we exist with our breath and consciouness today. Allah is a hidden treasure behind every life and God’s creations. God says, ” You will not find me in other human, but I am within your inner SELF”. When we mention SELF, it refers to our consiousness. This SELF is related to GOD like the Sun and it rays, and it is within every Life in the entire universe.
I hope you also now understand about the 99 Names of Allah. These are attributes of God inherited throughout every of God’s creations. That’s what make our Life and cosciousness today. In Islam, we seek the path towards God through “Hakikat”. The peak of Hakikat is Makrifat. In Makrifat, Truth is unveiled and one will only see the TRUTH of GOD within every being and oneself. At this peak, his conciousness is only with God and he witnesses none other but God throughout the entire life and his Inner self. This is the status of God’s prophets, saints and for some who had purify their hearts and prostrate to God with utmost sincerity and those who had expelled the worldly and evil desires out from their inner self.
Islam is Truth
Peace
Dear ALL Christian Brothers and Sisters,
I guess, there’s no way Christians can prove that Jesus is God unless they can quote Jesus directly saying, “I AM GOD”.
Jesus and all other prophets were given authority by God to perform certain miracles. Not in any way , Jesus is much superior than other prophets of God. Each prophet had his own miracles with God’s will, much as a proof to their ppl on their authenticity of being the True messengers of God.
Christians throughout their bible, only try to proof Jesus Godship, quoting each word spoken by Jesus and claiming how these words are actually God in saying. However, none ever proves that Jesus is actually His Father (God), still much so far of being The Holy Spirit at the same time. There’s no concrete proof or explanation that Jesus,The Holy Spirit and God (The Father) are actually God in 3 separate forms. Words spoken by Jesus always refer His Father as a separate being, and The Holy Spirit is clearly impossible of Jesus being in another form.
So much of Jesus being the Truth, The Only Way, The Path, The Light which Christians claim these are God’s titles, hence Jesus is God. Islam provides a much clearer path and guidance for its followers to reach God. Christians are not able to show or prove that Jesus is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Islam teaches its followers the way of life as much as the way to God too.
We humans are closely knitted to God, like the Sun and its rays. The attributes of God as Christians claim only apply to Jesus, are as much apply to all mankind and the entire life which God has created. It is to one’s ignorance that God is actually separated or isolated from God’s creation. If such is the truth, then God is no longer omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.
The Quran and Hadis quoted several God sayings:-
” If my servants ask about Me, say I am near”.
“God is closer to Human than their jugular veins”.
“God is with you, wherever you are”,
“You will not find Me in other human, but I AM within your inner Self”.
“Whichever direction you cast your vision, I am present “.
Islam shows the true path towards God. Islam guides its followers towards direct relationship with God, without need of mediators. Islam explains how every life is related to God and how the 99 attributes of God are manifested throughout every existence of life in the entire universe. Humans are “perfect” mirrors of GOD. If God chooses to unveil Godself to His chosen ones, one will witness his life and existence “in unity” with the Existence of God. At this stage, his SELF consciousness is united with GOD, hence one will see himself as the “Truth, “The Light” etc..
Jesus, ultimately is one of God’s chosen ones. In history of Islam, there are several others chosen by God who had uttered “The Truth” within his SELF which in Islam we termed as “Fana’ ul Fana.”
God is near to His Creations, never separated, not isolated, not far BUT GOD IS NOT HIS CREATIONS.
It is time to ponder and seek the Ultimate Truth within your ENTIRE SELF, through Islam.
Islam is Truth.
To Zaid,
You say:’zaid.Feb 21st, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Dear ALL Christian Brothers and Sisters,
I guess, there’s no way Christians can prove that Jesus is God unless they can quote Jesus directly saying, “I AM GOD”.’
Sonlight’s reply: Even if there were a verse in the Bible that goes : ‘Jesus said – I am God’ , Muslims will not accept that Jesus is God. I say this because of Muslim’s response to some Bible verses that are very problematic for Islam.
To give you two examples, firstly the “I AM” statement of Jesus (John 8:58-59) that states Jesus existed before Abraham; and secondly – John 1:1 ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (The Word is another name for Jesus).
My perception is that when Muslims cannot give a good response to these problematic verses, they simply try to cast doubt on the verse’s authenticity (e.g. zaid,Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Peace Sonlight,
I shall not argue on the authenticity of Jesus statement in your bible, as its your belief not mine. – zaid)
So it is actually just a weak excuse for the Muslims to say that Muslims do not accept Jesus as God because the words – ‘Jesus said – I am God’ does not appear in the Bible.
I have referred to you(Zaid) and your words as an example to support my point but you can be sure of this; I have come across other Muslims who do the same thing when they come across problematic verses ( that is: problematic for Islam) in the Bible.
Readers should ask themselves , honestly, – “Is this acceptable?”
Peace…….. out
Precisely and bravo, Sonlight!
These poor, misguided muslims are only mis-reading back into the Gospel text what they want to make it say, But NEVER the proper interpretation whatsoever!
They just blindly practise more and more Mis-representations and this proves their twisted minds that have already been LONG POISONED by misled typical islamic polemics, and nothing else…!
Actually there was AT LEAST One reference where Jesus accepted OPENLY the fact that He was divine and had the qualities of divinity.
This was when Jesus’ own disciple Thomas directly addressed Christ Jesus as HIS LORD AND HIS GOD.
This is recorded in John 20: 24-29 :-
Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ‘WE HAVE SEEN THE LORD.’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.’ Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.’ Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.’ Thomas ANSWERED AND SAID TO HIM (Apekrithe Thomas kai eipen auto), ‘MY LORD and MY GOD!’
Then Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.’” John 20:24-29
Note that the disciples told Thomas that they had seen the Lord which the latter refused to believe without proof. When Christ then appeared to convince Thomas that he had been raised the latter responds by calling Jesus his Lord and God. The statement of the disciples identifying Jesus as the Lord provides strong contextual proof that the One whom Thomas addressed as his very own Lord is none other than Christ. In fact, Jesus had already told his followers that he is their Lord and Teacher:
“You call me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, FOR SO I AM. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.” John 13:13-14
Moreover, John in his prologue identified Jesus as the Logos or Word of God who is God in essence:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made… He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.” John 1:1-3, 10, 14
Furthermore, the Greek construction Apekrithe … kai eipen auto (“answered and said to him”) is a common idiom in the New Testament. This idiom always precedes a statement directed to the referent of the dative auto (“to him”). In other words, the statement “answered and said” refers to the referent signified by the indirect object (“to him”) which in this context would be Jesus Christ. There is no lexical support in any of the standard Greek references (BAGD, M&M, and Louw & Nida) where this idiom is to be taken as a relative address, as not addressing the object that the pronoun auto points to, but to someone else. There is no grammatical support in any of the standard grammars for claiming that such a construction is to be understood as referring to someone other than the addressee of the indirect object.
Muslims have NO WAY to rebut the facts above, especially when we analyse this passage in the original language and Culture of the historical context.
Jesus Christ ACCEPTED OPENLY, the Worship of His followers and NEVER scolded them, for openly calling Him directly as – ‘Lord and God’!
On the other hand, if Jesus was not divine, He would have given Thomas and his other followers like him, a severe REBUKE and scolding for giving Jesus SUCH WORSHIP! And he would tell them to ‘worship the true God instead’!
BUT, Jesus Christ NEVER gave them any such scolding or rebuke…THINK about that, all you muslim polemicists down here..!
Wasallaam, Hamzah.
To Hamzah,
Thank you for your informative response.
Haha, Good effort Hamzah.
First of all, we Muslims don’t believe that Jesus was ever crucified yet even resurrected.
Those events and stories you quoted about Jesus crucifixion and resurrection are fabrications and lies by Bible authors. They wrote what they like and what they wanted Jesus to be, so what ever Thomas sayings are “fictions” and simply cooked up.
It is so interesting to note that the FIRST Gospel Mark does not contain passages of the resurrection. These were later added to Matthew and Luke, whom ALL are anonymous and mysterious. How could you believe books whose authors are unknown?? Amazingly, Mark was the FIRST writer of the crucifixion though he is NOT ONE OF THE EYE WITNESS! Mark who? Luke who? Matthew who? Tell me who they are? Jesus disciples?
EVEN Paul, the earliest Christian writer, never records the Gospel version. Paul only says Jesus was “crucified for the sins of mankind” and he “rose from the dead”, which does not explain anything. Paul asserts that Jesus was crucified, yet did not mention any details which would later be recorded in the gospels.
Obviously, Paul knew nothing about the resurrection and the physical appearance of Jesus, yet even about the ascension of Jesus to heaven. These was added by Bible authors after Mark. (PS: How could Bible words be added, ommited, edited??, Isn’t God’s words supposed to be perfect?)
I quote:
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Paul’s proclamation was that God had raised Jesus into God’s very life. That was Easter for Paul. For Paul there were no empty tombs, no disappearance from the grave of the physical body, no physical resurrection, no physical appearances of a Christ who would eat fish, offer his wounds for inspection, or rise physically into the sky after an appropriate length of time. None of these ideas can be found in reading Paul. For Paul the body of Jesus who died was perishable, weak, physical. The Jesus who was raised was clothed by the raising God with a body fit for God’s kingdom. It was imperishable, glorified, and spiritual.
(John Shelby Spong, Resurrection: Myth or Reality, p. 241)
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Even Gentile historians NEVER mentioned the resurrection of Jesus. The Jewish philosopher Philo (50 CE) absolutely makes no reference to Jesus’ crucifixion. Philo- Judeaus lived during Jesus’ life and never mentioned about Jesus resurrection. Can’t believe how could he have missed out these BIG and Important event?
Think about it!
Peace
Good point you have there Bro Zaid. Keep it up bro for Allah is with you as He has said it that Truth will surely stands out clear from error.
Peace to you now Bro.
HAMZAH, YOU ARE SO SCREWED.
Hamzah Quoted
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made… He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.” John 1:1-3, 10, 14
______________________________________________________________________________
GOD’S WORDS REFERRING TO JESUS? OR DIRECT PLAGIARISM BY JOHN??
Philo wrote before any of the New Testament Writers. He developed the Logos doctrine of Alexandrian Judaism.
Philo never indicated the “the word” is God.He said that this word, the breath that came out of God’s mouth, was an entity, a divine person: the Word of God, who created the universe. Like the Greek philosophers, Philo used the terms “Word” (Logos) and “Wisdom” (Sophia) interchangeably to describe this being. He wrote that the Word was “begotten” (born by God) because it came out of God’s mouth. He wrote that the Word was a god, the Son of God, extremely close to God, and second in position.
A few decades later, the Word appeared in the writings of John.
Compare:
*Philo
*John
in sequential order below.
________________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Son followed the ways of his Father
“… {the Word} the Son thus begotten followed the ways of his Father, and formed the different things, looking to the archetypal patterns which the Father supplied.
John
Jesus followed the ways of his Father
“… Verily, I {Jesus} say to you, The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do; for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does.” (John 5:19-20 KJV) “All things were made by him {Jesus}; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3 KJV)
________________________________________________________________________________
Philo
God used the Word to create the world
“… the Word wherewith also He {God} made the world.” “The Word … of God through whom the whole universe was framed.”
John
Jesus created all things
“All things were made by him {Jesus}; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3 KJV)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Word is the fountain of water for eternal life
“ … the supreme Word of God, who is the fountain of Wisdom, in order that by drinking from that stream may gain eternal life instead of death …”
John
Jesus gives water for eternal life
“whoever drinks of the water that I {Jesus} will give him will never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” (John 4:14 NASB) “And let everyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who wishes take the water of {eternal} life as a gift.” (Revelation 22:17 NRSV)
________________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Word dwells in and among us
“… the divine Word dwells in and walks around those who honor the spiritual life.”
John
Jesus dwells in and among us
“… Christ lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20 NASB) “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us …” (John 1:14 NASB)
________________________________________________________________________________
Philo
When the Word dwells not in our soul to admonish it, the soul is free of guilt
“For as long as the divine Word has not come into our soul, as to some dwelling place, all its works {the works of the soul} are free from guilt, since the priest … who alone can admonish and bring it to wisdom, is far away.”
John
Jesus dwells in a believer. He admonished the Jews, so they are not free of guilt
“He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.” John 6:56 KJV) “If I {Jesus, the Word} had not come and spoken {admonish} to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.” (John 15:22 NASB)
______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
God draws people through the Word
“… the same Word, by which He made the universe, is that by which He draws the perfect man … to Himself.”
John
God draws people through Jesus
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” (John 14:6 NASB)
______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Word is the prophet of God
“… the Word, who is the interpreter and prophet of God.”
John
Jesus is the prophet of God
“… they said, ‘This {Jesus} is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world’ ” (John 6:14 NASB)
______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Word is the judge
“… the Word appointed as judge and mediator, who is called Angel.”
John
Jesus is the judge
“For the Father … has committed all judgment to the Son.” (John 5:22 KJV)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
That rock is manna and manna is the Word
“In another place he {Moses} uses a synonym for this rock and calls it ‘manna.’ Manna is the divine Word.”
John
Jesus is the manna
“I {Jesus} am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. … I am the living bread that came down out of heaven.” (John 6:48-49, 51 NASB)
________________________________________________________________________________
SO HAMZAH, So much of your God’s words tryig to prove Jesus Godship.
Peace
Islam is the Truth
Peace all Bros and Sisters,
History of Jesus in the Bible
The first writer to mention Jesus was Josephus, who wrote “Antiquities of the Jews” in 93 AD. He was writing a story that was told to him by believers. He wasn’t born until after the alleged events of the New Testament, as were the people he spoke with. As such, this isn’t a first- or even a second-hand account.
Even then, some have argued whether or not Josephus really wrote about the Jesus of the gospels, or whether or not that was added later. Historians agree is that the work itself has corruption from later writers; the disagreement is which parts were added later, and which parts were from Josephus himself.
Seneca and Pliny the Elder recorded events throughout the Roman Empire and lived during the alleged lifetime of Jesus. They never mentioned Jesus. Clearly, his fame was unknown.
Philo Judaes, however, would’ve been the best source. Hea contemporary (20 BC-50 AD), and he lived in Jerusalem. He recorded major and minor events of the region in great detail. But, in all his volumes of writings, he never mentions a man named Jesus, nor mentions the events depicted in the Bible. Why would he leave out a powerful figure who rose from the dead if it really happened?
The gospels were written 40-100 years after the alleged resurrection, depending on the gospel in question and which source you wish to use. The epistles were written by men who never saw Jesus, even by their own account. The epistles of James don’t even mention a person by the name of Jesus. As such, none of the biblical writings can be reliably taken as accounts about the history of Jesus.
All we have is hearsay, and if we accept hearsay as evidence, there’s no end to the fantastic histories we would be forced to believe.
I can’t imagine how could one risk his Salvation upon such beliefs, when the sources, writers, authors are mysterious, unknown and doubtful.
Islam is Truth
Peace
Now you desperate and poisoned-minded muslim polemicists try to pretend to be so-called ‘historians’ BUT with no real or relevant scholastic credentials whatsoever. Before that, you all FAILED miserably to explain away anything about my Post when I highlighted the FACT that Jesus fully received, accepted AND ENDORSED His disciple Thomas’s worship and statement of adoration towards Jesus Christ as his Lord and his God!
As found here, in Black and White in the Holy Injil as recorded by the Hawariyun (Apostle) John :
’ Thomas ANSWERED AND SAID TO HIM (Apekrithe Thomas kai eipen auto), ‘MY LORD and MY GOD!’
Then Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.’”
John 20:24-29
Your typical muslim pathetic NON-answer : that the Gospels in the Bible are all falsified and therefore unreliable is only very convenient for you all but very UNFORTUNATELY for you all, proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL :-pp HAHAHAHA!
You have not proven beyond a shadow of any doubt, the factuality or truthfulness of your assertion and claim!
Thus, it only remains as a mere, pitiful CLAIM of you muslim polemicists thats backed up NOT BY FACTS, but only by muslim polemics and anti-christian prejudices and nothing else!
The idea and allegation that the Bible is false is something that even non-Christian scholars have never been able to prove factually or historically, much less the muslim missionaries..!
(
Actually, scholars have discovered that, if the same conditions and objective examinations are honestly applied to the Quran, this book FAILS the tests miserably!
First of all, what we have as the so-called ‘valid Quran’ today, is itself NOT the first hand testimony of its very first witnesses, let alone VERIFIABLE nor traceable to them :
The quran, you have today IS AT BEST, ONLY THE FIFTH HAND TESTIMONY…
First, It was on what itself claims as the ‘mother of the Book in heaven’ – the so-called ummul kitab,
2nd) Then, parts of that became parts of the transmission via the ‘angel’ to muhd your ‘prophet’,
3rd) Next, Muhd who had to memorize it and learn it correctly – even with revision courses at night with the so-called angel ‘Jibril’,
4th) then down to muhd’s follower/s who themselves had to memorize the stuff from him, AFter that!
5th) Then, from THAT, what 3rd Caliph Othman b.Affan edited, removed and rearranged in his latest revised standard version with the help of his editorial committee headed by Zaid b.Thabit! (After burning all the differing versions of the then existing qurans in an act of wanton destruction)!
This is confirmed by the Hadith al-Bukhari here:
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
‘ Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to ‘Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) …” So ‘Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, “Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.” Hafsa sent it to ‘Uthman. ‘Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, ‘Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and ‘AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. ‘Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, “In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue.”
‘ They did so, and when they had written many copies, ‘Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. ‘Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies,TO BE BURNT (DIMUSNAHKAN DENGAN DIBAKAR!). …” ‘
Here we see how the seventh-century problem of having different versions of the Qur’an was fixed BY A MAN – and NOT by Allah.
It was fixed by Uthman standardizing one version of the Qur’an and ordering that all others be burnt
So, don’t come telling us that the quran you have TODAY, is the very same as what was in the ‘ummul kitab’ (mother of the book)!
It is even HIGHLY DOUBTFUL that what quran you have today even REMOTELY resembles the one in the seventh century of the time of the first 3 caliphs! After all that manual manipulation of it by human intervention and edition!
Factually and objectively, muslims, your quran, today, is at BEST, only and merely the fifth-hand testimony from what was supposedly the original one. NOBODY can find the original autographs, since, even according to your Hadith Sahih, khalifah Uthman sudah musnahkan SEMUA mashaf2 yang ada dengan membakar segalagalanya dalam api besar.
Today’s quran adalah hasil penyelarasan dan revisi di tangan sebuah KOMITI yg di ketuai oleh seorang muslim muda bernama Zaid b.Thabit – who was appointed by Khalifah Uthman!
So, hasil kerja Komiti ini adalah mustahil sebagai sesuatu yang datang daripada tangan Tuhan Sendiri, bukan!??
Ia hanya adalah karya komiti khalifah ke-3 Uthman yg diketuai oleh si-Zaid b.Thabit itu sahaja, no more, and no less…
So, don’t be big hypocrites over this Blog, by coming and making all sorts of fallacious and humorous claims against the authenticity and validity of the Bible / Gospels, WHEN your quran itself is TODAY, such a doubtful book, with dubious questionable origins and the result of an Editorial committee and at the very best, ONLY the FIFTH-HAND testimony from what was claimed to be ‘original’.
This itself shows why NO reputable, and thinking Scholar worth his/her Credentials, EVER takes the quran seriously, and at least as a reliable ‘source’ for the authentic HISTORICAL life and Ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ / Sayidina Rabbani Isa al-Masih.
For THAT, the overwhelming majority of REPUTABLE scholars go to and rely upon the 4 Gospels that we have in the Bible today (but NEVER to the quran).
This speaks VOLUMES for the reliability and historical validity of the NT Gospels and conversely, about the doubtfulness and awful, abysmal UNReliability of the ‘quran al-karim’ as a source of truth and facts.
When you live in such glass houses, its very hypocritical and stupid of you all to throw stones without thinking first about consequences to yourselves, o muslims here…!
Wasalaam, Hamzah.
Dearest Hamzah
You are just too desperate to raise unfounded doubts on Quran authenticity. Caliph Uthman did not order the “many versions” of Quran to be burned. There’s only 1 QURAN and everyone knows the source is only from Muhammad SAW. Quran has been passed down from the sahabats, caliphs and many muslims who have then memorized the entire Quran in exact completeness and accuracy. It is proven till now, that the complete Quran is in the heart of many in COMPLETENESS.
How can you compare to your Gospels which your own Bible scholars admit the many errors and contradictions. The writers were anonymous and no one knows who these writers really are. You are not able to trace their origins, birth or biography, so how can you rely your trust on them? For sure none of them were eyewitness of Jesus, or even came close to Jesus genuine disciples.
Isn’t it weird that NOT A SINGLE GOSPEL OR BIBLE WAS WRITTEN OR EXISTED DURING JESUS TIME AND ENDORSED BY JESUS HIMSELF? THERE ARE MANY GREEK OR JEWISH PHILOSOPHERS DURING JESUS LIFE WHO WROTE MANY BOOKS AND SCRIPTURES. WHY NONE EVER WROTE ABOUT JESUS CRUCIFIXION AND RESURRECTION? WASN’T JESUS THE MAN GOD GREAT ENOUGH TO EARN THEIR ATTENTION OR HONOUR?
Back to Quran; In the former, Quran was written and recorded without vowels. So to avoid confusions and different pronounciations by different Muslims tribes while reciting Quran, Caliph Uthman decided to standardized the Quran with added vowels, so that it is recited uniformly according to what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad SAW. The old writings without the vowels were then destroyed. This was the main reasons, not according to your allegations that there were many versions.
You may challenge this fact, that Quran may be distorted overtime during Prophet Muhammad’s life to Caliph Uthman. There’s one point that we can be very sure. The Quran has been and currently still be memorized completely and in the heart of many Muslims. But your bible??
Lets take up a test. Throw all bibles, all Quran and other religious books in this world. I am very sure, insya Allah, only Quran will prevail as still, there are many Muslims in the entire world who have memorized the Quran by heart, word by word without any loss. This is the TRUE miracle of Allah, that even those who may not understand the meaning, are able to memorize and Recite the Quran in eloquent manner.
So Hamzah, name me just one of your Jesus worshipper who had memorized your entire bible. Can you?? Your allegations on the many versions of Quran destroyed by Caliph Usman is just your desperate excuse to defend your worthless and corrupted bible. While current remains and being preserved as it is, your bible has gone through many revisions and modifications from time to time. Bible Scholars themselves admit that there are many forgeries, falsifications and fabrications which are edited, added or omitted from your bible.
Isn’t God’s words perfect enough to be preserved?
BTW, Hamzah. In my previous posts, I have ask you and Sonlight to prove Jesus Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence. Where is Your God now? He left you without a message? Let me give you his contact. ITS 1800-KENALDIRI.
God is near, not far, not separated nor isolated. God is near to His Creations, but He is Not His Own Creations. Kenali lah DIRI kamu, akan kamu KENAL Tuhan yg Nyata.
Wassalam
To Zaid
Just sharing an observation.
You say: “In the former, Quran was written and recorded without vowels. So to avoid confusions and different pronounciations by different Muslims tribes while reciting Quran, Caliph Uthman decided to standardized the Quran with added vowels, …. The old writings without the vowels were then destroyed. -zaid’ Feb 24th, 2010 at 8:13 pm”
From my reading, the older parts of the (Hebrew) Bible was written in a slightly different way. (Old Hebrew did not have certain dots and dashe – e.g. like the Old Malay letter ‘E – tanda’ .) Later the Bible was translated into Latin, and other languages.
The fact that there are thousands of bible manuscripts (in Hebrew as well as other languages- many of them from before the appearance of Islam) appears to me as a link with the past. Scholars now can compare the newer manuscripts with the older manuscripts and the different translations.
It seems odd to me that one of the first things to happen in Islam was to have the older writings destroyed. It is like destroying your history; destroying your link with the past.
A Christian writer once wrote that the adding of the dots and dashes to the Hebrew of the Bible makes the Bible ( i.e the Old Testament at least) an interpretation (because Old Hebrew did not have dots and dashes).
Following this type of thinking, I suggest to you that your Quran is also someone’s interpretation ( because , by your own admission, the original writing did not have vowels.)
I mention this now because I have heard it being mentioned by Muslims that the Quran has been wonderfully preserved.
You ask :”Isn’t God’s words perfect enough to be preserved?” – zaid -Feb 24th, 2010 at 8:13 pm.
I see this as an odd thing for Muslims to say when the early Muslims did not preserve the early Quranic verses but had them destroyed ( unlike the Christians and their early writings which they try to preserve and not destroy).
Dear All,
Perhaps it is the Christians who have preserved God’s message. Islam is trying to destroy it.
Hi Sonlight,
First of all Quran means “Recitation”. The Quran was completely memorized by heart and was also recorded in writings. As Hamzah has mentioned, the Quran was recited and memorized frequently by Muslims, even in our 5 prayers a day. The complete Quran till today has been proven to be in the hearts of many Muslims. The entire book of Quran can be memorized in total completeness even by a child at tender age. This is the beauty and miracles of the Quran. I am very sure you are aware of it. Has anyone of you memorize your entire Bible??
Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).
The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.
Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.
It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.
The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.
____________________________________________________________
WHY USMAN DECIDED TO STANDARDIZE THE QURAN?
Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.).
Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.
There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.
The original manuscript of the Qur’an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur’an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur’an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth ‘Umayyad’ Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq.
Some people argue that the present copy of the Qur’an that we have along with the vowels and the diacritical marks is not the same original Qur’an that was present at the Prophet’s time. But they fail to realize that the word ‘Qur’an’ means a recitation. Therefore, the preservation of the recitation of the Qur’an is important, irrespective of whether the script is different or whether it contains vowels. If the pronunciation and the Arabic is the same, naturally, the meaning remains the same too.
Allah has promised in the Qur’an :
“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). [Al-Qur’an 15:9]
Evidently, the compilation of the Quran can be traced from its roots. What was destroyed were ONLY the unverified copies held by some other Muslims, which could contain mistakes, while the verified ones were and are still available now.
In comparison, your bible didn’t come for Jesus himself. It was only written DECADES after Jesus departure. There are many VERSIONS of your Gospel and each contradicts one other. Your bible has underwent many modifications and Bible Scholars had admitted on the presence of errors and contradictions.
Unlike Muhammad PBUH, Jesus did not himself authenticate the Bible. Bible authors were anonymous and their credibility are highly questionable. Its strange that not a single Gospel or evidences about Jesus Godship were written during Jesus time.
See the differences?
Peace
Islam is Truth
Dear Bros & Sis,
It is interesting to note that the Qur’an perfectly fits its name. Quran means “Readings” or “Recitations”. The fact that Allah has willed to reveal the Qur’an to Muhammad pbuh being illiterate becomes an undisputable proof that its authenticity has been preserved through recitations and backed up by writings. Its beauty is unchallenged for, that till this present day, one can see how beautiful Quran can be memorized and recited, by the young and old, even by a child at early age.
It just proves that the true Words of God are dear to his Creations and close to everyone’s heart, that the entire Quran can be fully memorized and has been very much proven till tiday.
No other books including Bible has been fully memorized by their respective followers and the authenticity of these books other than Quran can never be traced back to its authentic sources. I doubt Jesus had ever seen or read any of the Bible which had been written, yet to endorse its authenticity. So, who owns the authority to confirm and endorse bible authenticity?
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Zaid,
You say to Hamzah:”Lets take up a test. Throw all bibles, all Quran and other religious books in this world. I am very sure, insya Allah, only Quran will prevail as still, there are many Muslims in the entire world who have memorized the Quran by heart, word by word without any loss. This is the TRUE miracle of Allah, that even those who may not understand the meaning, are able to memorize and Recite the Quran in eloquent manner.
So Hamzah, name me just one of your Jesus worshipper who had memorized your entire bible. Can you?? ” – zaid, Feb 24th, 2010 at 8:13 pm.
Sonlight’s comment: – What you have written has been repeated in Islam but is faulty in logic.
You refer to Muslims who are able to memorize the Quran (and say that “This is the TRUE miracle of Allah”) as if this somehow proves Islam to be true.
I wish to bring to your attention to Daniel Tammet (please WIKI) – “Tammet holds the European record for reciting pi from memory to 22,514 digits in five hours and nine minutes on March 14, 2004…Tammet can learn new languages very quickly. To prove this for a documentary film, Tammet was challenged to learn Icelandic in one week. Seven days later he appeared on Icelandic television conversing in Icelandic, with his Icelandic language instructor saying it was “not human” and “genius!”. ” – from WIKI. ( I heard about him first on BBC radio.)
If some persons can memorise the whole Quran, it means that those persons may have amazing memories. It does not mean that the Quran is special or is the words of God.
You are spreading Islamic propaganda, interpreting (and twisting) facts to make them fit the (biased) way you as a Muslim see things.
Also you say:”This is the TRUE miracle of Allah, that even those who may not understand the meaning, are able to memorize and Recite the Quran in eloquent manner. ” – Zaid.
My reply: This further illustrates the twisted way in which you as a Muslim see things.
The reality is, it is a waste of time and effort to memorize words whose meaning one does not understand. What I see as a waste of time and effort; you call a miracle of Allah.
The existance of people like Daniel Tammet proves that memorizing the Quran is not as amazing as you would have everyone believe. It is certainly not a “TRUE miracle of Allah”.
This issue of persons memorizing the whole Quran does not prove that Islam is true.
P.S You use the word ” eloquent ” with regards to persons who are able to memorize and recite the whole Quran.
The dictionary I am referring to defines the word ” eloquent ” as being able to express oneself smoothly and clearly.
I do not doubt that those persons you referred to are able to repeat the words of the Quran smoothly. But the term “express oneself” also means to “say what I think (or what I mean)”. Since the words that those Quran reciters you referred to may have no meaning to them, then the word “eloquent” does not apply to them. They are just parrots repeating words with no meaning.
I suggest that you put forward to readers other examples, rather than parrots, as “True miracle of Allah”.
Sonlight,
Thank you ever so much in illustrating on how desperate christians can be in defending your corrupted “truth”. With the choice of words you have used, you guys are simply the best when it comes to entertainment. Keep it up, because the world sure needs to be entertained once in a while.
Hi Sonlight,
You did not address my postings in its full context. You only chose some of my words to fit into your needs and addressed them. I am not surprised as these are what Christians always do with your bible and other books to prove your “Truth”; by quoting words or verses OUT OF CONTEXT.
I mentioned some can memorize even when they may have not fully understand its meaning. It doesn’t apply to ALL, I’ve mentioned young or old, even child at tender age. It is your “twisted” thoughts that Muslims memorize the entire Quran without understanding its meanings. When we recite and memorize, we learn the meanings at the same time. However, it is still possible for those who memorize without understanding the meanings, due to the beauty of the Quran, how it was revealed in poetric manner.
I’ve mentioned this points mainly to emphasize how Quran has been preserved through “Recitations” besides writings. As Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate, God through the angel Jibrail revealed the Quran to Prophet Muhammad through recitations which was then passed down to the Prophet’s companions who recited, memorized and at the same time recorded them in writings with the prophet’s verifications.
I have proven to you that the Quran has been preserved in its original context all along, as the entire Quran is in the hearts of many till present and the original verified manuscripts are still preserved till today. Rather than proving your bible, you chose to quote “Daniel Tammet” who are not related to our discussions.
BTW, you have not prove to me who authenticate your bible? Jesus?God? Paul? From what I have learned, the 4 Gospels by Mark, Luke, Matthew and John were written at different timings. ALL the 4 Gospels begins with “According To..” So what is according to?? It refers to a 3rd party, so these writers are actually consolidating and compiling the gospels”according to somebody else’s words”. 4 WRITERS, 4 GOSPELS. NOT EVEN ONE OF THEM REMEMBERED TO PUT IN THEIR REFERENCES OR LAST NAME. SO WHO WERE THEY AND WHO ARE THEIR REFERENCES OR SOURCES? SINCE ALL HAD QUOTED THE WORDS FROM SOMEBODY ELSE’S, DON’T YOU THINK YOUR BIBLE CRITICALLY NEEDS TO BE SCRUTINIZED?
Peace
Islam is Truth
Salam,
Zaid, ‘WHO ARE THE AUTHORS OF THE BIBLE’ is the same question that I posted to ‘Truth and Light from the Son’ that until know he did not give me any answer.
According to WIKI ( used by Sonlight ), most of them are unknown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
Unknown author is equivalent to unknown fact. Unknown fact is equivalent to false.
Syukri
Salam Brother Syukri & Muslim Bros,
Precisely, The Christians simply can’t answer to this question. The Christians boast of an excess of 24,000 “ancient manuscripts” of the Bible dating all the way back to the fourth century after Christ (But not back to Christ or the apostles themselves). All Bibles in existence today are compiled from these “ancient manuscripts.
In other words, their gospels only date back to the century when the Trinitarians took over the Christian Church. This was how the Trinity beliefs come into existence, not the real Jesus teachings.
They never seem to realize that all manuscripts from before this period have strangely perished. Or they are simply too embarassed to admit, yet still adamant that they are in the right path.
Dear Christian bros and sis,
Imagine….
If you wite a letter to your wife, girlfriends or loved ones and signed off with..
Your sincerely,
According to… Sonlight. OR..
I issue you a cheque with “According to… followed by my signature”.
How about that? Will you accept it? You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to say that it needs to be investigated or scrutinized.
You guys are just LOST.
Peace
Islam is Truth.
To Zaid
You said :”… This is the TRUE miracle of Allah, that even those who may not understand the meaning, are able to memorize and Recite the Quran in eloquent manner. – zaid, Feb 24th, 2010 at 8:13 pm.
Your calling of the fact that there are Muslims who are able to memorize the whole Quran “..the True miracle of Allah” I see as an attempt to prove Islam to be true.
Also you say: ZAID Feb 27th, 2010 at 9:42 am –“Rather than proving your bible, you chose to quote ‘Daniel Tammet’ who are not related to our discussions.”
My high-lighting of persons like Daniel Tammet (Sonlight, Feb 27th, 2010 at 3:14 am) shows that your “True miracle of Allah” is no miracle (whether the Reciters of the Quran you referred to understand its meaning or not). I am not surprised that you will try to convince everyone that it is not related to our discussion. I high-lighted Daniel Tammet for the benefit of readers. I believe I do not need to elaborate more on this point as the point is quite obvious.
I focused on this point (i.e. your “TRUE miracle of Allah”) because it can be seen, here, as an attempt by you to proof Islam as true. I believe I have proven that your “TRUE miracle of Allah” is no miracle; and therefore fails as a proof of the truth of Islam.
I am curious to know what other proofs you know of to try to convince everyone Islam is true. Those proofs may not be proofs at all, on careful inspection; in which case one must conclude that to believe Islam is true is not reasonable.
Hi Sonlight,
My points mentioned is a proof that Quran has never been changed compared to your Bible. Please address the issue how your bible can be the words of God, since the writers were anonymous. No references, no last names and no gospels written during Jesus life.
How could you 100% be sure the all these words are true. Weren’t there anybody who wrote about Jesus during his life, since Jesus was no ordinary man but GOD? Or somebody had deliberately destroyed the original books and started a new religion akin to their pagan beliefs??
Best Regards
According to…. Zaid. Juz jokin.
Why I am convinced Islam is true. Because what ever was brought by the past prophets down to Jesus are explained conscisely in the Quran. God has sent his messengers to the ppl but time and again the ppl opposed and denied the truth by destroying & corrupting the books; your gospels are not spared. I have beckoned you to prove your Gospels authenticity but you’ve failed.
Allah mentioned Muhammad pbuh is the sealed of all prophets and Quran will be the final revelation. This has been mentioned in the Quran:-
[We have sent down the Reminder, and We will preserve it.] (Al-Hijr 15: 9
[Will they not ponder the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it.] (An-Nisaa’ 4: 82
[If you have doubts about what We have sent down to Our servant, produce another surah equal to it, and call your witnesses, besides Allah, if you are telling the truth. If you do not do that – and you will not do it – then fear the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, made ready for the unbelievers. ] (Al-Baqarah 2: 23-24)
[Say: “If both humanity and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could never produce anything like it, even if they backed each other up.” ] (Al-Israa’ 17: 88)
The Truth indeed, no other prophets, books or religion had come after Muhammad. If Muhammad is false and wrote his own book, he’d avoid such statements coz he knew not what will come after him. Only God knows.
I have lots of proofs to be presented to you about Quran, however it is best if you could read and judge it yourself if you are truly looking for the Truth. Anyway, the choice is yours.
Peace
Sonlight,
Bro Zaid has presented to us with full logical explanation on how the Quran has been preserved with God’s all original words still intact through recitation and texts.
Now stop being an idiotic evangelic Islam basher clown and start answering Bro Zaid question regarding your bible. It will be interesting for us to see now on how you address his question on bible’s authenticity in keeping God’s words.
Are you soooo sure your quran is error-free, I take it just as a shallow and blind claim, o muslims, because as a muslim, you MUST protect the so-called purity of the quran! – or else into HELL you will go, betul-Tak!
BUT, let us listen to another learned AND HONEST muslim scholar, who went to islamic seminary and university in Iraq and knows what he is talking about – unlike so manyu muslims HERE…:-))
“The Qor’an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gernder and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects …
“To sum up, more than one hundred Qor’anic aberrations from the normal rules and structures have been noted…
(Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, California, 1994, pages 48,50)
SO, Is the quran really well-preserved ? We must take a good, HONEST look at this, o muslims!
According to islam’s own history and authentic historical sources there is ADMISSION of the perversion of the Quran :
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
“Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an HAS BEEN LOST, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available”’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).
A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,
“During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded” (73 verses).
The same statement is made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions. On page 72, part 3, the Suyuti says,
“This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the chapter of the Parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, ‘It used to be almost equal to the chapter of the Cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death.”’
What caused the LOSS of the parts of the Quran :
Here are SOME of the causes:
Events Which Led To The Loss Of Some Verses
A Domesticated Animal Eats Qur’anic Verses
In his book (volume 8, part II, pages 235 and 236), Ibn Hazm says plainly,
“The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Qur’anic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it.”
A’isha herself declared that and she knew exactly what she possessed. Also, Mustafa Husayn, who edited and reorganized the book, “al-Kash-shaf” by the Zamakh-Shari, asserts this fact in page 518 of part 3. He says that the ones who related this incident and said that a domesticated animal ate the verses were reliable persons among them ’Abdulla Ibn Abi Bakr and A’isha herself. This same story has been mentioned also by Dar-al-Qutni, al-Bazzar and al Tabarani, on the authority of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq who heard it from ’Abdulla who himself heard it from A’isha.
So, my poor muslim misionaries, the quran is FAR, VERY fery far, from being a preserved book and truly far from perfect – for anybody’s guidance. THAT much is the hard facts on the ground.
Hamzah.
Welcome back Hamzah,
So much of your intelligence about Islam, all Cut and Paste stuff from your corrupted and deceitful http://www.answeringislam.org and faithfreedom sites. This Suyuti Itqaan balderdash comes only from sites run by Ali Sina’s FFI, WikiIslam, Islam Watch and sites of other answering-Islam goons like Silas, Robert Spencer, Sam Shamoun, who cannot even produce that in its original Arabic and distort.
Just would like to remind you Mr Hamzah, your “intelligence” is crap. Please quote from authentic sources and please give your references and sources in detailed. Seems like you can’t drop your “Christianity” habits to rely on unauthentic sources just like your Bible to prove your “Truth”.
There is nothing of the sort in Suyuti Itqaan. It is all mistranslation, misreport and distortion, deliberately carried out by these non-muslims hypocrites. BTW, there are hundreds of Quran memorizers and reciters since Muhammad pbuh life. Nothing of which you claimed has been lost from the Quran as Quran had and always been in the heart of Muslims eversince and forever.
I quote the exact story that you have misquoted about Umar Ibn Khattab:
You quote
_______________________________________________________________________________
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
“Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an HAS BEEN LOST, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available”’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).
_______________________________________________________________________________
Here is the complete story
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet’s Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), “Umar has come to me and said: “Casualties were heavy among the Qurra’ of the! Qur’an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra’ on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur’an be collected.” I said to ‘Umar, “How can you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?” ‘Umar said, “By Allah, that is a good project. “Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which ‘Umar had realized.” Then Abu Bakr said (to me). ‘You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur’an and collect it in one book).” By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur’an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, “How will you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?” Abu Bakr replied, “By Allah, it is a good project.” Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar. So I started looking for the Qur’an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:
‘Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa’ (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur’an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with ‘Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of ‘Umar.
You Christians are just too fond of quoting verses OUT OF CONTEXT. Please reply on your bible authenticity please.
There are more that I wish to post against your allegations. Insya Allah I will.
Peace
Islam is Truth.
Welcome back Hamzah,
Impressive “Intelligence” you’ve got there. Non stop cut & paste stuff from your corrupted http://www.answeringislam.org and faithfreedom sites. This Suyuti Itqaan balderdash you’ve got comes only from sites run by Ali Sina’s FFI, WikiIslam, Islam Watch and sites of other answering-Islam goons like Silas, Robert Spencer, Sam Shamoun, who cannot even produce that in its original Arabic and distort.
There is no such statement made by Suyuti or any Tafsir expert. These polemic sites just quote fraudulent reference numbers and distort by adding their own words in the translated narrations. Silly and desperate folks like you fall for their rubbish, without even asking them to show the exact quote in Arabic or Persian.
There is nothing of the sort in Suyuti Itqaan. It is all mistranslation, misreport and distortion, deliberately carried out by these hypocrites.
Please, quote from authentic sources and references to prove your points. You Christians just can’t discard your habits in quoting verses “Out of Context” just like your interpretation of your own bible. BTW, you have yet to prove me on your bible authenticity.
________________________________________________________________________________
About your allegations on Umar Ibn Khattab
You quote
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
“Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an HAS BEEN LOST, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available”’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).
________________________________________________________________________________
I quote the Full Story
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet’s Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), “Umar has come to me and said: “Casualties were heavy among the Qurra’ of the! Qur’an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra’ on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur’an be collected.” I said to ‘Umar, “How can you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?” ‘Umar said, “By Allah, that is a good project. “Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which ‘Umar had realized.” Then Abu Bakr said (to me). ‘You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur’an and collect it in one book).” By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur’an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, “How will you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?” Abu Bakr replied, “By Allah, it is a good project.” Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar. So I started looking for the Qur’an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:
‘Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa’ (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur’an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with ‘Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of ‘Umar.
_______________________________________________________________________________
There were easily hundreds of Muslims memorizers and reciters who had the entire Quran in their hearts during prophet Muhammad’s life. Your allegations about Umar Ibn Khattab are just lame without knowing the whole story. Much proven, the entire Quran is still in the hearts of many Muslims today and after I will reply to your other allegations in later post, insya Allah.
Again just to remind, prove your Bible authenticity Please!
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Zaid
You say: zaid, Mar 1st, 2010 at 10:01 am”……. Please address the issue how your bible can be the words of God, since the writers were anonymous. No references, no last names and no gospels written during Jesus life.”
Your question is not very accurate ( and reveals Muslims misconception of what the Gospel is) but I will attempt to answer it anyway. (I am only attempting to answer this question as I believe not everyone would go to the web-site ‘Answering Islam’ for answers. The people at Answering Islam are certainly more knowledgeable than me.)
The Bible is Scripture (God’s word) for the Christian. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…” – 2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)
Firstly the Bible is actually a collection of books written over a period of hundreds of years. Therefore, many persons had a hand in writing the books of the Bible. But Christians believe they were all moved by God when they wrote the books (as the verse I quoted states)
The origins of some of the books do not present any problems as I understand it. For example : The letters of Saint Peter. (1 Peter 1:1) -”Peter, an apostle of Jesus. To God’s elect” . This indicates that he wrote the letter. (There was only one apostle named Peter so his not giving of a last name is no issue.) It cannot be said that this book was written by an anonymous person.
Also I wish to point out the verse -1 Peter 2:24“He (Christ) himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.”. Here we have part of the Gospel message; i.e. that Jesus died on the cross (tree) for the sins of the world.
So here is a book which claims to have been authored by one of the original twelve disciples of Jesus telling us that Jesus was crucified for the sins of man.
Muslims must reject this (of course) to remain Muslims , e.g. -zaid, Feb 23rd, 2010 at 9:49 am
“……First of all, we Muslims don’t believe that Jesus was ever crucified yet even resurrected.
Those events and stories you (Hamzah) quoted about Jesus crucifixion and resurrection are fabrications and lies by Bible authors. They wrote what they like and what they wanted Jesus to be, so what ever Thomas sayings are “fictions” and simply cooked up.” – Zaid.
So Zaid, I do not know how you want me to prove the authenticity of the books of the Bible, since you will not accept it anyway.
I wish to mention a few more points to share my understanding of the origins of some of the books of the Bible and the issues that make the origins of some of them less clear. (The opinions of closed- minded, brain-washed Muslims about the “problems” of the origin of the books of the Bible is of no concern to me since they have declared as “fabrications and lies by Bible authors” points which are at the heart of Christianity. They cannot accept all that I say, of course. If they did, they would cease to be Muslims.)
to be continued…
Actually, Zaid, YOU are the biggest Goon of all…Hahaha! Those qre REAL and authentic quotes indeed, only you have not seen them ‘cos your muslim ulamaks have kept them away from the public eyes, your MERE denial will never chane the hard facts on the ground that the quran is indeed a human book and proven to be NOT from Allah whatsoever…no matter what you try to say to avoid this VERY UNComfortable fact and issue for muslims!
Your ulamaks are at a total loss to explain the historical developments surrounding the
editings and re-editings of the quran.
So-called memorisation by the hafizuns alone never safe-guarded your quran from errors and multiple versions and readings with variant meanings, these variants were so severe and serious as to cause WARS and ‘fellow-muslims’ to actually KILL EACH OTHER!
This is ALREADY confirmed by the Hadith al-Bukhari here:
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
‘ Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their – the people of SHAM and IRAQ (all muslims!)- differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to ‘Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before THEY DIFFER about the Book (Quran) …”
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/061.sbt.html#006.061.510
I quote from the “valid hadith” islamic source above to show you that these QUOTES EXIST AND ARE NOT DREAMT UP -like your FALSE ACCUSATIONS against the Gospels of Jesus Christ, o muslims.
So, are there errors in the quran, of grammar, vocabulary and contents, SURE there is – MORE THAN 100 Errors and inconsistencies throughout the quran :
I quote from the Bahasa Melayu translation of the ulama’s Ali Dashtis Honest and objective research (unlike your intentional HIDING OF FACTS abt your fallacious quran)! :-
Sesuatu sifat yang jelas berkurangan dalam keangkuhan beberapa dai Islam. Sebaliknya, salah seorang yang sanggup menjatikan dirinya ialah Ali Dashti, beliau adalah seorang ‘alim Islam yang cukup berilmu dan berpengetahuan, berasal dari rantau timur-tengah.
Dalam Bukunya yang mengkaji karir dan kehidupan Nabi Muhammad berjudul :”23 Years – A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad”, beliau membuat pengakuan tentang al-Quran :
“Al-Quran mengandungi ayat-ayat yang tidak lengkap serta tidak boleh difahami (tanpa penggunaan Tafsir). Ungkapan-ungkapan asing serta kata-kata Arab yang tidak lazim dikenali. Juga kata-kata yang tidak mempunyai maksud yang biasa atau yang lazim. Kata-kata sifat dan kata-kata kerja yang telah diubahkan bentuk perkataannya tanpa mengikut tatabahasa dan nahu Bahasa Arab yang standar.
“Banyak juga Kata-kata ganti yang dipakai secara wewenang dan semborono dan dengan jelas mencerobohi tatabahasa dan ragam nahu Bahasa-contohnya kata-kata ganti tanpa apa-apa objeknya. Predikat (penjelas subjek dalam satu-satu ayat) yang seringkali tidak ada pertalian dengan subjeknya di dalam ayat-ayat yang berangkap.
“Penyelewengan bahasa dan penyimpangan-penyimpangan seperti tersebut telah sebabkan ramai pengkaji Quran menyangkal keistimewaannya. Masalah-masalah ini juga telah memaksa para mufassirin dan ulamak muslim mencari-cari penjelasan (diluar Quran) dan juga menjadi sumber pertelingkahan dan perselisihan yang hangat di antara mereka.”
(23 Years – A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Ali Dashti, ms.48,49)
Lepas itu, Ali Dashti melengkapkan kita dengan contoh-contoh kasus yang spesifik penyelewengan-penyelewengan tersebut dengan kajian Quran dari Surah-surah 74, surah 4, surah 2, surah 20, surah 24 dan surah 53.
Ali Dashti telah membuat kesimpulan yang mengejutkan tentang al-Quran apabila beliau merumus seperti berikut :
“Sebagai rumusan, ada LEBIH DARIPADA SERATUS PENYELEWENGAN DAN PENYIMPANGAN TERDAPAT DI DALAM AL-QURAN. Ini mengambil kira penyimpangan dari segi tatabahasa dan nahu Bahasa Arab yang lazim dan sempurna.
Ini telah memaksakan ahli-ahli tafsir al-Quran bergegas-gegas dan bergumul untuk mencari penjelasan ‘yang munasabah’ untuk membenarkan penyelewengan-penyelewengan itu.”
(23 Years – A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, 1985,Ali Dashti, ms.50)
Seorang ahli cendekia seperti Ali Dashti, cukup mantap ilmu keislamannya, oleh kerana pelajaran dan pengajian beliau dengan ulamak-ulamak terkenal di pusat-pusat Islam dan madrasah-madrasah di Iraq. Bahasa Arab beliau cukup lancar kefasihannya kerana dia juga telah menulis banyak bahan-bahan ilmiah keislaman dan buku-buku kesasteraan lain dari tahun 1936 sehingga 1974, yakni selama sekurang-kurangnya 38 tahun! Beliau juga telah bersandang jawatan Menteri Luar Negara kerajaannya.
Being found on sites like ‘Answering-islam.org’ does not detract at all from the impact and truthfulness of Ali Dashti’s admissions. – that the quran is error-filled and also fallacious and thus, dubious and doubtful as a source for facts, at best.
So, zaid and other muslim missionaries like yourself, don’t be a hypocrite and throw stones at the Bible and the Gospel of Sayidina Isa Al-Masih, when your own quran is so full of inconsistencies and factual errors and problems that seriously call into question its validity and authenticity! You live in a glass house and your stones have crashed your own islamic and quranic world to pieces! Your quran is the real worthless piece of human editions, nothing else…pity you all! The facts show this up so clearly – except for your blinded eyes-lah…kesian sekali…!
Hamzah.
Hamzah quoted:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
‘ Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their – the people of SHAM and IRAQ (all muslims!)- differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to ‘Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before THEY DIFFER about the Book (Quran) …”
___________________________________________________________
This is an issue of Quran pronounciation by non Arabs, not differences in texts. I’ve also explained how Uthman ra appealed to all Muslims to dispose non-verified copies of Quran. Many Muslims kept their own records of Quran based on what they’ve heard or received from others who have heard from the prophet as those unverified may contain errors. Verified copies of Quran still exist and are preserved till today.
___________________________________________________________
Who is Ali Dashti?
Your claims on Ali Dashti authenticity is crap. You simply twist the term authenticity when dealing with Islam but accepted your Bible as the inspired words of God which never came from Jesus himself, far from being authenticated.
The truth about Ali Dashti, a Marxist-influenced Iranian who cannot be considered as an Islamic scholar. According to the translator’s introduction of his book (from which the christian missionary quoted) , it appears he rejected Islam for “patriotism” and established a newspaper called “Red Dawn”.
He is only representing himself with his own ideas and opinions like Salman Rushdie but these aren’t “authentic views” as you claimed. Christians just love to quote forgeries, chainless narrations, a muslim sect, eccentric commentaries, biased translations, a columnist of the New York Times and comments made by this Marxist-influenced Iranian.
Moreover he appeared to be an activist in Soviet Socialist issues and was invited to Russia to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the revolution. On several occassions, imprisoned due to his radical views and political reasons. You lay your trust on Ali Dashti and his likes, just to support your claims, but ignore his backgrounds to determine the level of his credibility and integrity. This guy is Iranian, yet trying to comment on the language of Quran which wasn’t his mother tongue. He definitely doesn’t deserve any credit to be a Muslim Scholar and never earned any credential of being Arabic linguist.
___________________________________________________________
FYI Hamzah,
Quran is used as the reference or dictionary for Arabic grammar. How could a Dictionary itself fails? By the way the Quran puts the Arabic Grammar rules not vice versa. Technically the Quran rules over Arabic Grammar , and Arabic Grammar does not rule over Quran.
____________________________________________________________
Sources of the rules of Arabic Grammar is from Quran.
The known rules of Arabic grammar were deduced from studying the spoken Arabic language, its poetry, and most of all: the Quran.
The first treatise on Arabic grammar ever, was written down by ibn Ajroom during the khalifate of imaam Ali ibn abi Taalib (radiallaahu `anhu), thus after the Quran’s revelation.
Ali once heard his daughter commit a grammatical error, upon which he ordered Ibn Ajroom to write down the rules of the Arabic language. Imaam `Ali himself “coined” the word “nahoo” (with “h” like in Al Rahmaan) which means grammar: He explained to Ibn Ajroom how a couple of rules could be stated, and told him to follow that example: unhu `alaa haazal nahoo. Ibn Ajroom deducted the rules of grammar from his knowledge of the spoken language, poetry and above all, the Quran. What he wrote was the first collection of the rules of Arabic grammar, and became known as “Al Ajroomiyyah”, and the science was termed ‘ilm al Nahoo.
(This information can be found in the introduction of most versions of “Al Ajroomiyyah”, available from specialized bookstores.)
Before Ibn Ajroom, there were simply no written rules for the Arabic Grammar.
In the centuries after him, other linguists and scholars also analyzed the Arabic language and elaborated further on its rules, all deduced from previous literature, poetry and the Quran.
Please learn proper history before you post anything blindly.
You Christians are desperados.
Best Regards
According to….. Zaid
Still waiting for your Bible Authenticity Proofs.
Hello,
Great explanation Zaid. Your explanation is so neat and direct to the point, unlike Hamzah’s which is mixed up, long and mostly copy paste ( including typical childish jeering ) but only serves as a reflection of his mixed up belief.
He even quoted from Ali Dashti, a persian who has no credibility in Arabic and hailed him as an objective intellectual devout muslim:
BUT, let us listen to another learned AND HONEST muslim scholar, who went to islamic seminary and university in Iraq and knows what he is talking about – unlike so manyu muslims HERE…:-)) Hamzah
Seorang ahli cendekia seperti Ali Dashti, cukup mantap ilmu keislamannya, oleh kerana pelajaran dan pengajian beliau dengan ulamak-ulamak terkenal di pusat-pusat Islam dan madrasah-madrasah di Iraq. Bahasa Arab beliau cukup lancar kefasihannya kerana dia juga telah menulis banyak bahan-bahan ilmiah keislaman dan buku-buku kesasteraan lain dari tahun 1936 sehingga 1974, yakni selama sekurang-kurangnya 38 tahun! Beliau juga telah bersandang jawatan Menteri Luar Negara kerajaannya.
(Ali Dashti, 23 Years) quoted by Hamzah
But, how come a person in his caliber use Zoroastrian company to publish his book? MAZDA IS A PERSIAN ZOROASTRIAN GOD. He is no more than desperados like Hamzah and the likes.
Look below:
: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, ‘M-A-Z-D-A Publishers, Costa Mesa, California, 1994, pages 48,50)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda
Tony
The language of the Holy Qur’an represents the purest Arabic speech for it was uttered by an Arab in a pure Arabic society and challenged by the most eloquent Arabs who mentioned none of its alleged errors. It is well known that the Arabs during lifetime of the Prophet (P) reached the summit of eloquence and artistry of speech; and it is known as well that those Arabs were the most aggressive and motivated opponents to the message of Islam.
So here, they had two important criteria: (a) they were capable of refuting the language of the Qur’an and exposing its errors, and (b) were much motivated to do so. In other words, they combined the ability and the motive to discover any linguistic errors in the Qur’an. However, they did not which means that there were no errors to discover or to expose.
On the other hand, the Prophet (P) kept challenging them with the Qur’an time after time again, abusing their gods and beliefs, attacking their polytheistic traditions, conquering their lands and killing their fathers, brothers and sons in battlefields, and they were able to combat all this by pointing one linguistic error such as “plural instead of singular” or “accusative instead of nominative”, but they did not!
Do you know why?
Because they were eloquent Arabs living in pure Arabic society, they knew that polemical arguments like these would bring them nothing but mockery.
So, what about the list of these alleged errors?
We answer with the fact that Arabs altogether had accepted the Holy Qur’an as most eloquent speech that no human being can match or even object to. Then we ask the Christian polemicists: Are you more knowledgeable about Arabic language and its usage than the ancient Arabs of the Prophet’s lifetime?
of course, not!
Those Arabs knew their language by nature, so they conceived it all. This is in contrast to the modern-day Arabs — let alone non-Arabs — who acquire it by studying and learning. In spite of this, they fail to conceive the entire Arabic language, especially rules and uses which eventually died in time and is no longer used in everyday speech or writing.
So when Arab Christians start to compare the grammar of the Holy Qur’an with the high-school curricular of Arabic grammar, they surely fall into serious fallacies; one of them being their ignorance of the normal historical sequence in the development of any language. Remember: { have you no understanding? }
The second fallacy is their miserable selection of some rules of Arabic grammar, considering them as absolute and rejecting the fact that the Arabic language is very vast and that it involves so many rules that are not included in the high school curriculum of Arabic grammar.
They indeed have no understanding!
Salam Bro Tony,
Guess u r Muslim. A good point you wrote there. Christians missionaries are so desperate and screwed to prove Islam false. However Truth always triumph over falsehood, insya Allah.
Wassalam
To Tony Aryadi
Whenever a person becomes an ex-Muslim, other Muslims will attempt to demolish the reasons given by the ex-Muslim for leaving Islam (e.g. such as the ex-Muslim had poor knowledge of Islam ,,, etc). Your comment ” …Ali Dashti, a persian who has no credibility in Arabic .. ” is not unexpected.
I wish to high-light Dr. Mustafa ( now known as Mark Gabriel) who was previously an Imam in Egypt — From WikiIslam – “Dr Mustafa (Now Mark Gabriel) Former Muslim Imam, Ex-Professor in Al Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt ” or WIKI -”List of former Muslims”.
We cannot say that he has little knowledge of Islam, can we. There is so much Islamic propaganda. I need not say more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tds8–EOEsk
Hi Sonlight,
Hahaha, great entertainment by this “fake” muslim. I’ve watched his video thru’, even his brief recitation of Quran and hadith is not fluent with poor “tajwid”. How possibly can he be an Imam. A good recitation observing the Tajwid rules is basic for all Muslims especially an Imam. How did he graduate from Al-Azhar?
His continuous story telling about Muhammad pbuh and Islam without quoting or reciting any references, hadis or Quran verses shows his ignorance about Islam. He’s plainly memorizing his scripts of lies about Islam and its so obvious. All his false accounts about Muhammad and Islam proved his ignorance, without proofs or supported text.
His false claims:
Had memorized Quran at 12 and did not understand the meaning until he completed his Bachelors Degree?? How could he qualify for Al-Azhar when he didn’t understand arabic and Quran??
Al-Azhar disallow students from posting questions?? Is there any such university? If it ist rue, not just him but the whole campus will follow his footsteps.
Because of his apostasy, he was expelled from Al-Azhar and kdnapped and tortured by secret police?
His Non-muslim stereotyped “out of context” verse “Kill all the jews wherever you find them…” (The context of this verse is for self defense ie, if Muslims were attacked. If the enemies want to settle for peace, then Allah prohibits further war and killings.)
DID THIS GUY REALLY KNOWS QURAN?? Read Surah Al-Baqarah for the full context.
Muhammad was sent to kill all pigs and destroy the cross, Even allowed early Muslims to cosume alcohol before prayer and goes back to cosume alcohol after prayer?
I quote a portion of his fake and stupid story about Muhammad:
“Muhammad tried to lure ppl to Islam by saying “You can drink alcohol. No problem, then you come to prayer. After that you can drink alcohol again.” Later Muhammad add the verse in Quran prohibiting alcohol and the ppl were angry. Muhammad said ” No problem be patient, Allah will reward you with rivers of alcohol in paradise”. This is how Muhammad tricked ppl into Islam.” LOL
Hahaha, Sonlight this guy is quite entertaining. Anymore recommendation?
Peace
Islam is Truth
Dear Sonlight,
There’s no neccesity to quote anyone as an example be it Muslim or Christian converts to prove a religion’s superiority. From time to time, such things happened for each of their personal and individual reasons. Quran says” There’s no compulsion in religion.”
Truth can only be proven by wisdom and valid reasons. God has given each human with sound mind and common sense to differentiate between Truth and Falsehood.
OUr heart is dear to God, but we are veiled from God due to our lustful and worldly desire. God is not what we can imagine or what we can present. God is not human nor any of His Creations. However, the omnipresence of God dwell within our body and soul, every life and each of God’s creations. Truth manifest itself in the entire world, as like the Light from the Sun shines upon each of us. The rays reaches us, being a sign of His Existence. God gives Life to us, as God’s presence becomes part of our breath.
Explain to me then, where can you find God or your Jesus? Islam is the straight path to reach God, Allah the Almighty.
Peace
Islam is Truth.
Dear Christians,
You guys totally have no idea or have any clue about God’s existence.
Allah has said in surah Fussilat verse 53:
“Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes clear to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord witness all things?”
I’ve given you many hints. God is not far, not isolated, not separated by near to His Creations.
Don’t you guys get it?
To Zaid
As you deny the authenticity of the books the Bible, you also refuse to accept the testimony of Mark Gabriel (ex-Imam) and say he is a fake. ( This is no surprise to me as I have seen this reaction from other Muslims before.)
(I give you some credit though, as you say: “zaid, Mar 2nd, 2010 at 11:06 pm
Dear Sonlight,
There’s no neccesity to quote anyone as an example be it Muslim or Christian converts to prove a religion’s superiority. From time to time, such things happened for each of their personal and individual reasons. ..”)
To Tony Aryadi,
Regarding Ali Dashti, you say “But, how come a person in his caliber use Zoroastrian company to publish his book? MAZDA IS A PERSIAN ZOROASTRIAN GOD. He is no more than desperados like Hamzah and the likes.” – Tony Aryadi, Mar 2nd, 2010 at 3:46 pm.
Sonlight says: I am not certain that the publishing company Ali Dasti used was Zoroastrian (You may be right). But do you really expect Islamic publishing companies to be eager to print his writings which are critical of Islam. (You might as well ask Christian companies that print Bibles to print the Islamic propaganda of Ahmad Deedat.) I believe you are in error here. Looks like you are the desperado.
Dear Sonlight,
We will not deny any truth, if such is proven true. To the extend of quoting and believing one’s opinions and views, we should first research in detailed into his backgrounds and personal biography to ascertain his credibility.
You don’t lay your trust on strangers even though he may appear to your likeness, do you? To a certain degree, we should find concrete proofs and evidences that he is what he claimed to be.
If I tell you I am an ex-Professor of Bible Studies, would you believe me? I believed you’ll definitely insist on concrete evidences to ascertain that I’m speaking the truth. Or Christians are so accustomed to lay trust on strangers as long as they are in your favour, since you don’t even mind about the anonymous Gospel writers before entrusting your faith and salvation to them.
Peace
Salam
If I tell you I am an ex-Professor of Bible Studies, would you believe me? I believed you’ll definitely insist on concrete evidences to ascertain that I’m speaking the truth. Or Christians are so accustomed to lay trust on strangers as long as they are in your favour, since you don’t even mind about the anonymous Gospel writers before entrusting your faith and salvation to them. Zaid.
Quran, as the book of guidance, never fails to address humankind their situation and inclination and the reason for that.
53:23 These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but CONJECTURE and what their own souls DESIRE!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord! Holy Quran
53:23 (Malay) “Itu tidak lain hanyalah nama-nama yang kamu dan bapak-bapak kamu mengada-adakannya; Allah tidak menurunkan suatu keterangan pun untuk (menyembah tuhan-tuhan ciptaan mereka). Mereka tidak lain hanyalah mengikuti SANGKAAN-SANGKAAN, dan apa yang diingini oleh HAWA NAFSU mereka, dan sesungguhnya telah datang petunjuk kepada mereka dari Tuhan mereka.” Quran.
How concise Quran is in explaining their situation today.
To Zaid
Today I wish, again to highlight your misunderstanding (or misrepresentation) of facts.
You say:ZAID,Feb 27th, 2010 at 7:43 pm “….. The Christians boast of an excess of 24,000 “ancient manuscripts” of the Bible dating all the way back to the fourth century after Christ (But not back to Christ or the apostles themselves). All Bibles in existence today are compiled from these “ancient manuscripts.
In other words, their gospels only date back to the century when the Trinitarians took over the Christian Church. This was how the Trinity beliefs come into existence, not the real Jesus teachings.
They never seem to realize that all manuscripts from before this period have strangely perished. Or they are simply too embarassed to admit, yet still adamant that they are in the right path.” – Zaid
Sonlight’s reply: From my reading; before the forth century (i.e the year 300 A.D – 399 A.D) the more common writing material was plant material called papyri. Papyri is less long-lasting than animal skin that was used as writing material from the forth century onwards. This explains why we come across statements that there are complete collections of books that form the Bible from the forth century onwards only. (The Bible Books written on papyri before the forth century are less complete and in fragments)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri
Your statement “(Christians) never seem to realize that all manuscripts from before this period (forth century) have strangely perished.” – Zaid – is another fine example of Islamic propaganda.
There are earlier manuscripts of the Bible ( though less complete). And if parts of the earlier manuscripts have “perished”, the reason for their perishing is not strange.
To Zaid
You say:-’So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body…. ‘ zaid,Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am,
My reply: You are twisting the words of the Bible. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59).
How does what you say:”So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body..,(Zaid)” tie in with the statement : ” ..before Abraham was(existed)..”(John 8:58-59). Where is the connection? _______________________________________________________
Zaid’s reply : “It is mentioned in the Quran, that God has created our Ruh (Soul or spirit) long before the existence of the entire universe. Our Ruh has testify that God is our Lord, even before any human including ADAM is created or born.
One who already aquire full knowledge of his origin and Inner Self definitely has full awareness that he has existed long before he was born to this world. So, Jesus has spoken the truth, on behalf of all human who are born and created in this world.” – zaid, Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:05 pm -
Sonlight: A very “creative” explanation to try to answer my question -{How does what you say:”So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body..,(Zaid)” tie in with the statement : ” ..before Abraham was(existed).”(John 8:58-59). Where is the connection? }
But you will run into problems with that “creative” explanation because not only Jesus said He existed before Abraham; another prophet said something similar. John the Baptist said in (John1:29,30) – ” 29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ (NIV)
John the Baptist is before Jesus in two ways. Firstly, John the Baptist is older than Jesus the man ( read Luke 1). Secondly John is the prophet before Jesus. Yet John the baptist says “he (Jesus) was before me”.
If you were to say that the Ruh of Jesus existed before the beginning of the world, what about the Ruh of John the Baptist?(Perhaps Jesus Ruh was created before John the Baptist Ruh???) Your explanation is nonsensical Islamic propaganda.
Sonlight,
By trying to prove Jesus existence was prior Abraham or John or whosoever, is that a proof that Jesus is God? Did he say he was before any creation? Or did he say he was the creator of Abraham or John? Angels was created long before Adam and Jesus. So are Angels God then? Why didn’t Jesus claim ” before Adam, I AM? ” BTW, the story goes such that Jesus said ” Before Abraham, I AM…”, when the Jews hurled stones at him while Jesus ran and hid. There are other Greek translations which mentioned Jesus says “I HAVE”, NOT “I AM”. So what can be the interpretation here?
There could be a possibility that Jesus had not completed his sentences as he was interrupted by the Jews who hurled stones at him, so Jesus fled and hid. If Jesus is God, why would he ran and hid? Can’t God overcome the Jews assault? Also, who actually was with Jesus who then recorded these occurrences and what was said by Jesus? Again a chainless narration and witnesses by mysterious authors which equal to FALSE.
I always see Christians quoted verses without showing the whole context. Merely quote what they want others to believe as what they believe. eg. I and My Father are one? I am the Alpha and Omega? Before Abraham, I AM (What are the context that lead to these words?) A fact that Christians would like NOT to show.
Peace
Hi Sonlight
You quoted:
A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ (NIV)
Was John actually implying on Jesus Existence? I’ve read through the whole context, the disciples were only looking Jesus up as a a Rabbi “Teacher”. No where was it talking about Jesus Existence prior John.
Peace
To Zaid
Muslims, I perceive, attack Christian beliefs in 2 ways.
Firstly, Muslims say Christians interpret the Bible wrongly. Secondly, Muslims say the Bible no longer holds the true message of Jesus as the message has been changed.
I feel that you should stick to the second way of attack as you will look ridiculous if you use the first. I say this because there is at least one Muslim who admits that the Bible is supportive of Christian beliefs. (i.e. – Syukri, Nov 21st, 2009 at 8:16 pm -”…Now,Can Bible be used as proof? No. Why? Because Bible is biased to Christians just like Quran is biased to Muslims….” – Syukri – on the blog-site ‘ Why I am following Jesus’ .
Since this Muslim says ” Bible is biased to Christians”, you are actually on the losing side if you attack Christian beliefs from this angle.
You have written more nonsense. I will answer one or two to show your lack of understanding.
zaid, Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am –” Why didn’t Jesus claim ” before Adam, I AM? ” – zaid
Sonlight’s reply : Jesus could easily have said -” before Adam, I AM? ” but in the CONTEXT in which the words ‘I AM” appears ( John 8:56-59 ) Jesus and the Jews were mentioning Abraham. So it is more relevant to mention Abraham rather than Adam.
Also you say:” I always see Christians quoted verses without showing the whole context. Merely quote what they want others to believe as what they believe. eg. I and My Father are one? I am the Alpha and Omega? Before Abraham, I AM (What are the context that lead to these words?) A fact that Christians would like NOT to show. – zaid’ Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am.
Actually, it is the Muslims who take words out of context from the Bible and try to make the Bible say what it does not say.
To Zaid
You say: zaid, Mar 1st, 2010 at 10:01 am”……. Please address the issue how your bible can be the words of God, since the writers were anonymous. No references, no last names and no gospels written during Jesus life.” – Zaid.
Sonlight’s comment: I wish to focus on your statement- ” … and no gospels written during Jesus life.” – Zaid.
This shows a difference in understanding of what the Gospel is. The word ‘ gospel’ – ” (from Old English, g?d spell “good news”) is a writing that describes the life of Jesus. …The term “Gospel” refers also to the message itself of the four Gospels or of the whole New Testament. …” – from WIKI.
The Gospel message, as I understand it, is that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of man. –
1 Peter 2:24 “He (Christ) himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.” Many persons (including Christians) say ‘gospel” and mean the books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But the Gospel is actually a message that Jesus died for the sins of man and rose from the dead. (The Gospel message therefore is also found outside of the four books commonly called ” the Four Gospels”.
The rising from the dead(resurrection) of Jesus is at the center of Christianity. If there were no resurrection, there would be no Christianity.
Matthew 16:21 Jesus Predicts His Death
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. – (NIV)
Also John 2:18 -22
18Then the Jews demanded of him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. – NIV
The Gospel message is about the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is why it was written after Jesus had died and risen from the dead. That is why “no gospels written during Jesus life.” as you say.
Peace…. out
Hi Sonlight,
Just pondering if Jesus was sent down as God, then who did the other prophets before him worshipped? Did the other prophets mentioned that God will become his own Son named Jesus and appear to this world, so everyone should worship this God alias His SON? Did Moses, David, Solomon etc.. worship Jesus in their lives?? God who created the gigantic universe is too weak to forgive human sins, that He needs to sacrifice Himself alias His Son for human sins?
So please explain how the Holy Spirit can be fitted into the picture as the 3rd being in the Trinity??? Since God is Father, Jesus is Son, What is the Holy Ghost then??
Thinking how absurd it is, God turned Himself into a Holy Spirit (God) and entered into Mary’s womb to be born as his own Son, whom later predicted his OWN DEATH to show his love for mankind? 9 months in Mary’s womb, what was God doing inside? Administer the world? What did God do during his teens until the age of 30? How ridiculous that God was born as a weak baby, circumcised, grown up like normal human, ate, drank, slept, purging out wastes after ate and drank, received sufferings and tortures by his enemies, ran and hid when hurled by stones, etc…, all these weaknesses are part of God?
For very sure, the Pagans were hard core Idol worshippers. The Triune beliefs already existed way before Jesus birth, as like Hinduism etc.. So its no surprise that God sent his messengers one after another to bring the ppl back to the straight path. But soon after each prophets departure, the original teachings were destroyed or corrupted to suit their pagan beliefs. Like u mentioned, due to scarcity of paper, the teachings were not recorded into writings. So how can you be very sure about its authenticity??
Eventually, Prophet Muhammad pbuh was sent as the last and final prophet. God himself assures that He will protect the Quran till the end of the world. Indeed, no other prophet came after Muhammad and the Quran is still intact and preserved till this very day. Could prophet Muhammad pbuh be very sure about this if it wasn’t from God.
Christians are just lost.
Peace
Hi Sonlight,
So much of our discussion, I guess you have no answer if I ask you where is God! Your Jesus had departed and left you no clue or contact.
I’ve explained many times, that God is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent. You just can’t fit Jesus into these criteria while your faith is based on conjectures.
Read thoroughly below to give you understanding on the 3 Omnis. (From the Islamic book of Hakikat (Knowledge of God))
_________________________________________________________
Phenomenal being is utter and total darkness. It is only the manifestation of the Truth in it that gives it light.
When you see phenomenal being and do not see Him in it, with it, before it or after it, then you are truly in need of light.
You are veiled from the suns of gnosis by the clouds of secondary traces. One way He shows you the existence of His overwhelming power is by veiling you from Him by that which cannot exist alongside Him.
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One who is manifest by everything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One who is made manifest in everything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One who is manifest to everything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He was the One who was Manifest before there was anything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is more manifest than anything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One with whom there is nothing else?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One who is nearer to you than anything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when if it had not been for Him, there would not have been anything?
A marvel!
See how existence becomes manifest in non-existence!
How the in-time holds firm alongside Him whose attribute is eternal..
God is Near, Not Far, Not Isolated, Not Separated Not Limited by time and space.Need more to find God??
How conscise is Islam to guide man to the path towards God. Subhanallah!
Peace
To Zaid
This is a response to your post: -zaid, Mar 1st, 2010 at 10:56 am
“Why I am convinced Islam is true. Because……….” (Zaid) and you give your reasons.
“[Will they not ponder the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it.] (An-Nisaa’ 4: 82) as quoted by Zaid
My reply: Muslims cannot admit to any inconsistencies in the Quran although these have been pointed out. If you admit that there are inconsistencies, can you still be a Muslim?
On a related point, some Muslims are so dissatisfied with the Hadiths that they reject it all together. The reality is : there are issues with your holy book and traditions. You just choose not to see it.
[We have sent down the Reminder, and We will preserve it.] (Al-Hijr 15: 9
You can delude yourself into thinking that the Quran has remain unchanged since the time of Muhammad. But the fact that there are sects, different schools of thought, different sets of Hadiths (which explain the Quran) for different sects,… means that the original message has been lost to some extent. It is no use saying that the Quran has been preserved (which many doubt) when Muslims cannot all agree on what its says. The difference in opinion indicates that its original message has not been preserved (- Not that it was ever the word of God even if perfectly preserved)
[If you have doubts about what We have sent down to Our servant, produce another surah equal to it, and call your witnesses,... ] (Al-Baqarah 2: 23-24)
My reply: I read that others have produced writing that is superior to the Quran. Muslims cannot admit that, of course.
As for the call for witnesses; there is strangely no witness when Muhammad claimed to have talked to the angel Jibril. (I shall address the issue of witnesses in Christianity later, God-willing)
“The Truth indeed, no other prophets, books or religion had come after Muhammad. ” – Zaid
My reply: There are others who came after Muhammad who claimed to be prophets and had their own holy books (like the Mormons). As a Muslim you cannot accept them (of course). You are making nonsense statements.
“I have lots of proofs to be presented to you about Quran, however it is best if you could read and judge it yourself if you are truly looking for the Truth. Anyway, the choice is yours.” – Zaid
My reply: I am not certain that what you have written earlier is an attempt to prove Islam true. But certainly it is a lot of propaganda.
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
You sounds desperate to disprove Islam and Quran.
You say many Muslims are dissatisfied and rejected the Hadis that explains Quran.
My reply:
For your info, Hadis is not Quran. Hadis is a collection of prophets Muhammad words, acts, consents or prohibitions which not in any way has affected the Quran. There could be weak or false hadis and these were determined at the strictest scrutiny by Islamic Scholars but nothing affects the basic teachings of Islam. Weak or false hadis were collections from unknown or weak sources, chainless narrations or there exist serious doubts over the narrators credibility or integrity. Quran is still in its original text, no change. Hence weak or false Hadis are rejected without rejecting the Quran itself.
You say, some Muslims can’t agree with what Quran says. There are different school of thoughts in Islam.
My reply:
There are indeed difference of ideas and opinions on the way of practices and interpretations on Quran, not disputes over Quranic texts. We have 4 mazhabs who are Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki and Syafi’e but there’s no major contradictions among the 4 on the rules and beliefs in Islam, only some variations in practices. The 4 mazhabs derived their teachings and fatwa based on Quran and are acknowledged world wide by all Muslims and Islamic scholars.
You claim there’s a religion after Islam and also books more superior than Quran.
My Reply:
Is there any major religion and books after Islam? Please quote one to support your claims.
Sonlight, what you have pointed did not in any way prove that Quran has lost its authenticity. Some Muslim Scholars may translate it differently but all are still within the boundary of its context, meanings and teachings. You questioned on Muhammads encounter with Arch Angel Gabriel. There are narrations which Arch angel Gabriel appeared in the presence of Muhammad’s companions. However you may not believe me if I present them to you.
At the least, we all agree that Quran came from Muhammad. You should ponder over your bible instead, which obviously does not come from Jesus himself.
Also, I have presented a brief explanation about God’s Existence in Islamic context. Please explain about your Jesus whereabouts and his presence in this world. Has your God loses his Omnipresence, since he is now absent from the world? You can call it Islamic propaganda and you have to provide a better explanation to support your beliefs.
Guess you need to present something more concrete to disprove Quran. You are definitely in headless direction since you don’t know where to find Jesus now.
Peace
God is near, not far, isolated nor separated. I AM… with my own Creations.
Dear Bros & Sis,
Did Jesus truly and had willingly sacrificed himself for human sins?
Jesus died an accursed death?
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree”.
(Galatians 3:13)
________________________________________________________________________________
Jesus died unwillingly and lamented to God?
According to John (19:14) it was about the sixth hour of the day (Friday) that Pilate spoke last to the Jews vis-a-vis Jesus crucifixion and handed him over to them.
“And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, LAMA SABACHTHANI, My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Mark 15:33, 34).
________________________________________________________________________________
Criminals were left to die a slow death on the cross, but not for Jesus??
Interestingly, criminals who were crucified were left to die on the cross. Such usually took more than just few hours or probably days that the criminals will slowly die of thirst, hunger, dehydration and injuries. This was how the Romans tortured their prisoners and criminals.
But….. Jesus died only after about 3 hours? What were the possible reasons?
“Then came the soldiers and break the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they break not his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water”.
(John 19: 3-234)
A dead body will not purge waters or blood when pierced. Strangely this happened to Jesus dead body… ?? Did Jesus really have died?
________________________________________________________________________________
Three writers of the Gospels state that there was darkness over all the land from the sixth to the ninth hour and that there was an earthquake and the rocks were rent and the veil of the temple was rent in twain. It is a matter of common experience at the time of a severe dust-storm accompanied by an earthquake, people generally hasten to go home and they do not enjoy the luxury of a bloody sight-seeing.
Now imagine for a moment, who could stand as an eye-witness to tell the story that Jesus actually died on the cross. The Jews, if, at all, there were any on the spot, must have run away at the sight of the rising storm and the shaking of the earth must have frightened them to turn on their heels and hasten to their homes. As to the disciples they had already fled from the scene of the crucifixion.
“Peter began to curse and to swear saying, l know not this man (Jesus) of whom you speak”(Mark 14:50).
“And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled” (Mark 14:71).
To be brief, there was no one present on the scene who could definitely and certainly say that he saw Jesus ‘giving up the ghost’. This is all mere conjecture and imagination. Or shall I say is just a Cruci”Fiction”.
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Zaid
This is in reply to your post:- Zaid, Mar 9th, 2010 at 9:37 pm -
You accuse Christians of reading words of the Bible out of context (zaid, Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am).
Here you take parts of the Bible story and try to make it say what you want.
But your version of events causes many questions. e.g.
Do you believe there was a darkness that covered the earth and an earthquake at the supposed death of Jesus ((Mark 15:33, 34). I ask this because you are quoting the Bible (which suggest that some things recorded in the Bible you accept as true; but Muslims pick and choose only parts of the Bible as accurate ??? – biased selection.)
If Jesus did not die, then there is a clear contradiction with very many statements that is related to His death and resurrection. (Matthew 16:21 )(John 2:18 -22) (1 Peter 2:24 )(Acts 5:30) (Luke 22:19,20)….etc. (I am sure you can produce more ‘creative’ explanations to account for that.)
Did Jesus mislead everyone into thinking that he had died on the cross. ( He certainly said he would die and rise again).
If the disciples were mistaken, why did Jesus not correct this mistake?
Most of the disciples were killed believing that Jesus died and rose from the dead.(e.g (Acts 5:30) Did they die for a lie?
Just a sample of the questions that arises when Muslims try to deny the death and resurrection of Jesus. (Islamic theory of the mentioned events is full of holes.)
Something for all to consider.
Peace……. out
Dear Bros & Sis,
The 12 disciple persecutions do not come with any reliable historical or traditional support. Are you very sure that they died for defending their faith for Jesus as their saviour and God? Do anyone know what their true faith was?
To my comprehension, all genuine Jesus followers were persecuted with not a single spared. Your dearest Paul Tarsus was a bounty hunter, before he claimed he had a vision on Jesus and “converted to christianity”. Your christianity beliefs today originated from Paul not Jesus or any of Jesus disciples.
I’m wondering, if Hitler after his persecutions of the Jews, suddenly claimed he had a vision and start to write books of religion for the Jews, would any Jew follow him?
I don’t understand how Christians could lay their trust on Paul’s writings after what this evil guy had done to persecute all Jesus true followers. For sure ALL jesus genuine follwers had been totally wiped off from this earth, before Paul started his new religion which is called “Christianity” today.
It is quite obvious that not at any time did Paul and the Romans accepted what Jesus had preached. So Paul deliberately corrupted Jesus teachings to suit his Pagan beliefs to make it appealing to the Romans who were the Sun God worshippers. That was why Constantine changed the Jews Sabbath Day from Saturday to SUN day which complies to his former worship of the SUN GOD. In actual fact, the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands.
Don’t you ever wonder how come nothing had been written about Jesus and his teachings during his life? It is obvious Paul and the Romans had deliberately massacred and destroyed ALL Jesus followers & teachings. Paul then started his False Trinity beliefs claiming he had “reverted” to Jesus after getting a “false” vision. Who could confirmed what Paul had claim was true?
Peace
Islam is pure and the Truth.
Dear Bros & Sis,
Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me…” (Matthew 26:39). Why was Jesus reluctant to face death? Ain’t Jesus God Almighty who ruled the entire creations? Who was he praying to? Himself?
Why is God praying to God? Isn’t it unusual. While Christians often choose the words to claim Jesus God, they ignore the many signs of weakneses in Jesus, the praying of Jesus to the God AlMighty which definitely is someone Greater than Jesus.
Jesus mentioned my Father is Greater than I. So, can this verse be interpreted that Jesus is His Father ie God? Isn’t it clearly shows there’s a distinction between these 2 beings?
Peace
To Zaid
You said: ” That was why Constantine changed the Jews Sabbath Day from Saturday to SUN day which complies to his former worship of the SUN GOD. In actual fact, the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands……..It is obvious Paul and the Romans had deliberately massacred and destroyed ALL Jesus followers & teachings. Paul then started his False Trinity beliefs claiming he had “reverted” to Jesus after getting a “false” vision. …” -zaid, Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:46 am.
When Muslims attack Christian beliefs, Muslim explanations is full of holes.
You say : “…Constantine changed the Jews Sabbath Day from Saturday to SUN day which complies to his former worship of the SUN GOD…” – Zaid.
Sonlights reply: From my reading, Christians are required to set aside one day a week to worship God. (What day it is is less important.) However the practice to worship God on Sunday eventually gained ground. One reason could be because Sunday is the day Lord Jesus rose from the dead. Also in Acts 20:7 (New International Version)- “7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread……”. we see the followers of Jesus “break bread” i.e. gather as Christians do on Sunday. (FYI – ” the first day of the week ” is Sunday.) This happened before Constantine was born and is mentioned in the Bible.
You say :”..It is obvious Paul and the Romans had deliberately massacred and destroyed ALL Jesus followers & teachings. Paul then started his False Trinity beliefs claiming he had “reverted” to Jesus after getting a “false” vision. …” -zaid, Mar 11th, 2010
Sonlights reply: You have got the sequence of events as recorded in the Bible wrong.
Paul had his vision first. Later he went to see Saint Peter. Paul also went to see James, a leader in the early church (Galatians 1:19). James (1 Corinthians 15:3-8) was one of those to whom Jesus appeared after Jesus rose from the dead.
Saint Peter says of Paul’s writing:2 Peter 3:15,16“15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” – NIV
Saint Peter implies that what Paul is writing is God’s word (Scriptures). Paul has Peter’s stamp of approval.
You are wrong. Paul had not “massacred and destroyed ALL Jesus followers & teachings.”
Either you do not know your Bible history or you are trying to distort it to make it fit your biased views.
Lastly you say:”In actual fact, the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands….”- zaid.
So you are saying that Almighty God’s message through Jesus (who was so special he was born of a virgin, could raise the dead and do other miracles and is considered as one of the greatest prophets in Islam) was destroyed by the time of Paul (by Paul with the help of the Romans) leaving the world in darkness as to the true message of God for 500 years until Muhammad.
This sounds to me like an insult to the strength of the Almighty.
Jesus as a Reincarnation of Mithra the Pagan God?? Interesting Article on the Roots of Christianity.
_______________________________________________________________________________
The Vatican was built upon the grounds previously devoted to the worship of Mithra (600 B.C.). The Orthodox Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version. Virtually all of the elements of Orthodox Christian rituals, from miter, wafer, water baptism, alter, and doxology, were adopted from the Mithra and earlier pagan mystery religions. The religion of Mithra preceded Christianity by roughly six hundred years. Mithraic worship at one time covered a large portion of the ancient world. It flourished as late as the second century. The Messianic idea originated in ancient Persia and this is where the Jewish and Christian concepts of a Savior came from. Mithra, as the sun god of ancient Persia, had the following karmic similarities with Jesus:
Identical Life Experiences
(1) Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: “Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven’s own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator” (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).
(2) He was considered a great traveling teacher and masters. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.
(3) Mithra was called “the good shepherd, “the way, the truth and the light, redeemer, savior, Messiah.” He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.
(4) The International Encyclopedia states: “Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world … The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part.”
(5) Chambers Encyclopedia says: “The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed — against all evidence — as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries — symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) — were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts.”
(6) Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: “The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians’, purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord’s supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December….
They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the Earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe” (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).
(7) Reverend Charles Biggs stated: “The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).
(8) In the catacombs at Rome was preserved a relic of the old Mithraic worship. It was a picture of the infant Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, while on their knees before him were Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts.
(9) He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
(10) McClintock and Strong wrote: “In modern times Christian writers have been induced to look favorably upon the assertion that some of our ecclesiastical usages (e.g., the institution of the Christmas festival) originated in the cultus of Mithraism. Some writers who refuse to accept the Christian religion as of supernatural origin, have even gone so far as to institute a close comparison with the founder of Christianity; and Dupuis and others, going even beyond this, have not hesitated to pronounce the Gospel simply a branch of Mithraism” (Art. “Mithra”).
(11) Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. His sacred day was Sunday, “the Lord’s Day.” The Mithra religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper.”
(12) The Christian Father Manes, founder of the heretical sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: “Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras … His residence is in the sun” (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5).
“I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths.” – Mithraic saying
“I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.” – Jesus, (Rev. 22:16)
Peace
Dear Sonlight,
You’ve got the point there, the ppl were in total darkness that God has willed to send another messenger, Muhammad pbuh to enlighten the world.
Sonlight says:
This sounds to me like an insult to the strength of the Almighty.
God Almighty has no requirement for the entire creations to submit to Him to make Himself Almighty. However God has created the entire world with a purpose. God is here with His Creations, never a moment is God separated or absent from this entire world.
Your belief in Jesus being a Man God is the biggest insult to God, such blindly and ignorantly inferring God to be equal to His own creation (Jesus) whom possessed sheer weaknesses and imperfections.
How can Jesus = God who is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent? Can you quote any example to prove that Jesus is around the entire creations? How can Jesus be 100% man and 100% God? This is utterly nonsense and beyond any logic.
God is the Truth and Light in His entire creations.
See how existence (Essence of God) becomes manifest in non-existence!
How the in-time (phenomenal being) holds firm alongside Him whose attribute is eternal..
I beckon you to learn the Truth from Islam, the ULTIMATE TRUTH.
Peace
To Zaid,
You say ;”In actual fact, the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands……..” -zaid, Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:46 am.
You contradict not only the Bible but the Quran also. I got this point from Answering Islam ;
Quran 21:7 -”Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men … If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7).
(Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
and other verses.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Answer/corrupt.html
The point, as I understand it, is that the authentic Gospel (Injil) and Torah (Taurat) were present
during the time of Muhammad. That is why, according to the Quran, Allah can say :… ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7). Who are those who possess the message DURING THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD that Muhammad can ask?
The MESSAGE was still there at the time of Muhammad.
So your statement :”the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands……..” -zaid, Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:46 am – contradicts the Quran.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/trustworthy1.htm
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
Did I ever deny that there were Torah, Injeel and Zabur vefore Quran? Yes, from time to time Allah sent his messengers, Moses, David, Isa etc… to lead ppl to the Truth & Light. However the Jews always deny the messengers and you’ll know from the history in the bible itself that each of them was pursued, assaulted, insulted and some murdered by them. Jesus too was not spared. However Allah had rescued Jesus from any harm; wasn’t crucified or ressurected.
You quoted yourself, this was what the Jews always do:
(Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
They refused to accept the Truth, corrupted the books and went back to their Idol worshipping. The Torah, Zabur and Injeel all had been distorted, though some words of God may had remained. The true teachings of montheism had totally been distorted.
Why I said Injeel is distorted? Look at the true words of God in the bible:
Thou shalt worship the lord,thy God; And him only shalt thou serve” Mathew 4:10
Did Jesus mentioned here to worship him(Jesus)? No it doesn’t. Jesus command to worship God. If Jesus is God, he should have pointed this verse to himself.
Peace
See how existence (Essence of God) becomes manifest in non-existence!
How the in-time (phenomenal being) holds firm alongside Him whose attribute is eternal..
Bible is distorted!
The Old Testament foretold of the coming of prophet Muhammad. However Christians denied this and distort the verses to make it means something else.
Deuteronomy 18:18 “I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
The prophet will be like Moses. Is Jesus like Moses? NO, Jesus totally differs from Moses in many. (Taking into account Christians believes Jesus is God, so Jesus can’t be that prophet which is like Moses. So Muhammad fits the criteria. Also Muhammad is like Moses in many ways.)
It is mentioned, a prophet among their brethren which simply states he is a NON Jew.(Jews are direct descendant of Isaac, so the brethren refers to descendants of the other brother of Isaac, who is Ishmael. Muhammad is the descendant of Ishmael).
However the Jews distorted the scriptures to make this verse like pointing to Jesus, as they can’t accept a Prophet being a Non Jew.
Muhammad was an illiterate, so Muhammad only speak in God’s command as according to what Arch Angel Gabriel revealed to him (Muhammad pbuh).
Quran was revealed to supersede the previous distorted books including Injeel.
Dear Bros & Sis
JESUS AN UN-WILLING VICTIM
If this was God’s plan for a vicarious atonement to redeem mankind, then obviously He had chosen a wrong substitute. This candidate was most reluctant to die. Arming! Wailingi Sweating! Crying! Complaining!
“And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, LAMA SABACHTHANI, My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Mark 15:33, 34).
DID THE DISCIPLES DIE FOR A LIE?
“And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled” (Mark 14:71).
So much of Christians trying to prove the disciples “matyrdom” in defending their faith; even when Jesus was alive and crucified, they forsook him and fled. Why didn’t the disciples stayed and say ” Master we are much willing to die for you!” if they have strong faith that Jesus is God and their Saviour??
An obvious lie will eventually exposed itself.
Peace
To Zaid
I pointed out:(Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
(Sonlight,Mar 13th, 2010 at 1:18 am)
The words “confirming what IS with them (the Taurat)” indicates the Taurat was accurate at the time of Muhammad. If it were not accurate, the Quran would not refer to it as the Taurat.
Therein lies a problem for Muslims.
If the Taurat and Injil were accurate at the time of Muhammad, WHEN did the Bible message change according to Islam (and HOW)? BIG MYSTERY!!!
Your (and other Muslims) explanation that Paul changed the message of Jesus is full of holes and contradicts the Quran.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/trustworthy1.htm
The writer in the link above says it better.
I do not believe you can give a reasonable response to him. I wish not to say more on this topic because I cannot say it any better than the writer.
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
The followers of Jesus who knew the original teachings of Jesus, awaited the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. They knew the signs given onto the prophet as Moses had foretold in Deutronomy. When they witnessed these signs in Prophet Muhammad, some acknowledged, embraced Islam and followed Muhammad’s teachings. While majority of the true followers of Moses and Jesus who practiced the Torah and Injeel still alive to witness the birth of Muhammad pbuh, vast majority of them had been persecuted and exhiled by the Romans. The original message of Moses and Jesus had already went through vast corruptions and modifications, lived by the mainstream Christians at that time who had been totally brainwashed by Paul, supported by the Roman Constantine for his own political gains.
These true followers knew very well of Jesus message, that a “Comforter” will come after Jesus left, This “Comforter” is not a Spirit as Christians perceived, or even Paul or whosoever. The “Comforter” which Christians denied, is Muhammad pbuh, as your ancient scriptures did translate to that of his name “The Praised One”. This directly referred to Muhammad pbuh being called AL-Amin. The jews knew very well that Muhammad is the Last Messenger as described in their books, but they denied him as Muhammad is a Non Jew.
While you tried to prove the “Truth” of Trinity, you can’t deny that there were Christians sections who are Unitarian and believed Jesus is a lesser being than God. Imagine if Arianism was not exhiled and persecuted by the Trinitarians backed by the Romans, your Christian history may had differ. You can’t deny that during the Nicaea Creed, there were bloodshed and persecutions among Christians themselves. Constantine even sought to kill his own son in the event. Is this a religion of PEACE?
So, Christians themselves had different beliefs about Jesus divinity and his status in the Trinity concept. However so, Unitarian beliefs coincide with Islam that Jesus is a prophet not God.
So there, if Jesus is God, then who is the Prophet that Moses foretold? Then if Jesus is that Prophet, how can Jesus be God? Christians are lost!
Peace
Islam is Truth
Hi Sonlight,
The article you referred is talking about the authenticity of the Bible and Quran. Most of his statements are based on conjectures and his shallow knowledge on Islam. However I’m still wondering, for much of his denial about Quran authenticity, how can he, without questions and further probing believes the bible today is 100% God’s words.
As I’ve mentioned, no one knows who wrote the Gospels. Why wasn’t Jesus teachings consistently passed down from Jesus to his disciples and then to the ppl from time to time. Why was there a lapse between the first written Gospel from the time of Jesus? To say that before Paul, nobody actually knew, acknowledged or worshipped Jesus as God?
Imagine, if you produce an evidence in court without any authentication, autograph or signature it will be thrown out within 2 minutes and considered as void or false. There goes your bible!
Peace
According to….. Zaid
To Zaid
When a Muslim leaves Islam, you (in typical style) say that the reasons given are “based on conjectures and his shallow knowledge on Islam. ” – zaid, Mar 13th, 2010 at 10:16 pm – even if the Muslim was an Imam (or religious teacher) as I pointed out in earlier post.
You cannot accept that ex-Muslims who are knowledgeable about Islam leave Islam. The truth hurts. I do not see any purpose to continue to dwell on this point with you.
I shall answer your Islamic propaganda about Muhammad being the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18 later when I am more free, God – willing.
Peace out.
To Zaid,
Just to give another example of your faulty thinking:-
You say:”While you tried to prove the “Truth” of Trinity, you can’t deny that there were Christians sections who are Unitarian and believed Jesus is a lesser being than God. ” -zaid, Mar 13th, 2010 at 9:39 pm.
Here, you are not really saying anything of value. Just as the are groups considered heretics in Christianity, there are groups considered heretics in Islam. ( Is not there a group within Islam that says there is another message that came after Muhammad {somewhere in Pakistan}; a sect of Ahmmadiyah , I think. You should be more familiar than me, I believe. I remember reading about it)
To Zaid
Today I wish to begin to address the point you mentioned about Muhammad and Moses.
You say:”zaid,Mar 13th, 2010 at 10:20 am -”Bible is distorted!
The Old Testament foretold of the coming of prophet Muhammad. However Christians denied this and distort the verses to make it means something else.
Deuteronomy 18:18 “I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” – Zaid.
Here, you (Zaid) are doing what you accuse Christians of doing. { You say: zaid,Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am “………I always see Christians quoted verses without showing the whole context. Merely quote what they want others to believe as what they believe. eg. …… Before Abraham, I AM (What are the context that lead to these words?) A fact that Christians would like NOT to show.” – Zaid}
Deuteronomy 18:18 is part of a passage.
Beginning from Deuteronomy 17:14 til Deuteronomy 18:22 we see Moses giving instructions regarding kings of Israel, priests, and prophets.
About the KING, -Deuteronomy 17:15 “15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers……” (NIV)
About PRIEST: – Deuteronomy 18:2 They(priest) shall have no inheritance(land) among their brothers; the LORD is their inheritance, as he promised them. (NIV)
About PROPHET: -Deuteronomy 18:15“15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me(Moses) from among your own brothers….” (NIV)
I list some relevent verses below:
Deuteronomy 18:15
Deuteronomy 18:16
Deuteronomy 18:17
Deuteronomy 18:18
If we read the words “among your own brothers..” in Deuteronomy 17:15 and “among their brothers (Deuteronomy 18:2 ) , ” from among your own brothers” in Deuteronomy 18:15 ” from among their brothers” in Deuteronomy 18:18 the words must mean the same thing, i.e, from among the Israelites.
Does one expect to see a king over Israel who is not from Israel? (Deuteronomy 17:15)
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is talking about a line of prophets and not just one prophet. (Moses would eventually die).
Jesus (from Israel) is along this line. In Acts 3:17-23 we read that Jesus is the prophet like Moses. Deuteronomy 18:18 therefore is also a prophecy about Jesus.
Zaid, you (and Islam), I believe, is wrong.
Hi Sonlight,
It said among their brethren (Not ” Among your own brothers” as you translated).
Brethren means the OTHER BROTHER FROM THE SAME PARENT. For this case, it shouldn’t be descendants of Isaac, but from his other brother (Ishmael). So, it doesn’t mean Jewish brother as you deceitfully translated.
This was God’s reply to Abraham’s prayer that ALL his (Abraham) descendants to be made true servants of God. So both Isaac and Ishmael will have prophets as their descendants.
__________________________________________________________
You quote:
Does one expect to see a king over Israel who is not from Israel? (Deuteronomy 17:15)
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is talking about a line of prophets and not just one prophet. (Moses would eventually die).
My reply:
Did Jesus become the King of Israel? NO, he departed even before reaching out to the 12 tribes of Israel.
In contrast, Muhammad leads a nation like Moses, which were Islamic Nations throughout the reign of Muhammad and his Khalifates.
___________________________________________________________
Jesus (from Israel) is along this line. In Acts 3:17-23 we read that Jesus is the prophet like Moses. Deuteronomy 18:18 therefore is also a prophecy about Jesus.
In what way was Jesus like Moses apart from being a Jew?
Moses married, lead the Israelites as a nation, died, pursued by his enemies in spreading the words of God. ALL SIMILAR TO MUHAMMAD.
In contrast, Jesus was accepted by his followers, captured, crucified & resurrected by his enemies(based on your beliefs), didn’t married, didn’t lead a nation in his life, not a prophet but GOD (based on your beliefs).
So how were Moses and Jesus similar?
See how the unauthenticated authors of the Bible twist their words to fill their lustful desires.
Peace
By the way,
Talking about Ahmadiyah. Please read more about their history before you accused Muslim of wrongfully treated them the same way as your trinitarians who persecuted and expelled the Unitarians.
The founder of Ahmadiyyah was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad started somewhere in 1889. He claimed himself as the Last Prophet bearing the name Ahmad, denying Muhammad pbuh. He also claimed he was the Mahdi and Messiah(Jesus). His beliefs that Jesus died a natural death, not ascended to heaven by God is against Muslim beliefs. He also claimed that he was Jesus reborn, besides being the last prophet. He debated with the Christians too regarding his claim to be Jesus reborn.
He used the same Quran that Muslims have and mistraslated the verses and Islamic Syahadah, in his quest to prove that he was the last prophet Muhammad, Mahdi and Messiah (Jesus).
His teachings did not spread beyond his region, as he was accused of working for the British who occupied his nation. He used religion to misguide the ppl to submit to the British, while one of his rules stated in his Ahmadiyyah preaching was that going against the British troops was sinful.
Would you quote this guy as an example to defend your faith?
He’s not just a BLASPHEMY to ISLAM BUT CHRISTIANITY AS WELL.
So the comparisons you’ve posted are irrelevant. You are just being too impulsive!
Peace
CHRISTIANS MISUSED THE WORD GOD.
The word translated as “God” IN Hebrew word is “El” which in addition to it’s use to refer to God Almighty in the Bible is also used to refer to mighty men, to demons, to angels, and to idols. It was a common practice in the Bible to use the word “god” to convey an air of authority or power. Some of the examples presented were:
“I have said, Ye (the Jews) are gods; and all of you are children of the most High”
Psalms 82:6
and “And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh”
Exodus 7:1
as well as “the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.”
So Jesus is NOT ALMighty GOD as Christians wrongfully translated but a god like Moses and even the devil.
In John 20:17 we read:
“Jesus saith unto her, …I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
____________________________________________________________
BIBLE INDICATES THHAT GOD IS NOT HIS CREATIONS
God is not a MAN, that he should lie; neither the SON of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”,
Numbers 23:19
____________________________________________________________
SO GOD PRAY? PRAY TO WHO? ANOTHER GOD??
Mark 14:32 “and he (Jesus) saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.”
Luke 3:21: “Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened.”
Luke 6:12: “And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.”
Luke 22:44 “And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.”
Matthew 26:39: “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”
____________________________________________________________
Jesus should have descended during Adam time to avoid the troubles we faced today. Well, If truly Jesus is GOD.
If Jesus had only arrived as soon as Adam committed his sin and not thousands of generations later then maybe all of these generations could have received true salvation (like this generation).
Did Abraham or any of the other prophets ever preach the “crucifixion”? Did they preach the “Trinity”? I ask for clear and decisive words and not personal forced interpretations of their words or “hidden meanings” for their words. Have any of them ever worshipped a Trinity?
What right did they have to teach them all of these commandments and the observance of the Sabbath and other hardships if all of their works were worthless and belief in Jesus’ sacrifice which would not occur till many thousands of years after their death was the only way to salvation, or as Paul put it :
“a man is not justified by the works of the law … for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified..”
How confused Christians are!!
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Zaid,
You say:” zaid,Mar 15th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Hi Sonlight,
It said among their brethren (Not ” Among your own brothers” as you translated).” – Zaid.
For everyone’s info -
Deuteronomy 18:18“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” – King James Version
Sonlight’s reply – Firstly I did not do the translation (as you said). I was quoting the NIV Bible. You can also check the ESV Bible, or the King James Version (which I believe you are using).
“Brethren means the OTHER BROTHER FROM THE SAME PARENT. For this case, it shouldn’t be descendants of Isaac, but from his other brother (Ishmael). So, it doesn’t mean Jewish brother as you deceitfully translated.” – Zaid
Sonlight says: -Here you are trying to force the Bible to say something it does not say. Your statement produces a problem. Your statement “among their brethren” is also found in Deuteronomy 17:15“….. one from among thy BRETHREN shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.”- King James Version. (CAPITALS are mine)
So, even in the KJV Bible, God has passed down instructions “among thy BRETHREN shalt thou set king over thee” (i.e. a king of Israel must be from the BRETHREN {brother}- people of Israel. This is in line with our common sense.) Even if everyone accepts that Arabs are cousins of the Jew; as far as I know, until the time of Jesus, the Jews did not have a king which they themselves chose who was not from Israel.
Also you say: “Brethren means the OTHER BROTHER FROM THE SAME PARENT”. If I were to use your definition; Deuteronomy 17:15 becomes ‘…. one from among thy( OTHER BROTHER FROM THE SAME PARENT) shalt thou set king over thee’. This means that an Arab is be King of Israel always???. (An example of Islamic logic!)
“Brethren” here refers to the men of Israel. They are brothers because Israel (the man) was their common father/ ancestor. (The Arabs do not have Israel as a common father/ancestor and so are not brothers of Israelites. Arabs and Jews are cousins because they are commonly descended from Abraham.)
You are in error.
To Zaid
You quote me saying: “Does one expect to see a king over Israel who is not from Israel? (Deuteronomy 17:15). Deuteronomy 18:5-18 is talking about a line of prophets and not just one prophet. (Moses would eventually die).
(Zaid) reply:
Did Jesus become the King of Israel? NO, he departed even before reaching out to the 12 tribes of Israel.
In contrast, Muhammad leads a nation like Moses, which were Islamic Nations throughout the reign of Muhammad and his Khalifates.
___________________________________
Sonlight says: I mentioned that the king of Israel must be from the BRETHREN {brother}- i.e people of Israel. But you are trying to lead me to another topic.
You are saying that Muhammad is like Moses because they seem to have certain things in common and Jesus did not.
I have heard this line of reasoning before.
One response I remember reading about was to play the same game that Muslim polemicist play, i.e. to look for similarities between Moses and Jesus.
In what way was MUHAMMAD and Moses the same.
“Moses married, lead the Israelites as a nation, died, pursued by his enemies in spreading the words of God. ALL SIMILAR TO MUHAMMAD.” – zaid.
I also remember reading that both Muhammad and Moses had descendents.
In what way was JESUS and Moses the same? (The reason why I believe Jesus is the prophet of Deut. 18:18 I mentioned earlier. I am now just showing the weakness of Muslim polemicist propaganda by playing the same game. I am just showing similarities.)
1) Moses and Jesus are descended from Israel. Muhammad is not.
2) Moses was in Egypt. Jesus was in Egypt.(Matthew 2:14-15) see also Hosea 11:1.
Moses came out of Egypt. Jesus came out of Egypt.
3) About the time Moses was born, the ruler of Egypt ordered all male Hebrew babies be killed. (Exodus 1:22).About the time Jesus was born, the ruler of Jerusalem, King Herod, ordered all male Hebrew babies in Bethleham be killed (Matthew 2:16-18)
4) God the Father spoke in the presence of Jesus. (Matthew 3:16,17). Moses heard the voice of God. (Exodus 3:4) . Muhammad never heard the voice of God. He supposedly only heard the voice of an angel(which nobody else heard or saw)
5) Moses face became radiant (Exodus 34:29,30). Jesus’ face shone like the sun (Matthew 17:1,2)
6) Moses (or rather God) produced food in the desert. Jesus fed five thousand persons by a miracle. (Matthew 15:21)
Moses (or rather God) split the Red Sea into two by a miracle. Jesus could control the wind and the waves of the sea. (Mark 4:35-41).
Moses and Jesus could do similar miracles.
7) Moses and Jesus also died (as Christians believe).(applies to Muhammad also) . But Jesus rose from the dead.
Pharoah opposed Moses. Jesus came into contact with persons who were against Him. (applies to Muhammad also)
An interesting note: (Matthew 17:3) Jesus spoke with Moses.
The above sample is in contrast to Muhammad.
1) Muhammad is not from Israel.2) Muhammad was not in Egypt.(as far as I know). 3) Did babies die when Muhammad was born?
4)Jesus and Moses were able to produced similar miracles. (Not all Muslims agree with the stories of the miracles of Muhammad since they are found in the Hadith. Muslims differ on the collections of Hadith. Other Muslims reject the Hadith completely.) Christians agree about the miracles of Jesus and Moses (and talk about them without any doubt at all.)
5) Moses and Jesus heard the voice of God. Moses became aware that the voice was that of God almost immediately. (Exodus 3:4,5)
{I heard that Muhammad, in the beginning,did not believe that the voice he heard (supposedly) was that of an angel and had to be convinced by someone else. This is in contrast with Moses.}
Do you see the differences between Moses and Muhammad? Muhammad can also be seen to be not like Moses. Muhammad is not the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18 . Jesus is.
Peace… out
To All
Sorry for the typo -
Jesus feeds 5000 – Matthew 14:13-21
Moses and Jesus heard the voice of God. Moses became aware that the voice was that of God almost immediately. (Exodus 3:4-6)
Hi Sonlight,
After ALL your explanations, can you tell me exactly is Jesus a prophet or God? If your above points about Jesus similarities with Moses are valid, then Jesus is none other but a prophet like Moses. If that’s the case, then you contradict your beliefs that Jesus is God. Did Jesus hear God’s voice? Who was talking to Jesus? God Jesus?? Isn’t Jesus God himself? Did Jesus became King of Israel during his life? Answer is NO.
You simply can’t prove that Jesus is the prophet foretold by Moses AND ALSO GOD at the same time. Trinity belief was invented by Paul, since nowhere from the history of other prophets that Trinity beliefs ever had been preached.
Peace
Hi SOnlight,
Through my various readings, Jesus wasn’t born in Bethelham and not during the reign of King Herod who conquered Jerusalem. It was proven by Israel archeologists that no evidence was found regarding birth of Jesus in Bethelham and during the life of the mad King Herod who allegedly commanded all babies to be killed.
According to the New Testament account of the apostle Matthew, Joseph and Mary were living in Bethlehem in the southern region of Judea at the time of Jesus’ birth and later moved to Nazareth in the northern Galilee region. In Luke’s account, Joseph and a very pregnant Mary traveled more than 90 miles from their residence in Nazareth to Joseph’s Judean hometown of Bethlehem to be counted in a Roman census.
Quoted by an Israel Archeologist Aviram Oshri in his report:
While Luke and Matthew describe Bethlehem in Judea as the birthplace of Jesus, “Menorah,” the vast database of the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), describes Bethlehem as an “ancient site” with Iron Age material and the fourth-century Church of the Nativity and associated Byzantine and medieval buildings.
But there is a complete absence of information for antiquities from the Herodian period–that is, from the time around the birth of Jesus. Many Christians accept the story of Jesus’ birth in a manger in Bethlehem in Judea. But what if there was no Bethlehem in Judea at the time of Jesus’ birth?
In the early 1990s, as an archaeologist working for the IAA, I was contracted to perform some salvage excavations around building and infrastructure projects in a small rural community in the Galilee. When I started work, some of the people who lived around the site told me how Jesus was really born there, not in the south. Intrigued, I researched the archaeological evidence for Bethlehem in Judea at the time of Jesus and found nothing. This was very surprising, as Herodian remains should be the first thing one should find. What was even more surprising is what archaeologists had already uncovered and what I was to discover over the next 11 years of excavation at the small rural site–Bethlehem of Galilee.
Aviram Oshri is a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority.
Hmm…Another fabrications by Gospel writers to fulfil the prophecies on Jesus?
Peace
Hi Sonlight,
Archeological findings proved Jesus wasn’t born in Bethelhem despite Bible authors attempts to fulfill prophecies on Jesus as the Messiah from Bethelhem.
According to National Geographic:
“Many archaeologists and theological scholars believe Jesus was actually born in either Nazareth or Bethlehem of Galilee, a town just outside Nazareth, citing biblical references and archaeological evidence to support their conclusion. Throughout the Bible, Jesus is referred to as ‘Jesus of Nazareth,’ not ‘Jesus of Bethlehem.’ In fact, in John (7:41- 43) there is a passage questioning Jesus’ legitimacy because he’s from Galilee and not Judaea, as the Hebrew Scriptures say the Messiah must be.”
“Archaeological excavations have shown that Bethlehem in Judaea likely did not exist as a functioning town between 7 and 4 B.C., when Jesus is believed to have been born. Studies of the town have turned up a great deal of Iron Age material from 1200 to 550 B.C. as well as material from the sixth century A.D., but nothing from the first century B.C. or the first century A.D.
Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israeli Antiquities Authority, says, ‘There is surprisingly no archaeological evidence that ties Bethlehem in Judea to the period in which Jesus would have been born’.'If the historical Jesus were truly born in Bethlehem,’ Oshri adds, ‘it was most likely the Bethlehem of Galilee, not that in Judaea. ”
Peace
John & Mark contradict Matthew saying Jesus wasn’t born in Bethelhem
Jesus wasn’t born in Bethelhem.
John & Mark contradict Matthew which both said Jesus was born in Nazareth.
John 7:41-43 (New International Version)
41Others said, “He is the Christ.”
Still others asked, “How can the Christ come from Galilee? 42Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David’s family[a] and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?” 43Thus the people were divided because of Jesus.
Mark 6:1-13
The Rejection of Jesus at Nazareth
6He left that place and came to his home town, and his disciples followed him. 2On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, ‘Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands! 3Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary* and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?’ And they took offence at him.
So if Jesus wasn’t born in Bethelhem, he did not fulfilled the prophecies that was said unto him.
Peace
Hi Sonlight,
Clarifications on my above posts. My main point from the above posts is Jesus was born from Bethelhem Galilee Not Bethelhem Judae as Christians believed the Messiah should have come from.
Peace
To Zaid
You earlier tried to show that Muhammad was the prophet like Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18. My reply (Sonlight, Mar 16th, 2010 at 5:11 am) shows the weakness of the Islamic position.
I have not finished replying to your earlier post. You seem now to be changing the subject by talking about archaeology. Why? Do you sense the weakness of Islamic thinking on this earlier topic? (Even your new approach is flawed. I shall address that later, if the Lord allows.)
I wish to continue with my reply.
“BIBLE INDICATES THHAT GOD IS NOT HIS CREATIONS
God is not a MAN, that he should lie; neither the SON of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”,Numbers 23:19
-zaid, Mar 15th, 2010 at 1:19 pm”
Here again is another example of Muslims trying to make the Bible say what it does not say.
Here, Zaid , I feel in your attempt to show that Jesus is not God, you have missed the point of the verse you quoted (NUMBERS 23:19). You are using the verse to show that God is not a PHYSICAL MAN ( and Jesus was a physical man). But that is not what the verse in NUMBERS is talking about.
My understanding of this verse is that God (is not talking about whether he is a physical man or not but rather) is talking about His INTEGRITY. “God is not a man, THAT HE SHOULD LIE.” and I am sure you will agree with me that there are men who are liars. Also “..has he spoken, and will he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19) which is also about his integrity.
This verse in Numbers is an example of the distinction (difference) between God and man. Here I am talking about the perfect character of God and and the flawed character of man (and not about God as spirit and man as a physical being.)
If we see the verse in NUMBERS in this way, than the verse in NUMBERS is an indication that JESUS IS GOD because Jesus did not lie, and made good whatever he spoke. Jesus is not just a prophet because, among men, only Jesus never sinned or make an error. (Even Prophet Moses and Saint Peter made errors.)
It is amazing that the verse (Numbers) you, used to try to prove that Jesus is not God actually is a sign that He is God.
Also you say : “CHRISTIANS MISUSED THE WORD GOD.” -zaid,Mar 15th, 2010 at 1:19 pm”
Actually from what you, Zaid, have written about NUMBERS 23:19 and Deuteronomy 18:18 it is you (and other Muslim propagandist) who misused the Word of God (or are in error by interpreting it wrongly).
Peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
You mentioned Jesus is a sign of God. I have explained to you how God manifest in His Creations. So signs of God is everywhere within His Creations, not just Jesus. You simply don;t understand God, hence trying to picture God as a Man or whatsoever. You are definitely LOST when trying to prove your God’s existence. I’ve pointed several things about your flawed beliefs but you choose to ignore.
Let me reiterate my points from my previous posts:-
!) If Jesus had immediately descended after Adam sinned, all the generations would have received salvation like the generations after Jesus .Why Jesus came after few thousand years later??
2) What right did the prophets have to teach ppl all of the commandments and the observance of the Sabbath and other hardships if all of their works were worthless and belief in Jesus’ sacrifice which would not occur till many thousands of years after their death was the only way to salvation.
3) If Jesus was God being omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, where is Jesus now?
4) If Jesus was the prophet foretold by Moses, which is like Moses, how could Jesus be a prophet and God at the same time. Moses nor God himself did not foretold that God will be born among their brethren. It was mentioned a prophet.
5) The coming Messiah will be the King of Israel but Jesus never did become King of Israel nor ruled any nation.
6) When was Jesus born? Matthew says he was born when Herod was King of Judea. Luke says he was born when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. He could not have been born during the administration of these tow rulers for Herod died in the year 4 B.C., and Cyrenius, who, in Roman history is Quirinius, did not become Governor of Syria until ten years later. Herod and Quirinius are separated by the whole reign of Archelaus, Herod’s son. Between Matthew and Luke, there is, therefore, a contradiction of at least ten years, as to the time of Christ’s birth.
7) Where was Christ born? According to the Gospels, he was called “Jesus of Nazareth.” Matthew declares that he was born in Bethlehem in fulfillment of a prophecy in the Book of Micah. But the prophecy of Micah has nothing whatever to do with Jesus; it prophesies the coming of a military leader, not a divine teacher.
Furthermore in the Roman custom, when an enrollment was made, was that every man was to report at his place of residence. The head of the family alone made report. In no case was his wife, or any dependent, required to be with him.
Imagine Mary had to travel about 90 miles which may take about 1 week journey to reach Judae? What was the means of transportation at that time besides by foot or riding an animal. Can any woman on the eve of giving birth withstand this. It wasn’t necessary for Mary to go, and Joseph wouldn’t have insist on it looking at Mary’s condition.However, the Messiah had to be born in Bethlehem, the city of David; and by what we call a roundabout way, his birth was made to take place there.
9) Philo, one of the most renowned writers the Jewish race has produced, was born before the beginning of the Christian Era, and lived for many years after the time at which Jesus is supposed to have died. His home was in or near Jerusalem, where Jesus lived. Yet this philosopher, who must have been familiar with Herod’s massacre of the innocents, and with the preaching, miracles and death of Jesus, had these things occurred; who wrote an account of the Jews, covering this period never once mentioned the name of, or any deed connected with, the reputed Savior of the world.
Strange indeed!
10) Never did any of the prophets before Jesus ever mentioned about Trinity or preach about crucifixion of Jesus to atone for our sins. Not even any history of the prophets that ever they had worshipped Trinity or regarded Jesus as God born as a Man.
There’s lots more that can be raised about the authenticity or legitimacy of the Bible or Truth about Trinity. But Christians don’t seem to listen, yet even to scrutinize them.
Peace
To Zaid
You say:”zaid, Mar 16th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Hi Sonlight,
After ALL your explanations, can you tell me exactly is Jesus a prophet or God? If your above points about Jesus similarities with Moses are valid, then Jesus is none other but a prophet like Moses…” – Zaid
Sonlight says: A ‘Prophet’ is ‘someone who speaks by divine inspiration’ – according to the dictionary I am using. So a prophet speaks not his own message but God’s. (But Jesus is God, so every word Jesus spoke is God’s word. So Jesus,(the man), is a prophet in one sense as I see it)
Jesus is God appearing as a man. Jesus (the man) was called a prophet by those who saw the amazing things he did e.g. John 4:19 (before people realized he is God) and is also referred to as a prophet by the disciples even after they came to know that he is God ( Acts 3:17-26).
God chose to appear as a man named Jesus. But Jesus also appeared as a prophet. God can appear as a prophet if he so wishes. So Jesus is both God and prophet.
You as a Muslim seem to suggest there is a problem here where there is no problem. It is just your bias.
FYI. Jesus is also called a priest (Hebrews 4:14,15). Rabbi/teacher (John 3:1,2)
To Zaid,
You say: “zaid, Mar 17th, 2010 at 1:20 am
……….”1) If Jesus had immediately descended after Adam sinned, all the generations would have received salvation like the generations after Jesus .Why Jesus came after few thousand years later?
2) What right did the prophets have to teach ppl all of the commandments and the observance of the Sabbath and other hardships if all of their works were worthless and belief in Jesus’ sacrifice which would not occur till many thousands of years after their death was the only way to salvation. – Zaid
Sonlight says : Your above statements shows a lack of knowledge of Christian beliefs.
Ask I understand it, after Adam disobeyed God and damaged the relationship between God and mankind, God began His plan to restore this relationship. God’s plan was to have Jesus pay the penalty for the sins of mankind by dying on the Cross. The efficacy (effective-ness) of Jesus death on the cross for washing away the sins of man was such that its effect was upon past, present and future sins of mankind. (It is as if Jesus were sacrificed before the creation of the world – 1 Peter 1:18-20 -18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, ……NIV)
The “commandments and the observance of the Sabbath …” in the past, in themselves, did not have any power to save anyone. But because of the obedience to God by His followers in the past, the followers of God in the past also benefited from the Sacrifice of Christ.
If ” the commandments and the observance of the Sabbath and other hardships …”(Zaid’s term) had any power in themselves to save, Jesus need not have died on the cross; there would be no Christianity.
So, without Christ’s Sacrifice, the works of the past, the observance of “commandments and the observance of the Sabbath” are worthless.
peace…. out
To Zaid,
You say: ” The coming Messiah will be the King of Israel but Jesus never did become King of Israel nor ruled any nation. – zaid, Mar 17th, 2010 at 1:20 am.
I do not know where you are going with this line of thinking.
{DEFINITION: Messiah is a Hebrew word which means ‘Anointed One’. The Greek version of the word is ‘Christ’. Please WIKI}
Are you saying that Jesus is not the Messiah?
Christians consider Jesus the Messiah. I thought Muslims refer to Jesus as the Messiah also.
Quran 003.045
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
SHAKIR: When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the ‘. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
I think you contradict the Quran.
I feel your Islamic logic is confused.
Peace… out
To Zaid,
A question for you.
Why do you (and other Muslim propagandist) refer to Deuteronomy 18:18 and say that it refers to Muhammad? Are you trying to prove that Muhammad’s coming is predicted in the Bible (as a true prophet).
I feel there is a need to do this in Islam because there seems to be a belief in Islam that Muhammad is mentioned in the earlier Scriptures.
I refer you to an earlier post: “Daniel, Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:12 am
……According to Holy Qur’an the name of prophet Muhammad or Ahmad (p.b.u.h) is mention by name in the Gospel (Injeel):
“And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One).” (Qur’an 61:6)
If you refer to Song of Solomon in Hebrew scripture, the name ‘Muhammad’ also mention there, please read Song of Solomon 5:16 it looks like this:
“Hikow mamtaqiym wkulow MAHAMADiym zeh dowdiy wzeh ree`iy bnowt yruushaalaaim.” – Daniel on the blog site – ‘Why I am following Jesus.’
Sonlight says: So there seems to be a belief in Islam that Muhammad was foretold in the earlier Scripture i.e. Bible. As I see it, this results in Muslims trying to make Muhammad appear in the Bible (as the Deuteronomy 18:18 example so clearly shows).
But this false idea is easily refuted (as the Deuteronomy 18:18 example so clearly shows. Please refer to the post – Sonlight, Mar 16th, 2010 at 5:11 am).
But there arises a problem.
Muslims may then say that Christians have remove all traces of Muhammad’s name from the Bible (OR corrupted the Bible OR the ORIGINAL BIBLE is lost and what is present today is a fake OR other theories…). But if Muslims believe as that I have just stated than this belief that Muhammad appears in the Bible becomes unprovable. It is just blind faith (similar to other Islamic beliefs.)
Peace….. out.
Hi Sonlight
You say: ” The coming Messiah will be the King of Israel but Jesus never did become King of Israel nor ruled any nation. – zaid, Mar 17th, 2010 at 1:20 am.
I do not know where you are going with this line of thinking.
{DEFINITION: Messiah is a Hebrew word which means ‘Anointed One’. The Greek version of the word is ‘Christ’. Please WIKI}
Are you saying that Jesus is not the Messiah?
My reply:
I am comparing Moses and Jesus. Moses lead the Israel as a nation, but Jesus never ruled Israel as a nation far from being their King. Nothing I’ve said contradicts the Quran. I am not denying Jesus as the Messiah. Its only you twisting my words.
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..refer to Deuteronomy 18:18 and say that it refers to Muhammad? Are you trying to prove that Muhammad’s coming is predicted in the Bible (as a true prophet).
I feel there is a need to do this in Islam because there seems to be a belief in Islam that Muhammad is mentioned in the earlier Scriptures.
My Reply:
Bible Authors tried to hide the truth but in vain.
In Greek it mentioned Parakletos or Advocates, Bible translate them to Comforter.
John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another (Parakletos)Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever”
John 14:26 “But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John stated God will send ANOTHER comforter who will teach all things. But John tried to twist the truth by suggesting the Comforter was the Holy Ghost. If that is so, was he saying there was ANOTHER Holy Ghost. How many Holy Ghosts were there besides one who already appeared in Jesus time?
By the way in Greek, it mentioned Spirit not Ghost. In Greek language spirit refers to an Inspired Human or prophet. The word “Holy” was added to the translation to make it sound like “Holy Spirit” which Christians interpreted as “Holy Ghost”. It can’t be the Holy Ghost as it has appeared during Jesus, so there’s another that is yet to come, which should be in a form of Inspired Human, another Advocates.
John 16:7-14 “.. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.”
From what I understand, Holy Ghost only inspires, but the above verse it mentioned, he shall HEAR, SPEAK and GUIDE you to the truth. This verse states that the next Comforter shall be a human or prophet, not HOLY GHOST!
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Spirit in Greek refers to Human not Ghost.
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,” (1 John 4:1-3)
Above verse showed that spirits is much referred to human, not a “Ghost” or like Christians translate it as “Holy” Spirit.
To be continued, Insya Allah
Peace
Hi Sonlight,
Sonlight says: A ‘Prophet’ is ’someone who speaks by divine inspiration’ – according to the dictionary I am using. So a prophet speaks not his own message but God’s. (But Jesus is God, so every word Jesus spoke is God’s word. So Jesus,(the man), is a prophet in one sense as I see it)
My reply:
Since Jesus is God, why did he need to be inspired? He should rather have said his own words or rather God’s words. You tried to make believe here, but its totally out of logic. Jesus is God, at the same time you referred his as a Prophet who speaks by Divine inspirations, speak not of his own message but God’s.
Doing a simple analysis here, Jesus is God. So God is the source of inspiration, However Jesus is also prophet, so he receives the inspiration from God to speak God’s words. So God inspires Jesus a prophet, but Jesus is also God who inspires the inspired, what logic are you talking here? You tried to convince yourself with this faulty logic and concluded, God can do anything even it is proven nonsensical.
Peace
Sonlight says:
This verse in Numbers is an example of the distinction (difference) between God and man. Here I am talking about the perfect character of God and and the flawed character of man (and not about God as spirit and man as a physical being.)
If we see the verse in NUMBERS in this way, than the verse in NUMBERS is an indication that JESUS IS GOD because Jesus did not lie, and made good whatever he spoke. Jesus is not just a prophet because, among men, only Jesus never sinned or make an error. (Even Prophet Moses and Saint Peter made errors.)
It is amazing that the verse (Numbers) you, used to try to prove that Jesus is not God actually is a sign that He is God.
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My comments
Sonlight,
Your knowledge about God is limited. You wind yourself in your imaginations and conjectures even though what you may have read in the Bible is out of common sense, but you tried to make it appears true.
You define perfection based on one’s physical being and character. You point all the good attributes to Jesus and say, “This is Jesus God with a perfect character. See how man flawed. See how God is flawless!” Your knowledge on God is shallow and you applied too much of your imagination to define God.
Never sinned, never make error, never lie equals to God?? I shall say Jesus is Godly but not God. Do you ever wonder, before there was any Creation, what do you call God?
Islam teaches: Before any creation, He is the Zat (Essence) that is without name who is beyond any comprehension, knowledge or description. Nothing is associated to Him and there’s only Him, The Essence that is only known to Himself. When He created the entire universe which forms Life, He decrees what is Good and Evil, which none of these 2 affects His Existence and Al-Mighty-ness in one way or another. He inputs the knowledge of Good and Bad into Adam and taught Adam all things and names, such Adam and the entire mankind will be a “Perfect” mirror or “Images” of Himself, the God.
Good and evil are only known by their definitions, through what comes into our common senses and consensus. Who define this if not God? Just think, how man is able to differentiate good and bad? What if God decrees that bad becomes good and vice versa and had these “programmed” into our common senses. We could have had another different type of life and values. So “Perfection” as you can define is what crossed into our common senses. It is only “Imaginary” which we are destined to live according to that default value determined by God.
Goodness and perfection can be attributed to God. Being good, never lie, never sinned can be referred as Godly but not God. Because GOD is Essence. Essence that flows in every Life, because Life itself is God. In the absence of God, there will be no Life. Without His Light, none can reach God. When one is veiled from God, he failed to witness the Truth, Even how Life was veiled from Him, He is never separated and never absent from his entire Creations. He is Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent and all these signs dwell among us, within us and bonded us to Him like the Sun and its Rays. When the rays touches the mirror (heart), we will witness our “Self” blends with the “Truth”, as like Jesus, the prophets and the saints and whoever purify his heart with God’s consent.
However so, not all Mirrors (heart) is able to witness or reaches Him as the heart is veiled due to uncleanliness of its surface stained by one’s lustful and wordly desires. If only the mirror (heart) is polished and cleansed constant and consistently, the veil will be unconvered, as like the stain on the mirror surfaced removed. Such allows the Light rays to shine upon the cleaned surface of the mirror. When such happens, the Light will reach the heart and generates a reflection for one to witness the Truth within his inner “SELF”.
In Islam we worship and we learn the way to reach God in this very Life. We do not wait for God to reappear (like Jesus 2nd appearance to this world). SUch because God has never departed, separated, isolated or absent from His entire creations. It is our filthy heart that veils us from Him. This is not Islamic propaganda, but the true path towards God. I welcome you to seek the Islamic spiritual journey, which I have experienced and many other Muslims have did.
ISlam is Truth
Peace
Salam.
Dear Zaid, Daniel, Tony and Eric, can you email me at islamsyukri@yahoo.com. Thank you.
Syukri
To Zaid
You say:
“Spirit in Greek refers to Human not Ghost.
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,” (1 John 4:1-3)
Above verse showed that spirits is much referred to human, not a “Ghost” or like Christians translate it as “Holy” Spirit. – zaid , Mar 18th, 2010 at 9:05 pm.
Sonlight’s comment: Again, example of Muslims twisting words of the Bible.
You , Zaid, are trying to make it appear that the word “Spirit” here refers to a man and not to an immaterial being (like a ghost)
The word ” spirit” as defined by my OXFORD dictionary is 1) a supernatural being or 2) the part of a person that survives physical death i.e the soul. So the word “spirit”, as I understand it, can refer to humans (or at least the human soul), or angels (holy or fallen angels i.e. demons).
However the word as it is used here, as I understand it, refers rather to the ‘spirit’ that inspires the prophet to speak. (It refers to the spirit that moves the prophet rather than the prophet himself)
Is the spirit from God (therefore a true prophet speaks) or is the spirit not from God (therefore that is a false prophet speaking).
You are wrong to restrict the word “spirit” here as referring to humans only.
As I see it, the word ‘spirit’ can include the prophet speaking but it must refer to his spirit/soul, in this case. But to do that, the word ‘spirit’ than takes on a wider reference i.e. other spirits ( to include a wider group of beings including angels). If that is so, than you cannot restrict the word ‘spirit’ to refer to man only.
Also, the verse says “, believe not every SPIRIT…….,” (1 John 4:1-3). It does not say ‘believe not every MAN’.
Your explanation, therefore, that the ‘spirit’ who is to come, after the Messiah, is actually a man (i.e. the Comforter is a man rather than a spirit/ghost) is flawed.
P.S – You (Zaid) say” “Spirit in Greek refers to Human not Ghost “ .
I wish to ask, – When did you get your degree in the study of the Greek language?
Peace…. out.
Hi Sonlight,
You are being selective in your response. Please comment or response to my post as a whole.
I am not a master in Greek, and I don’t believe that you are too. However, you admitted that spirit CAN BE human or ghost. However, I am anticipating your comments on who is the “ANOTHER COMFORTER” which John mentioned.
My Questions:
1) Based on John writings, Who is THIS ANOTHER COMFORTER, PARAKLETOS OR ADVOCATE? Was there ANOTHER HOLY GHOST??
2) When Jesus mentioned ANOTHER, Jesus was referring to himself as the first Parakletos. Then Jesus was saying ANOTHER Parakletos was to come only after Jesus departed. It is obvious that Jesus was referring to someone who was similar to Jesus, A PERSON! (John tried to divert the true meaning of the verse by suggesting it was the Holy Ghost!)
3) If you insist it was ANOTHER Holy Ghost, how many Holy Ghosts were there since the Holy Ghost had already came during Jesus, not AFTER Jesus.
Please answer!
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John 16:7-14
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7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
My Questions:
1) It mentioned He Hears, Speak and Guide on God’s authority on the things that are to come. Does Holy Ghost hear, speak, and guide the ppl?
2) When, How and Who did the Holy Ghost hear, speak and guide? Isn’t it obvious that it should be a MAN who HEARS, SPEAKS and guides the ppl not a Ghost?
3) Why wasn’t Jesus, the Man who’d guided the ppl to all Truth? Why wait for ANOTHER SPIRIT? Isn’t Jesus NOT capable enough compared to the Holy SPIRIT to guide the ppl to the Truth?
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…….You cannot restrict the word ‘spirit’ to refer to man only.
Also, the verse says “, believe not every SPIRIT…….,” (1 John 4:1-3). It does not say ‘believe not every MAN’.
My Question:
1) So you are suggesting that the verse should mean “believe not EVERY HOLY GHOSTS?” rather than “Believe Not every Man/Human/Person?” It doesn’y make sense!
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Your explanation, therefore, that the ‘spirit’ who is to come, after the Messiah, is actually a man (i.e. the Comforter is a man rather than a spirit/ghost) is flawed.
P.S – You (Zaid) say” “Spirit in Greek refers to Human not Ghost “ .
I wish to ask, – When did you get your degree in the study of the Greek language
My Question:
1) Indeed in Greek, Spirit was also possible to refer to human. Please explain how you proved that “The Comforter is a man rather than spirit/ghost” is flawed?
Awaiting your response.
Peace
Islam is truth
To Zaid,
I said: “…….You cannot restrict the word ‘spirit’ to refer to man only.
Also, the verse says “, believe not every SPIRIT…….,” (1 John 4:1-3). It does not say ‘believe not every MAN’.
(Zaid’s) Question:
“1) So you are suggesting that the verse should mean “believe not EVERY HOLY GHOSTS?” rather than “Believe Not every Man/Human/Person?” It doesn’y make sense!” – zaid, Mar 21st, 2010 at 10:23 pm.
Sonlight’s reply: What kind of nonsensical response are you giving?
“, believe not every SPIRIT…….,” (1 John 4:1-3). refers to SPIRITs (i.e. angels/ demons/ spirit) I will accept that it includes man because man has a spirit/soul in him.
But you want to restrict the term ‘SPIRIT’ here to refer to ‘MAN’ only, because it fits your Islamic propaganda better.
Please accept what words in the Bible say and mean (e.g. The word SPIRIT refers to IMMATERIAL beings) and believe not what Islamic Propaganda says the Bible says. (You need to do this otherwise a dialogue becomes IMPOSSIBLE. – e.g. The Bible says WHITE but Islamic Propaganda says the word WHITE means BLACK. –
But I think Muslims are in a dilemma. Can you accept that well known Muslim propagandist have made errors. The points that you Zaid have brought up, I believe, are from well known Muslim propagandist like Deedat. What if it can be shown that Deedat made one mistake;… or two; …or one thousand…… I do not think that you need me to tell you the implication.
I am not surprised that you will try to defend points of Islamic Propaganda. (You must not admit – horrors- that even a single one is wrong).
Also.
you say : zaid, Mar 21st, 2010 at 10:23 pm, Hi Sonlight,
You are being selective in your response….”
Sonlights reply: My reply about Deuteronomy 18:18 . ( Sonlight, Mar 16th, 2010 at 5:11 am) -
shows that Muslim propagandist (like you) are selective; picking verses/points (e.g. Muhammad and Moses were earthly kings in one sense but Jesus was not) and ignoring those that do not support Islamic propaganda.
FYI – The points in Deuteronomy 18:18 issue. – Sonlight, Mar 16th, 2010 at 5:11 am- I have chosen to highlight because I thought ( when I first read the article) that it was the easiest to understand and to use to spot the tricks of the Islamic propagandist.
The issue about ‘ANOTHER COMFORTER, PARAKLETOS OR ADVOCATE?’ seems more ‘technical’. It is (to me ), in comparison to the Deuteronomy 18:18 question, harder to understand, explain, and therefore more time-consuming to refute. But I shall address the issue, God – willing
Peace… out.
To Zaid
You say: zaid, Mar 21st, 2010 at 10:23 pm, – …….(Zaid) Questions:
1) Based on John writings, Who is THIS ANOTHER COMFORTER, PARAKLETOS OR ADVOCATE? Was there ANOTHER HOLY GHOST??
2) When Jesus mentioned ANOTHER, Jesus was referring to himself as the first Parakletos. Then Jesus was saying ANOTHER Parakletos was to come only after Jesus departed. It is obvious that Jesus was referring to someone who was similar to Jesus, A PERSON! (John tried to divert the true meaning of the verse by suggesting it was the Holy Ghost!).
3) If you insist it was ANOTHER Holy Ghost, how many Holy Ghosts were there since the Holy Ghost had already came during Jesus, not AFTER Jesus.
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Sonlights reply: I wish to begin this reply by first highlighting typical Islamic thinking I come across and that you have displayed again.
You (Zaid) say: “It is obvious that Jesus was referring to someone who was similar to Jesus, A PERSON! “. – Zaid
I believe what you mean is a HUMAN ( because Christians consider angels, demons and God the Holy Spirit as persons).
Here, you are showing how SELECTIVE you are in your thinking.
To answer this question, I need just to do what I did in the Deut. 18:18 issue.
Jesus , Christians believe, is God the Son, (i.e Divine). The Holy Spirit, who is to be present in the disciples after Jesus’ resurrection, is also Divine, so they are similar.
Your point about one similar to Jesus (in the sense that they were both humans) to come after Jesus, scores no points. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are similar because they are both divine.
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Also,
about the Holy Spirit, it is written :John 14:16,17 (ESV) – 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.” (ESV)
(The word rendered as COMFORTER is also translated as , HELPER in other translations)
Some points from Answering Islam. ( I cannot say it better.) -
i) “He will give YOU another Comforter”.
Jesus promised his disciples that God would send the Comforter to them. He would send the Spirit of Truth to Peter, and to John, and to the rest of the disciples – not to Meccans. Medinans or Arabians.
ii). “He will give you ANOTHER Comforter”.
If, as Muslims allege, the original word was periklutos and that Christians changed it into paracletos, then the sentence would have read, “He will give you another praised one”. This statement is both out of place in its context and devoid of support elsewhere in the Bible. Jesus is never called the “periklutos” in the Bible (the word appears nowhere in the Bible) so it is grossly unlikely that he would have said “He will give you another praised one” when he never used that title for himself. Worse still, as the Muslims allege that he actually foretold the coming of Muhammad by mentioning his name, the sentence in that case would have read “He will give you another Muhammad”. The further the Muslims try to press the point, the more absurd it tends to become…..
iii) “To be with you FOREVER”.
When Muhammad came he did not stay with his people forever but died in 632 AD and his tomb is in Medina where his body has lain for over 1300 years. Nevertheless Jesus said that the Comforter, once he had come, would never leave his disciples, but would be with them forever.
iv). “You KNOW him”.
It is quite obvious from this statement that the disciples knew the Spirit of Truth. As Muhammad was only born more than five hundred years later, it certainly could not be him. The next clause brings out just how the disciples knew him. At this stage we can see quite clearly that the Comforter is a spirit who was in the disciples’ presence already.
v). “He dwells WITH you”.
Where did the Comforter dwell with them? From various verses, especially John 1.32, we can see that the Spirit was in Jesus himself and so was with the disciples.
vi). “He will be IN you”.
Here the death-blow is dealt to the theory that Muhammad is the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth. As the Spirit was in Jesus, so he would be in the disciples as well. The Greek word here is “en” and this means “right inside”. So Jesus was in fact saying “he will be right inside you”.
vii). The last reason is really a re-emphasis of the first one. Do you notice how often Jesus addresses his own disciples when he speaks of the sphere of influence of the Comforter? “You know him … he dwells with you … he will be in you”. Quite clearly the disciples were to anticipate the coming of the Comforter as a spirit who would come to them just after Jesus had left them. No other interpretation can possibly be drawn from this text. Only wishful thinking makes the Muslims allege that Muhammad was foretold by Jesus, but a practical interpretation of the texts destroys this possibility.
Let us read how the Spirit came to Jesus: “The Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove” (Luke 3.22). We read that the Spirit, the Comforter, came to the disciples in a similar way just after the ascension of Jesus (as Jesus told them he would): “And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2.3-4). He was with the disciples in the person of Jesus while he was still with them, and he was in the disciples from the day of Pentecost. We thus see the prediction Jesus made in John 14.17 duly fulfilled in the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Within only ten days after the ascension of Jesus, the disciples duly received the Comforter as he was promised to them by Jesus. He had told them to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, should come (Acts 1.4-8) as indeed he did while they were all together praying for his advent in the city. Muhammad is right out of this picture. …….
http://answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/muhammad.html#Part_3
Sonlight says: I have reproduced here parts of the article which I understand and which is very clear to me in its logic. (I encourage all to read the full article.)
Muhammad is not the COMFORTER to come after Jesus.
Peace…out.
Hi Sonlight,
You’re still so adamant that the Comforter was the Holy Ghost. Jesus, Holy Ghost & the Father are One. So what’s talking about ANOTHER here? Who is this ANOTHER? Don’t tell me it was the Holy Ghost, since it had appeared during Jesus life. Jesus said HE will only come AFTER Jesus left.
Please explain.
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Muhammad pbuh foretold in the Bible. Christians denial is in vain.
Isaiah 29:11-18 (New International Version)
11 For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him, “Read this, please,” he will answer, “I can’t; it is sealed.” 12 Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, “Read this, please,” he will answer, “I don’t know how to read.”
Isaiah foretold that the messenger was illiterate, This fits Muhammad pbuh, when Arch Angel Gabriel appeared and taught Muhammad the first revelation, Surah Al”Alaq which begins with “Read In the Name of Your Lord….”. Muhammad first response was “I don’t know how to read”.
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Habakkuk verse 3:3
“3. God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.”
This verse refers to, two places Teman and Paran. Teman is an oasis just north of Madinah. That is referring to Madinah. Paran is a name for Makkah, because the bible says Hagar and Ismael PBUH were left in Paran. Which is what known as Makkah. Muhammad means praised, he is the most praised one on earth.
This verse is all about Muhammad PBUH.
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Isaiah 21:7 it states:
“When he sees riders, horsemen in pairs, A train of donkeys, a train of camels, Let him pay close attention, very close attention.”
Jesus PBUH because he rode a donkey and the only one prophet who rode the camel was Muhammad pbuh. This verse refers to both Jesus and Muhammad pbuh.
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In Deuteronomy verse 33:1-2 it states:
“1 This is the blessing which Moses, the man of God, pronounced upon the Israelites before he died.
2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.”
Sinai is where Moses PBUH came from.
Seir are mountains in Philistin, which is referring to Jesus PBUH.
Mount Paran is again referring to Makkah, and of Muhammad PBUH. The ten thousand saints is referring to the ten thousand Sahabas (companions of Muhammad) who with Muhammad opened Makkah.
There’s abundant of proofs that foretold the coming of Muhammad pbuh besides Jesus pbuh in the Old Testament but Christians just tried to ignore.
Peace
The Jew who testified the last prophet will be from Arabia.
Narrated by Ibn Ishaq,
Salama bin Salaam bin Waqsh, said a Jewish neighbor in Medinah told his family about the Resurrection, the day of judgement, the reckoning, and heaven and hell. He said that to polytheist who did not believe him. They asked him “what proof is there?”, the Jew told them that a prophet will come from these lands(Arabia) and he pointed toward Makkah and Yemen. They asked when he will come, the Jew pointed at Salama who was the youngest and said if he lives a natural life he will see him.
True enough, Salama lived to see Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him).
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Sonlight quoted:
Jesus is never called the “periklutos” in the Bible (the word appears nowhere in the Bible)
My reply:
Jesus himself mentioned that he was a parakletos.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1 John 2:1)
Bible translated Parakletos as advocate when referring to Jesus, but translated as “Comforter” to the “Another” Parakletos. See how Bible is full of deceptions.
Peace
Proof of Muhammad in the Book of Isaiah.
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Isaiah foretold the coming of Muhammad Not Jesus. Though Christians tried to apply the verses to Jesus Christ, Muhammad is clearly a better fit.
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Isaiah 63:1-7:
1 Who is this who comes from Edom, With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, This One who is majestic in His apparel, Marching in the greatness of His strength? “It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
2 Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
My comments:
Muhammad was first of all an Edomite (see information below **); Jesus was not. Muhammad spent a lot of time in Bozrah during his merchant days; Jesus never went to Bozrah. ______________________________________________________________________________
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
My comments:
Muhammad was a military leader, hence the “red apparel”, “garments like the one who treads in the wine press”.
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4 “For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come.
5 “And I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me; And My wrath upheld Me.
6 “And I trod down the peoples in My anger, And made them drunk in My wrath, And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”
My comments:
Muhammad for quite sometime was essentially “alone” in Mecca; he was persecuted and had his life threatened on many occasions by the Meccans. However, he later exacted vengeance on the Meccans, and “trod down the peoples in My anger”.
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7 I shall make mention of the loving kindnesses of the LORD, the praises of the LORD, According to all that the LORD has granted us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has granted them according to His compassion, And according to the multitude of His loving kindnesses. (NASB)
My comments:
Muhammad constantly praised God and contrasts the blessings “granted us” with the “great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has granted them”.
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***Edomites and Arabs
The Bible strongly implies that the descendants of Ishmael and Esau (Edomites) were closely linked through marriage/bloodlines and geography. Esau married one of Ishmael’s daughters (see Gen. 28:9; 36:3); and Ezekiel 25: 12-14 links Edom with Teman and Dedan, indicating that the descendants of Esau ranged from North Arabia (i.e. Edom/Idumea) all the way thru South Arabia (i.e. Dedan).
Christians please wake up.
Peace
To Zaid
You say: “zaid, Mar 23rd, 2010 at 8:25 pm, Hi Sonlight,
You’re still so adamant that the Comforter was the Holy Ghost. Jesus, Holy Ghost & the Father are One. So what’s talking about ANOTHER here? Who is this ANOTHER? Don’t tell me it was the Holy Ghost, since it had appeared during Jesus life. Jesus said HE will only come AFTER Jesus left.
Please explain.
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Sonlight replies: From my understanding, the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit has descended upon persons for specific purposes since the time of the Old Testament (e.g. Judges 14:19 . Another example is Luke 2:25,26 ). However, after the purpose was achieved, He left (as I understand it).
About the Holy Spirit, it is written :John 14:16,17 (ESV) – 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.” (ESV)
You (Zaid) correctly say :”When Jesus mentioned ANOTHER, Jesus was referring to himself as the first Parakletos.” – Zaid.
The second COMFORTER/HELPER/ADVOCATE is the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit. He is the One referred to as ANOTHER COMFORTER.
After Jesus rose from the dead, the Holy Spirit came to dwell IN the disciples. Jesus said that the Helper will be with the disciples FOREVER. (This time the Holy Spirit is with disciples FOREVER unlike before the resurrection and in the OT. The Holy Spirit has come to dwell IN the disciples AFTER Jesus had departed.)
Only God can be with the disciples forever. Jesus (the First Comforter) is God.
The Holy Spirit (the Second Comforter) is God.
You (Zaid) say: “It is obvious that Jesus was referring to someone who was similar to Jesus, ..”-zaid, Mar 21st, 2010 at 10:23 pm.
Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Do you see the similarity.
Muhammad cannot be the Comforter because Muhammad died. He is not with his followers forever. You may say that Muhammad is with his followers in the form of his teachings.
But Muhammad did not appear at the time of the disciples of Christ (to whom the Bible verse is addressed).
Muhammad is 500 years too late.
Muhammad is NOT the Comforter to come after Jesus.
To Zaid
I have chosen to address the topic of Muhammad supposedly appearing in Deut. 18:18 and in the New Testament , supposedly, as the Comforter because I feel that this two ideas are the most popular in Islam. It was mentioned to me by another Muslim.
I shall not be addressing your references to the Book of Isaiah. I see it as another excercise in self-deception. After all I have written, I see no need to reply.
Some persons reading what I have written about Muhammad and Deut. 18:18 (Sonlight, Mar 16th, 2010 at 5:11 am) and Muhammad and the Comforter (Sonlight, Mar 23rd, 2010 at 4:06 am) I believe, will take your writings about Muhammad supposed appearance in the book of Isaiah, with a pinch of salt.
Hoping that you will come to know the Truth and the Light that is the Son.
Peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
Since you insist on Deuteronomy 18:18 I’ll continue on this issues.
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
If THESE TWO ARE THE ONLY CRITERIA for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then it SHOULD HAVE APPLIED to all the Prophets of the Bible who came after Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) since ALL WERE JEWS as well as prophets. Why should it be specifically Jesus?
However, God actually was referring to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):
‘Among their brethren’ clearly refers to a nation other than the Israelites. Otherwise it should have been ‘Amongst yourselves’.
The reference in (Deuteronomy 18:18) could fit nobody else except Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and not Prophet Jesus, for the following reasons:
Do not forget that deuteronomy 18:18 is linked to:
Deuteronomy 34:10
Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.
From the above, why God said NO PROPHET HAS RISEN IN ISRAEL LIKE MOSES, wherelse if based on your interpretation on “Among your own brothers”, there’s already plenty of Jewish Prophets after Moses INCLUDING Jesus.
Almost ALL prophets faced persecutions and opposed by the ppl, so any of them could be LIKE Moses, not just Jesus. If you only based on such criterias.
Deuteronomy 34:10 is linked to Deuteronomy 32:21
..and I (God Almighty) will move them (the Jews) to jealousy with those (the Arabs) which are NOT A PEOPLE (a non-entity): I will provoke them (the Jews) to anger with a FOOLISH NATION,” |the pre-Islamic Arabs)
So if we first read Deuteronomy 18:18 then 34:10 and then 32:21, you will understand why the prophet mentioned in deuteronomy 18:18 is Mohammed pbuh.
Ps. about that “bretheren”, it revers to the arabs, since they also come forth from abraham’s (pbuh) seed.
Brother (or bretheren) does not have to mean a real brother, because it is usual in hebrew (and arabic) to say to someone: “hey brother” or “you are my brother (in faith)”. or to say it to a cousin or someone from Indonesia says to someone from Malaysia: “hey brother”. so brother has many meanings in hebrew, and everybody knows that.
So you said, “bretheren means someone from his own nation (jew).”, I say: ” Why could it then not mean someone from their brother nation(arabs). Since bretheren has many meanings. ”
And Mohammed’s (pbuh) grandfathers are Ismaël and Abraham (pbut).
Christians always try to restrict the translation of words to fit into their purposes and flawed beliefs.
Truth always prevail. Islam is Truth
Peace
To Zaid
You say, “zaid, Mar 24th, 2010 at 10:22 am, – Hi Sonlight,
Since you insist on Deuteronomy 18:18 I’ll continue on this issues.
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
If THESE TWO ARE THE ONLY CRITERIA for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then it SHOULD HAVE APPLIED to all the Prophets of the Bible who came after Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) since ALL WERE JEWS as well as prophets. Why should it be specifically Jesus? ” – Zaid
Sonlight’s reply: The two criteria does apply to all the prophets. That is why I stated earlier “Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is talking about a line of prophets and not just one prophet. (Moses would eventually die). Jesus (from Israel) is along this line. In Acts 3:17-23 we read that Jesus is the prophet like Moses. Deuteronomy 18:18 therefore is also a prophecy about Jesus.” Sonlight
Mar 14th, 2010 at 10:04 pm.
From the above writings, what is obvious is that Muhammad is not a Jew and therefore does not fit the required criteria.
Also you (Zaid) say:”Deuteronomy 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.- Deuteronomy 34:10”
From the above, why God said NO PROPHET HAS RISEN IN ISRAEL LIKE MOSES, wherelse if based on your interpretation on “Among your own brothers”, there’s already plenty of Jewish Prophets after Moses INCLUDING Jesus. – Zaid.
Sonlight’s reply: I believe you misread the words.
The words are “… (1)Since then, (2)no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, (3)whom the LORD knew face to face…Deuteronomy 34:10”
(1) ‘Since then” – meaning -’since that time’
(2) ‘no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses’ – does not mean that there were no prophets after Moses but that the prophets after Moses did not have the same great stature. There were many Jewish prophets.
(3)whom the LORD knew face to face…” indicates that God personally spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:4) – ” When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” (ESV)
FYI.- 1 Samuel 3:4-8 . – We see the Lord God personally call the prophet Samuel.
Also Isaiah 6:8 . – And I (Isaiah) heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
Also Jeremiah 1:6-8 “….But the Lord said to me (Jeremiah)….”
From the above verses, we see God personally speaking to His prophets as he did with Moses.
I stated earlier ” Moses and Jesus heard the voice of God. Moses became aware that the voice was that of God almost immediately. (Exodus 3:4,5,6)
{I heard that Muhammad, in the beginning,did not believe that the voice he heard (supposedly) was that of an angel and had to be convinced by someone else. This is in contrast with Moses.}”
So we see here God’s prophets literally hear God’s voice.
Muhammad (supposedly) heard the voice of an angel ( and he was not sure who he was listening to but had to be convinced by someone else after the angel had left , supposedly)
Muhammad is in contrast to Moses and the other prophets. Mohammad is not like Moses.
to be continued.
Hi Sonlight,
Moses was commanded to the Mount Sinai by God and God spoke to him.
Do you know that Muhammad pbuh was ascended to the heavens to see God in Israk & Mikraj? This was during Muhammad’s pbuh life and alive. During this journey and encounter with God, the 5 prayers were commanded to Muhammad and all Muslims. So Muhammad witnessed and heard God like Moses. Muhammad heard God’s voice in his life. So God did spoke to Muhammad pbuh.
As for Jesus, when and how did God spoke to Jesus? How can God talk to Himself?You conveniently switched Jesus to a prophet, then to God and vice versa to support your agenda and to fit Jesus into the prophecies foretold by the prophets before him.
I have proven on the 1st criteria that “among their bretheren” can no longer be used to fit Jesus into this prophecies else ALL other prophets can also be qualified. So based on the 2nd criteria which is “Like unto thee”:
Apart from being a Jew, Jesus is not similar to Moses.
Based on your Christians beliefs on Jesus, I made the comparisons:
Moses- Normal Birth, Jesus- No Father
Moses- Married and had a family, Jesus – Unmarried
Moses died , Jesus died, resurrected and ascended to heaven
Moses lead Israel nation, Jesus never lead any nation.
Moses a human and prophet, Jesus prophet and God.
Moses sinned, Jesus never sinned.
Moses had revelations from God, Jesus came not to abolish but fulfill Laws of the Torah. So there’s no new revelations from God to Jesus. By the way,God doesn’t need revelations since God is the Law maker right?, if you claim Jesus is God.
Moses born when the Pharoah ordered all male babies to be killed. Jesus was said to be born during King Herod?? There are contradictions by the 4 Gospel writers on this matter.
Moses opposed by his ppl but subsequently accepted. Jesus was accepted by his disciples.
So, there’s nothing similar between Moses and Jesus, except both were Jews and prophets (as what you claimed unto Jesus, besides being God).
Talking about similarities in miracles, all prophets including Muhammad pbuh had performed miracles in their lives. Muhammad had plenty of miracles, which you wouldn’t believe a single even if I quoted.
Most of the above differences between Moses and Jesus, had proven Muhammad pbuh to have similar accounts and encounter as like Moses.
Peace
To Zaid
Just an observation. You say:
“…Apart from being a Jew, Jesus is not similar to Moses.
Based on your Christians beliefs on Jesus, I made the comparisons:
Moses- Normal Birth, Jesus- No Father
Moses- Married and had a family, Jesus – Unmarried
Moses died , Jesus died, resurrected and ascended to heaven
Moses lead Israel nation, Jesus never lead any nation.
Moses a human and prophet, Jesus prophet and God.
Moses sinned, Jesus never sinned.
Moses had revelations from God, Jesus came not to abolish but fulfill Laws of the Torah. So there’s no new revelations from God to Jesus. By the way,God doesn’t need revelations since God is the Law maker right?, if you claim Jesus is God.
Moses born when the Pharoah ordered all male babies to be killed. Jesus was said to be born during King Herod?? There are contradictions by the 4 Gospel writers on this matter.
Moses opposed by his ppl but subsequently accepted. Jesus was accepted by his disciples.
So, there’s nothing similar between Moses and Jesus, except both were Jews and prophets (as what you claimed unto Jesus, besides being God)…….
Most of the above differences between Moses and Jesus, had proven Muhammad pbuh to have similar accounts and encounter as like Moses……( zaid, Mar 24th, 2010 at 8:45 pm)
Sonlight says:The weakness of your Islamic position in trying to show the similarities between Moses and Muhammad is that the similarities are not of the miraculous.
1) Moses and Muhammad had normal births ( So is everyone ever born except Adam, Eve and Jesus. ) Nothing Miraculous about that (whereas Jesus was born of a virgin).
2) Moses and Muhammad had a family (but not Jesus). Again nothing miraculous.
3) “Moses lead Israel nation, Jesus never lead any nation.”- Zaid. Your point being that Muhammad also led a nation like Moses. But this again is not miraculous. Obama, Lee Kuan Yew, Churchil..etc are/ were leaders. Impressive achievements but not miraculous.
I do not get this point: “Moses died , Jesus died, resurrected and ascended to heaven” – Zaid.
As Christians see it, Moses died, Mohammad died, Jesus died. (Christians believe Jesus rose from the dead.). We cannot do a comparison here because Muslims believe that Jesus did not die.
You say:”Moses sinned, Jesus never sinned (as Christians believe).”-Zaid,. Again we cannot do a reasonable comparison because Christians and Muslims believe different things here (e.g. Muslims believe that Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are sinless as are all prophets according to Islam.)
“Moses had revelations from God” – Zaid. Again I do not get the point here. There are persons claiming to be prophets from other religions with their own gods, laws, holy books, revelations along with Muhammad. If you were to say that Moses brought down God’s Law (i.e 10 commandments etc) and Muhammad brought Syariah law; this does not carry weight with Christians as Christians do not believe Syariah Law or Muhammad is from God (though possibly some aspects of Syariah Law may be a copy of parts of the Bible.) Again this point has nothing special in it as other (false) prophets claim to have something similar.
I could explain some more but I want to get to the point.
Muslim propagandist can try to find more similarities between Moses and Mohammed. Christians can point out similarities between Jesus and Moses (e.g Sonlight, Mar 16th, 2010 at 5:11 am) some of which are of a miraculous type. But actually my looking for similarities between Moses and Jesus is just to show the weakness of the Muslim position of looking for similarities between
Moses and Muhammad just to show/ say that they are similar. From my reading, why I understand Jesus is the prophet of Deut. 18:18 and Mohammad is not is because Moses and Jesus are from Israel (Muhammad is not from Israel). This is the main reason.
Again: Deuteronomy 18:18 “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (KJV)
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, ..” means that the prophet is from Israel. Muhammad is not from Israel therefore Muhammad is not the prophet foretold.
Muslims must now try, somehow, to twist and turn the words of the Bible to make the words “”I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,” …Deuteronomy 18:18 – to fit Muhammad.
If they fail in this, one of Islam’s biggest, popular, propaganda item/belief is proven to be false ( which causes one to question everything else in Islam).
to be continued.
peace…out.
To Zaid
You say : “zaid’ Mar 24th, 2010 at 8:45 pm…
“….Do you know that Muhammad pbuh was ascended to the heavens to see God in Israk & Mikraj? This was during Muhammad’s pbuh life and alive. During this journey and encounter with God, the 5 prayers were commanded to Muhammad and all Muslims. So Muhammad witnessed and heard God like Moses. Muhammad heard God’s voice in his life. So God did spoke to Muhammad pbuh….” .. Zaid
Sonlights reply: Where did you get this story from? Is it in the Quran? I heard that the Quran tells you to pray but it does not say how many times. I heard that it is in the Hadith that it is taught you should pray five times a day. So I guess that this story is from the Hadith. But the Hadith is not agreed upon by all Muslims and even completely rejected by some.
But as a good Muslim you must show that Muhammad talked with God (and use the Hadith to support your claim) therefore showing Muhammad to be like Moses also.
I wish to point out that there is still a difference. Moses (and Samuel) heard God’s voice from the beginning. Muhammad heard an angel (supposedly) in the beginning (and was not sure who he was talking to).
Whether or not Moses spoke with God in the present of all the people, we know that Moses (or rather God) parted the Red Sea and the people passed through it. The people witnessed a miracle and so they knew God was with Moses. This also applies to Jesus (because of His miracles)
As for the story of Muhammad going up to heaven and talking with God (Did anybody see it?), I suggest to you that these are later inventions created to fill up an obvious short-coming in Islam: It is a religion lacking in miracles.
You will want to believe these stories (along with the supposed miracles of Muhammad) from the disputed Hadiths of course. I will not argue with you about that as I see no point. It is a matter of faith.
to be continued
Peace …out.
Sonlights reply:
Where did you get this story from? Is it in the Quran? I heard that the Quran tells you to pray but it does not say how many times. I heard that it is in the Hadith that it is taught you should pray five times a day. So I guess that this story is from the Hadith. But the Hadith is not agreed upon by all Muslims and even completely rejected by some.
___________________________________________________________
My reply:
I’ve anticipated your negative responses if I were to mention on Muhammad’s pbuh miracles. Thats why I didn’t elaborate on any of his miracles as you will deny them. You further accused Muslims of blind faiths for believing the Quran and Hadith .
You are just desperate in your attempt to disprove Hadiths, claiming not All Muslims believed the Hadith. If there is any Muslim who rejects the hadiths than how do they perform their ibadah? Like prayers, fast, Hajj etc.. , No Muslims who rejected the Hadith can be Muslims who can perform their prayers and ibadah without abiding by the actions, practices and words of Muhammad.
ALL MUSLIMS ABIDE BY THE HADITHS, THATS WHY YOU OBSERVE THE UNIFORMITY IN ISLAM PRACTICES AND WORSHIP EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Of course, there are some weak and false hadiths which we rejected, not due to its contents, rather on the weak sources, narrators or authenticity.
In the Quran, Allah decrees “Laqad kaana lakum fi rasulillah uswatun hasanah”. “That in the messenger of Allah (Muhammad), there are perfect examples for you(as your guidance)”. So Muhammad is the LIVING QURAN. If Muhammad had contradict the Quran, his companions and followers will be the first to detect this and he will lose his credibility. Muhammad pbuh in his life was called “AL- Amin” by Muslims and Non Muslims. Meaning the “praised and trusted” one. He had lived to this reputation till the end of his life.
You are cooking up stories that some Muslims rejected hadith so attempting to discredit Hadith authenticity.
However, when doing so, you did not apply the same standard to your own bible and beliefs. Did any of you witnessed Jesus miracles, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension? Even all those who wrote the bible did not have any encounter with Jesus. Not just Muslims deny Bible, many Christians in the world even doubted the Bible, yet many didn’t practice what Bible teaches. Till date, Bible Scholars still disputing on your bible authenticity and made many revisions, omissions, editions and modifications to “correct” the “Truth”. How corrupted is your “God’s words” now.
Peace
Hi Sonlight,
The journey of Muhammad’s ascension (Isra’ Mikraj) in the Quran. The chapter name is Surah Al-Isra’. There are also verse from different chapters relating to the Isra Mikraj.
Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
—Qur’an, Sura Al-Isra[8]
Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about: We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,- as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur’an: We put terror (and warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!
—Qur’an, Sura Al-Isra[19]
For indeed he saw him at a second descent,
Near the Lote-tree beyond which none may pass:
Near it is the Garden of Abode.
Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!)
(His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!
—Qur’an, Sura An-Najm[18]
Allah has said in surah Fussilat verse 53:
“Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes clear to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord witness all things?”
Peace.
Hi Sonlight,
MIRACLES OF MUHAMMAD SPLITTING THE MOON
Nasa had recently located a sign they termed as “Rocky Belt” which shows the moon was once split.
The splitting of Moon incident occurred and recorded during the life of Muhammad pbuh. This occurred when the Jahiliyah challenged Muhammad pbuh proofs of being a True messenger of Allah.
Here it goes:
The unbelievers of Makkah said to the prophet that if you are truly a prophet split the moon and if you do we shall believe. It was a full moon that night.
And so the prophet prayed to Allah to grant him this miracle, and the moon was split. Half was seen over Mount. Saffa, and the other half was seen over Mount. Kaikaan.
The people said that the prophet has placed a spell on us, however if he played a trick on us, then he cant play a trick on all the people in the world! Abu Jahl then said: “let us wait until the people of Albadiah ( A Tribe )come, and if they saw the moon split, then it is true, if not then we all know it was a trick of magic.
When the people of Albadiah came they said that they too saw the moon split, and the disbelievers said “oh, how powerful Mohammad’s magic is!”
____________________________________________________________
The Quran also mentions the splitting is Sura Al-Qamar.
In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
The Last Hour has drawn near, and the moon has split. But whenever they see a sign, they turn away and say, ‘This is evident magic.’ (54:1-2)
This took place in the days of the prophet Muhammad in Makkah.
Geologists concluded that the traces of “Rocky Belt” couldn’t be unless the moon was once split and resealed. The rocks on the belt are a result of the impact during the time that the two halves of the moon recombined.
A miracle of Muhammad indeed which was proven only after Man reaches the Moon. How indeed could Muhammad pbuh or the Quran lied, since 1400yrs ago nobody had stepped on the Moon yet?
So who says Muhammad pbuh never performed miracles? You may ascertain the truth yourself if you are doubtful.
Peace
To Zaid,
About the supposed meeting between God and Muhammad, I said :”You will want to believe these stories (along with the supposed miracles of Muhammad) from the disputed Hadiths of course. I will not argue with you about that as I see no point. It is a matter of faith.”
So, whether the stories are from the Hadith or the Quran, I feel it is not worthwhile to debate with you about them. It is a matter of faith.
I wish now to address what you said:
zaid,Mar 24th, 2010 at 10:22 am, Hi Sonlight,
Since you insist on Deuteronomy 18:18 I’ll continue on this issues.
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
If THESE TWO ARE THE ONLY CRITERIA for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then it SHOULD HAVE APPLIED to all the Prophets of the Bible who came after Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) since ALL WERE JEWS as well as prophets. Why should it be specifically Jesus? “- Zaid
Also you say:
zaid, Mar 24th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
‘I have proven on the 1st criteria that “among their bretheren” can no longer be used to fit Jesus into this prophecies else ALL other prophets can also be qualified. So based on the 2nd criteria which is “Like unto thee”- zaid, Mar 24th, 2010 at 8:45 pm.
__________________________________________
Sonlight’s reply: From what you have written, I believe you see the point that I am saying (though you do not agree with them.)
1) “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,….” Deuteronomy 18:18
The first criteria is that the prophet has to be a Jew. (You say:”If THESE TWO ARE THE ONLY CRITERIA for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then it SHOULD HAVE APPLIED to all the Prophets of the Bible who came after Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) since ALL WERE JEWS………” – Zaid.
My understanding of the words are that the criteria for being A prophet ( and not only THE PROPHET) was to be a Jew. (God was answering the Jew’s request in Deuteronomy 18:16 and so gave them prophets “from among their brethren”. ) You, yourself, pointed out “all the Prophets of the Bible who came after Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) since ALL WERE JEWS………” – Zaid.
2) The second criteria (as I understand is) : “….and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” Deuteronomy 18:18
A person may be a Jew but if God does not put God’s own words in the person’s mouth than that person is not a true prophet.
Regarding the words “….like unto thee”, all the true prophets were Jews and being prophets, God put his words into their mouth; so they were “like unto (Moses)”. They met the two criteria.
Christian writers may point out why Jesus was THE PROPHET when compared to other prophets, but what is very clear is that they were all Jews.
Muhammad is not THE PROPHET because 1) he is not a Jew and 2) (You do not want to hear this)
God did not put His words in Muhammad’s mouth.
to be continued.
Peace…. out.
To Zaid
You say: “However, God actually was referring to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh): ‘Among their brethren’ clearly refers to a nation other than the Israelites. Otherwise it should have been ‘Amongst yourselves’. The reference in (Deuteronomy 18:18) could fit nobody else except Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him),…. ” zaid, Mar 24th, 2010
at 10:22 am
Again: Deuteronomy 18:18 “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (KJV)
I mentioned the following earlier. I shall elaborate further.
“Deuteronomy 18:18 is part of a passage.
Beginning from Deuteronomy 17:14 til Deuteronomy 18:22 we see Moses giving instructions regarding kings of Israel, priests, and prophets…..
About PRIEST: – Deuteronomy 18:2 They(priest) shall have no inheritance(land) among their brothers; the LORD is their inheritance, as he promised them. (NIV) ”
OR in KJV : “Deuteronomy 18:2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
So we see the term “among their brethren” appears here as well as in Deuteronomy 18:18.
The priest of Israel, at the time of Moses, all came from one tribe (all descendants of just one son of the many sons of Israel).
So the words “among their brethren” (as I understand) can possibly mean 1) from among the men of Israel or 2) from among the other tribes of Israel ( the brother tribes of the tribe of the priest).
Whether we accept it the first or second way, we still end up referring to Jews when we say ” among their brethren”.
About the KING: Deuteronomy 17:15 (KJV)
15Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. (KJV)
“….. from among thy brethren” must mean a person from Israel for the Jews have never chosen a king to rule over them who was not a Jew, as far as I know. (This is in agreement with our common- sense).
So like-wise in Deuteronomy 18:18 ” among their brethren” must also mean from “among the Jewish brothers”. The next prophet to follow Moses and the future PROPHET to come were to be Jews.
Muhammad is not a Jew and so is not THE PROPHET.
Also you say:
“Brother (or bretheren) does not have to mean a real brother, because it is usual in hebrew (and arabic) to say to someone: “hey brother” or “you are my brother (in faith)”. or to say it to a cousin or someone from Indonesia says to someone from Malaysia: “hey brother”. so brother has many meanings in hebrew, and everybody knows that.
So you said, “bretheren means someone from his own nation (jew).”, I say: ” Why could it then not mean someone from their brother nation(arabs). Since bretheren has many meanings. ”
This line of reasoning is flawed because the term “among thy brethren” is used when selecting a King.
Deuteronomy 17:15“….. one from among thy BRETHREN shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a STRANGER over thee, which is not thy brother.”- King James Version. (CAPITALS are mine).
The king was to be from the BRETHREN of Israel ( and the kings of Israel were from Israel).
As I understand the verse, those who were not from Israel God Himself describes as STRANGERS.
So as far as selecting a king, priest or prophet for the people of Israel, anyone who is not a Jew is a stranger (rather than a brother, as you suggest).
I do not wish to write more on this point.
I have explained, to all who care to listen, why Muhammad is not the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18 as best I can.
I have stated my points for everyone’s (hopefully) objective consideration.
To still believe that Muhammad is the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18 is just due to bias.
I cannot open your eyes if you choose not to see. I leave it in God’s hands.
To all
Peace …. out
Hi Sonlight,
So you agreed that “Brethren” can also mean brothers of the same father, like Isaac and Ishmael or even cousins.
Then we should further look into the signs of this prophet.
Isaiah 42:
1- Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Mine elect= Mustafa in arabic which Al Mustafa was also Muhammad’s name. Muhammad established a state and ruled with his law that given by God. Therefore he set judgment in the earth and he did not fall and he was not discouraged.
Jesus didn’t bring judgment to the Gentiles as his ministry was too short for him to accomplish that. Jesus fell and discouraged (you will find many places in NT about this) and he couldn’t set judgment in the earth because his followers were a few. They had little faith and yet “forsook him and fled” at the time that Roman soldiers came to arrest Jesus (pbuh).
Jesus (pbuh) himself says “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence ” John 18:36
So Jesus wasn’t the King or prophet that shall bring judgment to the Gentiles which prophets before him foretold.
But Muhammad pbuh did.
Peace
Hi Sonlight,
New Testament Looks Forward to a Future Revelation.
—————————————————
And I [Jesus], will ask the Father and he will send you another Paraclete to be with you forever (John 14:16). I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come (John 16:12-13).
Jesus said “I have MANY things to say, but you cannot bear them now.”
Jesus foretold about “MANY THINGS TO BE SAID” that will come after him. It should different from what Jesus had preached or taught as “you cannot bear them now”. So there’d be new revelations from the Another Paraclete.
As I’ve understand, what your Bible wrote are all past history from the Old Testament, Jesus life & Teachings.
So where was this new revelations, which Jesus said ” you cannot bear them now? “. Don’t tell me its from Paul, or the Anonymous Mark, Luke, Matthew and John as they’ve each brought nothing new. Did the Holy Spirit brought any “New Revelations?”
Show me the “Many Things to be said” that Jesus mentioned, if you can if it is not Quran.
Peace
Sonlight says:
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, ..” means that the prophet is from Israel. Muhammad is not from Israel therefore Muhammad is not the prophet foretold.
My reply:
You tried to twist the meaning of this verse. The word “their” was referring to the Jewish entity or race as a whole. Otherwise, God would have pointed to Moses that the prophet will be “from among your (Moses) own brothers”. Wasn’t Moses a Jew? Why God need to mention “their” when talking to Moses (a Jew)? Didn’t God know that Moses was a Jew? Why mentioned “Their” not “Your”?? Logically God was referring to the brother of the entire Jewish race, which was another race, the Arabs. God wasn’t talking about the brother of another Jewish Individual here.
See the point?
Logical enough it should be the descendants of Ishmael, Isaac’s brother. If only God had said to Moses “Among your brothers”, it make sense that it was another Jew. However, while saying to Moses, God chose to mention “Among THEIR brethren”.
The word “THEIR” is referring to THE WHOLE JEWISH ENTITY/RACE,therefore it wasn’t referring to another Jew, but another RACE which was none other but the Arabs.
Look who is biased in the interpretation here? You are doomed by the ever lasting decepting Jewish plot. Jews regarded themselves as God’s Chosen Ones since all the while the prophets were Jews. However, God has chosen the seal of prophets to be Muhammad pbuh from the Arabs as a lesson to them.This is logical enough, since from time to time God sent His prophets to the Jews, but they persecuted and denied the prophets while still remained in sheer trangressions.
Come to the Truth, Islam
Peace
To All
Just wanting to share this beautiful short clip.
It is about one person’s view of ‘Jesus as God’.
It has become one of my favourite clips. It is by Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a Hamas leader; probably the most famous Christian convert in the world at the moment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPCMzxr03Rw
He says Jesus is the best in a beautiful way.
To All
The last mentioned clip has been removed from that address. You may want to google — -Mosab Hassan Yousef – “Who is my Real Enemy?” -
I’ve googled him. BBC says:
The son of a jailed Hamas leader who converted to Christianity and moved to California has gone public to say that he spied for Israel.
Speaking before the release of a book about his life, Mosab Hassan Yousef made the assertion in an interview for Israel’s Haaretz newspaper.
A former deputy head of Israel’s Shin Bet intelligence service told BBC World Service he had been one of its agents.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8533952.stm
For someone who could have betrayed his own country and fled, we can see his desperation and his motive to convert to Christianity. So sonlight, what good it is to have a loser to be with you?
Syukri
To Syukri
As always, I find your biased Muslim interpretations of events entertaining reading.
You say:”For someone who could have betrayed his own country and fled, we can see his desperation and his motive to convert to Christianity. So sonlight, what good it is to have a loser to be with you?”- Syukri, Apr 15th, 2010 at 2:34 am.
As I see it, Mosab’s original people (i.e. the Palestinians) are largely tied to Hamas and/or Muslim ideology.
Once he came to the conclusion that Islam is not true he decided to work against Islamic ideology. Mosab is working against what he considers false beliefs rather than against Muslims (the people) or his father. Rather than going against his people ( some would say betraying them) Mosab is actually trying to help them by rescuing them from false beliefs.
From his videos (which are easy to find in cyberspace) we hear him say he loves his people and his father. To say that he betrayed his people, as if he had done some terrible thing, is just playing with words. It depends on one’s perspective.
Next, you say he fled. From my viewing of his videos,(if I remember correctly) Mosab stated that he wanted to grow in his Christian faith. This growth was more difficult in the Muslim environment he was in. This, I believe, most will see as understandable. It is therefore not surprising that he moved to the USA.
Regarding “..his motive to convert to Christianity”, perhaps you would like to state why you think this son of a founder/ leader of a Muslim organization converted to Christianity. Can you accept that Mosab (after more than 5 years of studying and comparing Islam and Christianity) thinks Christianity is the one that is true and Islam is false.
Also, you say:”..,we can see his desperation..”. I do not know what “desperation” you are referring to. Was Mosab afraid? Bear in mind, he had been a spy for Israel for years. The “desperation” that is obvious to me is his intent to live openly as a Christian; something that, I believe, will not be accepted by the Muslims of Hamas.
If anyone sounds desperate, it is you Syukri. You are desperate to paint a bad picture of Mosab.
You call him a “loser” even. (Perhaps you can explain what you mean by that). The calling of names such as “Loser” does not bother me ( or Mosab I am sure). Whether people of this world consider Mosab a loser or not, I am sure Mosab is concerned that he is not a ‘loser’ in God’s eyes.
That is the only opinion that matters in the end.
Lastly you ask:”So sonlight, what good it is to have a loser to be with you?”
My reply: After reading about the many things he has done to tell people about Lord Jesus, I am happy and proud to call Mosab Hassan Yousef my brother.
peace… out
Just a question to you sonlight,
If what you say that this Mosab guy thinks christianity is the one that is true, why is it that he needs to be afraid of living openly as one in his own country? besides, christianity teaches that you are already been saved. Dying young will only help you be with jesus faster than you think. If u have a strong faith in this doctrine, then you should not be afraid to die. What Mosab did clearly shows on how strong he is in this faith.
To A wanderer,
Welcome to this on-going discussion page.
You say with regards to Mosab :”…christianity teaches that you are already been saved. Dying young will only help you be with jesus faster than you think. If u have a strong faith in this doctrine, then you should not be afraid to die. …” -A wanderer, Apr 15th, 2010 at 6:48 pm.
Your words remind me of the words of Paul (Mosab, I believe, will feel the same way as Paul) –
Philippians 1:21-25 (New International Version)
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,…. (NIV)
So it is not just a question of living openly as a Christian (which I doubt he can do for very long in Gaza) but also of wanting (like Saint Paul) to do ” fruitful labor” for the Lord for as long as possible.
Reading a history of Christianity, some people might think that martyrdom is part of Christian tradition.
FYI, suicide certainly is not.
peace .. out
Sonlight,
What’s there to prove about truth of Christianity from those ex-muslims? Produce your Truth and show it to the world here, if there’s any from your bible. Why need to mention other ppl?
By the way, what influenced these apostates towards christianity are never based on what they have learnt from the Qur’an in depth. Much due to the hostility and terrorism that they witnessed or experienced within their Muslim communities or countries. Each of their testimony only talked about the grievances and sufferings that they had faced within their communities and then tried to relate all these to Islam added with their ignorant and lack of understanding about real Islam.
Noticed something. these apostatesl commonly talked in public or broadcasting company about their “journey” from “Evil” Islam to “Good” Christianity. Are they really out there to guide ppl to the Truth? Or it is a deliberate Western propaganda who sponsor all these ppl to prove the “evil” in Islam to justify their invasion to the oil-riched countries of Islam. Why is there a need of abundant Western medias to bash Islam almost every hour everyday. If Truth is genuinely on your side, then just take out your bible out and broadcast the “Truth” to the world.
Did Christianity teach you Christians to bad mouthed other religion to guide ppl to your “Truth”? Or simply Christianity has NO TRUTH to be publicized, that they need to prove other religion bad to make Christianity “good”.
Islam is truth.
To Zaid
You say :What’s there to prove about truth of Christianity from those ex-muslims? Produce your Truth and show it to the world here, if there’s any from your bible. Why need to mention other ppl?” -zaid, Apr 16th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Sonlight’s reply: The fact that there are ex-Muslims who are now Christians does not proof that Christianity is true. But I believe that ex-Muslims with the background (and standing) of Mosab does cause many to want to look into the reasons why Mosab chose to be a Christian ( Is Christianity more logical? More beautiful? The only religion that is true?…)
The things that Mosab says about Christianity is not new to me. But what I fine moving – (others may find it exciting or troubling depending on who you are) – is the fact that this son of a Muslim leader, with his background, can finally recognize and accept the Light. This is the main issue for me. But I feel that what adds to the surprise for most people is the fact that Mosab (with his association with what some may see as an extremist Muslim group) is now so anti-Islam and so vocal about it.
You say: “Produce your Truth and show it to the world here, if there’s any from your bible. …”- Zaid.
Sonlight’s reply: I have been doing that on this blog-site. Whether people recognize and accept it as “truth” is another question. Mosab is also doing what I am doing but his audience is so much greater because of who he is.
You say: “Why need to mention other ppl?..”- zaid.
Sonlight’s reply :I guess I wanted to attract attention to the points I have been saying. By pointing out that Mosab believes in the points I mentioned ( i.e. Main Christian beliefs) I believe it will cause more people to think.
I wonder if this is the best approach, but I wish to point out that I have seen references in cyberspace by Muslims to Priest, Pastors (supposedly) converting (or is that reverting) to Islam. (I can also ask ‘ why mention them?’)
to be continued…..
Hi Sonlight,
What beauty or values do Christianity brought upon your Christian nations?Fornications, alcoholism, adultery, rape, female exploitations, hundreds of abortions everyday in Christian dominating countries? Christianity is not able to restrict or stops the downfall of human moral and values. So what’s the purpose of your religion? Just submit yourself to Jesus and you’ve got a free ticket to heaven? That Jesus already atone for all your sins, so you are free to indulge in more sins? BTW, any one can just start talking or preach about love and peace even without Christianity but which religion or book is a complete way of life? Answer is Islam!
God the Creator knows very well what human is capable of and how lustful and evil human can be if no restrictions or rules are imposed upon them. So Quran serves as a reminder and complete guidance to human not just in worship, but to lead a life of good moral and values. (Please do not quote non-muslims typical comments that Islam is terrorism and command to kill all Jews and non muslims. Prove the Quran verses if you wish to.)
Tell me which country has never pass any rule or laws for their citizens? Imagine what happens if a country is without rules, laws and regulations. So God knows exactly that human needs to be constantly reminded and restricted on their actions and behaviour. So Quran is the ultimate solutions. In contra, what has Christianity contributes to elevate the moral and values of its followers? Christians are going around claiming the beauty and love of Jesus, but in truth they are a bunch of hypocrites who are immersed in the materialistic world and submitting themselves to their lustful and worldly desires all day and time.
Look at your Christian domain countries cultures and ethics with wide open eyes and judge. Christianity has failed to prevent the social problems and moral downfall of its followers. However, in Islamic ruling nations, these social problems are within control, though you may claim Islamic nations are backward in technology or economy which I see no relevance to relate to each religion.
Islam is the way of life.
Peace
To Sonlight and ALL,
Seeing Allah in Makrifah.
Islam show the true path towards God.
For that God has never departed or isolated from the world.
Allah is not veiled , it is you that are veiled from seeing Him.
If there was anything veiling Him what veiled Him would cover Him.
If he was covered, His existence would be contained.
If something contains something else, it overpowers it.
But He is the Conqueror, overcoming His slaves.
The veil is impossible for the Almighty. Nothing veils Him because He is manifest by everything, before everything and after everything. Nothing is manifest with Him nor does anything exist in reality except Him. So He is not veiled from you. That is which is veiled is you, who are veiled from looking at Him by your reliance on others and the attachment of your heart to physical matters. If your heart had been connected to seeking the Master and had turned away completely from looking at other, it would look at the light of the Real radiant in the places of manifestation of phenomenal being and what was veiled from you by illusion would be ready for witnessing and eye-witnessing.
Cleanse your heart from the worldly and lustful desires, you’ll discover that God is closer to you than you can imagine.
Islam is truth,
Peace
To Zaid,
….continuation of my post – Sonlight – Apr 17th, 2010 at 4:28 am.
You say: “By the way, what influenced these apostates towards christianity are never based on what they have learnt from the Qur’an in depth. Much due to the hostility and terrorism that they witnessed or experienced within their Muslim communities or countries. Each of their testimony only talked about the grievances and sufferings that they had faced within their communities and then tried to relate all these to Islam added with their ignorant and lack of understanding about real Islam.” -zaid, Apr 16th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Again you repeat the lame excuse that Muslims who leave Islam are “ignorant” and “lack of understanding about real Islam” even when Imams, and teachers of Islam have left Islam.
I feel that I need not say more as a reply to you.
I wish, now, to show you a video by an ex- Muslim that I consider clear and well made. (He is not a Christian. Many of his points I have heard before from Christian websites but he says it so well.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP–gdzsBXM
I found it when I googled ” 100% Proof Islam is True?”.
This person has another video where he talks about his background. He has an Egyptian father and an English mother. He became serious about Islam when he was a teenager. He studied Arabic at University. He later worked at a school for Muslim children. He later describes how he lost his faith in Islam.( I do not think he is a Christian as he posted a video critical of the Old Testament.) I did not bookmark his web-site as I thought his videos would be easy to find (silly me!!). The video that you are seeing, I believe, was reposted by somebody else. This is because I clearly remember that the first time I saw this video, it was not on this site.
Please consider this video also as my reply to – James Lang, Mar 2nd, 2010 at 4:04 pm
to be continued…..
Hi Sonlight,
You are too desperate to hunt for such videos to prove the many “flaws” and “errors” in Quran. The video you’ve reckoned talks about flawed Arabic grammar and terrorism in the Quran.
Are you assuming that I don’t understand arabic and Quran? I’m amazed by your effort to show me and other Muslims the flaws and errors in Quran,while Arabic is still being learned, understood and used till today. You should consider your own bible itself, which none was written in the language of Jesus, Aramaic.
Read my reply to Hamzah on the origins of Arabic grammar is from Quran. I’ve also reminded you against quoting Quran verses out of context because there’s no way you can convince me on it. I know exactly the whole context of those “common verses” you non or ex muslims quoted to prove Islamic “terrorism”.
I advise you, Pick Up and Read the whole Quran yourself and post your own opinion and understanding about Islam from what your own perspective. I am ready to discuss with you point to point, word by word about what you have read in the Quran with your own very words and understanding.
Try it. I’m waiting.
———————————————————————————————
For that God has never departed or isolated from the world.
Allah is not veiled , it is you that are veiled from seeing Him.
If there was anything veiling Him what veiled Him would cover Him.
If he was covered, His existence would be contained.
If something contains something else, it overpowers it.
But He is the Conqueror, overcoming His slaves.
Trinity is utter rubbish!
Peace
Islam is Truth
Dear Christians,
Just how can one imagine, God was helpless that He needed to sacrifice his Son to atone for human sins. Can’t God forgive the sins of human without a need to appear as a human, ie his Own Son. What absurdity that God sacrificed Himself in the name of His Son and later “died” and “resurrected”? God died?? Isn’t death is “Imaginary” to God that can only befall on His Creations, i.e, when Life is moved away from the phenomenal being? Like a light, when removed from a mirror surface, darkness (death) befall on the mirror (Creations) but LIfe and Light itself can never and impossibly be separated from God. So how can The Life itself appear as the opposite?
Book of Genesis says: God was disappointed that his Creations had disobeyed Him? First the angel turned satan and then human named Adam, who disobeyed him and ate the forbidden fruit? God didn’t expect that his Creations turned against Him? So His knowledge is limited?? So God tried to rebuild His “damaged” relationships with Human by sacrificing Himself in the name of His Son as a show of His Love? God stayed in Mary’s womb for 9 months, later born, went through periods of infancy, teenage and grew up so much that only when he was 33 years old during his ministry that the ppl realize he was God? What was “God” doing for the past 33 years before he started his ministry.
What are sins and disobedience of human and satan to God, being such tiny creatures who reside in a tiny section of the gigantic universe comprising of the planets, moons and stars? Had any of such sins or disobedience affected God in any manner, just proves that God is weak, limited and can be limited by His Own Creations. Wherelse, God is the Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, that He cannot be contained by time, space or location.
The Truth is God is everywhere around His Creations, and the purpose of Life is for one to seek the knowledge of Him, worship Him and obeying His orders. God rewards and punishes based on the deeds of individuals and true salvation is earned through obedience and total submission to God.
God need not appear as His Creation, Jesus to atone for human sins and thereby show His love for human. His Love is already inside us and within His Creations, thats why we can feel, see, hear, touch and think which originate from His Love and Blessings.
God is always with His Creations and had never departed, hidden, veiled or isolated. It is us who are veiled by the secondary traces of phenomenal being.
Wake up Christians before it is too late.
Peace
Islam is the true path towards God.
To Zaid,
You say: ” …I’ve also reminded you against quoting Quran verses out of context because there’s no way you can convince me on it. I know exactly the whole context of those “common verses” you non or ex muslims quoted to prove Islamic “terrorism”…..” – zaid, Apr 18th, 2010 at 10:03 am.
Sonlight’s reply: The weakness of what you say (as I see it) is the fact that the ex-Muslims also know the context of those ” common verses” or what ever verses those ex-Muslim (some of whom were Imams or lecturers in Islam at Islamic University e.g. Mark Gabriel) quoted (whether they were talking about terrorism or something else); and still they left Islam.
Regarding your invitation to read the Quran for myself, I feel that to fully appreciate the Quran, I need to read it in Arabic. But since I see even ex-Muslims who speak Arabic at first language level (e.g. the Egyptian Mark Gabriel, or Mosab Hassan Yousef ) reject the Quran, I feel no need to do so. It would be a waste of my time (unless I wanted to be a missionary in Arab lands). I would prefer to study Hebrew or Greek.
Peace…out
To Zaid,
You say: ‘Noticed something. these apostatesl commonly talked in public or broadcasting company about their “journey” from “Evil” Islam to “Good” Christianity. Are they really out there to guide ppl to the Truth? Or it is a deliberate Western propaganda who sponsor all these ppl to prove the “evil” in Islam to justify their invasion to the oil-riched countries of Islam. Why is there a need of abundant Western medias to bash Islam almost every hour everyday. If Truth is genuinely on your side, then just take out your bible out and broadcast the “Truth” to the world.- zaid,Apr 16th, 2010 at 10:40 pm.
Sonlight’s reply: You writing above is another interesting piece of Islamic propaganda. You suggest a possibility that there is a conspiracy by Western powers (i.e. by refering to “their invasion”) working with or using the media ( through which comes ” Western propaganda”) against Islam.
Also you ask: ” If Truth is genuinely on your side” ( I, Sonlight, take it to mean -”the side of the Christianity”), “then just take out your bible out and broadcast the “Truth” to the world.”- Zaid
It seems to me you are trying to make Islam appear as a victim -(i.e as a religion unfairly attacked by Western powers, Western Media and Christianity). I refer to your expression “bash Islam”. ( I find reading Islamic propaganda entertaining.)
If you feel that the Western powers are attacking Islam because of oil then you should bring up the matter with George Bush, Tony Blair (or Obama and Brown).
If you think that the Western media has some kind of agenda against Islam (whether or not it is in conspiracy with the Western powers) then you should bring it up with Rupert Murdoch and his kind. What has that got to do with me (or this blog-site).
Am I mistaken? Your statements seems to suggest a conspiracy between Western media and Christianity against Islam also. If that is what you mean, then you make me laugh.
My thoughts were immediately turned towards what is happening within the Roman Catholic Church presently. (You read the newspapers, I hope) Is the media now going after the Vatican and the Pope? ( I am not Roman Catholic.)
Often, the newspapers seem to be chasing after truth. At other times some newspapers seem to be chasing after money only. Surely you do not need me to elaborate. The idea of a conspiracy between Christianity and the media against Islam is a good joke.
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
Your comments to my post proved how shallow is your view on certain matters. You did not learn or investigate deep enough about the things you want to say, but just being impulsive.
The conflict between middle east and Western countries are political, but turned religious as the two affected domains belongs to Christianity and Islam. The West are spreading propagandas about Islamic terrorism to justify their invasion, such it triggers the emotional conflicts among the affected parties world wide.
So much of the Western propagandas about Islam, had influenced the Christian majority into adopting the wrong views about the entire Islam. I do not want to go ito this details, suggest you read up the true history 40 or 50 years back about West and Middle East.
———————————————————–
Sonlight’s reply: The weakness of what you say (as I see it) is the fact that the ex-Muslims also know the context of those ” common verses” or what ever verses those ex-Muslim (some of whom were Imams or lecturers in Islam at Islamic University e.g. Mark Gabriel) quoted (whether they were talking about terrorism or something else); and still they left Islam.
You may take their testimonies as true, if you’d choose to believe them. For what ever reasons they left Islam, they can be right or wrong. So my concern here is, why choose to believe them or use them to support your beliefs? Why not ascertain the truth yourself? Or you are so used to believe unauthenticate proofs or evidences like your bible, that you close your heart and mind from seeking the actual truth by going through the original sources, ie Quran. Just prove that you are a coward.
BTW, if you choose to justify your claims and accusations on Islam falsehood based on these ppl, then what about the many converts from Christianity to Islam? Can I based on these factors to prove Christianity false?
I reiterate my points here, take out your bible and I take my Quran. Post whatever truth from your bible and I’ll prove mine. There are 1001 reasons and evidences that I can prove that your Trinity beliefs are flawed.
———————————————————–
For that God has never departed or isolated from the world.
Allah is not veiled , it is you that are veiled from seeing Him.
If there was anything veiling Him what veil would cover Him.
If he was covered, His existence would be contained.
If something contains something else, it overpowers it.
But He is the Conqueror, overcoming His slaves.
Trinity is utter rubbish! Jesus had long departed and left this world hence he’s NOT GOD.
Peace
Islam is Truth
Zaid, you are the real desperado in your misguided to push islam and its so-called ‘truth’, konon, hahahaha!
Refer now to your missionary claim that Muhd ‘split the moon’, according to the hadiths!
IF- there EVER was such a ‘splitting of the moon’ and whatever you may fantasise about its ‘re-sealing’, you better come up with corroborating proofs that there were climatic and meteorological CONSEQUENCES in the global Hemisphere in the time when your prophet lived!
Since the moon’s gravitational pull controls the oceans’ waves and the weather world-wide, were there ANY REPORTS in the zaman of nabi islam itu tentang tsunamis, typhoons, world-wide floodings and macam2 malapetaka seperti itu??
If you read about the world history at the relevant time – there were no such things happening! So, the cerita2 dalam hadith about muhd split the moon, konon, are all just KARUT BELAKA! Falsehoods and empty words to try and impress non-muslims that muhd did some miracles, just like Jesus Christ did.
UNFORTUNATELY for muhd, he did no miracle that can be compared to what Jesus Christ did in His lifetime – healing the sick, raising the dead, calming the storms, feeding thousands of hungry people, changing water into wine, etc…!
In fact, some muslim ilmuwan deny that muhd did ANY miracle at all! They claim that the only miracle he did was to bawa quran into the world, itu saja!
So, confusion reigns dalam dunia islam, when you guys try to convince us about the so-called greatness of muhd in the area of miracle-working.
Its a sham, Zaid. islam and muhammad have absolutely NOTHING to offer the world, whether yesterday, today OR tomorrow!
Hamzah.
Yo Zaid, kindly don’t make a greater fool yourself than what you have already done..!! Its so LUCU SEKALILAH.
Your posts above, trying to say that Muhamad coming from the Arabs means he is in the Deuteronomy 18 prophecy from the Bible, is pure hogwash to say the least..:!!
What does the text say, Deut 18 : 15, 18 :
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me
from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.
…
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers;
I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
Israelites are called one another’s brethren in this very book of Deuteronomy, e.g., in Deuteronomy chapters 3:18; 15:7; 17:15; 24:14. In ch. 17:15 we have an exactly parallel passage in reference to the appointment of a king:
“one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee. ”
Most, if not all, the kingdoms of Europe are ruled by kings who belong to families which are or were originally foreign: but in all history we never hear of the Israelites appointing over themselves a foreigner as king. They should have gone to the Ishmaelites/Arabs for their kings, IF the Muslim explanation of “from among their brethren” in Deut. 18:18 is correct.
However, the nation of Israel has TWELVE tribes who all descended from the loins of Jacob / Yacob. He had 12 sons, and it was from his sons -ALL BROTHERS to each other, that the promise and the prophecy of Deut.18:18 is fulfilled. The brethren in Israel from the twelve tribes never saw anyone else outside their circle as their so-called ‘brethren. (only the desperate muslims who want muhd to fulfill this prophecy desperately clutch at straws!).
The Israelite brethren did not do so, because they understood their own language. Who, at the present day among Muslims, if told to summon one of his “brethren” to receive some important post, would conclude that members of his own family were excluded, and that he must find a man whose ancestors had, hundreds of years before, been kindred to his own? Moreover, the Taurat clearly says that no prophet was to be expected from Ishmael, for God’s covenant was made with Isaac, not with him (Gen. 17:18-21; 21:10-12).
Zaid and Syukri, amateur missionaries down here, actually there are significant NO similarities between your muhammad and Patriach Moses (Musa) in the Old Testament.
The clear and indisputable proofs have already been clearly set out in Bahasa Melayu, here :
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bahasa/RencanaBF/MusaMuhdJelasBerbeda.html
Go and study with a slightly more opened mind, before throwing up more baseless polemics over here!
dengan semua perbandingan ini, kita dapat melihat betapa ketara bezanya Nabi Muhammad daripada Nabi Musa. Ini sesungguhnya membuktikan umat Islam yang cuba mencari kemiripan antara Musa dan Muhammad hanya melakukannya kerana mereka sudah terdesak untuk mengesahkan ‘kerasulan’ nabi Muhammad konon, melalui rujukan-rujukan dari Kitab Taurat. Jadi, di manakah ‘pengesahan’ dan kemiripan itu ? LANGSUNG TIDAK ADA SAMA SEKALI!
Contohnya, Nabi Musa, walau pun beliau hidup dalam keadaan serba lengkap dan mewah dalam Istana Firaun, dia dibesarkan oleh ibu kandungnya sendiri,. Nabi Muhammad sudah jelas TIDAK SEPERTI BEGITU. Dia kehilangan kedua-dua ibu-bapanya satu persatu semasa dia masih kanak-kanak kecil lagi.
Pendidikan dan pembelajaran Nabi Musa itu cukup lengkap dan sempurna kerana baginda dibesarkan sebagai anak kepada tuan Puteri Firaun di dalam Istana Mesir. Nabi Muhammad itu, SEBALIKNYA seorang yang ummi, yaitu seorang yang dikira tidak berpendidikan. Ini satu lagi perbedaan yang jelas ketara!
Taurat DAN Quran kedua-duanya mengajar Nabi Musa telah melakukan banyak sekali keajaiban dan mukjizat yang cukup hebat di muka umum. Surah 7/128-134, 138. Hasilnya Bani Israil dapat keluar daripada cengkaman zalim Firaun itu. Sebaliknya, Muhammad itu TIDAK! Dia tidak melakukan satu pun keajaiban mukjizat di muka umum atau di khalayak ramai menurut al-Quran! Sebaliknya al-Quran sendiri mengakui bahawa Muhammad tiada bermukjizat seumpama Nabi Musa :
“Setelah rasul datang kepada mereka, mereka berkata: ’Mengapa TIDAK DIBERIKAN KEPADA MUHAMMAD SEUMPAMA YANG DIBERIKAN KEPADA NABI MUSA (YAKNI TANDA-TANDA MUKJIZAT)?’ .. Katakanlah ya Muhammad – Maka kamu tunjukkanlah sebuah Kitab dari Allah..” (‘quran’lah itu)
SURAH 28/48-49
Nas di atas menunjukkan Quran sendiri mengajar tentang ketidak-miripan Muhammad dengan Musa dalam perkara pembuatan keajaiban-keajaiban dan mukjizat yang hebat di khalayak ramai. Inilah lagi perbedaan yang jelas ketara di antara Musa dan Muhammad!
Jadi siapakah yang dirujuki oleh nubuat di dalam Kitab Taurat itu :
“Seorang Nabi dari tengah-tengahmu, dari antara saudara-saudara kamu, sama seperti aku (yakni NABI MUSA), akan dibangkitkan bagimu oleh Tuhan Allahmu; dialah yang harus kamu dengarkan..seorang Nabi akan Ku bangkitkan bagi mereka dari antara saudara mereka; seperti engkau (Nabi Musa) ini; Aku akan menaruh firman-ku dalam mulutnya, dan dia akan mengatakan kepada mereka segala yang Ku perintahkan kepadanya.”
Ulangan 18: 15, 18
Jelas sekali dia bukanlah Muhammad! Oleh kerana dia bukan dari salah satu daripada dua belas suku saudara Bani Israel. Inilah nama-nama dua-belas suku sanak-saudara Bani Israel, yakni mengikut 12 anak lelaki Yakub :
“Reuben, Simeon, LEVI, Issachar, JUDAH, Zebulun, Yusuf, Benyamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad dan Asyer”
Kejadian 35: 23-26
Sebaliknya pula, Isa Al-Masih itu adalah dari suku JUDAH (Matius 1: 1-2) yaitu saudara dengan LEVI, dan Levi adalah leluhur kepada Nabi Musa (lihat Carta di atas). Jadi, jelaslah Sayyidina Isa al-Masih adalah saudara kepada Nabi Musa kerana pertalian mereka sesama sendiri melalui dua-belas Suku Bani Israel!
Sebaliknya, Muhammad bukanlah dari keturunan salah satu pun daripada dua-belas suku Bani Israel itu. Dia adalah seorang non-Jew atau non-Yahudi. Oleh itu beliau tidak layak sekalipun berhak tuntut pertalian saudara dengan Nabi Musa!
Sayidina Isa al-Masih, sebaliknya, telah berkata bahawa semua nubuat di dalam Taurat, Zabur dan Tulisan-tulisan Nabi merujuk kepada Baginda sendiri, dan TIDAK kepada mana-mana orang lain.
“Isa berkata kepada mereka: ‘Inilah perkataan-Ku, yang telah Ku katakan kepadamu ketika Aku masih bersama-sama dengan kamu, yakni bahawa HARUS DIGENAPI SEMUA YANG ADA TERTULIS TENTANG AKU (YAITU ISA) dalam Kitab Taurat Musa, dan Kitab nabi-nabi dan Kitab Zabur. Lalu Isa membuka fikiran mereka, sehingga mereka mengerti Kitab Suci.
Kata-Nya kepada mereka :
“Ada tertulis demikian: Al-Masih harus menderita dan bangkit dari antara orang mati pada hari yang ketiga, dan lagi: dalam nama-Nya berita tentang pertaubatan dan pengampunan dosa harus disampaikan KEPADA SEGALA BANGSA, mulai dari Yerusalam.
Kamu adalah saksi-saksi dari semuanya ini.”
Lukas 24 ayat 44 – 48
Para Hawariyyun dan pengikut-pengikut Al-Masih Isa pun telah menyahut perintah Baginda dengan sebulat hati dan segenap jiwa mereka. Mereka telah benar-benar menyedari SIAPAKAH itu yang telah Allah janjikan melalui Nubuat Musa itu dalam Ulangan 18, serta apakah PERANANNYA AL-MASIH ITU. Adakah mereka pernah menunggu dan berharap kedatangan kononnya satu lagi rasul yang akan datang selepas Isa Al-Masih bernama ‘Muhammad’? Tidak sama sekali. Kerana sejak permulaan dan dari awal-awal lagi, Isa Al-Masih tidak pernah mengajari mereka tentang teori itu! Lebih-lebih lagi, BAGI SEMUA para Hawariyyun dan murid-murid Sayyidina Isa, nubuat agung dari Kitab Taurat itu yakni dari Ulangan 18: 15 dan 18 itu, DENGAN LAZIMNYA MEREKA TELAH MERUJUKKAN NUBUAT INI KEPADA ISA AL-MASIH dan TIDAK PERNAH kepada mana-mana individu lain.
Kajilah kata-kata khutbah Hawariyyun Shamoun Petrus yang diucapkannya di Serambi Sulaiman dalam Baitullah, Yerusalem, sesudah Kebangkitan rabbinya Al-Masih Isa kembali ke alam jannah :
“Bukankah telah dikatakan Musa sesungguhnya kepada nenek moyang kita,
‘Allah Tuhanmu akan membangkitkan untukmu seorang Nabi sepertiku
Dari kalangan saudara-saudaramu.
Dengarlah segala kata-Nya kepadamu dalam semua hal.
Setiap jiwa yang tidak mendengar kata Nabi itu akan dibinasakan sama sekali dari kalangan kaumnya.’
Ya, semua nabi, dari Samuel dan selepasnya, semua yang telah bersuara, juga telah bernubuat tentang zaman ini.
Kamu adalah anak cucu nabi-nabi itu, dan waris perjanjian yang dibuat Allah dengan nenek moyang kita melalui firman-Nya kepada Ibrahim,
‘Dalam benihmu (Ibrahim) semua kaum di dunia akan diberkati.’
Pertama sekali kepada kamu, Tuhan telah membangkitkan Al-Masih-Nya, Sayyidina Isa, dan menghantar-Nya untuk
memberkatimu dengan memalingkan kamu sekalian daripada segala kejahatanmu.”
Kisah Rasul-Rasul 3 : 22 – 26
Demikianlah bunyinya khutbah Petrus kepada saudara-maranya umat Yahudi di Baitullah di BaitulMaqddis. Petikan beliau dari Kitab Taurat Musa adalah dari Ulangan 18 : 15 dan 18. Rujukannya nubuat ini tidak lain dan tidak bukan dirujukkan Petrus kepada satu-satunya Rabbinya yakni Isa Al-Masih.
Rasul Petrus bukanlah seorang sahaja yang telah merujuk kepada nubuat ini! Seorang lagi dari para hawariyyun Al-Masih Isa – Stephanus, juga telah memetik daripada nubuat yang SAMA dari Ulangan 18. Kata-kata beliau telah termaktub di dalam Kitab Suci Injil seperti berikut:
Musa memimpin orang Israel keluar dari Mesir setelah melakukan pelbagai mukjizat dan keajaiban di Mesir, di Laut Merah
dan kemudian di tanah belantara selama empat puluh tahun.
Musa inilah yang berkata kepada bangsa Israel,
‘Allah akan mengutus seorang Nabi kepadamu,
Sebagaimana Dia telah mengutuskan dari kalangan bangsamu.
Dengarlah kata-Nya.’
Musa inilah yang bersama-sama bangsa Israel berhimpun di tanah belantara.
Dia di sana berserta nenek moyang kita dan malaikat yang berkata-kata kepadanya di Gunung Sinai.
Dialah yang menerima firman hidup, untuk disampaikan kepada kita.
Kisah Para Rasul 7 : 36 – 38
Petikan di atas adalah sebahagian daripada ucapan pembelaan diri Stephanus apabila beliau telah dituduh oleh Imam Besar agama Yahudi yang mendakwakan pengikut-pengikut Isa Al-Masih dan menuduh bahawa Isa Al-Masih itu “Akan merubahkan tempat suci di Yerusalem dan mengubah adat istiadat orang-orang Yahudi” (Kisah Para Rasul 6 : 14-15).
Sesudah memberi ucapan pembelaannya di depan majlis agama dan Imam-imam besar Yahudi, Stephanus telah menyempurnakan kesaksiannya kepada Rabbinya Isa, dengan mengorbankan nyawa beliau sebagai syahid pertama dalam agama Kristian.
Nah, sudah menjadi amat jelaslah umat Kristian dan Yahudi sudah pun tahu tentang nubuat Ulangan 18:15 dan 18 itu. Dan semua murid-murid Al-Masih Isa sudah mengakui dan mengisytiharkan bahawa Isa Al-Masihlah yang sewajarnya disebut-sebutkan dan yang dinubuatkan di dalam nubuat Ulangan 18 : 15 dan 18 itu lebih daripada LIMA ABAD SEBELUM TIMBULNYA Muhammad nabi Islam.
Umat Kristian sudah pun kenal, tahu dan mengakui SIAPAKAH NABI YANG DINUBUATKAN ITU dari Ulangan 18, dan Baginda ialah tidak lain tidak bukan Isa Al-Masih sendiri, dan hakikat ini sudah termeterai dan termaktub dalam Kitab Suci Injil lebih daripada LIMA KURUN SEBELUM MUNCULNYA dan lahirnya Muhammad bin Abdullah, sebagaimana betapa jelas Carta Perbandingan di atas sudah memaparkan!
Hanya segelintir umat Muslim yang sudah terdesak, dan masih sanggup menyalah-tafsirkan Nas firman Allah dari Ulangan 18 ini dan cuba merujukinya kepada Muhammad nabi Islam. Tetapi sudah terbuktilah tindakan terdesak mereka itu adalah (i) suatu salah tafsiran yang ketara dan (ii) juga amat buta kepada fakta-fakta sejarah serta (iii) tidak sekali pun memihak kepada Kebenaran !
Selain daripada itu, umat Kristian keberatan untuk menerima Muhammad sebagai seorang ‘rasul’ kerana (iv) Sayyidina Isa Al-Masih tidak pernah bernubuat tentangnya atau mengajarinya! Jika Baginda ada mengajari tentang Muhammad, orang Nasrani Kristian akan datang beramai-ramai dan mempercayai ajaran Muhammad secara sukarela. Tetapi, kepada SEMUA PARA Sahabat Sayyidina Isa, Murid-murid, para pengikutnya DAN Para Hawariyyun sendiri teori ini amatlah JANGGAL KEPADA MEREKA SEMUA, dan tuntutan ini yang hanya timbul lebih daripada LIMA KURUN -YAITU LEBIH 600 tahun KEMUDIAN; adalah suatu penyelewengan yang tidak dapat masuk akal langsung bagi semua pengikut-pengikut Isa al-Masih yang tidak pernah mengajari teori itu sekalipun PADA ZAMAN BAGINDA! Dan (v) Musa dan Kitab Taurat yang sejati juga tidak bernubuat tentang kedatangan Muhammad. Jikalau ada, umat Yahudi akan berpusu-pusu dan berduyun-duyun memeluk ajaran yang dipelopori Muhammad. Tetapi apa yang sebenarnya telah terjadi adalah sebaliknya!
Open your blinded eyes, muslim friends, lest you be cast into eternal fire at the end of your rope! Before it is too late for you all.
Hamzah,
So can you make up your mind. Is Jesus a prophet or God? Jesus was sent not to abolish but enforce Moses law. Isn’t it supposed that Jesus should have establish his own Law since He is God?
Christians tried to fit Jesus into the prophecies made by other prophets with the Deut: 18:18 verse hence playing the “roti prata” game, so that Jesus can be on both sides, a prophet as well as God.
So Jesus was foretold to be that prophet alias God, but no one foretold that God will be born. Not even any of the prophets had worship Jesus or command anyone to worship Jesus once Jesus was born. Strangely, God(Jesus) still pray to God(Father). How nonsensical.
Dramatically, Jesus (God) turned into unwilling victim when he lamented “God, god why have you forsaken me” when near his “death”. God died?
Talking about miracles, I don’t see a reason that such concludes Jesus as God, since Moses a prophet also perform miracles. You can deny that Muhammad pbuh never had any miracle, but all you can produce are just words from the bible saying Jesus did it. If you apply the same standard as your verdict on Quran, Bible is also a book written by man, so how could you confirm such miracles happened? Since you don’t even know who wrote the bible?
You can post a long story to discredit Quran and try to post the “Truth” in your bible. However your Trinity beliefs are highly illogical and a great insult to God.
God is beyond any comprehension, description or imagination. God is not limited by space and time. God is Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. How do these apply to Jesus??
Please explain.
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Nak Jumpa Tuhan?
Kenal dirimu rata-rata, akan kamu kenal Tuhan yg nyata.
Serupa tapi tak sama, Dia di dalam Aku dan Aku di dalam Dia.
Dekat tak bersentuh, jauh tak bersempadan.
Dalam terang Dia sembunyi, mengadakan hijab dengan sesuatu yang tiada Wujud.
Islam is Truth
Kadang kadang kita perlu juga ada occasional clown dalam diskusi ini. Hamzah did a good job with his spastic joke and ‘professional’ cut and paste skill. Roti Prata game, what a good expression to explain Trinity. Hamzah, you failed to convince us who wrote the Bible before. Can you do know? Please don’t deviate this time.
Syukri Al Islam
Hamzah said: Open your blinded eyes, muslim friends, lest you be cast into eternal fire at the end of your rope! Before it is too late for you all.
Syukri reply: How can you be sure that Muslims will be casted into eternal fire if you don’t even dare to answer to my challenge of mubahalah? Let’s us wish to our respective god to expedite our death so see who will be in the hellfire.
2:94 Say: “If the Paradise, with God, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then seek ye for death, if ye are sincere.”
2:95 BUT they will never seek for death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. and Allah is well-acquainted with the wrongdoers.
Syukri Al Islam
To Syukri
I notice Muslims like to say that the message of the Bible has been lost or changed. They suggest this because of various reasons (e.g Muslims says: “Look, Christians claim to be certain of who wrote some books of the Bible but not all).
My question to you is : When do you think the message of the Bible was changed? Is it 1) Before the time Muhammad OR 2) During the time of Muhammad OR 3) After the time of Muhammad? (Friendly hint: This is a trick question)
Firstly, if you say 1) Before Muhammad; then why does the Quran say:”Quran 21:7 -”Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men … If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7).
(Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Answer/corrupt.html
The point, as I understand it, is that the authentic Gospel (Injil) and Torah (Taurat) were present
during the time of Muhammad. That is why, according to the Quran, Allah can say :… ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7). Who are those who possess the message DURING THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD that Muhammad can ask?
The MESSAGE was still there at the time of Muhammad. That is what the Quran seems to suggest.
(I do not think Muslims will accept option number 2: – i.e. God’s message being corrupted when Islam’s prophet was still around.)
If you should chose option 3, I shall reply later, God willing.
Just wanting to share the problems Muslims propagandist will run into when they say that the Bible message has been lost or changed.
I wish to hear a definite answer from you. No deviation, please.
Looking forward to your reply.
peace… out
Sonlight quoted:
Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
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Read the true context from Quran. Allah was mentioning about the Jews who always broke their promise to obey God each time when God sent them a messenger, that Allah had cursed them for their continuous disobedience and trangressions.
The Jews knew very well in their knowledge about the coming of Muhammad pbuh, but they denied him when the truth came, just like what they did to the other line of prophets before Muhammad pbuh.
Didn’t you ponder why lines of prophets were sent to the Jews? If they had remained obedient, God wouldn’t have to send so many prophets to keep reminding and guiding them. It just proved how evil and corrupted they are.
The verse wasn’t referring to Quran confirming the bible during Muhamad pbuh time as you claimed.
Read below
Show me where is the context that commands Muslim to refer to your bible or torah for confirmation?
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Quran- Chapter 2- verse 87- 90
..And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay? (87)
And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe. (88)
And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession – though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved – and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. (89)
Evil is that for which they sell their souls: that they should disbelieve in that which Allah hath revealed, grudging that Allah should reveal of His bounty unto whom He will of His bondmen. They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom. (90)
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I can confirm the arabic text to you and prove that it is not like what your corrupted Sam Shamoun translated.
Christians are desperados. Trinity is flawed. You guys had fallen into the Jews/Israelites deceptions and arrogance that they are God’s chosen ones.
Peace
Sonlight quoted:
ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7). Who are those who possess the message DURING THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD that Muhammad can ask?
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My reply (I romanized the Arabic text for your easier reference)
Quran 21:7
Wa maa arsalna qablaka illa rijaalun nuuhi ilaihim fas ‘aluu AHLAL DZIKRII in kuntum laa ta’lamuun. (7) Wa maa ja’alnaahum jasadan laa ya’ kuluunnat tho ‘aama wamaa kaanuu khalidiin (8)
And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We revealed, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures - the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know. (7) And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that ate not food, nor were they immortals, (8)
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Note in the Quranic text, it mentions “Ahlal dzikri”, referring to those who are truly reminded and remain obedient to God. Ahlal- means proficient, Dzikri – means spiritually reminded.
*** Notice it is only added in the translations { Scriptures – the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)} intended by the translators for better understanding.
Indeed during Muhammad’s time, there were still honest Jewish minorities who possess knowledge and spiritually obedient to the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel. It isn’t referring to the already corrupted written books of the New and Old testament at that time which never came or been authenticated by Jesus or prophets before him, yet written by anonymous authors.
In the verse, God emphasizes that ALL His messengers are pure human with bodies that require food. It is a denial that the prophets were immortals, angels or half God (Jesus). So how could this be a confirmation to your FLAWED Trinity beliefs??
Further in the Surah, God denies the unbelievers (Christians) claims that God has taken unto Him a wife or SON.
Quran 21: 17-18 says:
Had We intended to take a pastime (i.e. a wife or a son), We could surely have taken it from Us, if We were going to do (that). (17) Nay, We fling (send down) the truth (this Qur’ân) against the falsehood (disbelief), so it destroys it, and behold, it (falsehood) is vanished. And woe to you for that (lie) which you ascribe (to Allâh by uttering that Allâh has a wife and a son). (18)
So please don’ t apply your similar practice of quoting or extracting words or verses out of context like what you are doing to your bible to support your flawed beliefs.
Peace
Islam is Truth
Peace
Islam is truth
Abdullah Ibn Salaam , 1st Jewish Rabbi Convert to Islam .1H.
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Abdullah Ibn Salam or Al Hussain Ibn Salam was a rabbi in city of Yathrib or Medina before the coming of Pro Muhammad PBUh but he was very poius and devoted rabbi of his time that he was the most trustworthy man for his jewish ppl in Medina . He was very devoted to studying Torah that he had read about the prophecy of Muhammad PBuh in the Torah . He divided his time into three ; One Third he spent his time in teaching and preaching in the temple , one third he spent in taking care of his farm and the other third he spent time in studing the Torah .
He narrated that ” When I heart the appreance of the Messenger of Allah , I tried to investigate his name , linage, the place of appearance in our given scripture . It was realised that Pro Muhammad Pbuh was the person mentioned in the prophecies in the scriptures. I tried to keep quiet until the arrival of the Prophet in Medina” .
“When Prophet Muhammad Pbuh arrived in Quba , I climbed a palm tree and I watch the Prophet approaching the city of Medina . I rejoice with happiness that my prayer had been answered . Allah is the greastest” .
My aunt was suprised and said ” had you heard about the coming of prophet Moses son of Imraan you would not have done more that what you just did? ” .I said in reply ” Aunt , he (Prophet Muhammad Pbh) is a brother to Moses and is preaching the same message ” She asked ; “Is he the prophet your rabbis have been telling you ?” Yes I said .
” I rushed to see the prophet and struggle through the crowds in order to meet him . The First word I heard from him ( Prophet Muhammad PBUh) ; ” O people greet each other , feed the hungry , pray while others are asleep and you will peacefully enter paradize .”
“I continued to scrutinize his features and his actions , I convinced that he was not a lair ” . I came to him and declared ” There is no worthy of worship except Allah and I bear witness you Muhammad Pbuh the messeger Of Allah”.
He Prophet Muhammd Pbuh looked at me and said ” What is your name ? ” , I said ” I am Hussain Ibn Salam ” and he continued and said ” But Abdullah Ibn Salam ” . By Allah , I never like to be called except with the name Abdullah Ibn Salam .
I went home told my wife , Children and my aunt Khalidah about prophet Muhammad Pbuh and all of them embraced Islam on the spot . But I kept our conversion a secret from other Jews.
One day I went to Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and asked him to hide me in a room and I asked him to invite leaders of all the Jewish clans and asked them what they think about me . Prophet Muhammad Pbuh had invited them and told them about Islam. They (jews) argued against Prophet Muhammad and they rejected him completely .
Prophet asked the questions about me . All of them said so and so is our rabbi , he is son of our master and our knowledgable scholar . Prophet Muhammad Pbuh continued and said ” What happened if so and so had converted to Islam ? . They reply ” By Allah , may Allah forbid him from converting to Islam . He would not do that “.
In the midst of the conversion , I come out and Declared infront of them “There is no worthy of worship except Allah and Pro Muhammad is the Messeger of Allah ” . and said to them further , ” have fear in Allah , accept his teaching and you find his name and his descriptions in the Torah ” . They replied ” O you so and so , you are the lair , worst son of the worst and you are the most ignorant “. On that day onwards , they continued to farbicate and slander Abdullah Ibn Salam .
Abullah Ibn Salam continued and devoted his life to Islam and teaching of Islam . He was a well known Islamic scholars and the first ex rabbi to preach Islam and his teaching.
Peace
To Zaid
You say:”I can confirm the arabic text to you and prove that it is not like what your corrupted Sam Shamoun translated.” – zaid, Apr 22nd, 2010 at 6:18 pm.
From my reading, I believe the Christian writer did not do the translation but is just quoting the Yusof Ali translation of the Quran.
e.g. – from the Christian article:”Quran 21:7 -”Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men … If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.”
Compare the above with:
Surah 21:7. Before thee, also, the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message. – The Meanings Of The Holy Qur’an, by Abdullah Yusufali.
I suppose, now, you want to find fault with the Yusof Ali translation.
____________________________
Also you say: “The Jews knew very well in their knowledge about the coming of Muhammad pbuh, but they denied him when the truth came, just like what they did to the other line of prophets before Muhammad pbuh.
Didn’t you ponder why lines of prophets were sent to the Jews? If they had remained obedient, God wouldn’t have to send so many prophets to keep reminding and guiding them….”
Your statement:”"The Jews knew very well in their knowledge about the coming of Muhammad pbuh, but they denied him when the truth came”… is another fine example of deluding yourself into believing nonsensical Islamic propaganda. (Question: How, in your opinion, did the Jews know?)
Also you ask:”Didn’t you ponder why lines of prophets were sent to the Jews?”
Whatever reason you may give, you yourself admit that the prophets were sent to the Jews( and also admitted earlier that all the prophets were Jews before Muhammad.)
Strangely, after admitting that all the earlier prophets (who were Jews) were sent to the Jews you can talk about the ” arrogance that they (the Jews) are God’s chosen ones.”
Your own words indicate that the Jews are in some way special. You are one funny fellow.
Sonlight quoted:
From my reading, I believe the Christian writer did not do the translation but is just quoting the Yusof Ali translation of the Quran.
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My reply
Quran 21:7
Wa maa arsalna qablaka illa rijaalun nuuhi ilaihim fas ‘aluu AHLAL DZIKRII in kuntum laa ta’lamuun. (7) Wa maa ja’alnaahum jasadan laa ya’ kuluunnat tho ‘aama wamaa kaanuu khalidiin (8)
This is the arabic text from Quran. Point to me where in the verse mentioned “Injeel” and “Torah”? It says “Ahlal Dzikri”. which are those who proficiently remember or reminded spiritually. It never says refer to YOUR INJEEL OR BOOKS!
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You continuously avoid responding in a total and rational manner. Whoever the Translator may be, I’ve beckon you to read the context of the verse which I have shown you. You are simply extracting the phrase which “sounds” like what you want it to be, but do not read the chapter to understand what it is about. Even when I have shown you, you still tried to deny the truth. It is the same when you try to prove your bible; BY QUOTING VERSES OUT OF CONTEXT!
I ask you again, why did God had to sent so may prophets to the Jews? This is nothing about Jews being special. In the context of the Quran verse you quoted, God reprimanded the Jews time and again. Reminder after reminder had to be sent to them, but they still remain disobedient and arrogant.
USE YOUR LOGICAL THINKING TO JUDGE; GOD NEED NOT SENT SO MANY MESSENGERS TO REMIND AND GUIDE THEM, IF THEY HAD ABIDE AND REMAINED OBEDIENT TO GOD.! GOD DID NOT SEND LINE OF MESSENGERS TO THEM JUST TO PROVE THEY ARE SPECIAL!! DON’T YOU AGREE?
Read carefully:
God cursed and reprimanded the Jews due to the continuous trangressions and disobedience. Thew slew and persecuted the messengers that were sent to them, after each time promising to God that they will obey God.
Quran- Chapter 2- verse 87- 90
…Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay? (87)
And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe. (88)
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This is the verse you misquoted. It is teling about The Jews who still repeated their trangressions and disobedience and again denying the truth when God sent another messenger to them .ie, Muhammad pbuh.
Quran says, The Jews knew the Truth of Muhammad being the last messenger confirming to their knowledge as in their Torah, but they denied it due to their arrogance.
…And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession – though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved – and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. (89)
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You are so much used to reading and interpreting phrases rather than the complete story like your bible. You are just deluding yourself in your everlasting conjectures.
Wake up and face the real truth, with you logical thinking not hallucination.
Islam is truth.
Peace
Sonlight quoted:
From my reading, I believe the Christian writer did not do the translation but is just quoting the Yusof Ali translation of the Quran.
e.g. – from the Christian article:”Quran 21:7 -”Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men … If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.”
Compare the above with:
Surah 21:7. Before thee, also, the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message. – The Meanings Of The Holy Qur’an, by Abdullah Yusufali.
I suppose, now, you want to find fault with the Yusof Ali translation.
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My Advice:
You can’t understand Quran just by mere translations, which are subjected to the translators’ interpretation. You have to understand arabic to know what is exactly written.
Jews are stubborn lots from the past till now, but you guys juz never take heed that you have fallen for their fallacies.
Wake up and embrace Islam.
Peace
Sonlight says:
Strangely, after admitting that all the earlier prophets (who were Jews) were sent to the Jews you can talk about the ” arrogance that they (the Jews) are God’s chosen ones.”
Your own words indicate that the Jews are in some way special. You are one funny fellow.
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In the eyes of God, NO race or gender is above the others, but each will be judged fairly in the presence of God.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh said in a hadith:
Innallaha laa yanzuru ila suwarikum wa amwalikum, walaakinnallah yanzuru ila quluubikum wa a’malikum.
That Allah will not judge based on one’s appearance or possesions, but Allah will judge based on your heart (its pureness and sincerity) and your deeds.
ALL MEN ARE EQUAL! EACH WILL BE JUDGED BY GOD.
Christianity is a Jewish fallacy.
Peace
Islam is Truth
Sonlight says:
Strangely, after admitting that all the earlier prophets (who were Jews) were sent to the Jews you can talk about the ” arrogance that they (the Jews) are God’s chosen ones.”
Your own words indicate that the Jews are in some way special. You are one funny fellow.
_________________________________________________________________________
I want to ask you, to whom the word ‘ Jerusalem’ is referring to?:
Matthew 23: 37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who KILL THE PROPHETS and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39“For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”
Dear Zaid,
Jazakallahu khairan ( may Allah reward you with goodness ) for the decent reply. Unlike those desperado Christians who rely heavily and blindly on Sham Shamoun, you counter them back by using your own clear understanding. This show that Islam is so clear and logical. Unlike roti prata Christianity that has 38,000 way of understanding ( or misunderstanding! ). Thank you.
Salam Bro Syukri,
Truth will always triumph over falsehood. Nothing is clearer and more conscise than Islam. Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of life. In contrast, Christianity fails to guide its ppl to the right path as we look at the Western world, Christian dominating countries. Fornications, nudity, rape, alcoholism and all other social problems are getting out of hand. So what’s the purpose of a religion if it is not able to guide ppl to high moral values and restrain them from their lewd and worldly desires?
They simply fail to understand and extremely ignorant of the purpose why God had created life and the entire universe.
QS 17:82 Al-Isra’
Say: Truth hath come and falsehood hath vanished away. Lo! falsehood is ever bound to vanish. (81)
Islam is the ultimate Truth. Proven as the fastest growing religion in the world today.
Peace
To Syukri
Just a short reply for now.
You say:Syukri,Apr 24th, 2010 at 4:42 pm-”I want to ask you, to whom the word ‘ Jerusalem’ is referring to?
Matthew 23: 37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who KILL THE PROPHETS ….”
Sonlight’s reply: I was expecting someone to bring up this verse even when I pointed out to Zaid that Zaid’s own words seem to indicate that the Jews are special in some way (Sonlight,
Apr 23rd, 2010 at 3:34 am).
Whether Jesus was referring to Jerusalem, the city, or the Jews who were in the city, what we cannot avoid is the fact that Jesus said “… for salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (New International Version).
Whatever the short-comings of the Jews “… salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22
Islam is trying to spread the different message (which I believe is false) that salvation comes through the message delivered by an Arab.
peace…out
Sonlight’s Quoted:
I was expecting someone to bring up this verse even when I pointed out to Zaid that Zaid’s own words seem to indicate that the Jews are special in some way (Sonlight,
Apr 23rd, 2010 at 3:34 am).
My reply:
I can’t see how ppl who always need to be reminded are special. The messengers of God were sent time and time again was because of ONE REASON. THE JEWS NEVER LISTEN! THEY NEVER LEARNT THEIR LESSONS EVEN AFTER SO MANY MESSENGERS WERE SENT TO THEM AS A REMINDER!
Think logically,
Do you regard one who constantly needs to be REMINDED ARE SPECIAL OR CHOSEN ONES? Try apply this in you daily life. You regard your colleague who always need to be reminded with the same message, alert and warnings from your Boss is special or the chosen ones? In my opinion this ppl rather should be the “CONDEMNED” ones instead.That’s why finally the employer decides to assign the task to somebody else since the former assignee(Jews) is hopeless. For this case God has to assign the task to the Arabs, Prophet Muhammad pbuh, since the Jews were a total failure.
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Sonlight quoted:
Whether Jesus was referring to Jerusalem, the city, or the Jews who were in the city, what we cannot avoid is the fact that Jesus said “… for salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (New International Version).
My reply:
There’s no such thing as salvations come from the Jews, or any or any other races even Arabs. Salvations come from each individual, through total submissions to God regardless of genders or races. This is the meaning of Islam. There’s no races or gender who are above the others. Your Christianity is promoting racism. ——————————————————————————————-
Sonlight quoted:
Whatever the short-comings of the Jews “… salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22
Islam is trying to spread the different message (which I believe is false) that salvation comes through the message delivered by an Arab.
My reply:
You have proven the ARROGANCE of the Jews in your bible. Its so much obvious that the authors of your Gospel were from among the Jews. Such proven from the verses you quoted. “Self praise is international disgrace”, such are your “honorable” Jews.
ISLAM TEACHES THAT ALL MEN ARE EQUAL! BE IT THE KING OR THE SLAVES. ALLAH DOES NOT JUDGE BY ONE’S POSITION, RACE, APPEARANCE OR POSSESSIONS. How beautiful is Islam.
Peace
Islam is the way of life.
To Zaid,
I pointed out that Jesus said”… salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NIV)
Your response: zaid, Apr 25th, 2010 at 8:53 pm” Your Christianity is promoting racism….You have proven the ARROGANCE of the Jews in your bible. Its so much obvious that the authors of your Gospel were from among the Jews. Such proven from the verses you quoted. “Self praise is international disgrace”, such are your “honorable” Jews….” -Zaid. (Sonlight’s comment: More anti-Jew propaganda from some Muslims.)
Sonlight’s reply: I chose to quote “… salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NIV) as a short reply. I wanted, as much as, possible for the Bible to speak without me having to give any interpretation (or my ideas -possibly biased you may say). I am not surprised by your negative response. Your words reveal your bias and not the arrogance of the Jews.
Regarding God’s plan of salvation; as I understand it, it was God’s decision to involve the Jews in His plan to save the world.( You cannot run away from the fact that the prophets, who were Jews , were sent to Jews. Does not even the Quran indicate that? ). So it was God’s CHOICE, out of God’s own free will. It was not because of any merit on the part of the Jews. The term that you quoted “CHOSEN ONES” indicates that God made a choice and does not imply that the Jews were better in some way than others.
When Jesus (a Jew) died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sins of the world, salvation has come from a Jew. (Salvation applies only to those who believe).
John 3:16-18 “16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. -NIV
Peace…out
My point is, if Jews refused to accept prophets from them,( including Jesus ), what prevented them to refused a prophet from Arab? This show their sheer arrogance.
Salvation from Jew. Ello?, who prosecuted Jews the most if not the Christian themselves? Who expulsed them from England, Spain, France and butchered them in Germany? Muslim?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism
Muslim antisemiticism is understandable ( even though Arab also semitic people ) but Christian antisemiticism??? How contradict with ” Salvation from Jews” as claimed by poor desperate sonlight.
Wikipedia states:
In the Middle Ages Antisemitism in Europe was religious. Though not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, have held the Jewish people collectively responsible for killing Jesus, a practice originated by Melito of Sardis. As stated in the Boston College Guide to Passion Plays, “Over the course of time, Christians began to accept… that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for killing Jesus. According to this interpretation, both the Jews present at Jesus Christ’s death and the Jewish people collectively and for all time, have committed the sin of deicide, or God-killing. For 1900 years of Christian-Jewish history, the charge of deicide has led to hatred, violence against and murder of Jews in Europe and America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews
If Christians would recognize that ‘salvation come from Jew’, they would have been protecting Jews, not persecuting them.
Anyway, this show the flip flop side of Christianity ( or Roti prata ). Pity you. Please wake up before it too late.
Syukri
Hi Sonlight,
“Sonlight’s comment: More anti-Jew propaganda from some Muslims.)”
My reply:
Pls stop your blind accusations when you have no other reasons to deny. Didn’t I mention in God’s eyes “ALL MEN ARE EQUAL?” Who is Anti-Jews here?
You are trying to deviate my points that God has proven the Jews to be stubborn lots. The prophets were not sent to please the Jews but served as REMINDER to them to obey God, but they still remained in their strayed path.
Like you’ve mentioned God has “Chosen” lines of prophets from among Jews, is it an obligation to God to remain so? Since the Jews took no heed, why isn’t it possible for God to assign a prophet from a Non Jew instead.
Jews denial of a prophet from Non Jew is the real arrogance.
Since many Jewish prophets themselves were not spared, what’s more if a prophet is assigned from Non Jews. Just imagine what will be the Jews reactions?
Isn’t God has the ultimate authority to determine what God wills?
Wake up Sonlight.
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Syukri
You say:Syukri
Apr 29th, 2010 at 2:32 am – “My point is, if Jews refused to accept prophets from them,( including Jesus ), what prevented them to refused a prophet from Arab? This show their sheer arrogance.
Salvation from Jew. Ello?, who prosecuted Jews the most if not the Christian themselves?……. How contradict with Salvation from Jews” as claimed by poor desperate sonlight.” – Syukri
I wonder if this is part of Islamic propaganda to say that the Jews are so bad because they rejected all of God’s holy prophets.
The Bible records that the Jews listened to the prophets (e.g. like Moses). (I am presently reading about the Jews working with the prophet Nehemiah to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.) No doubt some prophets were treated badly. (John the Baptist had his head cut off).
I suggest to you that the Jews (and myself, a Christian) reject the Arab who Muslims claim is a prophet because we believe he (Muhammad) is not a prophet. It has nothing to do with arrogance. It is about using our heads and making a decision.
Christians examine the evidence/claims that Muhammad is a prophet but Christians find that he has failed the test.
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world,” (1 John 4:1). – from Zaid’s earlier comments.
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“Salvation from Jew. Ello?, who prosecuted Jews the most if not the Christian themselves?……. How contradict with Salvation from Jews” as claimed by poor desperate sonlight.” – Syukri
Sonlight’s reply: You begin with the phrase- “who prosecuted Jews the most if not the Christian themselves?.” – Syukri- and again I hear your favourite chant “CHRISTIAN ATROCITIES”.
And again my same reply : Bad examples of Christians does nor make Christianity false.
Your wiki article states:Wikipedia:
“In the Middle Ages Antisemitism in Europe was religious. Though not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, have held the Jewish people collectively responsible for killing Jesus,…”
It is to the credit of the Roman Catholic Church that antisemitism “not part of Roman Catholic dogma,..”.
Lastly “How contradict with ” Salvation from Jews” as claimed by poor desperate sonlight.” – Syukri. I wish to remind everyone that it was Jesus who said ”… salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NIV)
What is your response (Syukri and Zaid) to this words of Jesus “… salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NIV)? (Not authentic???)
peace… out
To Zaid,
You say; zaid, Apr 25th, 2010 at 8:53 pm “You have proven the ARROGANCE of the Jews in your bible. Its so much obvious that the authors of your Gospel were from among the Jews. Such proven from the verses you quoted. “Self praise is international disgrace”, such are your “honorable” Jews.” – Zaid.
I wish to, politely, tell you that what you have written does not make sense.
Firstly, from our discussion on Deuteronomy 18:18 you know that Christians believe all the prophets who came after Moses were from Israel (or Jews). You yourself say this: zaid.Mar 24th, 2010 at 10:22 am
“If THESE TWO ARE THE ONLY CRITERIA for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then it SHOULD HAVE APPLIED to all the Prophets of the Bible who came after Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) since ALL WERE JEWS as well as prophets….” – Zaid.
God has CHOSEN to involve the Jews in His plan to save the world (not because of any merit on the part of the Jews). Even the declaration “…salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NIV) was said by a Jew (Jesus) and recorded by a Jew (Saint John).
If Christians are correct in their understanding that God will send his messages to his prophets,who must be Jews (Note:1:as the Bible seems indicate 2: As you, perhaps without realizing it , seem to support by saying all prophets after Moses were Jews -except Muhammad, of course. 3. Quran indicates all the prophets were Jews – except Muhammad of course.), so why do you see it as a problem that “Its so much obvious that the authors of your Gospel were from among the Jews.” – Zaid. ?
If God CHOOSES to work his plan of salvation through the Jews (as the Bible seems to indicate); then if God wants to send his message/plan of salvation; who is He going to send the message of His plan through? TIBETAN MONKS ???. (Surely you do not need me to answer this question.)
It is not a case of ““Self praise is international disgrace” as you say, nor is it “ARROGANCE of the Jews..” but purely a case of it being God’s CHOICE.
You are one funny fellow.
“…salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NIV)
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
Are you very sure that the Jews believe in Trinity and Jesus is God? Salvation come from the Jews?? Ok, prophets came from the Jews, but who said Jesus is God? Name any of the prophets or Jewish philosopher who preached that??
Keep in mind, that I am not denying any of the Jewish prophet, coz they are our Muslim prophets as well. The point is each time the prophets were sent to the Jews, they were denied and persecuted. Who persecuted these prophets? The Arabs?
If the Jews themselves persecuted their own prophets, then who can you rely on to preserve the prophets’ teachings?
Read on Judaism about Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus.
You failed to see that Christianity is not a religion brought by Jesus and other prophets. Jews themselves failed to recognize Jesus as a Man being God.
Trinity is a strayed beliefs.
To Zaid,
I said earlier:-What is your response (Syukri and Zaid) to this words of Jesus “… salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NIV)? (Not authentic???).
Zaid’s reply:”..Salvation come from the Jews??”- Zaid.
What do you mean by that (i.e two question marks). Do you disagree with the statement of Jesus that ““… salvation is from the Jews.” John 4:22 (NIV). Please explain.
You say:”Who persecuted these prophets? The Arabs?” – Zaid.
Sonlight’s reply: I know that a number of prophets were persecuted by Jews. The Arabs ( as far as I know) did not persecute the earlier prophets. This is because God did not send the prophets to the Arab nation but to the Jewish nation (The Bible does record the prophets’ helping individual non-Jews though). The fact that the prophets addressed the Jews and not the Arabs does not help the Muslim’s case.
Also you say:”… Jews themselves failed to recognize Jesus as a Man being God.” – Zaid.
Sonlight’s reply: This is an inaccurate statement.
The first followers of Jesus were all Jews. Paul was a Jew.
The Jews, shortly after Jesus rose from the dead, can be divided into two types: firstly, the Jews who say the Messiah is still to come; secondly, the Jews who say the Messiah has come (i.e. Christians).
The Jews who say the Messiah has come, later separated from the other Jews to form the Christian Church. Non-Jews also joined the Church.
BTW – I believe it is correct to say that Christianity can be seen as a Jewish sect. Judaism says that the Messiah is to come. Christianity is a branch of Judaism that says the Messiah has come. (Christianity still uses the entire Hebrew bible i.e Old testament).
peace…out
To Zaid,
I said earlier: “Judaism says that the Messiah is to come. Christianity is a branch of Judaism that says the Messiah has come. (Christianity still uses the entire Hebrew bible i.e Old testament).
So Christianity differed from Judaism, at the time of Jesus, over the issue of whether the Messiah had come or not. Christians do not look upon Judaism at the time of Jesus as being a false religion and its holy books corrupted. Christianity can be seen as ‘Judaism that says the Messiah has come’. There is continuity.
My question to you is: What is the purpose of the Messiah in Islam?
Christianity is about the Messiah. (the name ‘CHRIST’ is Greek for the Jewish word ‘Messiah’. The thoughts about the Messiah are all linked in Christianity and the Bible (e.g. why was the Messiah born of a virgin).
I wish to ask this because it seems to me Islam is odd when we compare it with Christianity.
For example:
1) Christianity, at its appearance, accepted the entire Jewish Bible ( the previous revelations) and did not say that the Jews have corrupted the books. In contrast, Muslims say the Christian Bible has been changed OR the original message lost OR…etc
2) Christianity does not look upon Judaism, at the time of Jesus, as being a false religion. In contrast, Muslims seem to say that the true Christian message (the revelation before Muhammad) was lost and that is why God had to send Muhammad.
3) Christianity appeared as a result of a fulfillment of what came before.
Islam claims to be a correction(???) of what came before.
I am just sharing with you what is presently on my mind. I shall have to read up more on this topic i.e the Messiah in Islam.
The Messiah in Islam looks to me like an idea copied from the Jews and the Christian. Because it was copied, the idea does not sit in a polished way in Islam; there are loose ends. ( I heard that the Messiah in Islam started talking when he was a baby and that he made birds from clay and brought them to life. Did I hear correctly. Is it true, Zaid).
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
Muslim believes that Jesus pbuh is the Messiah, (Al – Masih), who shall come to fulfill his messianic mission near the judgement day. Likewise Christians believed, it will be Jesus 2nd coming to the world. This is to fulfill God’s plan to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
Narrated Abu Huraira(RA) that the Prophet(SAW) said:
There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace be upon him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 37, No. 4310)
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Muslim believes that the miraculous birth of Jesus pbuh is just a sign of God’s AlMightiness, as like the Creation of Adam. Near end of time, Jesus will descend and break the cross, abolish the jizyah (tax) as the earth at that time will be filled with abundant of luxuries and everyone on earth will be well-off and needless of charity. We believe that Jesus was raised to heaven with God’s promise that he will be sent down to earth near judgment day, to lead the entire world back to the true path towards God, that is Islam. (Islam means surrender or submission to the Wills of God). Therefore in Islam, Jesus the Messiah prophecies has yet to be fulfilled.
Why Jesus the Messiah or Saviour as we call him. Reason, God knows the ppl on earth will drift away and further from God as the world gets more advanced. The abundance of luxuries and entertainments in life as we see now had drawn us akinned to our lewd and wordly desires. So much that most of us neglect our responsibilities, worship and relationship with God. Look at the corrupt world today. Fornications, nudity, rape, drugs, robbery and other social problems are becoming part of one’s life.
God the Most Merciful and most Forgiving shall therefore command his servant, Jesus the Messiah to serve a final reminder and guidance to the ppl of the already corrupted world back to God’s path. It is a final chance for ppl of the entire world to heed Jesus advice before the judgment day where the door of repentance will be closed. Unlike Christian beliefs that Jesus is God, Jesus at the end of time shall pray with the ppl to God Almighty and Jesus will CORRECT the wrong assumptions and beliefs about him being God. No one at that time will worship or pray to Jesus as God but to One GOD, the Creator who is without any association as Jesus shall command.
In Quran and Hadiths had mentioned about the miracles of Jesus, like you’ve also mentioned: Jesus talking in the cradle, healing the lepers, raised the dead and putting life to bird made from clay. These we believe are signs of God, not Jesus being God as Jesus was strengthened by the presence of Ruhul Quddus. It is from this strength granted to Jesus by God, that raise the dead as life passes into anyone or thing touched by Jesus. Like I’ve mentioned, God’s presence is everywhere, which is not separated or isolated but within His entire creations.
Ruhul Quddus is not God or a part of the Trinity Christians believed. Islam understanding on the relationship between God and Human, is like an everlasting Light (God) that shines onto a mirror (Our Heart). However due to the clouds of secondary traces and filthiness of our heart, that we are veiled from witnessing the Truth. If the mirror(heart) is constantly cleanse and polished, the Light (Truth) will pass through the mirror and generates a reflection of its rays. At this stage, one will witness his existence coincide with Al-Haq and realizes that God overcomes all things and is within ALL things including himself. One who reaches this limit is called Insaanul Kamil or “Perfect Man” and with God’s Will, God shall grant him with the capabilities of performing miracles as signs of his closedness to God.
The attributes of God are within us and dwell in us, so close that seemingly God is hidden and far away from us, without us realising that God is the strength, truth, light and life within our-Self, never separated or isolated.
This truth can only be unveiled and witnessed through seeking Makrifat in Islam.
PEACE
Islam the true path towards God.
Hello zaid and syukri, my msiguided dawagandists..!
I dah ask you about the so-called miracle in your Hadiths that muhammad allegedly ‘split the moon’ into half when he was alive..
So far, theres no response to that at all! Why not? Simply because theres no way muslims can ever justify this nonsensical ‘event’ in the Hadith.
Zaid, being the real desperado in your misguided zeal to push islam and its so-called ‘truth’, konon, hahahaha!
Refer now to your missionary claim that Muhd ’split the moon’, according to the hadiths!
IF- there EVER was such a ’splitting of the moon’ and whatever you may fantasise about its ‘re-sealing’, you better come up with corroborating proofs that there were climatic and meteorological CONSEQUENCES in the global Hemisphere in the time when your prophet lived!
Since the moon’s gravitational pull controls the oceans’ waves and the weather world-wide, were there ANY REPORTS in the zaman of nabi islam itu tentang tsunamis, typhoons, world-wide floodings and macam2 malapetaka seperti itu??
If you read about the world history at the relevant time – there were no such things happening! So, the cerita2 dalam hadith about muhd split the moon, konon, are all just KARUT BELAKA! Falsehoods and empty words to try and impress non-muslims that muhd did some miracles, just like Jesus Christ did.
UNFORTUNATELY for muhd, he did no miracle that can be compared to what Jesus Christ did in His lifetime – healing the sick, raising the dead, calming the storms, feeding thousands of hungry people, changing water into wine, etc…!
In fact, some muslim ilmuwan deny that muhd did ANY miracle at all! They claim that the only miracle he did was to bawa quran into the world, itu saja! Answer me this you two, IF you can!
So, confusion reigns dalam dunia islam, when you guys try to convince us about the so-called greatness of muhd in the area of miracle-working.
Its a sham, Zaid. islam and muhammad have absolutely NOTHING to offer the world, whether yesterday, today OR tomorrow!
Hamzah.
Hi Hamzah,
I wouldn’t want to elaborate more about the miracle things, be it Jesus, Muhammad or Moses (peace and blessings upon them). It will come to an endless and fruitless debate.
In fact, I can ask you the same questions about Jesus miracles. Other than quoting your bible, what other proofs can you present to prove those miracles? Did you witness it? How do you know such miracles happened? By the way miracles don’t prove that Jesus is God, cause Moses perform miracles too. Then again, you will play the ‘Roti Prata” game to prove your corrupted bible by saying Jesus is a prophet as well as God.
The point about faith and our beliefs in God are not based on who perform miracles better. I’d rather touch on the point “Why God Created Us?” and “What is the purpose of life?” I am very sure none other except Islam has the answer to this.
Creation is not accidental, unintentional or a mistake by God. Your screwed Christianity beliefs in Book of Genesis is a great insult to God saying that God first regretted creating angel who turned satan, and had another creation that is human, who again disobeyed God. So finally God had to sacrifice his Son Jesus to atone for human sins. (Sorry again, am I saying correctly? Jesus is God, so how does God sent God to scarifice God.) What nonsense.
I don’t even need to have a second thought to conclude that your Trinity belief is flawed. So what’s there to prove from your miracles? No way you can prove that Jesus is God.
I mentioned to you many times. Please prove or explain to me WHERE IS JESUS? Isn’t God omnipresent? I’ve explained in my posts many times about God, how God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.
I’m wondering how do you worship a God whom you are unsure where to find him or even has no idea where is His whereabouts now??? You are worshipping your own conjectures and imagination.
Read Again:-
For that God has never departed or isolated from the world.
Allah is not veiled , it is you that are veiled from seeing Him.
If there was anything veiling Him what veil would cover Him.
If he was covered, His existence would be contained.
If something contains something else, it overpowers it.
But He is the Conqueror, overcoming His slaves.
He is nearer to you than you can ever imagine.
Trinity is utter rubbish! Jesus had long departed and left this world hence he’s NOT GOD.
Peace
Islam is Truth
You say: “By the way, what influenced these apostates towards christianity are never based on what they have learnt from the Qur’an in depth…… Each of their testimony only talked about the grievances and sufferings that they had faced within their communities and then tried to relate all these to Islam added with their ignorant and lack of understanding about real Islam.” -zaid, Apr 16th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
You repeat the lame excuse that Muslims who leave Islam are “ignorant and lack of understanding about real Islam.” even when Imams, and teachers of Islam have left Islam.
I refered you earlier to a video by an ex- Muslim. (He is not a Christian. Many of his points I have heard before from Christian websites but he says it so well.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP–gdzsBXM
I have now also found the video where the creator of the last video clip talks about his past life as a Muslim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19CiPKbAmd8
I am high-lighting this latest video as a response to your propaganda that all who leave Islam are “ignorant and lack of understanding about real Islam.”
I am well aware that after seeing this last video, Muslims may still want to cling to the fallacy that this apostate and others like him are “ignorant and lack of understanding about real Islam.”
FYI
peace…out
I have now also found the video where the creator of the last video clip talks about his past life as a Muslim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19CiPKbAmd8
My reply:
Please dun waste your time with such videos, coz I also can find abundant of videos of Christians turned Muslims who talked about falsehood of Christianity. I don’t need to rely on other ppl opinions to support my beliefs.
———————————————————
I am high-lighting this latest video as a response to your propaganda that all who leave Islam are “ignorant and lack of understanding about real Islam.”
I am well aware that after seeing this last video, Muslims may still want to cling to the fallacy that this apostate and others like him are “ignorant and lack of understanding about real Islam.”
My reply:
Please use your own understanding to describe or prove Islam fallacies.
Your method of preaching reminds me of a story of several blind men who were sent to identify an elephant, 1st man who touched the body said elephant is flat, 2nd who touched the trunk said elephant is long like a hose. 3rd who touched the trunk said elephant is bent with a sharp end and so forth,
MORAL OF THE STORY: Don’t judge when you have very little knowledge or info in hand, while the big chunk is based on your conjectures. Be thorough!
Even if you would have acquire some info from someone, don’t you think that they need to be further scrutinized and thoroughly investigated? Have you seen me quoting ex Christians quotes to support my beliefs?
You guys are real desperados.
Islam is Truth.
Learn Islam the proper way and judge!
Sonlight Quote
I have now also found the video where the creator of the last video clip talks about his past life as a Muslim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19CiPKbAmd8
I’m not too sure why you’ve chosen this video about a guy trying to fit religion into his rational thinking. He’s against God’s punishing the unbelievers in hell for eternity as to him is irrational and unjust.
Don’t Christians also believe in Hell? So what is the relevance of this video to prove Islam fallacies?
Peace
Islam is truth
Hi Zaid,
Why do you try escaping from answering my honest and open questions??
It is obvious that you have no knowledge to defend the nonsense claims of the quran, about the ‘only miracle that Muhammad ever did’!
The Quran mentions one specific miracle of Muhammad:
The Hour has drawn nigh: the moon is split. Yet if they see a sign they turn away, and they
say ‘A continuous sorcery!’ Surah al-Qamar (the moon) 54:1-2
Many Muslims claim that this refers to the moon being split in the presence of the unbelievers during the time of Muhammad. This alleged miracle is reported in several hadiths:
Narrated Anas:
That the Meccan people requested Allah’s Apostle to show them a miracle, and so he showed them the splitting of the moon.
From Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 831.
In FACT, these orthodox muslim sources claim that the moon was split into two parts during the LIFETIME of the Prophet. – Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: from hadith al-bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 832.
SO, this is no FUTURE splitting of the poor moon (hehehehe!) BUT the hadith ridiculously CLAIMS that it ‘happened during muhammad’s LIFETIME’ (See above citation)-when muhd was still hanging around the world previously.
There are several problems in appealing to the above citation. First, this contradicts surah al-ankabut 29:48-51 which says that the Quran is sufficient as a sign, or miracle, from God.
If Muhammad needed to provide a miracle in addition to the Quran then this only serves to falsify his own statement regarding the Quran’s sufficiency.
Zaid, just don’t try to worm your way out of this one – if islam and the quran are reliable, such nonensical KARUT teachings will never be found in it!
As it is, it is found AND proven that the quran and hadith are promoters of doubtful, questionable and very ridiculous teachings that cannot be explained by muslims.
Zaid don’t try to deflect your responsibilities to provide logical and rational answers to my queries above!
Pointing to some so-called ‘errors in the Bible’ etc NEVER solves your problem – you need TO Explain SENSIBLY the claim of the Splitting of the Moon in islam, within your quran! If you cannot provide us with any reasonable reply, then don’t come back to preach islam to the non-muslims here.
It has been shown to be a Nonsensical belief system, nothing more.
Hamzah.
hamzah,
stop being an idiot will you. I have asked for a non miracle evidence from you regarding your nonsensical claim about Malay christians population TWICE But Up till now you cant even bring forth even one evidence to support your NONSENSICAL dawagandist claim. And here you are demanding proof of miracles? Who is trying to worm his way out now? Even the simplest proof of a non miracle claim you cant produce and here you are acting like some major christian scholar trying to prove Islam false.
Just in case if you have gone senile, here is my question:
Feb 7
Sebahagian BESAR kau tu berape besar agaknye? Mana bukti nye? Tolong sediakan kenyataan kau tu bersamaan dengan BUKTI KUKUH. Aku mahu tengok STATISTIS Dari kerajaan dari mana mana Negara yang ada orang MELAYU TULIN. Kalau kau tak mampu buat sedemikian, ia cuma akan menjadi satu bukti bagi dirinye sendiri yang menunjukkan satu lagi contoh propaganda yang DAWAGANDIST seperti kau inginkan orang lain percaya.
Feb 8
“Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini, sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian” Hamzah Feb 7th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Ingat, kau dah cuba sekali untuk elak soalan aku ni dengan berbual pekara merepek. Sekarang aku tanya kau sekali lagi:
Sebahagian BESAR kau tu berape besar agaknye? Mana bukti nye? Tolong sediakan kenyataan kau tu bersamaan dengan BUKTI KUKUH. Aku mahu tengok STATISTIS Dari kerajaan mana mana Negara yang ada orang MELAYU TULIN. Kau faham apa tu maksud TULIN? Nak aku jelaskan? Takpe, aku tak nak kasi nampak sangat kebodohan dan kebengapan kau tu ketara. Kalau kau tak tau, aku syorkan kau gi tanya buntat Pinoy Pinoy kesayangan kau tu since kau mengatakan bahawa mereka tu orang melayu. OK?
Jadi, sila hadapkan BUKTI KUKUH kau tu. Kalau kau termampu. Dan jangan berbual merepek melalui repeat telecast yang dah lapuk tu sebab Propaganda dari Dawagandist seperti kau dah biasa aku temui.
And dont try to worm your way out of this now.
Hi Hamzah,
Science and religion are 2 different things. Funny that you asked about the after effect of splitting moon when you know very well that God controls the entire universe. If something happened following nature cause, then it is no miracle anymore.
Ask yourself, when you read about Jesus miracles, how do conclude that they were true and really happened? Just because Bible said so? Produce the evidences then, as like you insist from Islam.
BTW, you are ignorant about Islam but tried to act like a “Professor” in religions. I can show you abundance of Prophet Muhammad’s miracles from authentic chains of Hadiths narrations. Read below.
(I ANTICIPATE THAT YOU WILL START TO DENY THE AUTHENTICITY OF THESE HADITHS, HOWEVER THEY ARE STILL SUPERIOR THAN YOUR UNAUTHENTIC BIBLE WIRTTEN BY ANONYMOUS AUTHORS. WHO KNOWS WHETHER THE ANONYMOUS AUTHORS ARE BIG LIARS SINCE NOBODY KNOWS THEM EVEN CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES!)
———————————————————–
Examples of the Prophet’s miracles concerning water
• The Companions were left without water in a place called Zarwa. They were going to do wudu’ (ritual ablution) but they could not find enough water. God’s Messenger ordered them to bring a bowl of water. He dipped his hands into the bowl and water began to run from his fingers like a fountain. Anas ibn Malik says that on that day they were three hundred people. [3]
Anas relates this incident on behalf of three hundred persons. Is it at all conceivable that those three hundred people would not have confirmed him, if they thought him to be truthful, or otherwise contradicted him?
• As a second example, during the campaign of Hudaybiya, the Companions complained to God’s Messenger about the lack of water. The Messenger took an arrow out of his arrow-bag and ordered them to put it in the well of Samad. When they did that, the water of the well began to gush. During the campaign, all of the Companions drank from it and did wudu’ with it. [4]
Examples of the miracles of the healing of ill and wounded people.
Authentic books of Tradition, including primarily Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih al-Muslim, report:
• During the Battle of Khaybar, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, asked where ‘Ali was. ‘He is suffering from sore eyes’, the Companions answered. He sent for him. ‘Ali came and the Messenger applied his healing saliva to his eyes. At the same moment the pain ceased and ‘Ali’s eyes became better than before. [5]
• ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf relates:
A blind man came to God’s Messenger and requested him to pray to God to recover his eyes. The Messenger said: “If you desire, I’ll not pray—being blind may be better for your afterlife—or I’ll pray.” The man chose to be relieved of blindness and the Messenger told him: “Go and do an ablution. Then pray two rak‘as and say: ‘O God! Surely my appeal is to You and I turn toward You through the Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy: O Muhammad, surely I turn toward God through you, that He uncover my sight. O God, make him my intercessor.’” The man did what the Messenger told him and his sight was restored. [6]
There are many more examples concerning this kind of miracle God’s Messenger worked, all of which are recorded in books of Tradition.
The testimony of animals to Muhammad’s Prophethood
The animal kingdom recognized God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, and became the means for him to work miracles. Although there are many examples, we will mention here only a few that have become well-known and agreed on by exacting authorities.
• During the Hijra, when God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, took shelter from the pursuit of unbelievers in the cave of Thawr, two pigeons stood guard at the entrance like two sentries, and a spider, like a doorkeeper, covered the entrance of the cave with a thick web. As Ubayy in Khalaf, one of the chieftains of the Quraysh, was examining the cave, his friends suggested that they should enter, but he answered: ‘There is a web here, which seems to have been spun before the birth of Muhammad.’ The others added: ‘Would those pigeons, standing there, still be there if someone were in the cave?’ [7]
• As another example, Jabir relates:
I was with God’s Messenger during a military campaign. When my camel became exhausted and left behind, God’s Messenger prodded it slightly. This made the camel so fast that I had to pull on the reins to make it slower so that I could listen to the Messenger, but I was unable to (slow it down). [8]
• Anas ibn Malik reports:
After the conquest of Khaybar, a Jewish woman offered God’s Messenger a roasted sheep. God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, ate a piece of it but, according to the narration of Abu Dawud, stopped eating and said: This sheep says that it is poisonous. Then he turned to the woman and asked her why she offered him a poisonous sheep. When the woman replied that she wanted to kill him, the Messenger responded: God will not let you attack and annoy me. [9]
• A’isha reports:
We had in our house a kind of pigeon. When God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, was at home, it would stay quiet, but as soon as he left home, it would continually pace to and fro. [10]
• Anas ibn Malik relates:
God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, was the comeliest and the most generous and courageous of people. One night the people of Madina heard some voices and set out to investigate in fear. On their way, they saw a man coming towards them, who appeared to be God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings. He said to them: There is nothing to be distressed about. He had mounted Abu Talha’s horse and himself investigated the matter before anybody else. He turned to Abu Talha and said: I found your horse fast and comfortable. Whereas, that horse had been a very slow one. After that night, no other horse could race against it. [11]
Examples of the Prophet’s miracles concerning inanimate objects
• Jabir ibn Samura reports:
God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, once said: “Prior to my Prophethood, a rock in Makka used to offer me greetings. I still recognize it.” [12]
• ‘Abullah ibn Mas‘ud reports:
We could hear food glorifying God while we were eating with God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings. [13]
• Traditionists unanimously report from Anas, Abu Hurayra, ‘Uthman and Sa‘id ibn Zayd, who said:
God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, climbed up Mount Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthman. The Mountain, either in awe of them or because of its joy, trembled. God’s Messenger ordered it: Be still, O Uhud, for on you there is a Prophet, a truthful one, and two martyrs. [14]
• It is established through authentic narrations from ‘Ali, Jabir and ‘A‘isha Siddiqa that rocks and mountains would say to God’s Messenger, ‘Peace be upon you, O Messenger of God!’ ‘Ali says: ’Whenever we went for a walk in the suburbs of Makka in the early times of his Prophethood, trees and rocks we encountered would say, ‘Peace be upon you, O Messenger of God!’ [15]
The Prophet’s protection as a miracle
• As related through various channels, during the military campaign of Ghatfan and Anmar, a courageous chieftain named Ghowras unexpectedly appeared at the side of God’s Messenger, who was lying under a tree. Ghowras unsheathed his sword and asked God’s Messenger, ‘Who will save you from me now?’ God will, the Messenger replied. “God!” Then he prayed: “O God, suffice me against him in any way You will.” [16]
At that moment, Ghowras was knocked down and his sword slipped from his hand. God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, took the sword and asked him: Now, who will save you from me?
Ghowras began to tremble and entreated God’s Messenger to spare his life. ‘You are a noble, forgiving one; only forgiveness is expected of you,’ he pleaded. God’s Messenger forgave him, and when Ghowras returned to his tribe, he said to them: ‘I have just come from the best of mankind.’
• Abu Hurayra relates:
Abu Jahl once asked those near him: ‘Does Muhammad still rub his face against earth [i.e. make prostration]?’
– Yes, he does, they answered.
Abu Jahl added:
– By Lat and ‘Uzza, if I see him doing that again, I will tread on his neck or bury his face with soil.’
A short while later God’s Messenger came and set out to pray. When he was in prostration, Abu Jahl approached him but suddenly turned back in fear and amazement, trying to protect himself with his hands. When asked why he had done so, he answered: ‘Truly, between him and me is a trench filled with fire, and something horrible and some wings.’
God’s Messenger commented on the event: “If he had approached me, the angels would have torn him to pieces.” [17]
The acceptance of the Prophet’s prayers
• The authorities of Hadith (Tradition) including, notably, Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim, unanimously report that whenever God’s Messenger prayed for rain, his prayer was immediately accepted by God. There were even times when the rain unexpectedly began before he had lowered his hands while on the pulpit. As mentioned in books of Tradition and the Prophet’s biography, when his army ran out of water, clouds would appear to give them water. Even in his childhood, his grandfather ‘Abd al-Muttalib would go with him to pray for rain, and rain would come out of God’s love for him. This fact became famous through a poem of ‘Abd al-Muttalib’s. After the Prophet’s death, once ‘Umar took ‘Abbas as a means to pray for rain, saying, ‘O God, this is the uncle of Your beloved Prophet. Give us rain for his sake.’ Thereafter it rained. [18]
• As was reported by Anas ibn Malik, while one Friday God’s Messenger was giving a sermon, a man came into the mosque and said to him: ‘O Messenger of God! There is drought. Please pray to God to send us rain.’ The Messenger prayed and it rained until the next Friday.
The rain continued for one week. The next Friday, while God’s Messenger was on the pulpit again giving sermon, a man stood up and said: ‘O Messenger of God! Please pray to God to avert rain from us.’ The Messenger prayed: “O God! Send the rain onto the places around us, not onto us.” Anas, the reporter of the event, says: “By God, I saw the clouds scatter and rain fall onto other places, the people of Madina being not under rain.” [19]
• ‘Adbullah ibn ‘Umar relates:
When the number of the Companions was about forty, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, prayed: “O God! Give strength to Islam with which of those two, namely ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab and ‘Amr ibn al-Hisham, is more pleasing to You.” The next morning, ‘Umar came to the Messenger and accepted Islam. [20]
• ‘Adbullah ibn ‘Abbas reports:
God’s Messenger was in the toilet when once I carried water to where he would do wudu’. When he came out, he asked who had put the water there. ‘I did,’ I answered. Whereupon he prayed: “O God, make him profoundly knowledgeable in religion and teach him the meaning of the Qur’an.” [21]
It is because of this prayer of the Messenger for Ibn ‘Abbas that Ibn ‘Abbas would later be called with the titles of the ‘Profound Scholar of the Umma’ and the ‘Interpreter of the Qur’an’. When he was still a young man, ‘Umar included him in his consultative assembly which consisted of the high-ranking scholars and elders of the Companions.
• Anas ibn Malik relates:
My mother took me to God’s Messenger and said:
– O Messenger of God! This is my son Anas. Let him serve you. Please pray for him.
The Messenger prayed: “O God! Give abundance to his wealth and offspring.” [22]
Anas remarked in his old age, swearing by God: “You see the abundance of my wealth, and the children and grand-children I have number about one hundred.”
• Abu Hurayra once complained to God’s Messenger about forgetfulness. The Messenger told him to spread out a piece of cloth on the ground. Then he made some movements as if he were filling his hands with some invisible things and emptying them out on the piece of cloth. After repeating this three or four times, he told Abu Hurayra to pick it up. Through the mysterious effect of these actions of the Messenger, Abu Hurayra, as he himself later stated swearing by God, never forgot anything again. This is also among the well-known events related to the Companions. [23]
The Prophet met with angels and jinn and spoke to them
• ‘Umar reports:
We were sitting with God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, when a man appeared beside us. He had dark black hair and was wearing a white robe. There were no signs of traveling upon him. He sat before the Messenger and, touching his knees to the Messenger’s, asked him about faith, Islam, perfection of virtue (ihsan) and the Last Day. After the interview, the man left and disappeared. God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, turned to me and asked who that man was. ‘God and His Messenger know better’, I answered. The Messenger concluded: “He was Gabriel. He came to teach you your religion.” [24]
• Sa‘d ibn Abi Waqqas relates:
At the Battle of Uhud, I saw two men dressed in white at each side of God’s Messenger, fighting for his sake. I had never seen them before, nor have I seen them since. (Sa‘d meant that they were two archangels, Gabriel and Michael.) [25]
• Rifa‘a ibn Rafi‘ reports:
Gabriel asked God’s Messenger what was their opinion of the Companions who participated in the Battle of Badr. The Messenger answered like this: “We consider them among the most virtuous of Muslims.” Gabriel responded: “So do we; we consider the angels who were present there among the most virtuous of angels.” [26]
• In his Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal reports from ‘Adbullah ibn Mas’ud that God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, invited jinn to accept Islam and taught them of the Qur’an. [27]
The appearance of invisible objects and realms to the Prophet
• ‘A’isha Siddiqa reports:
One day the sun was eclipsed. God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, performed the prayer of eclipse and then explained:
Surely, the sun and the moon are two of God’s signs. When you witness an eclipse, pray until it ends. By God, in this place where I have performed the prayer I have seen everything promised to me. When you saw me move forward during the prayer, I did that to take a cluster of grapes which appeared to me from Paradise. Again, by God, when you saw me move backward, I did that because I saw Hell roaring with its parts piling one upon another. [28]
• ‘Adbullah ibn ‘Abbas relates:
God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, passed by two graves and said: “Heed what I will tell you: Those lying in those graves are suffering torments. They are suffering torments because of two grave sins. One of them used to backbite and slander others everywhere. The other was not careful [about guarding himself] against urine-stains.” [29]
The testimony of trees to Muhammad’s Prophethood
• Jabir ibn ‘Adbullah reports:
We were walking with God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings. We went down a wide valley. The Messenger searched for a place to relieve himself. When he saw that there was not a single covered place, he went to the two trees he had caught sight of by the valley. He pulled one of them by one of its branches, next to the other tree. The tree was like an obedient camel being pulled by its reins. He addressed them: Join together over me by God’s leave! The trees joined together and formed a screen. [30]
• ‘Adbullah ibn ‘Umar reports:
God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, used to lean against a pole called the ‘date-palm trunk’ when delivering a sermon. Later a pulpit was built and when the Prophet started giving his sermons from it, the pole moaned because of its separation from him. The Messenger climbed down and stroked it. The pole stopped moaning. [31]
• ‘Abu Sa’id al-Khudri relates:
God’s Messenger gave Qatada ibn Nu‘man a stick on a dark night, saying: “This stick will light up your surroundings as far as seven meters. When you get home, you will see a black shadow. Without giving it respite to tell you anything, strike it with this stick. Qatada did what God’s Messenger told him to. [32]
1. Bukhari, Ayman, 22; Muslim, Ashriba, 142.
2. Bukhari, At‘ima, 6; Muslim, Ashriba, 175.
3. Nasa’i, 1.60; Bukhari, 4.233; Muslim, Hadith No. 2279.
4. Bukhari, Shurut, 15.
5. Bukhari, Fada’l al-Sahaba, 9; Muslim, Fada’il al-Sahaba, 34.
6. Tirmidhi, Da‘awat, 119; I. Hanbal, 4.138; I. Maja, Iqama, 189.
7. I. Hanbal, Musnad, 1.348.
8. Bukhari, Nikah, 10.22.
9. Muslim, Salam, 45; Abu Dawud, Diyat, 6.
10. I. Hanbal, Musnad, 4.112.
11. Bukhari, Adab, 39; Muslim, Fada’il, 48; I. Hanbal, 3.147.
12. Muslim, Fada’il, 2; Darimi, Muqaddima.
13. Bukhari, Manaqib, 25; I. Hanbal, Musnad, 1.460.
14. Muslim, Fada’il, 50.
15. Tirmidhi, Hadith No. 3630; Hakim, 2.607.
16. Bukhari, Maghazi, 31, 33; Muslim, Fada’il, 13.
17. Muslim, Sifat al-Munafiqin, 38.
18. Bukhari, 2.35; Bayhaqi, Sunan, 6.147.
19. Bukhari, Istisqa’, 7; Muslim, Istisqa’, 1.
20. Bukhari, Istisqa’, 7; Muslim, Istisqa’, 1.
21. Bukhari, ‘Ilm, 17; Muslim, Fada’il, 137.
22. Muslim, Fada’il, 143.
23. Muslim, Fada’il, 159.
24. Bukhari, Iman, 37.
25. Bukhari, Maghazi, 18; Muslim, Fada’il, 46–7.
26. Bukhari, Maghazi, 11.
27. Musnad, 1.455.
28. Bukhari, Abwab ‘amal fi l-Salat, 2; Muslim, Kusuf, 3.
29. Bukhari, Adab, 46; Muslim, Tahara, 3.
30. Muslim, Zuhd, 74.
31. Bukhari, Manaqib, 25; Tirmidhi, Manaqib, 6; Nasa’i, Jumu‘a, 17.
32. I. Hanbal, Musnad, 3.65
PEACE
ISLAM IS TRUTH
Hamzah,
Eye witnesses of Moon Splitting during Prophet Muhammad pbuh life
King of India who witnessed the incident from his country.
King Chakrawati Farmas of Malabar was a Chera king, Cheraman perumal of Kodungallure. He is recorded to have seen the moon split. The incident is documented in a manuscript kept at the India Office Library, London, reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173.[4] A group of Muslim merchant’s passing by Malabar on their way to China spoke to the king about how God had supported the Arabian prophet with the miracle of splitting of the moon. The shocked king said he had seen it with his own eyes as well, deputized his son, and left for Arabia to meet the Prophet in person. The Malabari king met the Prophet, bore the two testimonies of faith, learned the basics of faith, but passed away on his way back and was buried in the port city of Zafar, Yemen.[5]
The old manuscript in the ‘India Office Library’ contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.
Truth will always prevail.
Islam is the ultimate Truth
Peace
Hamzah quoted:
There are several problems in appealing to the above citation. First, this contradicts surah al-ankabut 29:48-51 which says that the Quran is sufficient as a sign, or miracle, from God.
Surah al-ankabut 29:48-51
Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs. (49) Yet they say: “Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?” Say: “The Signs are indeed with Allah: and I am indeed a clear Warner.” (50) And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily in it is Mercy and Reminder to those who believe. (51)
If Muhammad needed to provide a miracle in addition to the Quran then this only serves to falsify his own statement regarding the Quran’s sufficiency.
My Reply:
The verse is not concluding that Quran is the only miracle, but it is Allah’s criticism on the unbelievers that though Quran was revealed as a clear Sign to them, the unbelievers kept challenging Muhammad pbuh to show proofs of his prophethood, which Allah granted through Muhammad’s pbuh prayers from time to time.
BTW, you’ve desperately failed to prove that Jesus miracles are linked to Jesus Godship.
Since many prophets such as Moses had performed miracles, so tell me is Jesus prophet or God?
Peace
To Zaid
I wish to highlight another piece of your writing that does not make sense.
You say: ” Zaid,Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:46 am,
………I don’t understand how Christians could lay their trust on Paul’s writings after what this evil guy had done to persecute all Jesus true followers. For sure ALL jesus genuine follwers had been totally wiped off from this earth, before Paul started his new religion which is called “Christianity” today.”
I pointed out earlier that “You contradict not only the Bible but the Quran also….
Quran 21:7 -”Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men … If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7).
I had in mind “THE MESSAGE” as being the BIBLE as Muhammad was told to ask “…THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7).
But you (Zaid) replied(as I understand) that “THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7) does not refer to a physical book but to those who recite God’s earlier message correctly.
(Zaid -April 22, 2010 = Indeed during Muhammad’s time, there were still honest Jewish minorities who possess knowledge and spiritually obedient to the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel. It isn’t referring to the already corrupted written books of the New and Old testament at that time which never came or been authenticated by Jesus or prophets before him, yet written by anonymous authors.- zaid)
Your error here is “Jewish minorities who possess knowledge and spiritually obedient to the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel.”- zaid
Jews did not believe in the Injeel (i.e Gospel – whether the Gospel is a book or a Recitation/Reminder as you may want people to believe.). If the Jews did believe in the Gospel they would be Christians. (The Jews did not believe in the Gospel and tried to kill Lord Jesus).
Now the fact that the Quran refers to “…”THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” Sura 21:7 (whether this message- i.e Torah/Injeel is a book or a Recitation/Reminder) would indicate that true Christians (those who believe in the Injeel) were around at the time of Muhammad.
So your statement” For sure ALL jesus genuine follwers had been totally wiped off from this earth, before Paul started his new religion which is called “Christianity” today” – contradicts the Quran (because surely Allah would instruct Muhammad to ask genuine followers of the Torah/Injeel who would still be around). This last statement I referred to that you made is nothing but pure propaganda – illogical, untrue and without any historical support.
Also your statement” … the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel. It isn’t referring to the already corrupted written books of the New and Old testament at that time which never came or been authenticated by Jesus or prophets before him, yet written by anonymous authors”- zaid; is again more entertaining propaganda. So you are now saying: not only is the Injeel (book of the Christians) corrupted but also the Torah (book of the Jews) at the time of Muhammad. You want to believe this (because of your blind faith, of course)
I hope you realize that what you are also saying is that at the time of Muhammad there were two different sets of Torah/Injeel; one set remembered in the heads of “THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” Sura 21:7; and another “corrupted written books of the New and Old testament at that time”. Your explanation is very CREATIVE but nonsensical.
Perhaps you would like to point out where are “..the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel” now. I believe you will say they are no longer around. That is very convenient for you as a Muslim. That way nobody is able to compare Muhammad’s message (the words of only one man) with what came before. We are stuck with the words of only one man. Convenient indeed.
John 5:31
If I (Jesus) alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. – ESV
Peace…. out
Sonlight quoted
Perhaps you would like to point out where are “..the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel” now…
My reply:
I should be asking, not you. Tell me where is the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel now?? Since you are the one who insist that they still exist.
You’ve failed to prove the authenticity of your bible. Your scriptures were written by anonymous authors and none of your books can be backdated to Jesus time. Even the language spoken by Jesus had extinct, I just can’t understand how you could believe on the authenticity of the scriptures that weren’t even written in Jesus or his disciples native language. Don’t tell me that Jesus disciples had no initiatives to record and preserve the words of Jesus in their own mother tongue.
Unlike Quran, when we are unclear of any translations in other language, we can conveniently revert back to the original text, ie Arabic, But Bible??? Your books came from chainless narrations, written by anonymous Tom, Dick and Harry. As I’ve mentioned, if such proofs are presented in court as evidences, it will be thrown out within 2 minutes.
Islam is Truth,
Peace.
Food for thoughts..
During the supposed time of Jesus there exist no Jewish writings referring to him..however, during the First and Second Revolts..the religion that had sprung up among the Hellenized and Romanized apostates and non Jewish Romans in Judea was definitely used against the Jewish people. For a more objective look at history and the beginnings of Christianity and the expulsion of the Jewish people from Judea and the Gallilee..
Christianity from it’s very beginnings was never unified in certain concepts.
The emperor Nerva (96?98 C.E.) freed the Christians from paying the Fiscus Judaicus, the Jewish capitation tax decreed as a punishment for the revolt of 66?73 C.E.
Clearly, the Romans already regarded the Christians as a separate religion group. The Temple treasury was raided in 66CE by the Roman governor of Judea, Florius and a massacre of Jews in Jerusalem took place. This set off the first revolt.
The early Christians did not take part in this..they had separated from the customs, beliefs and from the Jewish people themselves by this time. Note those dates please.
Christianity has never been a unified belief, from the earliest days of the Didache (instructions to the apostles on how to conduct church affairs) there were conflicts on how much Judaic influence should remain (was Jesus a god or not?) and it was often a very nasty affair. The Gnostics were largely killed off by their fellow Christians, but some Gnostic aspects do remain. A study of the Nag Hammadi library (translations from the Coptic are online) can help you discern this. Christianity really has little to do with Judaism. It’s a mixture of Roman and Greek mystery religions and focuses on death with Hebrew names and mistranslated texts.
Things that was once thought must have been fabricated outright was later discovered were beliefs of the ancient Greeks and Romans. This was the longstanding battle for souls going on..the Hellenized Jews, those who had become apostate to Judaism, desired to entice other Jews to worship as the Greeks that they believed superior in philosophy and knowledge, so they created texts that tried to say.. see this is what it was supposed to have been all along. However, reality was that those beliefs were identical to the beliefs and practices that the Torah demonized.
Once one begins an in-depth study of the religious practices and beliefs of all the peoples surrounding the Jews in the centuries just preceding the beginning of Christianity, one can see these developments take place. It was a concerted effort to do away with Israel and Judaism.
A large percentage of the early church father’s who became martyrs did so at the hands of their co-religionists of competing sects when Christianity was not so clearly defined as a tool of the Roman empire.
Any entity that would threaten Roman authority would be persecuted by the Romans. Early Christians ( a band of followers of a messiah hopeful would threaten Roman rule, since the prophetic vision of Judaism of “the messiah” is of a RULER, a king, who breaks the yolk of political oppression and persecution for all and brings about universal brotherhood, peace and knowledge of God) would most certainly have been a threat. But once the doctrine of the New Testament gelled, that changed the Tanakh concept of messiah meaning an anointed king, to mean a sacrifice for sin and a “kingdom” not of this world, this had effectively changed the Christians from being enemies of Rome to tools of Rome.
Thus began the conversion of the Romans!
Emperor Hadrian later attempted to wipe out Judaism after they revolted against the previous Emperor, Trajan. He built a Roman temple to Jupiter on top of the ruins of the old Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which had been destroyed in 70 CE, and burnt the Torah on top of the Temple Mount in 135 CE . This act set off the 2nd Revolt
In 135CE, after putting down the second major Jewish revolt against Rome, the Emperor Hadrian wanted to blot out the name of Judea and the presence of the Jews so he changed it to Provincia Syria Palaestina (ie the Latin version of the Greek term). This was later shortened to Palaestina, from which the modern ‘Palestine’ is derived.
According to noted historian, Thomas McCall, the name “Palestine” was not used until the early second century CE. The Romans continued the use of Judea and called the northern regions Galilee. McCall wrote: “When Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE., the Roman government struck a coin with the phrase ‘Judea Capta,’ meaning Judea has been captured. The term Palestine was never used in the early Roman designations.” After Bar Kochba’s unsuccessful second Jewish revolt against Rome in 135 CE, Emperor Hadrian ordered that all Jews be exiled from the Holy Land. “He took the name of the ancient enemies of Israel, the Philistines, Latinized it to Palestine, and applied it to the Land of Israel. He hoped to erase the name Israel from all memory.”
The name of the Philistines, a people that had historically been continually warring against the Jewish kingdoms, was chosen by Hadrian for the very purpose of insulting the Jews.There is an arch in Rome showing their capture of the Jewish kingdom and sacking the Temple .
The early followers of Jesus who had been awaiting his reincarnation separated themselves publicly from the Jews around the time of the 1st revolt, in the 2nd revolt they once *again* refused to ally themselves with the Jews and allied themselves to the Romans. This led to another ultimately failed messiah hopeful, Simeon Bar Kochba to view them as the enemies of Israel, thus, after the defeat of the Jews and the murder of Bar Kochba, the Chistians were *not* expelled along with the Jews.
After Constantine – First Christian Emperor of Rome (285-337 CE) the Roman empire was Christian.
A thumb down to actual history so quickly?
I challenge anyone to find an error of the objective historical record in my above narrative regarding the events I depict. Please provide the evidence. I trust that the historical records will support my answer very well.
edit: To address your additional details: The book of John, wirtten after the fact of the siege on Jerusalem and the murder of a million Jews, wasn’t a prophetic vision at all. (written between 90 – 120 CE)
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/jo…
As shown, the New Testament makes a habit throughout to remove “blame” from the Romans and fault the Jews for massacres of Jews and even displace accountability for the crucifixion of Jesus from the Romans onto a Sanhedrin “trial” that was written by someone who obviously knew nothing about the Sanhedrin. Pilate was even removed from his office for his cruelty, yet somehow in the NT he is afraid of the people he’s been murdering and crucifying to appease them? The Sanhedrin ( think US Supreme Court, but without authority under an occupation govt) is depicted as breaking almost every one of their own rules in the NT narrative, with no mention in any Jewish or Roman record of such events transpiring in the most literate part of the ME where enough records exist from that time to fill libraries on more mundane issues.
The Romans overthrew Jews because Jews rebelled and would not assimilate out of existence. The earliest Christians may have begun as a small band of Jewish rebels and enemies of Rome, but once it’s notion of messiah changed from a king who would break the yolk of political and religious persecution for all and rule Israel in peace to a sacrificed savior deity and a kingdom focusing on the afterlife to meld the Hellenized and Romanized concepts, Christians became an extension of Rome.
Peace.
To Zaid,
Your last two post does not address the point I mentioned; i.e. What you say contradicts the Quran (Sonlight, May 21st, 2010 at 4:51 am).
For everyone’s reference:
(Zaid -April 22, 2010 = Indeed during Muhammad’s time, there were still honest Jewish minorities who possess knowledge and spiritually obedient to the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel. It isn’t referring to the already corrupted written books of the New and Old testament at that time which never came or been authenticated by Jesus or prophets before him, yet written by anonymous authors.- zaid)
A further point I wish to highlight ( and ask you): The Jews had the Torah at the time of Muhammad. The Christians had the Injil (at the time of Muhammad). But Jews and Christians did not agree at that time. (If they agreed, they would not be two separate groups). Can you tell me who is more correct?
I suggest to you that the Christians are more correct because Christians call Jesus the Messiah. ( The Quran also refers to Jesus as the Messiah; is that not so? The Jews do not accept Jesus as a true prophet even, as Muslims do.)
Christians at the time of Muhammad believed in both the Torah and the Injil. (The Jews believed only in the Torah). So I feel it is correct to say that it is the Christians who had the more complete message at the the time of Muhammad compared to the Jews. (e.g. Christians and Muslims refer to Jesus as the Messiah but not the Jews).
So ( for discussion sake) as Allah (supposedly) had said:”Quran 21:7 -”Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men … If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7); who is it better to ask? The Jews (with Torah i.e. part of the message) or the Christians (who believe in the Torah and the Injil i.e more complete message) at the time of Muhammad.
The problem you have caused for yourself is this; the Quran refers to the Torah, Injil, Jews and Christians at the time of Muhammad.
“….ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7) can refer to Jews but it would make more sense if it referred to Christians (as the message the Jews possess is less complete). It is the Christians (not the Jews) who have both the Torah AND the Injil (the two messages the Quran refers to).
(Perhaps we can even say that the Jews do not possess the message at the time of Muhammad because the Messiah Jesus is not recognized by the Jews – as Christians and Muslims do – and so the Jews do not accept/possess his message.)
But you say that all true Christians had been killed by the time of Paul. Also, “(Zaid -April 22, 2010 = Indeed during Muhammad’s time, there were still honest Jewish minorities who possess knowledge and spiritually obedient to the true scriptures of the Torah & Injeel.)
Your reference here to the Injeel at the time of Muhammad completely does not make sense if Christians – the ones who believe in the Injeel – had all been killed. Please explain the existance/ appearance of the Injeel just before and at the time of Muhammad. (Looking forward to more of your CREATIVE explanations).
Just wanting you to explain another hole I see in your Islamic logic.
Peace…. out
There’s no TRUE Christians as you called being followers of Jesus. Jesus did not bring Christianity and never did anyone worship Jesus or the cross during his time. The Cross was invented after Jesus departed and no evidences that anyone before or during Jesus life had worship Jesus or preached about Trinity. Not even a single prophet before Jesus preached Trinity and prophecised Jesus as God. The followers of Jesus we called them Hawariyin, not Christians.
So “those who possess the message” does not refer to “Christianity” as message about Trinity, the Cross and Jesus Godship did never exist at any time before and during Jesus life. These were fabrications and invented by Paul backed by the Romans. How can Christianity be the true message since the sources of your books all came after Jesus. No one knew the true identity of these authors, and each authors contradict each other in their narrations. I’ve shown you in my last post, how revolts began and Jews were persecuted by the Romans, so much that the message brought by Jesus was distorted, modified and swayed from the true teachings of Monotheism, that God is One without any associates, not even with Jesus or Trinity.
I ask, where is your book written in Jesus native language, Aramaic? Don’t tell me that Jesus followers spoke Greek not Aramaic! Why none had wrote about Jesus, since literacy was already profound during Jesus life, especially among the Greeks.
Of course, you are manipulating my words saying the ALL Jesus true followers were persecuted and exalted, then asking me how can this be since Quran says “ask those who poessess the message”. It is definitely possible that some who knew the true message lived as they were not involved in any revolt or missionaries, hence no one recognized them. These are the ppl who are waiting for the Last Prophet Muhammad as written in their original Torah or Injeel, not following those false teachings preached by Paul or the Romans with their corrupted books.
Peace
Correction to my last post
….Of course, you are manipulating my words saying the ALL Jesus true followers were persecuted and “exalted”…
I should write “Jesus was exalted- Not Jews Exalted.)” Jesus exalted as one of Trinity above his human nature which is against monotheic beliefs.
Peace
Pre-Islam Jews and Christians of Arabia were awaiting a prophet.
Before the appearance of Muhammad, Arabia was home to Jews, Christians, and pagan Arabs who, on occasion, went to war with each other. The Jews and Christians would say: “The time has come for the unlettered prophet to appear who will revive the religion of Abraham. We will join his ranks and wage fierce war against you.” When Muhammad actually appeared, some of them believed in him, and some refused. This is why God revealed:
“And when there came to them a Book [Quran] from God confirming that which was with them – although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved – but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of God will be upon the disbelievers.” (Quran 2:89)
Pre Islamic Jews who “possess the message” are referring to those who remained truthful in their beliefs & testimonies.
———————————————————————————————
The first witness was Buhaira, the Christian monk, who recognized Muhammad’s prophethood when he was still young and told his uncle:
“…a great fortune lies before your nephew, so take him home quickly.”[4] (Buhaira monastery still exits in Basra today.)
———————————————————————————————
The second witness was Waraqah bin Nawfal, a Christian scholar who died soon after a solitary meeting with Muhammad. Waraqah attested Muhammad was the Prophet of his time and received revelation exactly like Moses and Jesus.[5]
———————————————————————————————–
The Jews of Medina were anxiously awaiting the arrival of a prophet. The third and fourth witnesses were their two famous Jewish rabbis, Abdullah bin Salam and Mukhayriq.[6]
The sixth and seventh witnesses were also Yemeni Jewish rabbis, Wahb ibn Munabbih, and Ka’b al-Ahbar (d. 656 CE). Ka’b found long passages of praise and the description of the Prophet prophesized by Moses in the Bible.[7]
So Sonlight, stop dreaming that God had directed Muhammad pbuh to ask “Those who possess the message” as applied to those who possess your already corrupted books.
Peace
Sonlight quoted:
Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
————————————————————————————————
My comments:
John 1:19-21:
This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I’m not the Christ.” They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No”.
From this conversation between John the Baptist and Jewish priests, we learn that the Jews are awaiting the coming of three distinct people: the Christ, Elijah, and the Prophet. We now know that Jesus was the Christ and Messiah whom the Jews denied but the Muslims later affirmed. This leaves Elijah and the Prophet. With respect to Elijah, it is believed by Jews and some Christians that he has not yet returned but will do so to announce the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
So who is The Prophet?
Even today the Jews are still awaiting his arrival and the Christians believe Jesus Christ was that Prophet. This latter assertion of Christians is impossible because it is clear from John 1:21 as well as John 1:25 that “The Prophet” is a separate and distinct person from Elijah and the Christ.
John 1:25 states
“Why than are you, John the Baptist, baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
The questioning priests were trying to identify whether John the Baptist was one of these three individuals. However, John denied he was the Christ, Elijah or the Prophet.
The knowledge of the coming of these three was known not only by Jewish priests but also ordinary Jews. This is supported by John 7:40-41 which clearly identifies the distinction that Jewish people are making with regard to Jesus of Nazareth.
John 7:40-41
Some of the people, therefore, when they heard these words were saying this certainly is the Prophet. Others were saying, ‘This is the Christ.’”
Hence, it is obvious the Prophet and the Christ are two separate and distinct person.
However when The Prophet appeared among Non Jews, ie, Muhammad pbuh, they denied him. (Exactly as you’ve quoted in QS 2:89)
So tell me, who is the Prophet that Bible foretold if not Muhammad pbuh? Please answer.
Islam is Truth.
To Zaid
You say:”Of course, you are manipulating my words saying the ALL Jesus true followers were persecuted and exalted, then asking me how can this be since Quran says “ask those who poessess the message”. It is definitely possible that some who knew the true message lived as they were not involved in any revolt or missionaries, hence no one recognized them. These are the ppl who are waiting for the Last Prophet Muhammad as written in their original Torah or Injeel, not following those false teachings preached by Paul or the Romans with their corrupted books.-zaid
May 22nd, 2010 at 9:34 am
Sonlight’s reply: Are you trying to mislead everybody? You said earlier :”I don’t understand how Christians could lay their trust on Paul’s writings after what this evil guy had done to persecute all Jesus true followers. For sure ALL jesus genuine follwers had been totally wiped off from this earth, before Paul started his new religion which is called “Christianity” today. – Zaid, March 11.
Surely it is obvious, I am not manipulating your words because I quote: “For sure ALL jesus genuine follwers had been totally wiped off from this earth, before Paul started his new religion which is called “Christianity” today. – Zaid, Marchh 11. I am only quoting you Zaid.
Then later you refer to persons at the time of Muhammad who were true to the teaching of the Torah and Injeel (who, I say, definitely cannot be Jews because Jews reject the Injeel). These persons must be the true followers of Jesus who possess both the message of the Torah and the Injeel.
So, I believe you realise you have (1)made an error or (2) have repeated the errors of other Muslim propagandist.
For surely you cannot have “….ALL jesus genuine follwers had been totally wiped off from this earth, before Paul ….” – Zaid, and then have “jesus genuine follwers” appear at the time of Muhammad (as the Quran seems to indicate).
Next I see you trying to change your story. “…It is definitely possible that some (followers of Jesus – Sonlight’s note)) who knew the true message lived as they were not involved in any revolt.” – Zaid. (Sonlight’s note : -So Paul did not succeed in wiping out all the followers of Jesus, is’nt it?)
Here I feel you are trying to confuse everyone (or are you yourself confused). Paul (a Jew) initially persecuted the followers of Jesus because the followers Jesus believed differently from the Jews. (The Romans were not in the picture.) The Romans later fought with the Jews because some Jews revolted. But you Zaid have in your past writing painted a false picture of Paul working with the Romans to go against the followers of Jesus. (Another example of your saying that Paul worked with the Romans is – “..fabrications and invented by Paul backed by the Romans.” – Zaid, May 22nd, 2010 at 9:34 am.
Actually if there are any fabrications, it is not by Paul but by Muslim propagandist like you who said: “….ALL jesus genuine follwers had been totally wiped off from this earth, before Paul ….” – Zaid. – and now you must change your story because the Quran seems to indicate”jesus genuine follwers” were around at the time of Muhammad.
Please do not change your story like flip-flop of Roti prata – Syukri’s expression -Apr 29th, 2010 at 2:32 am.
I hope all can see the hole in your Islamic logic.
Peace to all… out.
P.S I heard that the Roman emperor Nero persecuted the followers of Jesus. Perhaps you, Zaid will want to try to convince everyone that Paul (the Jew) was working with this Roman.
Sonlight,
I guess now you are capitalizing on my ‘errors’ on the choice of words, statements or opinions made by me. This is what we human are, our words and thoughts are bound to conceive errors, whether intentional or unintentional. However, I find this is Christians habit, word twisting, misquote and mistranslating. However so, I am representing myself and my words are my own responsibilities, not other Muslim brothers.
You capitalized on my comments that Jesus followers were totally wiped off. Yes, of course BASED ON MY WORDS WRITTEN you may perceived that none was spared. Well,, don’t you think that faith is inside your heart, such no one will recognized unless you spat it out? So, in the event that Paul, a former bounty hunter persecuted the Jews who were genuine Jesus followers, his objective was to propagate his false teachings with minimum threat and resistance. As a human himself, do you think he knows EVERYBODY who’s holding the true faith? He probably had missed plenty of them, but what his main concern was, his false teachings became the main stream and widespread. What’s more, he’s even successful in drawing the Romans who were anti Jews to embrace his false religion.
You should know very well about the Nicea Creed, Christianity history could have been different if the Unitarians have dominated the Trinitarians. Your religion is based on conjectures and opinions of those who’s intellectual skills are highly doubtful. You regard doubts as arguments, while your Bible scholars themselves admitted that there are abundants of verses or contents which are fabrications or false. Who are they to judge whether the words or verses are false? Why is you bible so mixed up with contradictions and fabrications? Who determines, guides or inspires these scholars. Even you Gospel writers were a bunch of uninspired and yet unknown individuals. Why did your bible needs to undergo constant revisions and editions? To correct God’s words?
I admit that there could be some truth in Bible, but not in its total entirety. That’s why I called it corrupted. Worshipping Jesus as GOD is the greatest FLAW in Christianity, which not a single prophet have ever preached or practice. What’s more, its against you own MONOTHEIC beliefs, that God is One, in Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence. How could Jesus fit into this criteria? Didn’t you ever ponder? You just try to make believe that God can do anything. Yes, but sorry God doesn’t need to be a human and sacrifiice Himself brutally for our sins.
Peace
Islam is Truth
P.S I heard that the Roman emperor Nero persecuted the followers of Jesus. Perhaps you, Zaid will want to try to convince everyone that Paul (the Jew) was working with this Roman.
————————————————————————————————
I should highlight on Constantine instead. You should read about his history and the poems he wrote after embracing Christianity. That even though he legitimized and embraced “Christianity”, he was still paying attention to his Pagan deities.
So what was his agenda of legitimizing and embracing Christianity? Well, its like getting another ‘INSURANCE” to cover his bases. Yet, after his Christian conversion, Constantine had never changed for the better. He remained with his brutality, killings and observing his pagan rites. So what was the purpose of Christianity if it doesn’t change one for the better?
Constantine was a consummate pragmatist and a consummate politician.He gauged well the upsurge in interest and support Christianity was receiving, and so played up to that very nicely and exported it in his own rule. But it’s clear that after he converted to Christianity he was still paying attention to other deities. You know this from his poems and from other dedications as well. So Christianity has evolved from pure monotheic belief, then emerged as Trinity belief, which Constantine finalized and legitimized. Reason, it was akinned to Romans Pagan beliefs of the Sun God with his Son, hence Constatntine saw the opportunity to capitalize in drawing major support from the Romans.
For sure, determining Jesus Godship and Trinity was a bloody affair, where Christians killed Christians, Jews killed Jews which finally Trinitarians triumph over Unitarians that made Christianity today. A real fact, not all Christians and Jews believed that Jesus is God. Imagine if the Unitarian had emerged as the Christian mainstream today. So could Jesus be God? Trinity is Pagan beliefs.
Peace
Now the quran is not a book of science??! According to you muslim preachers…
Hahaha! What a joke! When it suits you, its unscientific and then vice-versa. We fully understand when you speak and write with a twisted tongue.
Your fellow muslim propogandist and missionaries disagree and contradict you tragically, my missionary friend! Just visit Harun yahya’s site ‘miracles of the quran’ and see for yourself how the quran is supposedly ‘full of science and facts’! Likewise Zakir naik also says the same thing, and both of them contraridct your view about the quran.
Anyway, your proof of eye-witness from that indian royalty you quoted, is nothing more than highly questionable and doubtful. You must bring to us some REAL proofs, like testimonies of Non-Muslims and enemies -or those who are not friendly to islam, that can really corroborate the quran and hadith claims about muhd ‘splitting the moon’!
Only then can we consider your evidence corroborating. Otherwise, it is nothing more than circular reasoning that is worthless and is only more propoganda/dawaganda!
Why should we buy into the words of someone who converted into islam who ‘testified he saw the moon-splitting’ miracle?? This is nothing more than muslim propoganda.
Get us people who were NON-muslims, and who were hostile to islam, to also indicate the same kind of thing. THEN, and only then, can we say that the quran / hadith was confirmed Independantly.
To say with Harun yahya’s propoganda that quran has ‘many scientific facts’ is also an insult to one’s true intelligence!
Just 2 examples easily proves this :
1) Qur’an, in sura 18:86 states, “Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a people: We said: O Dhu al
Qarnayn…” The sun does not set in a muddy spring. There are no extraterrestrials living where the sun goes to bed, and no human – and that would include Alexander the Great – has ever visited with such creatures.
Now, does the SUN set in a pool of muddy water?? According to islam it really does:
Orthodox Islamic scholar Al-Zamakhshari remarks in his book, Al-Kash-shaf:
“Abu Dharr (one of Muhammad’s close companions) was with Muhammad during the sunset.
Muhammad asked him: ‘Do you know, O Abu Dharr where this sets?’ He answered: ‘God and His apostle know better.’ Muhammad said: ‘It sets in a spring of slimy water.’” (3rd Edition, Volume 2, p. 743, 1987)
Hence, Muhammad believed that the sun literally sets in a spring. In his book, The Lights of Revelation (p. 399), al-Baidawi indicates,
“The sun sets in a slimy spring; that is, a well which contains mud. Some of the readers of the Qur’an read it, ‘… a hot spring’, thus the spring combines the two
descriptions. It was said that Ibn ‘Abbas found Mu’awiya reading it (as) hot. He told him, ‘It is muddy.’ Mu’awiya sent to Ka’b al-Ahbar and asked him, ‘Where does the sun set?’
He said in water and mud and there were some people. So he agreed with the statement of Ibn al-’Abbas. And there was a man who composed a few verses of poetry about the setting of the sun in the slimy spring.”
Ibn Abbas, who was both a Sahabah and a cousin of Muhammad, also believed along with Ka’b al-Ahbar that the sun literally set in a muddy spring.
In Al-Jalalan’s Commentary, p. 251, we are told that the setting of the sun is in a well that contains murky mud. The same interpretation is given by al-Tabari in his
commentary (The History by Tabari, The Scientific Books, p. 339) as well as in the Concise Interpretation of al-Tabari (pt 2, p. 19) where he states that the well in which the sun sets “contains lime and murky mud”.
So, can YOU prove that the sun really sets in such a pool of mud?? Here on earth? How to believe in such foolishness in the quran!!?? Only by abandoning your mind and intellect, of Course.
2) In the continuing story of the Islamicized version of the Greek conqueror, we learn that Alexander’s power was given to him by Allah. Muslims contend, as the Hadith
confirms, that he was an Islamic prophet. He was even credited with building an enormous wall of iron and brass between two mountains, which was tall enough and wide enough to keep an entire army at bay. Muhammad claimed that a hole was cut in the wall during his lifetime. Yet it is simple to test these claims because Alexander lived in the full light of history. We know that he was a great general whose debauchery and drunkenness contributed to his untimely death. He was an idol-worshipper, actually claiming to be the son of the Egyptian god Amun.
The temple drawing depicting Alexander worshiping the sun god Amun is still present in Egypt. To say that he was an Islamic prophet, and that Allah was the agent for his power, is historically inaccurate. And why is there is no evidence anywhere that Alexander built a wall of iron and brass between two mountains, a feat which would have proven him to be one of the greatest builders and engineers in history? It’s one thing that the Qur’an has no prophecies – predictions of things that are to come – but it can’t even get the past right.
JUST WHERE is this ‘wall of iron and brass’ between two mountians?? It has never been found and is not a realy fact or truth of any kind.
No wonder all the reputable and REAL scholars and historians, NEVER USE al-quran as a source for truth. Especially as a source to study the life and ministry of Jesus Christ
realistically, historically and factually.
There is no way you can convince me-and Sonlght at least, that the ‘truth is in islam’! All the facts have proven otherwise!
Go and sell your islam to some 3 or 4 year old pre-kindergarten kids, maybe canlah!
Is Muhd a prophet mentioned in the Bible? Well, here is a comparison between Muhd and another ‘prophet..:
http://www.answering-
islam.org/Bahasa/RencanaBF/Kemiripan_Muhammad_dgn_JosephSmith.html
And here he is compared with a respected prophet of the Old testament:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bahasa/RencanaBF/MusaMuhdJelasBerbeda.html
Wassalaam, Mansur.
Mansur Othman konon. Sebenarnya Hamzah. Kalau pengecut janganlah ada hati nak berdebat dengan orang Islam. Memang bodoh hahaha. Engkau memang dah gila sebab baca penipuan answeringislam banyak sangat. Tengok style penulisan engkau aku dah tahu engkau Hamzah bodoh lagi pengecut.
Matahari terbenam itu hanyalah metaphor la bangang. Macam istilah ‘sunset’ dan ‘sunrise’ dalam bahasa Inggeris, bukan bermaksud matahari ‘terbit’ atau matahari ‘terbenam’ sebenarnya dari sudut sains, sebab sebenarnya bumi yang bergerak. Tapi tak ada orang kata sunset dan sunrise tu salah dari sudut bahasa. Orang Kristianlah yang bodoh sebab pakai Bible yang kata matahari mengelilingi bumi. Sebab itu Galileo dihukum oleh Gereja dan Inquisition.
Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that “And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place” Biblical references Psalm 93:1 Psalm 96:10 and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text (depending on the translation) stating that “the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved.” In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, “the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
Nak kata Quran tak saintifik, Bible lagi merapu dan tak saintifik. Lepas tu paksa orang percaya dan hukum Galilieo. Kalau kau nak tahu, Galileo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo ambil idea ini dari Copernicus dan kalau kau nak tahu, Copernicus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus ambil idea ini dari orang ISLAM yang bernama AL BATTANI . Maknanya orang Islam dari awal lagi telah menerima hakikat bumi mengelilingi matahari sebab mereka mengkaji astronomi untuk tentukan arah kiblat dari kawasan luar dari Arabia. Islam tak pernah hukum orang kata matahari kelilingi bumi, malah menerimanya. Wiki mengatakan tentang AL BATTANI: One of his best-known achievements in astronomy was the determination of the solar year as being 365 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes and 24 seconds. His work, the Zij http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zij influenced great European astronomers like Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, etc. Nicholas C-O-P-E-R-N-I-C-U-S repeated what Al-Battani wrote nearly 700 years before him as the Zij was translated into Latin thrice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Battani
( p/s, aku jumpa info ini dari History Channel tentang Sains dan Islam )
Ni satu lagi kebodohan Hamzah aka Othman. (Mereka memang suka tukar nama sebab tak ada pendirian. Macam agama dan kitab mereka juga. Boleh berubah-ubah. Tuhan mereka pun sekejap anak sekejap bapak. Sekejap hidup, sekejap mati.) Siapa kata Zulkarnain tu Alexander? Kalau dia sembah berhala, sudah tentu dia bukanlah orang yang dimaksudkan oleh Al Quran. Nama Alexander atau Iskandar tak ada disebut pun dalam Quran. Macammana engkau pandai2 kata Zulkarnain tu Iskandar?
Ada sesetengah fakta Al Quran masih belum ditemui. It’s just the matter of time. Macam kes Haman, menteri ( vizier ) Firaun. Dalam Bible, tidak ada kisah Haman menteri Firaun lansung, hanya ada Haman menteri kepada Raja Parsi, Ahaserus. Orang Kristian menuduh Quran ciplak cerita dari Bible. Tapi Haman menteri Firaun tak ada dalam Bible. Mana Quran dapat fakta ini?
Hanya baru2 ini orang telah menemui patung H-M-N atau Haman/Hemon/Hemiunu yang merujuknya sebagai menteri dan arkitek pembinaan ( vizier and architect ) kepada Firaun. Ini membuktikan Quran benar dan bukan ciplak dari Bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemon
Quran dapat fakta dari ALLAH. Muhammad tidak pernah pergi ke Mesir atau belajar , atau menggali kubur di sana. Allah yang memberitahunya kerana Allah maha mendengar dan maha melihat.
28:38 Pharaoh said: “O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself: therefore, O HAMAN! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!” Al Quran
40:36 Pharaoh said: “O HAMAN! Build me a lofty palace, that I may attain the ways and means- Al Quran
KAMARUZZAMAN
Fakta tentang Haman beserta gambar dan bukti saintifik dari sumber Islam dan barat.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/haman.html
Salam to all,
Very interesting fact.The Swiss politician Daniel Streich, who rose to fame as a result of his opposition to mosques in his homeland, has now embraced the faith he reviled.
Daniel Streich was a member of then Swiss People’s Party (SVP) in Switzerland. A well-known politician, Streich led the calls for a ban on minarets across Switzerland. He was active in building anti-Muslim sentiments throughout Switzerland. This sustained campaign led to him being given a high ranking position in the Swiss Army.
Funny I can’t get this fact from world leading new agency like CNN, BBC etc. This one below is from German language news.
http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/story/27286120
Syukri
hamzah hamzah,
Kebodohan engkau makin terserlah rupanye. Mansur Othman KONON. HAHAHA. Syabas Bro Kamaruzzaman bagi jawapan awak yang tersusun rapi lagi masuk akal itu. Bangau Bangau Pengecut seperti “Othman Hamzah” kita ni cuma pandai mencaci sahaja bila dah tak boleh menjawab.
hamzah, mana fakta khayalan kau mengenai orang Melayu kristian tu? Sampai sekarang aku masih menantikannye. Kalau kau tak dapat kemuka kannye, kau bukan saja Begap malah kau pun adalah seorang PENIPU juga rupanye!
To all Christians, thanks for having us all here but I do hope there will not be many of you like hamzah the liar. When he can’t provide us with the answers, he starts to bash Islam with baseless “facts”. Is this the proper way of spreading the “Good News”? This is after all a Christian’s blog and you should welcome us by being a good host in answering our questions graciously to convince us more. Peace to you all now.
To Zaid,
You say:”I ask, where is your book written in Jesus native language, Aramaic? Don’t tell me that Jesus followers spoke Greek not Aramaic! Why none had wrote about Jesus, since literacy was already profound during Jesus life, especially among the Greeks.” – Zaid,May 22th.
I believe, here, you are just expressing your opinion. I shall give mine through an example.
There was a time in Singapore when Hokkien was commonly spoken. But if I wanted to address all the Chinese people today, I would be better off writing in Mandarin as that is the official language of a billion people (and more) even though I may be Hokkien by dialect.
I am no academic, but my impression of Aramaic is that it is even less widespread than Hokkien (not to mention Mandarin).
The view in Christian thinking is therefore reasonable that the first followers of Jesus wrote in Greek because that way the message of Jesus would have a wider audience. The first followers of Jesus wanted to follow Jesus instructions to make disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28:19).
Certain objections may be brought up such as certain parts of the New Testament has a high standard of Greek. (FYI I have read that the Greek of Peter is more basic.) But I feel these objections do not hold water. How can you be certain that the first followers of Jesus were not effectively bi- or even tri-lingual. In Singapore I have come across Malaysian workers who speak Chinese well (because they are Chinese by race) as well as Malay well ( because it is to their benefit to do so since they are from Malaysia) and English well (well enough to be employed as front-line staff to answer questions from the English speaking public in Singapore).
The region in which Jesus lived was (like Singapore) a multi – cultural world.
The reason why you, Zaid, suggest that there is something wrong with having the New Testament written in Greek rather than Aramaic, is because it is part of your Islamic propaganda to discredit the Christian message.
Peace… out.
To the one who calls himself “Hamzah Bodoh Sombong Lagi Bengap rupanye”
My first suggestion is that you get a decent nickname. My previous nickname -” Truth and light from the Son” – I felt was too long.
You say :”When he (Hamzah) can’t provide us with the answers, he starts to bash Islam with baseless “facts”.- May 24th, 2010 at 12:44 pm.
You cannot, of course admit that what Hamzah says is true. If you did, you would have to abandon Islam. Whatever Hamzah says that are unpleasant to your ears, Muslims can easily condemn as lies.
It is strange that you should use the word “facts”. If you have been following the writing of Syukri, you would have come across his saying – Might is Right ( meaning -The WEST is mighty and therefore have rewritten history – as I understand Syukri).
Whatever FACTS or HISTORY that Hamzah or myself appeal to, you can just declare as lies and ignore if it puts Islam, the Quran or Muhammad in a bad light.
Islam is a world of its own. Facts or history is true only if Islam says that it is true. So Muslims asking me to produce facts is a good joke. You will not accept the facts I produce. e.g.
Muslims often mention the anonymous authors of the Bible. The reality is there are books in the New Testament with the names of the writers clearly written e.g. – (1 Peter 1:1)(James 1:1) (Titus 1:1). (Some are less clear)
But when I pointed this out to another Muslim in my past writings, I was next asked to prove its authenticity.
So Muslims can just declare the writings in the Bible as fabricated/corrupted if it conflicts with Islam.
The reality is: there are Muslims who just do not want to see. That is their loss. But there are some who do – e.g.
http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/
You say :”This is after all a Christian’s blog and you should welcome us by being a good host in answering our questions graciously…..”
My reply to Muslims is – ‘Are your questions sincere?’
Peace… out
Hi Sonlight!
Alright, I agree with you. I shall take your advice concerning my long nick name. To that, you can just call me Hamzah Bongok. In the same note now, I guess I will just make it simple too by calling you, son. Deal?
Alright, listen here son, let me address this.
I’ve said:
When he (Hamzah) can’t provide us with the answers, he starts to bash Islam with baseless “facts”
Then you said:
You cannot, of course admit that what Hamzah says is true….
It is strange that you should use the word “facts”
Now that you have revealed you are a Hokkien by dialect, I take it that you don’t have a slightest clue what was said between your dearest hamzah and me. Otherwise, you know that those statements you’ve made up there will only make you look,well,what else can I say but, stupid.
For your own benefit now, I will loosely translate for you what “fact” he has fantasized to make this stupendous baseless claim.
This was what your dearest hamzah have said to me:
Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini, sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian.. – hamzah, Feb 7th 2010
Translatation:
Among the Malays in the Muslim world today, there is a BIG portion of them who are christians…
Ok, fair enough, I gave him the benefit of the doubt so I have asked him to bring forward the evidence to his claim that THERE IS A BIG PORTION OF MALAYS WHO ARE CHRISTIANS. I have asked for the statistics from the governments of the countries that have Malays in them to prove to me of this claim is true.
And you know what son? Up till now he can’t even bring me one. NOT EVEN ONE. So where is this “fact” now? It is no miracle claims that I have asked for the facts from. It is a simple straight forward secular evidence that I am asking for. It seems to me he is fantasizing or rather, lied about it. And you son, have been a sucker for this liar.
Until he can bring the evidence, you are damn right to say that I of course cannot admit that what hamzah says is true. Or do you still want me to believe in someone who can shamelessly make baseless claims is saying the truth? Or is it typical of you christians to just believe what you want to hear? Maybe you can help him out in finding out for me if what he say is true. And please post these facts that I have asked for in this blog. Peace to you now son.
PS. My question regarding his baseless “fact” above is sincere and I am still waiting for it.
To the one who calls himself “Hamzah Bongok.”
Thank you for your translation.(Saya hanya cakap PASAR MALAY). Saya tak faham kenapa Hamzah telah kata ada “sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian”. I prefer to use statistics as it is less open to dispute. (Words such as BESAR atau KECHIL are less exact.)
From Wiki: on the topic INDONESIA (population 206 million – 2000 census) – 8.7 % of the people are Christians.(i.e 17.9 million Christians) ( Even if you take away the 1% of the Chinese Indonesian who may be largely Christian, that still leaves 15 million ‘Malay’ Christians).
I use the term ‘Malay’ loosely. Different groups of people define the term ‘Malay’ differently.
Anthroplogist , as I understand, include the Filipinoes as under the term ‘Malay’. For the anthropologist it is a scientific term. Since 80% of the Filipinoes are Roman Catholics (please WIKI), it can appear as if there were 87 million ‘Malay Christians’ in the region (i.e. 72 million RC Filipinoes and 15 million Indonesian ‘Malay’ Christians). So I can see why Hamzah said”"sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian” though I am not sure of his purpose in doing so.
I remember coming across a view or definition (probably from Malaysia) that a person is Malay if he speaks the Malay language and is a Muslim. By this definition there are no Malay Christians because a Malay person ceases to be Malay the moment he leaves Islam. This definition also allows the possibility of a person without a Malay father to be considered Malay by groups in Malaysia.
This discussion about the term ‘Malay’ is not a priority with me.
I can understand Hamzah’s reasoning (though my style is not to go in that direction.) My reply I believe, will show that Hamzah is not a liar in this case. It is just a question of definitions.
After giving my two-cents worth, I shall leave it at that.
peace… out.
To the one who calls himself “Sonlight”,
Thank you for your 2 cents there and also the wiki info that you have published in here. And here is mine now to wrap this issue up.
You have missed out the point here son. This issue may not be a priority to you but it is to me. It will just prove to my point on what I have to say. I am putting to you that hamzah is such an unreliable and deceiving source to be taken seriously. You have proved it yourself in your reply to me through the wiki info that you have shared here.
He said there is a BIG PORTION. And you published that in Indonesia there is a 8.7% of the people are Christians as according to wiki.
Tell me son, do you seriously think that 8.7% is really a BIG percentage? If you still think it is because it reflects in millions after the calculation, try scoring any exams in the world with that percentage and see if you can pass the paper. Don’t confuse yourself with these small numbers reflected in millions. The percentage never lies in telling of the proportion.
If you insist that hamzah is not a liar in this because he may have his own interpretation of what BIG PORTION means, then I can safely say that you have indirectly admitted that he is an idiot when it comes to math. Even a primary school children will know that 8.7% is a puny portion.
You have tried to defend him by roping in the Malay race as the whole. But it just makes it worse for you son. Even if you drag in the Filipinos as Malays, remember this, he mentioned:
Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini,
Meaning:
Among the MALAYS in the MUSLIM WORLD TODAY
Do you consider the Filipinos as being in the Muslim world? If you do, then the whole world is a Muslim world then. Or do you consider Philippines as a Muslim country? You said it yourself that “80% of the Filipinoes are Roman Catholics (please WIKI)”.
Unless you are such a simple minded person too on not being able to see it, you know very well where he is going with this statement.
You know it yourself son because you did mentioned that:
“IT CAN APPEAR AS IF there were 87 million ‘Malay Christians’ in the region” – Sonlight
Do not be dodgy in your answers son. It only reflects all the more the deceiving nature of you guys when faced with hard facts. And that is the point I am making here. And that point has been proven time and again.
Peace to you now.
To the one who told me to refer to him as ‘Hamzah Bongok’
You say:”I am putting to you that hamzah is such an unreliable and deceiving source to be taken seriously…” May 26th, 2010 at 3:34 pm.
I am not surprised that you would want to discredit Hamzah. I was never a Muslim. Hamzah, I believe, was. So what Hamzah says, I believe, will carry more weight with more people than what I have to say because he speaks as an ex-Muslim (someone who was once inside Islam.) His knowledge of Islam is better than mine, I believe.
There are other matters that Hamzah has written about. Muslims have tried to attack his ‘facts’ with their own set of ‘facts’.
I wish to mention this now because of a video I saw some time back.
In it I heard a Christian speaker say that it is in traditional Islamic belief that anyone who leaves Islam is to be killed. To this Shabir Ally ( -I believe, you know who he is.) replied that this saying is from the Hadith. And since this saying is from the Hadith (and not the Quran) it is open to interpretation. (That is as best as I can remember the video.)
Also I heard there is a verse in the Quran that says ‘there is no compulsion in religion’. But Muslims have pointed to verses in the Quran that talks about fighting unbelievers ( which seems to suggest compulsion in religion).
I have brought up the last two examples to show, what I see as, no definite universal stand within Islam on a number of issues.
My next example touches on Zaid’s reference to Muhammad’s supposed splitting of the moon. I refer to WIKI – ‘splitting of moon – “Dissenting commentators who do not accept the miracle narration such as Hasan al-Basri (d. 110 H.) and ‘Ata al-Khurasani (d. 135 H.) believe that the verse only refers to the splitting of the moon at the day of judgment. Likewise, M. A. S. Abdel Haleem writes:
The Arabic uses the past tense, as if that Day were already here, to help the reader/listener imagine how it will be. Some traditional commentators hold the view that this describes an actual event at the time of the Prophet, but it clearly refers to the end of the world. ” – WIKI.
So there are Muslims who think that the moon was not split (i.e. that Muhammad did not do this miracle in the past)
I believe you (and other Muslims) think you are bringing up good points and ‘hards facts’ ( to use your term). But the above I have written shows Islam’s stand on certain issues is not clear. Even the supposed miracle of Muhammad (i.e the supposed splitting of the moon) is not accepted by all Muslims as a ‘hard fact’.
I say now that it would be good if Zaid (and other Muslims) try to convince all Muslims FIRST that Muhammad split the moon before he attempts to convince Christians that Muhammad split the moon. (FYI -There is no doubt in Christian circles that Lord Jesus did miracles).
Many of the things that Hamzah has mentioned about Islam I have come across before. Should some Muslims suggest that anything Hamzah says are fabrications, I suggest to you that (as far as I can tell) Hamzah often refers to the Quran and Hadith.
Just because some Muslims have not come across this stories/views/opinions before or do not accept these views/opinions/stories (because these are from a different Islamic tradition/school perhaps) does not prevent these views/stories/opinions from circulating with Islamic circles as true or ‘hard facts’.
From what I have just written, I guess some people will understand why Christians have difficulty accepting ‘hard facts’ ( such as the supposed splitting of the moon by Muhammad) presented by Muslims in the Muslim’s attempt to prove Islam true.
Peace…out
Son,
You are so in denial that you try to deviate my point now. Either if your dearest hamzah is an ex-Muslim or not, a deceiver will always be a deceiver. And you son, is an advocate of one. That is a fact. Anyone can see that you have tried so hard to defend him. You just can’t admit to the fact that he exagerates can’t you?
Simple question I am going to ask you again now.
Yes or No is 8.7% a BIG portion?
Please post your answer in your next reply.
Don’t lie to yourself because it will only make things worse. We welcome good mannered and honest people (i.e. Emmanuel) for debates but I am putting to you again now that a deceiver like hamzah can never be taken seriously for one. If he can exagerate such simple things, only God knows how many others that he has already done so. That is the statement I am making.
Peace to you now
To the one who refers to himself as ‘Hamzah Bodoh Sombong Lagi Bengap rupanye”
I find it strange that you should say:”We welcome good mannered and honest people (i.e. Emmanuel) for debates..” .
You do not even have the decency to refer to yourself with a sensible nickname but use a nickname that is an insult to Hamzah. Your mentioning good manners seems to me hypocritical. There was also another Muslim who earlier referred to himself with ‘Idiotic Sonlight the clown’ which is supposed to be an insult to me, I guess.
I also refer you to MUHAAMAD, Oct 8th, 2009 at 11:36 pm – “… Allah lagi powerful lah sial.”
I did not want to copy and paste his vulgarities. (Perhaps I was mistaken since my understanding of Malay is not as good as yours. But you can refer to the post yourself to check)
Is this how Muslims refer to those of other religions. Granted that there are persons here (i.e ex-Muslims) who state their views on Islam and why they left it ( which Muslims may find offensive) but I ask ” What do you expect?”. This is a Christian web-site, is it not. What do you expect ex-Muslims to say?
As to your question: “Yes or No is 8.7% a BIG portion?”, I have already said that BESAR atau KECHIL is not exact and that this earlier mentioned topic touches on DEFINITIONS. Since Hamzah used the word BESAR he should explain what he means rather than me.
Also you say:”It only reflects all the more the deceiving nature of you guys…”.
I wish to point out to you (as best as I can remember) that it was the “good mannered and honest” Emmanuel (to use your expression) who referred to the Islamic belief known as “Taqiyya”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvlvS2a2AVE&feature=related
So it seems odd to me that you should accuse Christians of deceiving.
peace…out
Sonlight quoted.
From what I have just written, I guess some people will understand why Christians have difficulty accepting ‘hard facts’ ( such as the supposed splitting of the moon by Muhammad) presented by Muslims in the Muslim’s attempt to prove Islam true.
———————————————————————————————————————
My comments:
I guess you are wrong if you think I tried to use prophet Muhammad’s miracles to prove Islam true. As much as non Muslims denial about these miracles, my main point in highlighting them is, if non Muslims claim that Prophet Muhammad’s miracles are questionable and only based on circular reasonings, then what about Christians claims on Jesus miracles? Anyone of you witnessed them? For those souls revived by Jesus pbuh, were they alive till today to testify and spread Jesus message? So I was only hinting that we should not resort to quoting such points to prove the Truth. To say that if you can lay your beliefs on Jesus miracles just by quoting Bible, why then Islam has to prove scientifically about Muhammad’s pbuh miracles.
I simply feel weird the way how you guys weigh the truth when comparing Christianity with others.
Many times too I’ve mentioned to you, why need to quote ex-muslims testimonies to support your arguments? Didn’t I ever suggest you to discuss your Bible and my Quran point to point to show the Truth? But many points that I highlighted to you about Islam or Christianity, or when I posted my responses to your mistranslations on Quran verses, you simply chose to ignore. You trust Hamzah’s words saying that he knows Islam better than you, don’t you ever think that possibly we are even better than him? I’ve noticed of your habits, that when you are not able to response logically or rationally to the Muslim points, you simply alleged that those are Islamic propaganda.
I wish to emphasize here, I don’t believe any religion teaches us bad, not Islam, Christianity, Buddhism nor any others, but there’s always people who misuse the name of religion to support their evil agendas. Those who created terror out of religion are lost, misguided, has or has been led astray out of their own ignorance.
However so, my faith in Islam is because of its pure monotheistic beliefs, that God is One, none other than Him. Isn’t it also mentioned in your Torah of this same verse? Didn’t prophets befoe Jesus brought the same message through? So who said Trinity is the truth hence we should worship Jesus. Paul? Constantine? Who were they to decide that Jesus is God and that the Unitarians like Arianism and Ebionites were wrong? Did God inspire them?
Frankly speaking, early Jesus followers and some Jews had never regarded Jesus as God. None ever did until many years after Jesus, that your self proclaimed apostle Paul Tarsus claimed he had a vision, hence Trinity was invented.
Can you prove that the Jews during Jesus life up till before Paul began his preaching, had been worshipping Jesus and the cross? Truth is NONE ever did, and none of the other prophets ever did too. Even Jesus himself had never said I AM GOD, so worship me.
Can’t you see the Truth?
Peace
Son,
you just don’t give up don’t you?
Let me reason to you first on why the nick name. Listen here close and LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY NOW. Let me tell you this:
IT’S THE ONLY LANGUAGE THAT HAMZAH SPEAKS AND UNDERSTANDS. AND ITS CALLED: ILL MANNERISM.
I will need to speak in his special language in order to make him understand. Otherwise, it will just be like talking to the wall. If you were to follow his replies in this post and the previous ones towards other Muslims, understand the Malay language fully, you will know where I am coming from. You will see that he has FREELY USED the word BODOH among other “RESPECTFUL” words like as if they are compulsory adjectives. So, go correct that brother in christ of yours first before telling me about all this hypocritical issues.
Secondly, you don’t keep to your words don’t you? What ever happens to:
“After giving my two-cents worth, I shall leave it at that.” – Sonlight May 26th, 2010 at 4:49 am ?
It just goes to show that you only say things that will somehow make you look good but don’t really mean it. And wanting to win at all cost even the if the facts are against you. THIS AGAIN JUST REFLECTS TO YOUR NATURE.
Thirdly now,
YOU ARE EVER BEING DODGY. Your failure to respond with either a Yes or No answer to my question just goes to show that you will never admit to the real HARD FACTS that is against you. Remember, it is you who have published the 8.7%. Not me. It is just so typical of you guys. So typical.
So it seems odd to me that you should accuse Christians of deceiving. – Sonlight
So what is so odd about it now? It is never odd.
My point has always been clear son. I have brought up with the facts you have gathered to show that HAMZAH IS SUCH AN UNRELIABLE, DECEIVING AND ILL MANNERED INDIVIDUAL to ever be engaged in a civilized manner debate. And that is a FACT. Your attempt to rescue his reputation is futile. Don’t drag yourself down with him son. That is my advise to you. You have so far done quite ok and in fact better than him. Keep it that way.
I am going to make good of my word now. I will leave this issue as it is as Bro Zaid has a much better discussion going on and I do not wish to interrupt. Besides, it is in fact you are the one who raised up this issue when you asked me first on May 25th, 2010 at 5:22 am. I will understand if you still reply to this post. It is so you if you do just that
Please carry on with Bro Zaid and Peace to you now Bro.
Jewish movement which deny Paul’s Trinity Doctrine.
————————————————–
“Ebionim” the original Jesus movement as it existed separate from Saint Paul and the evolution of Graeco-Roman Christianity outside of Israel. During the three years of Jesus’ ministry, the Ebionim probably mostly identified themselves simply as Jews who accepted Jesus’ leadership for ushering in the Kingdom of God. Occasionally, they used the terms “Ebionim”, “Notzrim” (Nazarenes/Nazoreans/Nazirites), and “followers of The Way”. These terms continued to be in use by them after Jesus’ death, and grew in usage as the movement had to be distinguished from the Graeco-Roman movement that came to be known as “Christianity”. The Ebionim were active until the early fourth century CE, as attested by a number of opposing Christian writers.
The Ebionim were Torah-observant and opposed the Graeco-Roman anti-Jewish dogmas introduced as the Jesus movement spread outside of Israel.
Trinity Spread By The Sword.
——————————–
Paul started preaching more than ten years after Jesus’ death and had never actually met Jesus in the flesh. His notion that Salvation is only for those who confess Jesus as the Messiah evolved in the hands of the Roman empire into one of the most oppresive dogmas in history. Millions have died as a result of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, and the forced Christianization in the Americas; All in the “name of the cross”.
The Jewish people (those who were part of the Jesus movement as well as those who were not) rejected the anti-Torah teachings of Paul, that:
1- salvation comes exclusively by confessing Jesus as Messiah. The Torah teaches that Salvation comes only from God, not Messiah.
2- God’s Commandments are now invalid for Salvation. The Torah teaches that the validity of the Commandments is eternal.
3- salvation thru Jesus was enabled by Jesus’ blood as Atonement. Torah teaches that, for Atonement, human sacrifice is not acceptable, nor is a Lamb’s sacrifice even necessary.
Although these teachings of Paul were rejected by the Jewish people, they took hold among non-Jews in the Graeco-Roman cities, incorporating additional anti-Torah or even anti-Jewish ideas. Between 70 and 100 CE the non-Jewish communities outside of Israel already started:
4- blaming the Jews as a whole for Jesus’ death. History shows cleary that the vast majority of Jews had no part in Jesus’ death.
5- defying Jesus and attempting to describe God. The Torah tells us that God created all that we know, hence can not be described in terms of this world (e.g. “Moschiach/Annointed” or “Trinity”, etc).
PS: I found this from Ebionim.org website. Isn’t Torah suppose to confirm about Jesus Godship and Divinity?
Peace
To Zaid,
You say:”zaid, May 28th, 2010 at 9:03 am
“…. As much as non Muslims denial about these miracles, my main point in highlighting them is, if non Muslims claim that Prophet Muhammad’s miracles are questionable and only based on circular reasonings, then what about Christians claims on Jesus miracles?….. So I was only hinting that we should not resort to quoting such points to prove the Truth. To say that if you can lay your beliefs on Jesus miracles just by quoting Bible, why then Islam has to prove scientifically about Muhammad’s pbuh miracles.
I simply feel weird the way how you guys weigh the truth when comparing Christianity with others.” – Zaid.
Thank you for your honest opinion. I shall respond now with my own.
With regards to your statement: “I simply feel weird the way how you guys weigh the truth when comparing Christianity with others.” – Zaid.”, I wish to state that, in my opinion, the way I see myself speaking to a Buddhist/Hindu is not the same as the way I (or other Christians ) speak to a Muslim.
The reason, as I see it, is this: I feel Muslims are at a disadvantage when Muslims try to speak to Christians about Islam.
Your statement above is an example.
You say:”To say that if you can lay your beliefs on Jesus miracles just by quoting Bible, why then Islam has to prove scientifically about Muhammad’s pbuh miracles.’ – Zaid
My reply is this: Christians may try to convince HINDUS that Jesus did miracles but Christians do not need to convince Muslims that Jesus did miracles. Christians only say to Muslims (as a reminder) that Jesus did miracles because a Muslim MUST believe that Jesus (as a prophet) did miracles. There was never a need for the Christian to prove to the Muslim that Jesus did miracles.
So any Muslim who thinks that I (a Christian) was trying to convince Muslims that Jesus did miracles “just by quoting Bible ” or ” prove scientifically ” as you say, is mistaken.
If Jesus did miracles (which is an indication that there was something supernatural involved) the next logical question is : ‘What miracles did Muhammad do to indicate that he was a prophet?’
From previous writings by Muslims on this blog site, we know that there are stories , circulating in the Islamic world, about Muhammad’s supposed miracles. However we are also aware (as the ‘splitting of the moon’ issue clearly shows) disagreements and doubts within the Islamic world about the supposed miracles of Muhammad (or that he even did any). The only miracle that all Muslims, I believe, will agree is the supposed miracle of the Quran being reveal to Muhammad.
(I do not feel a need to comment on this supposed miracle presently)
You say: “… So I was only hinting that we should not resort to quoting such points to prove the Truth.” – Zaid ( “such points’ – as I understand to mean referring to miracles mentioned in our holy books or traditions).
I disagree with you here. Christians can point to the miracles of Jesus “to prove the Truth” (and we Christians all agree on them). ( John 10:38 )
Muslims, I feel, cannot point to the miracles of Muhammad “to prove the Truth” because you do not all agree on them or that he even did any ( other than the’miracle’ of the Quran, possibly).
Correct if I am wrong, but I have the impression that a person can be accepted as a Muslim even if he does not believe that Muhammad did even one miracle ( other than the ‘miracle’ of the Quran, of course)
There are other ‘disadvantages’ for Islam I am thinking about. I am leaving it for another day, God-willing.
Peace… out
Sonlight quoted:
I disagree with you here. Christians can point to the miracles of Jesus “to prove the Truth” (and we Christians all agree on them). ( John 10:38 )
Muslims, I feel, cannot point to the miracles of Muhammad “to prove the Truth” because you do not all agree on them or that he even did any ( other than the’miracle’ of the Quran, possibly).
My reply:
Miracles are not main factors as the ultimate proof or sign of Islamic truth. In Islam we believed that religion is a guidance (for all mankind) as mentioned in the hadith of Muhammad pbuh ie: “Ad-diinu nasihat”. Our religion does not rely compulsorily on faith in miracles to make one a Muslim. We believed miracles happened with the Will of God, based on the circumstances, traditions and culture practiced by the respective communities of the prophets.
For the case of Muhammad pbuh, it is well known that the Arabs during lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh reached the summit of eloquence and artistry of speech; and it is known as well that those Arabs were the most aggressive and motivated opponents to the message of Islam. Hence Quran was revealed with the purest and highest level of Arabic speech for it was uttered by an Arab in a pure Arabic society and challenged by the most eloquent Arabs who mentioned none of its alleged errors.
———————————————————————————————————————–
Sonlight Quoted:
Correct if I am wrong, but I have the impression that a person can be accepted as a Muslim even if he does not believe that Muhammad did even one miracle ( other than the ‘miracle’ of the Quran, of course)
My Reply:
We do not rely on Muhammad’s pbuh miracles as validity to our Islamic faith. The base of being a Muslim is the syahadah, i.e, That God Allah is One, no associates and Muhammad pbuh is Allah’s messenger. Islamic scholars may have different opinions and views on miracles performed by Muhammad pbuh based hadith narrations, as the hadiths narrated by Muhammad pbuh companions are thoroughly studied and scrutinized of its authenticity. The main focus of Islam, is to lead a decent life, worshipping One God and that Salvation is based of good deeds. Islam believes in a fair system, that one gets punishment or rewards based on their deeds. However, God is most merciful and forgiving, that the Door of Repentance is always open as long as one is sincere in it, that God shall grant him true salvation. However God shall not forgive the sins of one did unto others, until one seek forgiveness and granted by the one he oppressed or victimized.
Hence, believing in miracles is not the core foundation of Islamic faith or may discredit the validity of one being a Muslim. There’s no superiority of one prophet to another based on how great his miracles were. Miracles were granted by God for a valid cause and to serve a purpose in confronting or counter attacking the non believers during the respective prophets’ time. So for each circumstances, it differs for each prophet.
In Islam, a Muslim is obliged to abide by the Five Pillars of Islam and the Six Rules of Iman (Islam faith) which are compulsory for ALL muslims. Islam is not just a religion, but a way of life as God, the Creator knows what is best for us and Quran is the ultimate solutions when we are faced with problems, conflicts or difficulties. That is why we have the Syariah laws based on the Quran & Hadith. Syariah Law has been practiced to govern a state during Islamic reign and some has been adopted and retained by several European countries even after the declined of Islamic state.
As a summary, I reiterate that Islam is a religion of guidance and is a Way of Life. It drills into the everyday matters faced by mankind and provides solutions to mankind in every aspect of life for indiviuals, community or state. God mentions in the Quran, the importance of a Miuslim maintaining excellent relationship among mankind, as similar to the importance of one’s relationship to the Creator. The severity if one kills another innocent soul, is like killing the entire mankind.
Look at the Christian dominating countries now. Can’t you notice the unbearable and uncontrollable social hazards, problems, poor and declining morality of their communities? So what solutions have Christianity provide in Christians way of life?
Peace
Islam is the way of life.
To Zaid,
I was drawn to this issue of miracles because of your reference to Muhammad’s supposed ‘splitting of the moon’. By your referring to it ( and your follow-up with the supposed witness of Indian royalty) I took it that it was your intention to ‘prove Islam is true’ by using miracles. Otherwise, why mention it.
I find it strange that you now make statements such as : “We do not rely on Muhammad’s pbuh miracles as validity to our Islamic faith.” “Our religion does not rely compulsorily on faith in miracles to make one a Muslim. -zaid, May 29th, 2010 at 11:51 pm.
So if your religion “…does not rely compulsorily on faith in miracles ( of Muhammmad- as I understand) to make one a Muslim.” then perhaps it would make more sense if Islam presents itself in the same way as Confucianism (i.e as a system of Moral behavior) because it is not convincing (even to some Muslims, I believe) that Muhammad did even one miracle.
My view is: you are now trying to give the topic of ‘miracles as proof of truth’ a lower priority because in comparison to the undoubted miracles of Messiah Jesus (some of which are even referred to in the Quran), the supposed miracles of Muhammad is on such weak foundation (within Islam itself) that even Muslims have trouble believing them. {That is why, I believe, you say: “Our religion does not rely compulsorily on faith in miracles (of Muhammad – I guess) to make one a Muslim.} -zaid,May 29th, 2010 at 11:51 pm.
Since it is doubtful (even for some Muslims- I believe) that Muhammad did any miracles , the next logical question is: ‘How can he be a prophet?’.
Perhaps some Muslims will one to place Muhammad under a special category – i.e ‘The prophet who could do no miracles’.
It is not my intention to hurt the feelings of Muslims. But I wish to put my points across as clearly as possible regarding the weaknesses I see in Muslim’s logic/arguments on why Islam is true.
peace…out.
So if your religion “…does not rely compulsorily on faith in miracles ( of Muhammmad- as I understand) to make one a Muslim.” then perhaps it would make more sense if Islam presents itself in the same way as Confucianism (i.e as a system of Moral behavior) because it is not convincing (even to some Muslims, I believe) that Muhammad did even one miracle.
———————————————————————————————————————-
You are forever miscontruing my posts by selectively picking up phrases or words to start your argument. You did not understand or ignoring the objective of my posts or even didn’t comprehend them fully.
I am not agreeing with you that some Muslims doubt Muhammad miracles hence proving Muhammad’s miracles are false. However I am giving you the benefits of doubt, that some Muslims may have different opinions or interpretations of the Hadith or Narrations by Muhammad pbuh related to his miracles. Did I say different opinions = false? I simply do not wish to elaborate on Muhammad’s miracles as you will not believe them. However, your unbelieving in Muhammad’s miracles do not make them false, as like Muslim believes in Jesus miracles doesn’t make Christianity true. As I’ve mentioned, God granted miracles to each prophets differ in each situation, as means of confronting, counter attacking and discrediting the non elievers during their time. CAN’T YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM MY PREVIOUS POST? IT IS NOT A SIGN OF ONE’S SUPERIORITY OVER OTHERS AND MIRACLES DO NOT PROVE JESUS IS GOD.
You said Muslims differ in beliefs about Muhammad’s miracles and ALL Christians believed in Jesus miracles. Please prove to me or show me the facts or statistics on your allegations. Where did you get these info from? Prove to me that ALL Christians sections or groups has unified beliefs about Jesus Godship & his miracles.
As far as my words are concern, I am responding with open mindedness, that not ALL human can easily accept or believe in supernatural events or things. So goes to some Muslims. There are many narrations or hadiths from authentic sources about Muhammad’s pbuh miracles as in my previous posts. However believing them are subject to indivduals, as each had their own rights of thinking and interpretting. We can’t force anyone into believing what we believe is true. In fact now one knows what one’s faith is and what he believes, be it Christians, Muslims or others.
Do you think that ALL Christians possess 100% faith in Jesus, the Bible and his miracles? There are several Christians group including what you called heretics who hold different beliefs about Jesus divinity.
Don’t imagine that I am an ignorant living around 100% muslims and Islam. I am living in a secular world and living in majority among Christians and Buddhists. Don’t be a hypocrite and impulsive in your response.
Peace
At the end of the journey, we ALL face the Almighty God. Your choice, rejections, mockery will be evidence of life lived
In the Bible, Jesus says that He is standing at the door of your heart. if you invite Him in, He will come in and supp with you.
Have you ever invited Jesus in to talk to you? never? Jesus is gracious and will not force His way into your heart. What’s stopping you from asking Him in?
Fear not, for you know Jesus is sinless and has NO ill intentions for you.
He only wants to bring Love, Peace and Salvation.
MAY YOU LIVE TO KNOW the TASTE OF GOD’S UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
Peace to you all who visit this site.
A graceful words you’ve got there Sonny.
You’ve got a point there, God IS inside everyone’s heart, but we choose not to open the door to know HIM.
In Islam it is mentioned “Qalbu Mukminin Baitullah”. The heart of Mukminin( One who surrenders to God) is the temple of God. If God is far, isolated or absent from this world, He isn’t the Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. So where can we find Him now? Can Christians or anyone answer?
(**I’ve asked Sonlight umpteen times, but he has no reply.)
God is not what we think He is, God is beyond comprehension or imaginations. He is the Omniscient, Onmipotent and Omnipresent, not an earthly being nor does HE need to be one to reach us. He is always with us, never separated, because God is LIFE to us. We are, each bearing His attributes, that’s what make us as we are. Without Him, we are null.
So how can Jesus be God? If Jesus is, where is He now? Has God departed from this world? Any answer?
Please reply
Peace
To Zaid,
You do, at times, mention nonsensical Islamic propaganda.; nonsensical because it is not well thought out e.g. You say:” Jesus had long departed and left this world hence he’s NOT GOD.’ – Zaid May 11.27pm. This is also to deny the Omnipresence of Jesus. (Also related is your statement – “So how can Jesus be God? If Jesus is, where is He now? Has God departed from this world? Any answer?”- zaid, May 31st, 2010 at 9:42 am)
(Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile to answer some questions from some Muslim; persons who are not interested hearing any answers.)
Christians believe Jesus is God. As such He is everywhere. The Bible indicates this also. e.g. Matthew 28:20 ” and teaching them to obey everything I (Jesus) have commanded you. And surely I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, to the very end of the age.” – NIV . (CAPITALS MINE)
Jesus is with Christians even now – e.g. Matthew 18:20 (New International Version) -
20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I (Jesus) with them.”
Just a short reply for now. Work calls.
Peace… out
To Zaid,
To Zaid
You say:”…as like Muslim believes in Jesus miracles doesn’t make Christianity true. As I’ve mentioned, God granted miracles to each prophets differ in each situation, as means of confronting, counter attacking and discrediting the non believers during their time. CAN’T YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM MY PREVIOUS POST? IT IS NOT A SIGN OF ONE’S SUPERIORITY OVER OTHERS AND MIRACLES DO NOT PROVE JESUS IS GOD.” – Zais, May 30th, 2010
Actually, your statements above, in my opinion, is an indication of a refusal by you to see or admit to certain points.
You say:”…as like Muslim believes in Jesus miracles doesn’t make Christianity true … MIRACLES DO NOT PROVE JESUS IS GOD..” – Zaid.
But the miracles of Jesus is a sign, at least, that he is from God (if not God himself). ( John 10:38 ) . The convincing signs of Jesus (that Muslims cannot deny because it is even referred to in the Quran) is in contrast to Muhammad’s supposed miracles which are open to interpretation/debate (e.g the splitting of the moon – {please wiki} that you referred to).
Also you say : “However I am giving you the benefits of doubt, that some Muslims may have different opinions or interpretations of the Hadith or Narrations by Muhammad pbuh related to his miracles.”- Zaid -May 30th, 2010 at 10:10 am.
As far as I know, the stories of Jesus’ miracles in the Bible is beyond doubt in Christianity (unlike your” different opinions or interpretations of the Hadith”). Is it not strange that should there be persons who claim to be Christians who say that Jesus did NOT do miracles, even Muslims will oppose that view; so great is the belief in the miracles of Jesus. Whatever differences there may be between the different branches of Christianity regarding the significance/meaning/teaching attached to the miracles of Jesus, there is no doubt in Christianity (as well as in Islam, I believe) that Jesus’ miracles happened (unlike the supposed miracles of Muhammad within Islam).
You say: “As far as my words are concern, I am responding with open mindedness, that not ALL human can easily accept or believe in supernatural events or things. So goes to some Muslims. There are many narrations or hadiths from authentic sources about Muhammad’s pbuh miracles as in my previous posts. However believing them are subject to indivduals, as each had their own rights of thinking and interpretting. We can’t force anyone into believing what we believe is true. – Zaid, May 30th, 2010 at 10:10 am.
Thank you for your honesty.
My reading of what you have written allows for the possibility of some persons to call themselves Muslims and not believe that Muhammad did any miracle. Is that not so ( and as Hamzah himself has referred to , -”In fact, some muslim ilmuwan deny that muhd did ANY miracle at all! They claim that the only miracle he did was to bawa quran into the world, itu saja! Answer me this you two, IF you can!” – Hamzah, May 2, 2010). So, I feel, Muslims cannot mention miracles to try to prove that Muhammad is a true prophet as other Muslims themselves may not believe in the supposed miracles of Muhammad. Compare that with the miracles of Jesus as believed by the Christians (and Muslims also).
Regarding your statement”MIRACLES DO NOT PROVE JESUS IS GOD.” – Zaid, May 30th, 2010.
Sonlight’s reply: I am not so dense as not to see the point.
The miracles are a sign, at least, that Jesus is from God. With regard to Muhammad, the stories of his supposed miracles are, I believe it is fair to say, not as widely accepted (i.e. doubtful) even within Islam compared to the miracles of Jesus in Christianity (e.g see Muhammd’s supposed splitting of the moon – wiki). Did I not say earlier that, I believe, a person can be a Muslim and believe Muhammad did not do any miracles (except for the supposed miracle of the Quran). I invite you to reply to this point with a simple YES or a NO.
Such a situation cannot arise in Christianity. The reason is this. (We need to be clear about our definitons.) A Christian is a person who accepts that Jesus is God the Son (the Trinitarian view); that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world. (This short definition- for the purpose of discussion- immediately includes Roman Catholics, and the vast majority of Orthodox and Protestants.) Since (to the Christians, as I have defined) Jesus is God , there is no doubt that Jesus could do and did miracles.
Anyone (person or group) who calls himself/ itself Christian and says that Jesus did not do miracles is immediately not accepted as Christian by myself (and other Christains I am sure). (I cannot stop anyone from using that term ‘Christian’ – there is no copyright on the term as far as I know.)
You say: “Do you think that ALL Christians possess 100% faith in ….(Jesus) miracles? “ – Zaid.
I say that all ALL Christians must believe in the miracles of Jesus.
I also say that ( based on what you-Zaid- have written earlier) it is not necessary for a Muslim to believe in the supposed miracles of Muhammad (except for the supposed ‘miracle of the Quran).
I have written the above to show the difference in standing between the belief in the miracles of Jesus by Christians (accepted by Muslims even e.g. Jesus could raise the dead to life) and belief in the supposed miracles of Muhammad (that even Muslims disagree on e.g splitting of moon).
Christians (by definition) must accept the miracles of Jesus to be Christian.
Muslims, as I understand what you (Zaid) have written, need not believe in the supposed miracles of Muhammad to be Muslim.
Am I understanding you, Zaid, correctly? Please reply. ( Also, it is therefore nonsensical to refer to Muhammad’s supposed miracles, to try to prove Islam is true if there are Muslims who believe he did no miracle.)
Something for all to consider.
Peace…out
Sonlight,
One couldn’t be a Muslim and practices his faith and worships if he denies the miracles of Muhammad, for sure. Otherwise, how can a Muslim practice his worships and faith since all are inter-related. ( Please refer to my previous posts on some of the many Muhammad’s pbuh miracles.)
However, the point is you are only pointing to the moon splitting miracle with the impression that this is the only miracle that Muhammad pbuh did which some Muslims are divided. As far as Islam teaches, no one can be the judge of another’s faith as only God is the ultimate judge. Muhammad pbuh forbade any Muslim attempting to discredit another Muslim’s faith or accused another of Kufur (apostasy) even for whatever reasons we may perceive upon him. Islam teaches us to hold positive thoughts on others and leave it to God when comes to faith, as we are weak and our knowledge are limited. I am doing just that.
So forth, you are suggesting the awkwardness that Muslim can still be Muslim even if he disbelieves this moon splitting miracle. You quoted it is unlike Christians who MUST believe Jesus miracles to be called Christians. My hesitation to emphasize on similar point is because I can’t judge someone and accuse him of apostasy or kufur based on look, hear and perception. Prophet Muhammad pbuh said ” God does not judge by one’s looks and possessions, but God judges by one’s faith and deeds.
Further, Islam forbids us to impose negative perceptions on others but maintain a positive thinking on oneself as well as on others. So even if I may witness a Muslim debating or disputing on any of Muhammad’s pbuh miracles, what I perceive on him may be wrong, because the quality and strength of one’s faith is beyond our knowledge except God. Islam teaches us to remain in humbleness and never to underestimate or discredit others in all matters.
Like I said, the conditions of being a Muslim are to acknowledge with sincere faith that “There’s no God but Allah and Muhammad pbuh is God’s messenger”, then faithfully practices the 5 pillars of Islam and abides by the 6 rules of Iman (faith) while maintain good deeds at all times. Its that simple. Unless one totally denies the syahadah, pillars and faith of Islam, then he shall be ruled as an apostate. Yet, if he does not convict himself into such, but just being complacent in his worships and faith, he is regarded as sinful, yet still remains as a Muslim. Such person is obligated to repent and mend his ways to earn true salvation before his life ends.
There are abundant of hadiths quoting Muhammad’s pbuh miracles. However each Islamic scholars or researches may have different interpretations of the hadiths and Quran. This is because Islam believes in the life on earth and the hereafter, thereby the interpretations are subjected to one’s perceptions, reasonings and findings. As to be a True Muslim, it is compulsory that one abides by the rules of Islam and its faith as I had mentioned earlier. Different opinions and interpretations on Muhammad’s miracles or hadiths does not deem one to be an apostate. However, I have not come across any Muslim who deny entirely ALL Muhammad’s pbuh miracles, as like you are trying to suggest, only different opinions and interpretations.
Hope you’ve gotten a better understanding on my message.
Peace
Sonlight’s reply: I am not so dense as not to see the point.
The miracles are a sign, at least, that Jesus is from God. ….
My reply:
I agree with you as Quran itself does confirm the miracles of Jesus. Didn’t Jesus mentioned that he will send another comforter who shall confirm him (Jesus pbuh)and guide you to all truth? Islam did. Quran through Muhammad pbuh confirms Jesus prophethood and all his miracles. So isn’t Quran revealing the truth?
Muslims do not deny Jesus prophethood, but deny Jesus is God. From my view, Islam is the continuation of the monotheistic beliefs brought by prophets before Jesus, in fact a common belief among Jews in their “One God of Israel” mentioned in the Torah. Obviously, the odd one out is Christianity which believes in Trinity and regard Jesus as God.
Didn’t you notice that no where was Trinity mentioned or preached by any of the prophet? In fact, Trinity never exist among the early followers of Jesus, but was started and preached by Paul Tarsus, who persecuted severely those who were against his preaching. From history, the Ebionites or Unitarians saw the coinciding of Islam teachings to their monotheistic beliefs hence some embraced Islam.
Islam is Truth
Peace
To Zaid,
Thank you for your reply ( dated ;zaid, Jun 4th, 2010 at 11:46 pm)
You say:”One couldn’t be a Muslim and practices his faith and worships if he denies the miracles of Muhammad, for sure. Otherwise, how can a Muslim practice his worships and faith since all are inter-related.” – Zaid.
Earlier you said :”As far as my words are concern, I am responding with open mindedness, that not ALL human can easily accept or believe in supernatural events or things. So goes to some Muslims.”- Zaid, May 30th, 2010 at 10:10 am.
As I understand, your expression “So goes to some Muslims” would refer to some Muslims who would not “easily accept or believe in supernatural events or things” – including the supposed miracles of Muhammad.
I feel there is a bit of a problem here.
You say:”So even if I may witness a Muslim debating or disputing on any of Muhammad’s pbuh miracles, what I perceive on him may be wrong, because the quality and STRENGTH OF ONE’S FAITH (CAPITALS by Sonlight) is beyond our knowledge except God.” Zaid,
Jun 4th, 2010 at 11:46 pm.
I wish to draw your attention to your expression “STRENGTH OF ONE’S FAITH”.
A Muslim once told me that my faith is strong. (I did not ask him to explain). But if the Muslim had told me that my faith(belief) in Jesus’ miracles is strong, then I would have told him it is not a question of faith but of logic.
The logic goes like this. I believe that Jesus is God. (This is what my faith/belief is. This is the FAITH part) But if Jesus is God, then it naturally follows that Jesus (the Creator) could do/create miracles. This is simple logic. The stories of Jesus’ miracles is not a problem for me once I accept Jesus is God. For me there is no question that Jesus could do miracles. The only possible problem that can arise ( and I mention this for discussion sake) is : ‘Are the miracles of Jesus accurately recorded?” (It would be non-Christians who would bring up this question).
As I see it, the doubts/problems that exist within Islam concerning the stories of Muhammad’s supposed miracles is tied to the fact that :
The stories are found in the different of sets Hadith, as far as I understand. But different Muslims groups, e.g. Shittes, or even individual Muslims may accept only certain Hadiths or certain stories as true. So the question arises – ‘Are the miracles of Muhammad accurately recorded?’. Which stories of Muhammad’s miracles in the Hadith are true and which are not?
It is odd if Muslim say that Muhammad could do miracles but Muslims cannot all agree on even one that Muhammad is supposed to have done. (Christians – RC, Orthodox, Protestants- all agree on the miracles that Jesus did as recorded in the New Testament. There is no such problem in Christianity.) Can all of Islam agree on even one miracle that Muhammad is supposed to have done? If not, then how can any Muslim be certain that Muhammad did even one miracle?
If all of Islam cannot agree on even one miracle that Muhammad is supposed to have done then your statement – “There are abundant of hadiths quoting Muhammad’s pbuh miracles. ” -zaid
Jun 4th, 2010 at 11:46 pm – and your earlier references to Muhammad’s supposed miracles does not carry much weight with me (and others I believe).
I will leave this topic now. I have stated the weakness, as I see it, of the stories about Muhammad’s supposed miracles.
I leave my points for everyone’s consideration.
Peace…out.
Sonlight quoted:
It is odd if Muslim say that Muhammad could do miracles but Muslims cannot all agree on even one that Muhammad is supposed to have done. (Christians – RC, Orthodox, Protestants- all agree on the miracles that Jesus did as recorded in the New Testament. There is no such problem in Christianity.) Can all of Islam agree on even one miracle that Muhammad is supposed to have done? If not, then how can any Muslim be certain that Muhammad did even one miracle?
My reply:
I have explained to you the validity of being a Muslim, but you still insist on questioning the beliefs in miracles as a gauge to one’s faith.
It is not a question on Muslim doubts whether Muhammad pbuh ever did miracles but the different interpretations on the hadiths and Quran verses relating to the moon splitting. You’ve made allegations that no other miracles were performed by Muhammad pbuh if this just one miracle not all Muslims can agree. You further alleged that if this one miracle can’t be agreed by ALL Muslims, then there’s no point probing further into other miracles. Your point is a sign of your narrow mindedness and your desperate attempt to discredit Muhammad’s pbuh prophet hood.
Beliefs and faith
——————-
You seem to have wrong definition between belief and faith. Belief is what determines your status to be identified as a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc… Basically it is about the religion or doctrines that one embraces or adopts. But faith is within your heart and soul. It is spiritual. Islam has 6 compulsory rules of faith, that all Muslims should adopt with sincere heart doubtlessly to be a valid Muslim.
There are weak and strong faith, it is spiritual. Faith is a sign of closeness to God. I quote you an example. If one feels the fear of committing a sin, his faith is strong. If he does not feel any fear or his heart is not obligated to resist from a sin, he has weak faith. The strength of one’s faith depends on the Light of Guidance he receives from God. The Light is forever shining onto one’s heart, but the purity and clarity of the heart determines the strength of the Light received upon it, like a mirror. If the heart is pure, it develops good character, behavior and attitude, without forcing. If the heart is stained, bad habits, character and attitude surface.
Another example from a Hadith, ” There’s no faith in you if you loved not for others what you loved upon yourself”. So faith develops your character, attitude and behavior. A kind and generous heart has stronger faith than those who possess none or little. So faith differs depending on one’s level of submission to God.
On Muhammad’s Miracles
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The different opinions and interpretations among Islamic scholars and researches upon scrutinizing all hadiths, are part of their efforts in differentiating weak, false or strong hadiths. Muslim sees the importance of determining the authenticity of each narrations, chains and the level of credibility and integrity of each chain and narrations to eliminate possible flaws or errors. However, no Muslims scholars had a single doubt or dispute on the complete authenticity of the Quran. The scrutinizing on hadiths is not merely relating to Muhammad’s pbuh miracles but as a whole.
I am wondering now about Christians faith in the bible. Bible scholars have continuously been revising and editing your books over time and undoubtedly many verses had been modified, edited or removed, some deemed as fabrications. So what is their faith in Christianity then? Can I say if their faith is genuine and 100%, they should have accepted the bible as it is. Isn’t bible the words of God? Why revise, edit or remove? So you see my point here, does revising, editing or removing verses from the bible makes them NON Christians? Didn’t they have faith in the bible?
You are definitely wrong if you try to raise doubts about Islam due to the different understandings, interpretations or opinions on Hadiths or even Quranic verses. I emphasize again, as long as a Muslim complies and abides by the pillars and rules of faith in Islam and observing the Quran, he is still a valid Muslim. If he is not, it is God to decide, NOT US because God knows what is hidden or kept in one’s heart.
Finally, let me correct your understanding about the difference in opinions among Muslim about the moon splitting miracles. It serves as a common Christians propaganda that if NOT ALL Muslim agree on the truth, then this miracle is false. I say, your perception and allegations are wrong. The Quran did mention that the moon is split, hence some Islamic scholars interpret that this is a prophecy that will occur on doomsday, where else some interpret the verses as referring to the moon splitting event that occurred during the life of Muhammad pbuh. To me both is valid, as God is All Mighty and All Powerful that such events had occurred and will occur yet again when the world comes to an end. Also your point to discredit other Muhammad’s miracles just because Muslims cannot agree on just one miracles is shallow and never explore into deep thoughts, just impulsiveness.
I leave those who have different interpretations to God, the ALL Knowing. Yet again, I reiterate that the validity of a Muslim’s faith is compulsorily the “syahadah”.
Peace
Sonlight quoted:
I wish to draw your attention to your expression “STRENGTH OF ONE’S FAITH”.
A Muslim once told me that my faith is strong. (I did not ask him to explain). But if the Muslim had told me that my faith(belief) in Jesus’ miracles is strong, then I would have told him it is not a question of faith but of logic. The logic goes like this. I believe that Jesus is God. (This is what my faith/belief is. This is the FAITH part) But if Jesus is God, then it naturally follows that Jesus (the Creator) could do/create miracles. This is simple logic. The stories of Jesus’ miracles is not a problem for me once I accept Jesus is God. For me there is no question that Jesus could do miracles.
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My Reply:
Is that what you call Faith? Faith = Believe? Analyse this phrase: ” I believe the plane will definitely fly to US, but how much Faith do I have that it will land safely. “See the difference between Faith & Believe? Likewise, you believe in Jesus but how deep or strong is your faith? Do you think that belief is synonym to faith? Your definitions that belief is acknowledging Jesus is God & Faith is believing in his miracles is flawed. Faith is deep in your heart and is spiritual. No one knows the level of his own Faith until he undergoes tests from God. Then can it can be proven how strong or weak his faith is.
Quran explains about Beliefs & Faith.
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Q: Surah Al-Ankaboot
Allah tests one’s faith for those who profess their beliefs.
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God says:
Do men think that they will be left alone on saying “We believe” and that they will not be tested? (2)
We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false. (3)
Do those who practise evil think that they will get the better of us? Evil is their judgment! (4)
For those whose hopes are in the meeting with Allah, (in the Hereafter let them strive); for the Term (appointed) by Allah is surely coming: and He hears and knows (all things). (5)
And if any strive (with might and main), they do so for their own souls: for Allah is free of all needs from all creation. (6)
Allah reward Good Deeds with Salvations
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Those who believe and work righteous deeds? from them shall We blot out all evil (that may be) in them and We shall reward them according to the best of their deeds. (7)
We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to Me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did. (8)
And those who believe and work righteous deeds? them shall We admit to the company of the Righteous. (9)
How Allah Tests One’s faith
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Then there are among men such as say “We believe in Allah”; but when they suffer affliction in (the cause of) Allah, they treat men’s oppression as if it were the Wrath of Allah! and if help comes (to thee) from thy Lord they are sure to say “We have (always) been with you!” Does not Allah know best all that is in the hearts of all Creation? (10)
And Allah most certainly knows those who believe, and as certainly those who are Hypocrites. (11)
How conscise Islam is.
Islam is the way of life.
Peace
To Zaid,
You say:’in fact a common belief among Jews in their “One God of Israel” mentioned in the Torah. Obviously, the odd one out is Christianity which believes in Trinity and regard Jesus as God.
Didn’t you notice that no where was Trinity mentioned or preached by any of the prophet? In fact, Trinity never exist among the early followers of Jesus, but was started and preached by Paul Tarsus, who persecuted severely those who were against his preaching.” – zaid, Jun 5th, 2010 at 12:23 am.
Your statement above is a clear example of TWISTING OF HISTORY / INACCURACIES – in your attempt to discredit Christianity. (Perhaps you made an honest mistake which makes you a lousy historian).
It is true that Paul persecuted the followers of Jesus, but Paul persecuted them while he was still believing in Judaisim. His persecution of followers of Jesus stopped when he himself became one of them. Saint Peter himself approved of Paul’s writing.( 2 Peter 3:15-16 ). So by accepting Paul, are you now saying that Saint Peter and the other early followers of Jesus were in error. (Would Paul now persecute the followers of Jesus when he himself had become a follower of Jesus?)
Your version of history is nothing but Islamic propaganda (i.e. lies). Perhaps you would like to state your references (i.e. where did you get this information from.) OR did these ideas come out of your head (in which case I must praise you on your ability to produce fairy tales).
I suggest that you widen your reading beyond Islamic propaganda which seems to state that science, logic, archeology, history supports Islam. Selective reading of these topics by Islamic propagandist will make it appear so.
As the ex-Muslim Hassan had pointed out earlier in his video, Muslim like you see science, logic, archeology, history through the magic spectacles of Islam. Ex-Muslims like Hassan no longer wear the faulty glasses of Islam and therefore it does not appear to them that science, logic, archeology, history supports Islam.
I wish you could see things without your magic glasses. Therein lies the problem for Muslims. Your appeal to history is coloured. Your version of history is not true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP–gdzsBXM
Hassan’s video which I posted earlier ( also called ’100% Proof Islam is True..?’)
peace…out
” For God so loved the world that He sent His ONLY begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perished but has everlasting llfe” Gospel of John 3:16
Let those who are true believers of ONE God and the existence of Jesus read the Gospels with Open door Heart – for Jesus said He is knocking at YOUR HEART’S DOOR.. waiting to be invited in.
_______________________________________________________________
BEFORE JESUS WAS BETRAYED. HE GATHERED TOGETHER WITH HIS 12 DISCIPLES…..
MAT 26:23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me.
MAT 26:24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
MAT 26:25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.”
MAT 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
MAT 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you.
MAT 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
MAT 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
MAT 26:30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
MARk 14:22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”
MARk 14:23 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
MARk 14:24 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.
LUKe 13:26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
LUKe22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me”
LUKe 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
JOHn 13:1 It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.
JOHn 13:2 The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.
JOHn 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
IF YOU FIND IT HARD TO UNDERSTAND OR FOCUS, ASK GOD TO HELP YOU. HE WILL NOT DENY THE TRUE SEEKER’S HEART CRY
May you know the EXPANSIVE JOY AND PEACE the comes with knowing GOD IS WITH YOU.
Peace to all who comes to the House of the Lord with open heart.
To Zaid,
You say:’in fact a common belief among Jews in their “One God of Israel” mentioned in the Torah. Obviously, the odd one out is Christianity which believes in Trinity and regard Jesus as God.” – zaid, Jun 5th, 2010 at 12:23 am.
I wish now to show another example of Muslims bias selection and interpretation of facts (using your own words). Your words above say that the ODD ONE OUT is Christianity because the Jews and the Muslims have a concept of the unity of God that is closer to each other than Christianity’s Trinity.
I can play your game of ODD ONE OUT also. MUSLIMS are the ODD ONE OUT also. From my understanding, Jews and Christians share a common book (i.e the Old Testament). As such Jews believe in the miracles of the prophets recorded there as the Christians do. MUSLIMS are the ODD ONE OUT because they say the Old Testament is corrupted ( and as such cannot be certain of the stories of the prophets recorded there. Muslims may accept the stories of the prophets that are recorded in the Quran but Christians and Jews reject the Quran.) Christians and Jews are certain of the miracles of the prophets as recorded in the Old Testament. Muslims cannot be as certain because they say the Old Testament is corrupted. But then ODDLY , also, there does not seem to be as much certainty or uniformed acceptance of the stories of the Muhammad’s supposed miracles among the Muslims as compared to the certainty you find among the Christians and the Jews in the stories of the Old Testament miracles.
Next,
the JEWs are the ODD ONE OUT because the Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah as Christians and Muslims do. However by saying Jesus is the Messiah , Islam is more nonsensical because the purpose of the Messiah seems more confused.
For example, – if Messiah Jesus preached the same (Islamic) message as the earlier prophets were supposed to have preached, what is so special about Jesus that Jesus has to have a special name (i.e Messiah – or Anointed/Chosen One) compared to other prophets? Why was Jesus born of a virgin?
The Islamic version of the Jesus Story causes a lot of questions/problems.
For example: – If Jesus did not die on the cross, then who did?
If Jesus did not die on the cross then it is Allah who started this false religion called Christianity. It is Allah who caused the illusion that Jesus had died on the cross and that led Jesus’ enemies (as well as Jesus’ followers) to believe he had died.
Muslims may say that Paul (or whoever cooked up the stories in the New Testament e.g. that Jesus died) but it cannot be denied the Quran states that Jesus did not die but it only appeared that he died.
So it seems that Allah started “False Christianity” by getting people to believe that Jesus died.
Worse still, after starting “False Christianity”, Allah caused it to grow. –
O you who believe! be helpers (in the cause) of Allah, as [Jesus] son of Marium said to (his) disciples: Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the cause) of Allah. So a party of the children of Israel believed and another party disbelieved; then We aided those who believed against their enemy, and they became uppermost.[16] – 16 Qur’an 61:14, M. H. Shakir Translation.
So it seems “So a party of the children of Israel believed” – according to Quran- and “ they became uppermost” above their enemy (the other Jews , those who did not believe).
History records that those who “became uppermost” are the Christians. (Please note that by the time of Constantine, Christianity was the official religion of the Roman Empire.)
I guess we must thank Allah for starting this “False Religion” and then causing it to grow.
Muslims may object saying that the true message of Jesus was corrupted before the time of Constantine, but that would mean that the” True followers of Jesus” did not “become uppermost” and so HISTORY CONTRADICTS THE QURAN.
Islam’s version of history is a mess.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/04/deceptive-god-incompetent-messiah-what.html
video
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deceptive_god.htm
text
peace… out
Sonlight,
You are deluding yourself with the false belief of Trinity. Twisting and turn for just 1 simple argument; Trinity is no where to be found since creation of Adam and through the line of prophets. Nobody ever did except Paul, who wasn’t even a prophet or one of Jesus disciples. You tried to drag Peter in Paul’s hallucination on Trinity, but Peter wasn’t in total agreement with Paul.You tried to involve Islam in proving Jesus. Yes of course, like other prophets before Jesus, Islam regards Jesus as a beloved prophet who was granted with some miracles.
The problem with Christianity is, Christians delude themselves that Jesus is God, besides being a prophet. This is blasphemy to God the AlMighty, which none associated to Him. So Islam came to correct this. God or Jesus did not invent Christianity and Trinity. It was all Paul’s idea.
Trinity is just another branch of paganistic beliefs, like Hinduism, Mithras and Constantine Sun God with a son born from virgin. It doesn’t come from the line of prophets before Jesus. Islam came to save the ppl from this paganistic and flawed beliefs. That was the final revelation from God and yes, God has perfected His religion through Islam, like all other prophet on pure MONOTHEISTIC belief. True enough, no other prophet came after Muhammad pbuh with a revelation from God i.e. Quran.
The simple TRUTH is, nobody had ever preached, prophecise or worshipped Jesus as God except Christianity. That’s the main point of Christianity being the odd one out. Get my point?
Translation: Surah 112: Al-Ikhlas (The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of God)
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
1. Say: He is God, the One and Only;
2. God, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He does not beget, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none comparable to Him
Wake up from your delusion before it is too late.
Peace
Sonlight,
Affirmation that God Is ONE in Bible.
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1 Corinthians 8:4 “There is no God but ONE”.
“The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.” (Deuteronomy 6:4)
The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.” (Mark 12:28-30 and Matthew 22:37)
Quran affirms Onenes God, denying Trinity
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Sura 5:73
“They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in trinity, for there is no God except one God.”
So Did Jesus preach Trinity?
See what Jesus said:
“The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.” (Mark 12:28-30 and Matthew 22:37).
( Isn’t it Jesus the man who claimed to have equality with God, who is speaking? )
Can’t you read and interpret such a clear and simple statement? Jesus never said He is The Lord or I am your God but said Our God, The Lord.
Where did Trinity come from??
Peace
Sonlight quoted:
For example: – If Jesus did not die on the cross, then who did?
If Jesus did not die on the cross then it is Allah who started this false religion called Christianity. It is Allah who caused the illusion that Jesus had died on the cross and that led Jesus’ enemies (as well as Jesus’ followers) to believe he had died.
Muslims may say that Paul (or whoever cooked up the stories in the New Testament e.g. that Jesus died) but it cannot be denied the Quran states that Jesus did not die but it only appeared that he died.
From the Apocalypse of Peter. (Peter own writings on his account with Jesus)
** This is very much reliable that your Gospels which according to the NIV and KJV Bible’s theologians were written by mysterious and unknown people, in unknown places and unknown dates!
Here you go:
“Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them.”
When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said “What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?”
Peter’s denial on the crucifixion
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The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the SUBSTITUTE being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.”
Quran confirms this:
They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)… (Qur’an, 4:157)
So your claim if not Jesus, then who was crucified is a futile attempt to prove that Jesus was on the cross. Moreover, your bible stated God has answered Jesus prayer that Jesus will be safe guarded and shall not let his feet touched the stone. So did God lied to Jesus and let him be killed? Or God lie to God? Sounds weird!!
Peace
To Zaid,
You say:”Quran confirms this:They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)… (Qur’an, 4:157)
So your claim if not Jesus, then who was crucified is a futile attempt to prove that Jesus was on the cross. – zaid ,Jun 8th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
Sonlight’s reply: It is not my intention here (at this point in time) to prove that Jesus was on the cross. Rather my intention is to show that the Islamic version of events concerning Jesus and the Cross is problematic.
Another example of a problem (in addition to the one I pointed earlier i.e. Allah started ‘False Christianity ‘ and caused it to grow) is ‘Allah caused an innocent man to die’.
The logic goes like this. Crucifiction is a punishment used by the Romans for a crime. The Quran states that ” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him(Jesus)” – Quran(from Zaid’s comments). So the intention was there to crucify Jesus.
However, the Quran states ” but the likeness of him(Jesus) was put on another man (and they killed that man)… (Qur’an, 4:157). So Allah caused an innocent man to be crucified- according to Islam. (This is unacceptable to my ears).
There is one view from Islam I have heard. It is the view that the person who was crucified was a bad man/criminal or even Judas Iscariot (the person whom Christians believe betrayed Jesus). But even this view is problematic because what it amounts to is a person (even if it is a bad person) unwillingly died for Jesus’ supposed crimes (crimes in the eyes of the Jews), crimes that the crucifed man did not commit. An innocent man died for the supposed crimes of Jesus. What kind of a god is Allah that he would do such a thing? This is an injustice. In this Islamic version of events, ALLAH IS NOT JUST.
peace…out
To Zaid,
You say: “From the Apocalypse of Peter. (Peter own writings on his account with Jesus)
** This is very much reliable that your Gospels which according to the NIV and KJV Bible’s theologians were written by mysterious and unknown people, in unknown places and unknown dates!” -Zaid.
Your reference to “the Apocalypse of Peter” is a sign of your desperation (or is that a sign of your ignorance). FYI, I have never heard of “the Apocalypse of Peter”.
There are 27 books of the New testament accepted by Roman Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants.”The Apocalypse of Peter” is not one of them.
Your reference to the “The Apocalypse of Peter” is an attempt to confuse everybody. Your reference to “The Apocalypse of Peter” scores no points as no major Christian group accepts it as true, as far as I know. By referring to “The Apocalypse of Peter” are you trying to distract everybody from the fact that it appears Allah started the “myth” that Jesus died and this belief/apparent event which allah caused started what you would consider ‘False Christianity’?
Peace… out
Sonlight quoted:
However, the Quran states ” but the likeness of him(Jesus) was put on another man (and they killed that man)… (Qur’an, 4:157). So Allah caused an innocent man to be crucified- according to Islam. (This is unacceptable to my ears).
My reply:
The man crucified was Jesus betrayer, whom had exposed Jesus whereabouts and beckoned the Romans to apprehend Jesus. Thus God has served this as a punishment to him.
During the pursue, the betrayer was far infront the Romans, near to Jesus that the Romans did not realized God had saved and lifted Jesus to heaven and changed the betrayer to Jesus likeness.
If it was Jesus who died willingly, he will not plead to God to “let this cup pass me” and “God why have you forsaken me”. Why should God lament?
Peace
Sonlight quoted:
Your reference to “the Apocalypse of Peter” is a sign of your desperation (or is that a sign of your ignorance). FYI, I have never heard of “the Apocalypse of Peter”.
My reply:
There are many ancient books and scriptures relating to Jesus and other prophets before him. It is Christians who are selective on their books and scriptures and keep those fitting their purpose and dispose what they consider as heresies or against the Trinity beliefs, such as Gospel of Barnabas, Gospel of Thomas etc..
Unlike Islam who scrutinize the hadiths in depth to determine its authenticity, Christians plainly dispose or disregard the ancient scriptures and books which did not synchronize with Jesus crucifixion and trinity without further considerations or scrutinizations. Isn’t this a bias judgment?
Peace
Sonlight quoted:
It is the view that the person who was crucified was a bad man/criminal or even Judas Iscariot (the person whom Christians believe betrayed Jesus). But even this view is problematic because what it amounts to is a person (even if it is a bad person) unwillingly died for Jesus’ supposed crimes (crimes in the eyes of the Jews), crimes that the crucifed man did not commit. An innocent man died for the supposed crimes of Jesus. What kind of a god is Allah that he would do such a thing? This is an injustice. In this Islamic version of events, ALLAH IS NOT JUST.
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My reply:
In the world we are living, injustice appears everywhere, which some seem to be from the act of God. Why God seems to ignore evil, trangressions of mankind, persecutions of the innocence in this world etc…? Simple reason is, life on earth is a TEST. A TEST that all souls are destined to face and undergo. How evil or good a person is, he will finally face death. Soon the entire world will come to an end and then comes the Day of Judgment, the final judgment for all souls. So life is just a path, death or the afterlife is the destination. Each will be punished or rewarded accordingly.
The day of judgment is the period when each and every soul will be judged on their deeds, nothing will escape from God’s knowledge. God will be the ultimate judge, witnessed by the angels who are assigned for each man’s companion. If one keeps his faith and maintain his good deeds, he will earn salvation and placed in heaven and those forever in evil and fails to repent shall be thrown into hell.
A point to note, there’s a hadith that says, God the Just, shall not punish a person twice for his misdeeds. Either one gets it in his life, or during his afterlife. God The Most Merciful and Forgiving will know the sincerity of every person’s heart and thus each will be fairly judged. So who says Allah is unjust? We’ll witness the Truth in the day of judgment.
But Christianity…? If Jesus had atone for our sins, do we not be judged for our deeds? One who sins no longer matters if he accept Jesus? So how about Christians who forever be sinners? Or there’s no Christian sinners, since Jesus had atone for them all? Does that mean one who profess faith in Jesus get free tickets to heaven and enjoy free flow of sins on earth? Sounds too good to be true! But…Is that justice?
Peace
Sonlight quoted:
Your reference to the “The Apocalypse of Peter” is an attempt to confuse everybody. Your reference to “The Apocalypse of Peter” scores no points as no major Christian group accepts it as true, as far as I know. By referring to “The Apocalypse of Peter” are you trying to distract everybody from the fact that it appears Allah started the “myth” that Jesus died and this belief/apparent event which allah caused started what you would consider ‘False Christianity’?
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Please wiki or google Apocalypse of Peter. The writings were dated arnd 100 A.D. which was very much earlier than the 4 Gospels. It describes in detail on Peter’s vision about the torment in hell, the punishment for sins such as slanders. abortions, adultery, false witness etc.. which coincide to Islamic teachings that Salvations are based on righteousness and punishments deserved for sinners as God is Just. In fact, babies who were aborted shall be guarded and “made to grow” by the angels which is contrary to Christian beliefs that all man are born sinners, hence Original Sins is a definite flaw.
Peter further explained that Jesus will be perceived to be crucified, while likeness was imposed upon another man, which was Jesus betrayer. So isn’t Salvation based on righteousness, good deeds and faith?
A notable description on how the ppl shall be misled to lay their salvation to a dead man which made them in ERROR.
Excerpts from the Apocalypse of Peter:
They will cause many to cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that through death alone (and not life) they have become pure. Their very means to purification will defile them, and they will fall into a congregation called ‘Name of Error,’ into the hands of evil and conniving men with manifold doctrines and laws, and they will be ruled by a heretic hierarchy.
The Savior said to me, “The person that you saw on the tree, the one who is glad and laughing, that is the living Jesus! The other one, into whose hands and feet they are driving spikes, that one is the body; he is the flesh-manifestation of the immortal being put to shame, the LIKENESS perceived by the natural eye. Look at him, then look at me.”
I looked, and was much afraid and perturbed. In my confusion I said, “Lord, no one is looking at you. Let’s get out of here!” But he said to me, “Haven’t I told you to stay away from the blind? Can’t you hear that they don’t know what they are saying? They think that they have put my servant to shame, when in reality, they have hung the son of THEIR glory on the tree!”
Notice in the writings that Jesus was perceived to be crucified, when actually a likeness of Jesus was imposed onto another.Can Christians deny that these writings are forgery of false? On what grounds then? This was dated to have been recorded earlier than any of the 4 Gospels Christianity adopts today.
Are all these a mere coincidence to what Islam preaches today? Christians may express their denial on this as against Trinity and Original Sins beliefs. However so, it definitely deserve a consideration for its possible truth.
A point to for all to consider.
Peace
Come to Islam The Ultimate Truth.
Salam.
Good job Zaid. Reading this discussion activates my mind and improves my understanding of Islam and Christianity. I look forward to this discussion every time I switch on my computer and make sure I read this first before I check my email.
Interesting, invigorating and rejuvenating the soul.
Syukri
Islam explains the teachings of Jesus.
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In Matthew 5:28-30 Jesus says:
“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”
Allah says,
Do not come near fornication, for it is indeed lewdness and an evil life-style.) (Al-Isra’ 17: 32)
Say to the believing men to lower their gazes and guard their chastity… And say to the believing women to lower their gazes and guard their chastity and not to display their charms in public.) (An-Nur 24: 30-31)
Prophet Muhammad pbuh explains this, “The fornication of the eyes is staring, the fornication of the ears is listening, the fornication of the tongue is talking, the fornication of the hands is holding, the fornication of the feet is walking, the fornication of the heart/mind is craving and lusting, and finally, the private parts confirm or negate it.” He also said, “Staring is one of the arrows of Satan.” In another report, he said, “You are allowed to have the first accidental look (which is unintentional), but do not continue to stare.”
Didn’t Jesus brought the same message as Islam? Look at the above verses, honestly do Christians really follow what Jesus preached?
See what happens if humans are not restrained. Logically salvation can’t be dependent on accepting Jesus alone. Man should be judge on their acts, so that they will behave for the better. If man believed their sins have been atone by Jesus, there’ll be no restrictions to their lewd and lustful desires. Hence you’ll see the downfall of moral values among them. Is this the purpose of life that God has created?
Jesus said, “I am not sent to abolish ,but to fulfill the commandments.” Thus, believing Jesus already atone for our sins is flawed, whereby the truth is ONE WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO HIS ACTS. If Jesus has already atone for our sins, what good does it make for Jesus to command his followers to abide by the commandments?
For all to consider.
Peace
Islam is Truth
Gospel Of Judas (From Non Islamic source)
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The Christian Gnostic (Knowledge) Gospel of Judas was made public this week and Judas was the hero not the betrayer. This was just the tip of the iceberg – The Christian Gnostic Gospels also tell us that Jesus was not crucified. The Christian Gnostic Gospels pre date the 4 Gospels kept in the New Testament. The Gospel of Judas was one of the Christian Gnostic (Knowledge) Gospels burned by the Church Fathers at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and discovered in Egypt in the town of Naj Hammadi by a peasant in 1945. The numerous Gnostic Knowledge Gospels of Christ were burned by the Church Fathers because they made the 4 Gospels which they put in the New Testament in 325 AD look ridiculous. In the Gospel of Judas, Judas was the hero and most trusted disciple doing the will of Christ. Pope Benedict looked like the boy putting his thumb in the hole in the levee this week when he called Judas a “Double Crosser”, sticking to the party line despite the new evidence to the contrary.
Well, this revelation about Judas is nothing compared to the others in the Christian Knowledge Gospels. In the Koran, (Sura Chapter 4:156) the angel Gabriel who brought Mary the good news tells the Prophet Muhammad that in fact Jesus was not even crucified, a likeness, an impostor was, because this was the story in the Christian Knowledge Gospels which were burned by the Church Fathers forever (they hoped) 1,700 years ago.
The Gnostic Gospel of Judas never mentions the crucifixion or the resurrection. Seth was the third child of Adam and Eve. There was a group of Gnostic (Knowledge) Christians named after Seth, Sethians. In the Christian Gospel called “The Second Treatise of The Great Seth”, 56.6-19 in NHL 332, Jesus Christ told Simon, “It was another…who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I… it was another Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height (the hills) over… their error. And I was laughing at their ignorance. (for thinking it was I who they were crucifying)”. The Christian Gnostic Knowledge Gospels contradict the 4 Canonized Gospels in the New Testament endlessly. The 4 New Testament Gospels contradict themselves endlessly. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
One need only look right in the Holy Bible to see what is really going on. God the Father said through Prophet Isaiah that the Bible writers, the Priests and Prophets who wrote the Bibles, “the scribes were creating for the people a shelter, a refuge, of lies and falsehoods, (Isaiah 28:14-15) which would cause the people to fall backward and be broken and ensnared and taken.” (Isaiah 28:9-13). God the Father called the Holy Bible “The Word of Satan!” God said to the scribes, “You prophesy by Baal, Beelzebub, Satan!” (Jeremiah 2:8). God the Father said, “They (the scribes) say, ‘Says the Lord’, when the Lord has not sent them, and yet they wait for the fulfillment of their word!” (Ezekiel 13:6). Jesus launched into an absolute diatribe in Matthew 23 calling the Bible writers, the scribes, lying venomous snakes who spewed their own divisive racist deadly hateful lies right into your Holy Bible and signed them, “said God”, and “said Jesus”. Jesus lambasted the scribes and those who followed the same Old Testament followed by Judaism, Christianity and Islam today.
In fact, Hell itself is an invention of the modern Bible Writers. In the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible every time Hell is mentioned there is an asterisk beside it. The Bible was written in Greek, and every time that Jesus says Gehenna or Sheol your modern Bible Writers substitute their own word, “Hell”. Gehenna was a place outside of Jerusalem where the Jewish and non Jewish people sacrificed their children on fire altars to the God Baal, Satan. Sheol was a place underground where both the good and the bad spirits dwelled together after death. Jesus spoke of Sheol all the time. According to Jesus right in the Bible, everyone goes to Hell, Sheol, after death, both the good and the evil spirits. How long can Christianity survive on a foundation of what God the Father endlessly calls “lies” right in the Holy Bible? Hasn’t it caused enough suffering, or will you all allow it to now lead you all into extinction in Nuclear World War 3?
The Temple of Love – The World Peace Religion unites Christianity Islam Judaism and everyone else and the countries they all live in by tying them all together with their common threads and resolving all of their differences once and for all, including setting the record straight about the passion of the Christ. Come on in and get the whole story with Biblical citations and new evidence. Come help save the world with truth, love, God of Mount Sinai, and by following the real Word of God, “10ve”, the 10 commandments, once you see what they really mean, and how powerful they truly are.
Karen Fish is a writer currently living in Los Angeles California. The Temple of Love http://www.thetempleoflove.com/ The World Peace Site
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Karen_Fish
Come to the Truth Christians,
Islam is the ultimate Truth
Peace
Dear Bros & Sis,
While reading the Gospel, I read through the following verses repeatedly to ensure my understanding
After reading theseverses repeatedly, I can’t be wrong in my understanding that the Jews at the time, were waiting for a prophet which is NOT JESUS OR JOHN the baptist.
Bible accounts on John the Baptist questioned by the priests:
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4. No man hath seen God at any time. The only begotten which cometh from the bosom of the Eternal in the same is God revealed. And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art I thou ? And he deified not, but confessed I am not the Christ.
**** (1st: John denied he was Christ but Jesus is.)
5. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not,
**** (2nd: John denied that he was Elias.)
Art thou that prophet of whom Moses spake? And he answered, No. …
*****(3rd: The Priests asked if he was the Prophet that Moses spake and John denied.)
…Then said they unto him, Who art thou ? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? And he said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Holy One, as said the Prophet Esaias.
6. And they which were sent were of the Pharisees, and they asked him and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet of whom Moses spake?
My Comments:
So the Priests asked if John was the Christ, Elias or the prophet that Moses spake.
By reading how the priests had questioned John the baptist, it is obvious that they were looking for 3 different person, The Christ, Elias and the Prophet which Moses spake. So how could Christians infer that Jesus was both the Christ and the Prophet Moses spake? Simply reading the verses above, one can understands exactly what they mean, that the Jews were waiting for the Christ and also another Prophet.
Who is the prophet then?
For ALL to think about,
Come to Islam, the Ultimate truth.
There are only 2 things we HAVE TO do in Life: we HAVE TO die and we HAVE TO live until we die, regardless of our creed. The rest we make up as we go along. We can choose to do this or do that. Of course the best choices are sometimes hard to come by or we are simply left with Hobson’s choice. Nonetheless, when a choice is presented, we must choose well based on our experience, knowledge and power of reasoning. Follow me so far?
So I would opine that if a Muslim has chosen to be a Christian or vice-versa, he must have made that choice after weighing ALL options carefully, considering this a matter of Life and Death. He must have studied EVERYTHING there is to know about Islam and Christianism and have left no stone unturned. He must have read ALL the verses in the Holy Quran and Holy Bible and seen for himself which sounds more pornographic when describing the miraculous birth of Jesus, son of Mary. He must be convinced without any reasonable DOUBT that his faith is not misplaced. He must have known that the word ‘Christianity’ does not exist in any Bible, that the word ‘Christian’ was originally used by Saul aka Paul, not by God to refer to the followers of Jesus. He must have known that ‘Islam’ is mentioned in the Quran as a Perfect way of life for all Mankind.
Failing which, one is best advised to consider one’s conviction again or may God have mercy on one’s soul when one dies. Amin!
Peace and Salam Bro Sir Thinkalot,
There are several types of ppl in this world,
One who knows that he doesn’t know
One who doesn’t know that he knows
One who doesn’t know that he doesn’t know
One who knows that he knows.
When come to faith and choices, one should be thorough about the roots and origins of his faith, not stereotyping other’s opinions though it may come from the majority. Sometimes I wonder how one can be so complacent in researching his own faith and beliefs and chooses to ignore the many doubts, contradictions, vagueness of the origins, history and other possibilities that exists within his faith.
Khalifate Ali ra said, “I do not worship God that I do not know”. Knowing God is by true knowledge of Who is God, When God exists and Where is God’s existence. How can one says he knows God is Ominpresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent but is unable to prove or explains it. How do we worship God, when we do not know how, when or where He exists before and after. Khalifate A;i ra said, “One who worship God but knows not about His existence, is worshipping his own hallucination.”
Peace
To Sir Thinkalot
You say,: “…the word ‘Christianity’ does not exist in any Bible,…… ‘Islam’ is mentioned in the Quran as a Perfect way of life for all Mankind.” – sir thinkalot , Jul 27th, 2010 at 11:15 pm.
Sonlight’s reply: Even if the name Islam ” is mentioned in the Quran as a Perfect way of life for all Mankind”- (sir thinkalot) and the word “Christianity” does not appear in the Bible, this scores no points with me.
Some Christians, like myself, believe that Muhammad had a hand in writing the Quran and that he started Islam. So it is not surprising that the Quran would say Islam is the true religion (or something along that line) since Muhammad is the creator of both. (Muslims may disagree.)
You seem to be thinking in circles. You say (of the ex-Muslim) ” He must have known that ‘Islam’ is mentioned in the Quran as a Perfect way of life for all Mankind.”- sir thinkalot.
I believe that the ex-Muslim knows and rejects this. (That is why he is an ex- Muslim).
For you to say: “…… ‘Islam’ is mentioned in the Quran as a Perfect way of life for all Mankind.” – sir thinkalot. – seems odd to me.
It is as odd or silly as if I were to go around telling everybody to believe in the Bible because the Bible declares itself to be true. (I believe this is called ‘circular thinking’.)
Peace…out.
To Sonlight
In fact, Islam has been the Way of Life since the time of Adam. The essence of Islam is found in the teachings of all prophets who are revered by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. It only achieves its Perfect status when God reveals this in His Scripture through his last messenger Muhammad, NOT vice-versa as understood by you.
I have nothing against the ex-Muslim if he so wishes to reject Islam. What I’m trying to drive at is the thorough and exhaustive search for truth which one must conduct before making a choice which involves life and death. This includes reading both Holy Bible and Quran from start to finish and then make inferences, NOT giving opinions beforehand.
Yes, I fully agree that it would be odd indeed to claim that the Bible declares itself to be true because the word ‘Bible’ itself is not mentioned in the Bible, nor does the word ‘Trinity’, which any Christian worth his salt must profess in.
Equally strange is the fact that you did not address my inference about the possible pornographic quality of the Bible. Or perhaps you are in agreement with the research done by the Americans on the number one inspiration quoted by rapists and murderers ie. the Bible.
Perhaps you should also explain why Christians believe in Jesus as the only begotten son of God when the the root word ‘beget’ is an animal act. Is this how you treat your God?
My advice: don’t make your head spin with circular thinking…just search for the truth with an open heart. Failing which, may God grant mercy on one’s soul when one dies. Amin!
Hi Sonlight,
Circular thinking indeed, are for those Christians like you whom selectively picking out and quoting bible verses out of context to prove Jesus god. In truth, Jesus never says he is God and many bible verses have proven otherwise, only that Christians choose to ignore. Faith indeed, that Christians should not probe further to question or challenge the Bible verses which ironically not a single word came from Jesus himself proclaiming Jesus is God, so worship him.
So, look who is adopting circular reasoning here; using Jesus miracles in reviving the dead, healing the lepers etc.. as proof that Jesus is God. How indeed, Jesus is God at the same time Jesus is also the “prophet that Moses spake” and also Christ the Messiah are obviously the biggest fallacy in Christianity and misinterpretation of the bible verses. It just proves Christians desperation to defend their mysterious beliefs and discrediting the coming of Muhammad pbuh as the final messenger of God, whom fulfills the prophecy of being the “prophet that Moses spake”.
Peace.
To Sir Thinkalot
You say:”Equally strange is the fact that you did not address my inference about the possible pornographic quality of the Bible….” sir thinkalot, Jul 29th, 2010 at 2:18 pm.
Your reference to “the possible pornographic quality of the Bible.” is a desperate attempt to discredit the Bible. Most people are not aware OR are not concerned about “”the possible pornographic quality of the Bible” as you say.
However, I believe it is fair to say that more people (and probably most people, whether they are Christian or not) see a link between TERRORISM and ISLAM especially since SEPTEMBER 11, 2001. They are probably more concerned about it. FYI, there were/are terrorist cells in Singapore ( e.g. the MAS SELAMAT incident).
Your attempt to link pornography to Christianity is so lame in comparison to the widely perceived link (i.e world-wide perception) between TERRORISM and ISLAM (which is so often in the news).
I am not in the mood to address your attempt to link pornography and the Bible. However I wish to say that you are trying to look for dirt in other people’s houses without realizing, perhaps, that others outside your house see that you live in a rubbish dump.
Are you sure your house is clean?
peace … out
Sonlight quoted:
However, I believe it is fair to say that more people (and probably most people, whether they are Christian or not) see a link between TERRORISM and ISLAM especially since SEPTEMBER 11, 2001. They are probably more concerned about it. FYI, there were/are terrorist cells in Singapore ( e.g. the MAS SELAMAT incident).
Hi Sonlight,
One can choose to be negative as he likes when he looks or perceives certain things. Truth isn’t when you based on your assumption and circular thinking (as you commonly used)
to judge. It is, when you explore the books and study the details unbiasedly and judge with open mindedness and honesty. You have not read and study the Quran but trying to judge from the ex-muslims testimony and biased medias on “Islamic Truth”. Are you qualified enough to judge what these ex-muslims said and determine if it is the truth or false?
BTW, do you know that the September 11 incidence had opened wide non muslims curiosity about the “Islamic Book of Terror”, which none bothers to explore in depth in the past. As a result many in the West converted to Islam after going through the Quran, despite the western medias projecting “Islamic Terrorism” in their coverage.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Should you say that many are becoming terrorist in this world?
Open your mind and judge.
Peace
Returning to the subject of the total Unreliability of the quran and its destruction by muslims themselves, go to this Youtube link :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91AM7665cbo&feature=player_embedded#!
Learn about how the recitings of the quran itself never guaranteed the purity of this product, by any measure.
Islamic sources themselves – when checked with and open and honest mind, bears this out convincingly and crystal-clear.
Learn and gain an education and enlightenment, the quran today is dubious and questionable by any measure!
Welcome back Hamzah,
For such a long break, you are unchanged and still a desperado relying on those unauthenticated intenet resources to discredit Islam.
Don’t you have your own brain to think and express your very own personal views and opinions.
Ask me about Christianity, I can lay my own words to describe it. For sure nothing contradicts the bible, but your bible contradicts itself. Did Jesus say I am God, worship me? Christians tried very hard to make Jesus words appear as though Jesus claim He is God, but too bad Bible says God is not a Man.
Try harder please.
Peace
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
So for whose sins did Jesus die for?
———————————————————————————————-
“No man hath seen God at any time.” (JOH 1:18)
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.” (EXO 33:20)
“Whom no man hath seen nor can see.” (1TIM 6:16)
Bible says no one can see God, then who is Jesus?
———————————————————————————————-
Just amazed how Hamzah strived to look for the “Truth” about Islam but misses so much “Truth” in his Bible.
Recent Discoveries
———————
Father Dr. Labib Kobti, an Arab Christian priest, in one his articles titled The Christian Arab Heritage (available on his web site at: http://www.al bushra.org/arbhrtg/arbxtn04.htm ) says: “Recently Father Pecerillo, a famous Franciscan Archaeologist, found more than twenty churches in Madaba at the south of Jordan. From the Fourth Century, we found houses in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Palestine with this inscription in Arabic :”Bism El-Lah al Rahman al Rahim” that showed that Christians were the first to use this name so as to indicate their belief in the Holy Trinity, more than two hundred years before Islam.”
What this Christian priest is revealing is extremely important for the following reasons:
(1) This Arabic phrase “Bism El-Lah al-Rahman al-Rahim” ( ?????? ????? ????????????? ?????????? ) that the priest says has been discovered in houses of Christians dating back to the 4th Century is the same phrase that most Suras (Chapters) of the Quran start with. This phrase can be translated as “In the name of Allah the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful”.
(2) The fact that this phrase was found in houses of Christians dating back to the 4th Century, meaning three centuries before the Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammad. This indicates that the beliefs of early Christians were very similar to the beliefs of Muslims. In other early Christians did not believe in the Trinity: “In the name of Father, Son, Holy Spirit”, instead they the Muslims phrase “In the name of Allah the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful”. This is proof that Jesus was a Muslim and he preached Islam, and early followers of Jesus were Muslims.
I urge ALL Christians to research their religion and sincerely seek the truth about God. Don’t gamble on religion and revert to the Truth while it is not too late.
Come to Islam
Peace
Jesus using the word “Muslim” in Luke 6:40
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Luke 6:40 (N.I.V. Bible)
“A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.”
Luke 6:40 (King James Version)
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luke 6:40 (American Standard Version)
40 The disciple is not above his teacher: but every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher.
Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in Aramaic language translated into Hebrew as shown below:
“Ein talmeed na’leh ‘al rabbo; shekken kal adam she’MUSHLAM yihyeh k’rabbo.”
Note: Aramaic and Hebrew are read from right to left, which is opposite to English.
Translation in English: “No student can be above his teacher, but everyone who is a MUSLIM can be as his teacher.”
To Zaid
You provide another good example of the way some Muslims twist facts and truth to support Islam (for facts and truth do not support Islam, I believe.)
You are like Ahmad Deedat ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4i4tdrrdQQ&feature=related ) in his video where he has to mutilate the Hebrew word ‘Mo-Ha-Mad-dim’ (i.e. attempt to cut off the sound ‘dim’) to make it look like Muhammad appears in the Bible.
You say in your last post:”… adam she’MUSHLAM yihyeh k’rabbo…” that the word “MUSHLAM” refers to Muslims in the Aramaic bible. That is BIAS from you.
Firstly, the word sounds different. It says “MUSHLAM” not “Muslim”.
Secondly, even if there were words in the Aramaic Bible that sounds exactly like “Muslim” or “Mohammad”, those sounds/words will have a different meaning in a different language.
For example, the sound ” HA- RI” sounds like the English “hurry” ( that is – to move fast).
But in Malay ” HA – RI” sounds like the Malay word ‘hari’ – (i.e. in English – DAY).
The above examples clearly shows the bias/faulty logic of some Muslim propagandist like Deedat and yourself. These Muslim propagandist cannot be believed. I suggest you get an education to help you think straight. Also please remove the ‘Bias Spectacles’ that you are wearing before it is too late.
Peace.. out.
Hi Sonlight,
Juz for your info, Muslim means one who surrenders or submits, Islam means submission or surrenders.
All prophets command their followers to surrender or submit to God, hence Muslim or Mushlam carry the same meaning.
While Muslims abide by God’s command, Christians stray away from the commandments Moses brought upon, which Jesus had came to fulfil not to abolish. Look at Christians nowadays, do their behaviours and attitudes comply with what your bible command? Read bible again and learn.
Seek the truth honestly.
Peace
Did Jesus die on the cross ?
If Jesus is not responsible for our sins, why would God allow him to die. No one saw Jesus die on the cross. Several Bibles and passages say he did not die:
Bible of Barnabas: “The face of Yehuda who led the soldiers to arrest Christ was transfigured into that of Christ who had been rescued by the Angels through the window to the third Heaven.” Also the Bibles of Basilidains, Docetae, The Marcionite Gospel.
4 chosen and recognized Bibles, also Luke 20:34-36, 24:36-41, Hebrew 5:7 and John 20:17 support Jesus was saved.
The Bible says that Jesus did not die on the cross, that his loving creator saved Jesus from the cross as confirmed in the Koran. God loves Jesus.
Would a compassionate, forgiving, merciful God allow his anointed Jesus to die??
* To say he was sacrificed for us, opposes the Bible’s teachings (Hosea6:6) and (Matthew 9:13 and 12:7).
* To say he died on the cross, discredits his prophethood (Deuteronomy 13:5) and (21:22-23).
The Jews claimed they killed him to prove he was a false prophet which they still believe. The Koran is here to unite the Jews and Christians and to have them submit their will to God, to be Muslims.
Where is the information on sacrifice coming from?
Paul, who was a Jew and his belief in Jewish sacrifice was transported into Christianity as suggested by a renowned New Testament scholar V. Taylor “The Atonement in the New Testament Teaching.” Paul developed the idea by sending letters to the Corinthians, the Romans 4:25 He told the Galatians 6:4., and Ephesians 5:2 read the history yourself. Christianity is the teaching of Paul, not Jesus.
Who are we to believe??
Jesus came to confirm the Torah, not to destroy it (Matthew 23:2-3).
While Paul abolished the teachings of the Torah (Acts 13:39).
What hour was Jesus crucified??
(Mark 15:25) It was the third hour, and they crucified him.
(John 19:14) It was the sixth hour, and he was not yet crucified
Who bore the cross??
(Matthew 27:32) The compelled Simon to bear the cross of Jesus./ also(Luke 23:26)& (Mark 15:21).
(John 19:17) Jesus was bearing his cross himself.
What did they put Jesus on??
(Mark 15:21) They put Jesus on the cross.
(Peter 2:24) They put Jesus on the tree./ also (Gal3:13)
What did they give Jesus to drink??
(Mark 15:23) They gave him wine mingled with myrrh to drink.
(Matthew 27:34) Thew gave him vinegar mingled with gall to drink.
What happened to Judas??
(Mat 27:5) Judas went and hanged himself.
(Acts 1:18) Judas fell headlong, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Many earlier sects of Christians believed that it was Judas who died in the place of Jesus, with the contradictions at hand, maybe those earlier Christians were right.
Who went to the grave of Jesus??
(John 20:1) Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
(Mat 28:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary.
(Luke 24:10) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Jo’an-na and some other women.
(Mark 16:1) Mary Mag-da-le-ne and another Mary and Sa-lo’-me.
Angel??
(John 20:12) One woman saw two angels at the grave of Jesus.
(Mat 28:2) Two women saw one angel.
(Luke 24:3) Three women saw two men.
(Mark 16:5) Three women saw one man.
Who was told??
(Luke 24:9) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary the Mother of James and Jo’an-na returned back from the grave and told the eleven apostles all of what they saw.
(Mark 16:8) Mary the Mag-da-le and Mary and Sa-lo’-me returned
back from the grave, and did not tell anyone anything because
they were afraid.
During the time of the assumed crucifixion, as you see, was a time of confusion, because no one saw Jesus die. (Matthew 26:56)
But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might
fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.”
So the Qur’an says: 4:157
“That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, butonly conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:”
When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?
(Matthew 27:46): “.. . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.
Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in Allah?
The sacrifice that has to be made to be forgiven for our sins is the sacrifice of our will to the Creator Allah, as confirmed in the Bible.
Not only do we rely on faith, but also action and reality all combined.We believe in the same God, you have been taught by the recipients of your hard earned 10% of your income tithing that the Koran is not the word of God, that is sad, because then you would learn as every chapter begins “God is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.”
In Islam, only 3% of your income goes straight to the poor, such as a relative. None is required to go the Church or Mosque. 3% of the wheat in the world would feed all the starving.
Come to the Truth, ISLAM.
The first commandment of the Jews is “Thou shall not take any god except One God.” Jesus is reported to have said: The Lord God, the Lord is One.” Mark 12:29.
God says in the Qur’an “Your God is One God; there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.” (2:163)
Sources
Address :http://hubpages.com/hub/Sayings-of-Jesus-In-Aramaic-Regarding-Islam
The word “Muslim” is not a new word that is found only in the Qur’an. “Muslim” is just the Arabic form. This word already existed in both Hebrew and Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke). It is derived from the root “S L M.” The words “Salam” and “Islam” are also derived from this root. “Salam” means peace. “Islam” means submitting your will (to the Will of God) in peace. The word “Muslim” means one who submits his will to the Will of God. The root “S L M” has several meanings: Submission, surrendering, or delivering oneself (to God’s Will); Peace; Complete; Whole; Purity; Al-Islam (Islama). In short, it means total submission to God.
The word “Mushlam”: The Aramaic equivalent of the Arabic word ‘Muslim” is “Mushlam.” It is derived from the root “SH L M.” The words “Shalom” and “Shlama” are also derived from this root. “Shalom” means peace. “Shlama” means submitting your will (to the Will of God). Lets see what an Assyrian Bible scholar, whose native language was Aramaic, and a Bishop from the Church of East have to say about what “Shlama” means:
“Tranquility, that peace which is under and in accordance to God’s Will.” (Enlightenment from Aramaic, Selected Passages From the Khaboris Manuscript, by Sadook de Mar Shimum, Archdeacon)
“…the peace which caused them to surrender themselves to God…” (New Testament Light, George M. Lamsa).
The word “Mushlam” means one who submits his will to the Will of God and is perfect in that sense. The root “SH L M” also has different meanings: Surrender (to God’s Will); Conclude; Finish; Whole; Entire; Deliver; Conclude. In short, it also means total submission to God.
“Muslim” is Arabic. ”Mushlam” is Aramaic. The meaning is the same.
Jesus called himself “Mushlam”: All prophets surrendered their will to the Will of God. Jesus demonstrated this submission: “I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, BUT THE WILL OF HIM THAT SENT ME.” (John; 5:30). As per this definition, Jesus was a Mushlam, according to his language and a Muslim, according to the Arabic language. He explains this further in Luke 6:40:
Aramaic: “Ein talmeed na’aleh ‘al rabbo; sheken kal adam she’Mushlam yihyeh k’rabbo.”
Translation: “The disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone that is perfect, shall be as his teacher.”
The word “kal adam” means “all people” or “all mankind.” Mushlam means Muslim. Therefore, he is telling the entire humanity that in order to be like him, they have to be Mushlam, or in Arabic, Muslim.
Al-Islam and Shlama: “Al-Islam” is Arabic. “Shlama” is Aramaic. The meaning is the same. In Arabic, the word “Al” is added before a word to make it definite. It is somewhat similar to the English word “the.” Similarly, in Aramaic, the alphabet “alef” is added at the end of a word to make it definite. The Aramaic alphabet “Alef” is the alphabet “a” in English. In meaning, it is similar to the word “the” in English. So, in Aramaic, “a” is added after Shlam to make it “Shlama,” and in Arabic “Al” is added at the beginning to make it “Al-Islam.” Both mean the same: To submit oneself to the Will of God. said, “All of You who Submit your will to God, are my true Brothers and Sisters.” (Mark 3:31-35).
Jesus gives Islam as his way of Life: Before Jesus left this world, he left a certain way of life to be followed. He is reported to have said in John 14:27 : “Shlama shabaq ana lakoon, Shlama deelee yaheb ana lakoon.” Translation : “Peace I leave with you, my (way of) peace I give unto you.” Further into this verse he says “not as the world gives it to you, but only as I give it to you.” Here, he is trying to reinforce the religion, the way of life, he came with for people, the way of life where one submits his/her will to the Will of God. Not the religion that is present today, where most of the teachings are derived from Paul. Jesus clearly says “only as I give it to you.” He tells people that he is leaving a way of life for them. He says that he gives them “shlama” and only his way of “shlama.” We have already established that “Shlama” means “Al-Islam” in Arabic.
It is important to note here that Islam is not only a religion, it is a way of life. Islam does not trace itself back to a founder like other religions do. Muhammad (p.b.u.h) is far from the founder of Islam. He finished Islam, he completed it. He was the last prophet sent by God to convey to us the way of life that God wants us to lead. If any human is to be given the title of the founder of Islam, it should be Adam (p.b.u.h). He was the first man and the first prophet sent to the world. The very nature of the meaning of Islam is so universal that it existed since the creation of mankind. It applies to all people. God says in the Qur’an: “This day I have perfected your religion for you, and have perfected my favor upon you, and have chosen for you Al-Islam for your religion.” Qur’an 5:3. It does not say “I have revealed your religion for you.” It clearly says “perfected” meaning, that it already existed. A statement of this kind does not exist in any other religious scripture. Each religion goes back to a founder. Islam goes back to the time of the creation of mankind, a way of life chosen by God, the way of life of the prophets.
Learn the truth, with sincerity and honesty.
Leave hypocrisy and admit the Truth.
Come to Islam
Peace
Isaiah 21:7 “And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels.”
Here, the chariot of horses was being referred to Moses.
The chariot of asses turned out to be Jesus (pbuh) who entered Jerusalem riding on two donkeys (Matthew 21:7).
Who then was of the “chariot of camels”? Who was the only prophet who rode camels? Muhammad (pbuh)! He also rode his camel during the great immigration from Makkah to Medina.
Dear Christians, if it is not Muhammad PBUH, who then rode the chariot of camels?
Think about it.
How Jesus greeted.
———————
Jesus greeted in the same manner as Muslims do. He greeted saying ‘Shalom alay kum’ (Luke; 24:36). The Islamic greeting in Arabic is “Asalamu alay kum.” The meaning of both these greetings is “Peace be on you.” Shalom means peace, just as in Arabic, Salam means peace. The manner in which Jesus greeted and in which Muslims greet is the same, indicating that all prophets followed the same religion, and the same way of life.
Does Christians practice this? How could you call yourself Jesus followers when you do not follow his practices?
Leave your hypocrisy. come to the Truth- Islam
Peace
The prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) said “The nearest a servant comes to his Lord is when he is prostrating himself (in sajadah), so make supplication in this state.” Here are some Bible verses proving that all prophets prayed in prostration:
“And Abram fell on his face..” Genesis 17:3
“..And Joshua fell on his face to the Earth, and did worship…” Joshua 5:14
“…(David) fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times..” 1 Samuel 20:41
“…Moses and Aaron fell on their faces…” Numbers 14:5
“..they fell on their faces and they said, The Lord He is God, The Lord He is God..” 1 Kings 18:39
“And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face and prayed..” Mathew 26:39.
Aramaic: “Rooha haw geir Allaha, waylein d’sajdeen leh, brooha wa bashrara wa le d’nesjedoon.” John 4:24
Translation: “For God is Spirit, and they that worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.” John 4:24
Notice the Aramaic word “Sajdeen” and “Nesjedoon”. They are equivalent to the Arabic word “Sajada” means Prostrate.
All prophets including Jesus pbuh prostrated (fell on their face) when praying. Why Christians don’t pray like Jesus do? Who else is closer to what Jesus and other prophets do? The Muslims of course.
Thiink about it.
Regarding God being One, here is a verse of the Bible:
Aramaic: “Amar leh Yashu’, madmay min kullhoon puqdane, shma’ Israyel, Marya Allahan, Marya Had hu.” Mark 12:29 (Notice “Allah” is mentioned in Aramaic as God’s name. Why the Christians worship Jesus, not Allah??)
Translation: “And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel: The Lord God (Allah), the Lord is One.” Mark 12:29. Notice how Jesus does not say that God has three parts. He clearly says that God is One.
In another place in the Bible, we find Jesus instructing an individual on how to enter Paradise: “’But if thou wilt enter into (eternal) life (i.e paradise), keep the commandments.’ He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said: ‘la taqtool’: do not kill; ‘wa la tajdoor’: do not commit adultery; ‘wa la tajnoob’: do not steal; ‘wa la tashad sahadoot shooqra’”: and do not bear false witness.
Notice that His teachings do not include believing in him as a savior and committing sin freely with the belief that they have been paid for by an innocent man. However Jesus taught that Salvation can only be achieved by good deeds, submitting to God’s will and restraining oneself from the sins as prescribed by God.
An interesting point to be noted here is the use of the word “sahadoot” by Jesus. This is plural for “Sahada” which means to bear true witness.
Learn the Truth- Islam or Shalama
God promised to save Jesus but did not do so?? So God lied???
————————————————————————-
For Christians to ponder:-
Psalm 91
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]
2 I will say [b] of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”
3 Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.
(According to the Noble Quran and the original writings of the Disciples of Jesus, Jesus was not crucified, and he watched the crucifixion of the doomed person.
Also, according to the Apocalypse of Peter that was discovered in Egypt, Jesus sat on the tree and watched the crucified one getting crucified. Peter witnessed this and wrote the Apocalypse. Not only that, but while Christians insist that the book is a Gnostic one, but according to Wikipedia.org, “It is unclear whether this text advocates an adoptionist (Jesus was Divine) or docetist (Jesus’ body and crucifixion were an illusion) christology”
So there is no proof that the book is Gnostic.)
9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-
10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
*** (If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would’ve struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).
13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 “Because he loves me,” says the LORD, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
*** So why didn’t God saves Jesus when “Jesus” cried ” God God Why have you forsaken me?” Has God broken His promise?
16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.”
Footnotes:
Psalm 91:1 Hebrew Shaddai
Psalm 91:2 Or He says
Learn the Truth, Islam
To Zaid
You have written a lot of Islamic propaganda. You go about looking for ancient documents that contradict Christian beliefs e.g. – The story of Jesus according Barnabas (supposedly).
(zaid, Dec 5th, 2010 at 12:49 pm”…..Bible of Barnabas….”)
The problem with that approach is that, if you are not careful, those ancient documents contradict Islam as well (and you will end up looking like a fool.)
http://www.answering-islam.org/Barnabas/
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Perez/assumptions.html
I do not feel a need to answer all the misinformation you have written. (Some of them are basic errors by you.)
However I wish to address the following: (Zaid’s reference to John 1:19-21 )
zaid
Jun 23rd, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Dear Bros & Sis,
While reading the Gospel, I read through the following verses repeatedly to ensure my understanding
After reading theseverses repeatedly, I can’t be wrong in my understanding that the Jews at the time, were waiting for a prophet which is NOT JESUS OR JOHN the baptist……
6. And they which were sent were of the Pharisees, and they asked him and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet of whom Moses spake?
(Zaid’s) Comments:
So the Priests asked if John was the Christ, Elias or the prophet that Moses spake.
By reading how the priests had questioned John the baptist, it is obvious that they were looking for 3 different person, The Christ, Elias and the Prophet which Moses spake. So how could Christians infer that Jesus was both the Christ and the Prophet Moses spake? Simply reading the verses above, one can understands exactly what they mean, that the Jews were waiting for the Christ and also another Prophet.
Who is the prophet then?
For ALL to think about, …..Zaid.
Sonlight’s reply:
You are correct in saying that the Jews (at least, the Jews mentioned in this passage) seem to be expecting three separate persons (i.e the Christ, Elias and the Prophet).
However, here is a case of the Bible recording the error of some Jews. (The Bible also records Jesus pointing out an error of belief of a group of Jews called the Sadducees.)
A problem that arises for you here is that the mistaken Jews were asking John the Baptist (also a Jew) if he were THE PROPHET. So the mistaken Jews were expecting THE PROPHET to also be a Jew. ( Muhammad was not a Jew so he could not be the PROPHET expected.)
For further consideration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xHJ7JEQOXQ
Peace.. out
I’m sorry but I guess this will come as a little off topic…
Anyway, since Christmas is just around the corner, I wished for my question to be answered in order for me to celebrate it without any guilt.
These are my questions:
Is it true that Jesus wasn’t born on 25th December?
If he wasn’t, then why are we using this date for celebration?
Thank you for your kind attention.
To Martin,
That Jesus was born is a widely accepted fact. Christians are uncertain as to the exact date of Jesus’ birthday.
From my reading (e.g. wiki) the Church in the early centuries (because of convenience) decided to celebrate the birth of Lord Jesus on Dec. 25 which is the same day as the Roman non-Christians were celebrating their own festival.
It does not trouble me that Dec. 25 was probably a Roman non-Christian holy day.
I have heard of certain Christian groups who do not celebrate Christmas because Dec. 25 was a non-Christian festival day. I feel these groups have missed the point. Christmas is a good time to draw attention of non-believers to Jesus (the reason for the season); the greatest gift anyone can have ( John 3:16 ).
Blessed Christmas to you.
Thanks Sonlight for your straight forward answer.
But in my personal opinion now, I feel the other Christian group that you have mentioned (I have heard about them but have not really read up tho) who do not celebrate Christmas is staying true to the religion. It may not bother you and to the majority of us, but This is what bothering me. We are celebrating a day which is not even the actual date but some date that has its links to a non-Christian holy day. I’ve just got to know that its a Pagan holiday. While it seems Christ remembrance has triumph over this original date, it saddens me to see that the majority doesnt know the true origin of it. Worse still, there is even a Christmas song (“Marys Boy Child (O My Lord)” song by Boney M ) I can remember that it goes something like this:
Mary’s boy child
Jesus Christ was born on Christmas Day
And man will live for evermore because of Christmas Day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7-4GC828rM
Nice song, but misleading to the point of bordering dangerously close to deceit. Sorry for my opinion here brother, but to be a true follower of the religion, I strongly feel we should stay true to the message and teachings. Disassociating ourselves from any Pagan rituals or holidays is one of the things we should adhere to. Just my opinion here though. Have a Happy Holiday to you bro. I shall sit this one out because it’s not really Christ’s birthday.
Dear Martin,
I salute your honesty in searching the truth in your faith. Being a devotee in certain beliefs, I believed we should know its roots and origins 100% to ensure that what we believe, worship or celebrate is true.
Sincerely, I have many Christian friends and majority of them do not know how Christianity was formed or established. No one really questioned about how the way of Christianity worship, prayers and practices came about back in time. No one even bothers to search deeply, what Jesus had taught, guided or preached back during his time. I would like to question, why God had created Human whom God knows well will turn our to be sinners?
Life has its purpose and God does not create human out or error and did not sent “his” son alias Himself to redeem our sins. For God has said in the Koran, ” Be and it is”. Why God allows man to sin, is to show His blessings on us, as for those who sin and repent such does not repeat their mistakes, God is Most Merciful and Forgiving. Every soul whom has erred but submits to God with sincere repentance, shall earn salvation with God’s will. Nobody can redeem the sins of others, much like what Bible taught. So why should God “troubled” himself to die for our sins??
I guess, not just Christmas is NOT Jesus birthday, the concept of Trinity, original sins, baptism, worshipping on “Sun” day all comes from Pagan beliefs authenticated by Constatinople to blend into his Pagan worshipping of the Sun God. All this, as Constatinople knew would draw great support from the Pagan Romans to remain in power. Sadly to his son, wife and other Unitarians, none were spared by him, but eradicated from the surface of the earth.
So, should we bother whether Christmas is Jesus birthday? No problem to Mr Sonlight!
So faith shouldn’t be question??
Seek truth with sincere and open heart, Truth will prevail and triumph over falsehood.
Peace
Sonlight,
YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE POST BELOW BY Brother ZAID, Do you need a year to answer the simplest question or a lifetime or probably you will get the answer once you are 6 FEET UNDER???
BTW, you have not prove to me who authenticate your bible? Jesus?God? Paul? From what I have learned, the 4 Gospels by Mark, Luke, Matthew and John were written at different timings. ALL the 4 Gospels begins with “According To..” So what is according to?? It refers to a 3rd party, so these writers are actually consolidating and compiling the gospels”according to somebody else’s words”. 4 WRITERS, 4 GOSPELS. NOT EVEN ONE OF THEM REMEMBERED TO PUT IN THEIR REFERENCES OR LAST NAME. SO WHO WERE THEY AND WHO ARE THEIR REFERENCES OR SOURCES? SINCE ALL HAD QUOTED THE WORDS FROM SOMEBODY ELSE’S, DON’T YOU THINK YOUR BIBLE CRITICALLY NEEDS TO BE SCRUTINIZED?
To Haikel
The words of Zaid that you quoted were a response to what I wrote (Sonlight
Feb 27th, 2010 at 3:14 am) replying to Zaid’s poor attempt to prove that the Quran is a miracle of Allah.
Actually I did mention something in my earlier post that I feel is relevant. I reproduce it below:-
Sonlight
Mar 2nd, 2010 at 4:06 am
To Zaid
You say: zaid, Mar 1st, 2010 at 10:01 am”……. Please address the issue how your bible can be the words of God, since the writers were anonymous. No references, no last names and no gospels written during Jesus life.”
Your question is not very accurate ( and reveals Muslims misconception of what the Gospel is) but I will attempt to answer it anyway. (I am only attempting to answer this question as I believe not everyone would go to the web-site ‘Answering Islam’ for answers. The people at Answering Islam are certainly more knowledgeable than me.)
The Bible is Scripture (God’s word) for the Christian. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…” – 2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)
Firstly the Bible is actually a collection of books written over a period of hundreds of years. Therefore, many persons had a hand in writing the books of the Bible. But Christians believe they were all moved by God when they wrote the books (as the verse I quoted states)
The origins of some of the books do not present any problems as I understand it. For example : The letters of Saint Peter. (1 Peter 1:1) -”Peter, an apostle of Jesus. To God’s elect” . This indicates that he wrote the letter. (There was only one apostle named Peter so his not giving of a last name is no issue.) It cannot be said that this book was written by an anonymous person.
Also I wish to point out the verse -1 Peter 2:24“He (Christ) himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.”. Here we have part of the Gospel message; i.e. that Jesus died on the cross (tree) for the sins of the world.
So here is a book which claims to have been authored by one of the original twelve disciples of Jesus telling us that Jesus was crucified for the sins of man.
Muslims must reject this (of course) to remain Muslims , e.g. -zaid, Feb 23rd, 2010 at 9:49 am
“……First of all, we Muslims don’t believe that Jesus was ever crucified yet even resurrected.
Those events and stories you (Hamzah) quoted about Jesus crucifixion and resurrection are fabrications and lies by Bible authors. They wrote what they like and what they wanted Jesus to be, so what ever Thomas sayings are “fictions” and simply cooked up.” – Zaid.
So Zaid, I do not know how you want me to prove the authenticity of the books of the Bible, since you will not accept it anyway…… (end of quote)
So, Haikel, Please take note that although, in the past, I may not have addressed all the issues concerning the Bible, I wish to point out that Muslims have ignored or attempt to discredit all the points that I did put forward. That is why I said to Zaid (and it applies also to you)…”So Zaid, I do not know how you want me to prove the authenticity of the books of the Bible, since you will not accept it anyway…”
If you are sincere in knowing more about why the Bible is accepted as the word of God by Christians, you may visit the Answering Islam web-site. They are more capable than myself.
peace..out
Dear Sonlight,
When you regard someone being knowledgeable, it MUST be accompanied by some proofs and evidences. How do you know that those Answering Islam authors are knowledgable? Just because they are by your side? How do you know they never lied or posting propangandas and misquoting Quranic verses to support their claims? Have you researched enough that what they said is true?
Anyway, you also have not proven, that those “moved by God” in writing the Gospels are really inspired by GOD. What’s the prove? Why are their writings differ from each other? Why are the events recorded about Jesus differs from each individual’s account?
One example. you quoted, Jesus was hung on a tree bracketed (cross). Halo, can you make up your mind. A tree or a cross??
Simply said, I do not need ppl like Answering Islam authors, or even Answering Christianity authors to point an error in the bible. Just reading it, I can show you what is wrong based on my own understanding. Christianity just tried to twist every word in the bible to make it sound like Jesus claiming as God.
BTW, it is your bible scholars from the highest emminence who claimed there are fabrications in your bible hence some verses are removed from the bible, not Islamic scholars. How could these scholars or even you be assured that the Bible is 100% error free after the omission? Even more, you don’t even have knowledge to read and understand Greek or Aramaic, how could you rely on the English translations to understand bible?
Show me an unequivocal statement in your bible that Jesus claim he is God and worship him.
Can you?
Peace out
It is wonderful to see so many Christians of various nationalities in this site. Tears come quickly each time I know of someone acknowledging Christ because you never know what journey that person has taken in coming to God. For many, theirs is the road of deep inward struggle over personal fear, cultural prejudice, ethnic pride, or the possibility of social ostracism. And then there are those who came through personal tragedies, failures, rejection, pains and hurts. Nevertheless, all has found comfort, peace and freedom in Christ at last. I think George A. Young aptly put it in his song, God Leads Us Along, when he penned:
Some through the waters, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood;
Some through great sorrow, but God gives a song,
In the night season and all the day long.
60 years of living has taught me that all debates concerning life really come to a head at the moment of death. When you glance at your loved ones and hold on to their warm hands for the last time, knowing you are about to enter an unknown world in which there is no return, could your life-long beliefs which you so gallantly defended give you the confidence to step into death? Personally, I dread that moment and yet I know such a moment will come one day. In fact, for my own sake, I should be as clear-headed as possible when it shows up at last – not in some drunken stupor or drugged condition or be high on some religious fervor. These are but various forms of the desperate attempt to clutch at straws. But coming back, can I on the balance of things, honestly, clearly and calmly say, “yes, I know where I am going” in the face of death? And would I be willing to accept whatever consequence my confidence in my belief may land me after death?
I don’t know about others, but for me, at such a crucial moment, I don’t think I would be bothered with pride, ability or ancestry. Instead, I would be carefully weighing my options because my destiny hangs on the truth of what I believe.
Blessings,
Fellow sojourner