Pls do not persuade those Malay born Muslim to be Christian
131 Comments Published by shah May 20th, 2008 in Pagesi guys
I personally think you are guys are lost. Pls do not persuade those Malays to be a Christians, especially if there are born as a Muslim.
Islam and Christian have so much similarities BUT not the same at ALL!!
Please define Malay ? if u are malay and religion is ISLAM. Pls do not be a Christian !
Bro,
Pls define Islam ?
Pls define Christian.
If you guys ar not Malay, go ahead and embrace any religion but you are always welcome to be a Muslim and the religion is ISLAM.
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Popularity: 52% [?]
Hi Brother Shah,
I can see your impassionate plee not to persuade Malays who are born Muslims to become Christians.
I would say that this does not happen all the time. In fact rarely.
1. There is always a certain restraint on speaking to Malay-Muslims about Christianity in countries such as Malaysia or even Singapore.
2. Most of the time, the Malays that embrace Christianity are those who have been on their own personal spiritual journey such as mine. Nobody preached to me or evangelized to me. But it was my own personal decision. And this would be the usual course of a Malay embracing Christianity.
I do understand that this is an extremely sensitive topic, but i hope i can clarify and bring to light some misconceptions and misunderstandings that we have.
Being Malay does not mean this… Malay=Muslim.
So for example if i put this logic, then… Chinese=Buddhist, Indians=Hindu, Caucasians=Christians?… What about Africans then?
We also know for a fact that we have friends who are Muslims but they are Indians, Chinese, Caucasians and even Africans.
So would the definition of race equates faith?
So, maybe let me begin first with defining what is it really being Malay as a race, not ethinic group(ethnicity is influenced by culture).
This excerpt from Wikipedia sums it up quite well,
“Malays (Malay: Melayu) are an ethnic group of Austronesian peoples predominantly inhabiting the Malay Peninsula and parts of Sumatra and Borneo. The Malay ethnic group is distinct from the concept of a Malay race, which encompasses a wider group of people, including most of Indonesia and the Philippines. The Malay language is a member of the Austronesian family of languages.”
As we can see, the Malay race are a people of Austronesian descent. Meaning we have Malay brothers and sisters right across the South-East Asian peninsula. In the Philippines, most of the brown-skinned, tanned Filipinos are Malays by race, but what about faith? They are Catholics most of them. We also have our Malay brothers and sisters in Indonesia, and in some islands there, they are Hindu.
So what we have here is basically a minor misconception of the definition of race and faith. But extrapolating this misconception, leads to BIG misunderstanding spanning decades of confusion. Even back home here in SG, we still encounter many non-Malay Singaporeans simply assuming that all Malays are Muslims. Not their fault actually, because like i mentioned this misconception has spanned quite a long while in our history.
As to the definition of what is Islam and what is Christianity, that is widely available in any resource centres, ie, bookshops, libraries, even the internet.
God made the world so beautiful and unique to have so many peoples of colours and creeds and we appreciate that He left His open arms of Grace for anyone, any of His peoples to come back home.
Much love to you Brother Shah.
Shalom and be Greatly Blessed!
Emmanuel.
Ok, I’m a Christian, so I might be biased, but what’s all talk about “born” muslim? No one actually born with religion. If one follow his/her family religion, it’s just for convenience. When one, really devoting to his/her religion, whether his/her lifetime religion or the religion he/she converted to, I believe, he/she has really find GOD.
bro. Emmanuel-Reza plz contact me at the e-mail address.
Ni masa di lahirkan tak pernah kena azan kat telinga la ni.. Kafirun…
hi,emmnauel i m keen abt t catholic faith can u advise me.thxs.
SHALOM BRO EMMANUEL-REZA
BRO,EMMANUEL KINDLY CTC ME THRU MY E-MAIL
RICHLY BLESS
how long have u been a christian?it means christian is much more meaningful and powerful rather than islam???
Hi Nor Huda. Christianity is not about who is more meaningful, who is more powerful.
Christianity is personal, it is for the individual to see and receive God’s abundant love in your life.
Just as Islam is for all the nations and peoples of the world to have and to execute their personal choice to receive and believe. So is Christianity.
Faith must not be restricted to our creeds. It would not make any sense. Humanity is created by God. We ALL came from Adam and Eve. So access to faith should be universal, plural and for everyone.
Why are you then so angry? All of humanity have been given free will. It would be prejudice to say that access to any faith is by creed only or a particular creed can only have access to one faith only.
His abundant grace and blessings be upon you.
Shalom,
Emmanuel
i am a malay-muslim, like many of you who commented on this post.
as much as we all find it sad that someone moves away to adopt another religion, we should not be attacking each other this way.
we look after our relationship with God, and He has also mentioned to maintain our relationship with “mankind”. He did not say to disregard our relationships with people outside our faith.
our choices lie in ourselves, and with the assistance of God’s direction. surely all of you can undstd that.
Amen Marina!
You are truly enlightened.
Much Peace, Love & Blessings to you and your family! : )
Shalom,
Emmanuel
baik Marina!
This message is forward to Zai TZM, sebagai manusia kita tak ada hak untuk mengarahkan/menentukan kehidupan seseorang. Apa lagi mengenai pahala & dosa, apakah kita ini Tuhan? Kalau kita ini sujud sahaja berhadapkan kiblat, tetapi akhlak tak ada pun tak ada gunanya. Semua orang ingin mencari keredhaan Tuhan. Keredhaan Tuhan pastinya Rahmatnya yang semua tercari-cari.
Bro:
Please advise about how you decide to associate to certain denomination of Christianity instead of others.
Thank you.
Hi folks and beloved brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus!
Theres actually a fundamental flaw in perception reflected in the question and comment ‘malay-born muslim’. Simply because Malayness is a race, and no Malay is a so-called ‘born muslim’ just as is anyone a ‘born Christian’!
Religious affiliation is really a CHOICE, made by thinking persons who are convinced of that particular religion’s validity.
And remember, one of the largest group of Christians in Asia, and indeed south-east Asia ARE THE MALAYS..:-)
I refer to our Filipino brethren. Ask any Filipino / Filipina who knows, he or she will admit that the Filipinos are of the Malay Race! Go check it out.
So, yes, I am very proud to be of the Malay race, who form the largest group of Christians in Asia, and no body can change this fact.
Peace and love tro all in Jesus Christ, Hamzah.
Hello Hamzah,
Orang Filipina tu guna bahasa apa? Bahasa Tagalog
Kalau kita guna bahasa Melayu adakah mereka faham? Tak Faham.
Jadi mereka bukanlah orang melayu sebab tak guna bahasa Melayu!!
Mungkin ada darah melayu sebab kalau kaji susur galur setiap bangsa dengan mendalam, semua bangsa ada saling kaitan seperti orang Cina ada kaitan dengan orang Korea dan Jepun, orang India ada kaitan dengan Parsi, orang eropah ada kaitan dengan aryan dan sebagainya, tapi itu tidak menjadikan mereka itu sama.
Engkau mengclaim dgn kata2:
Orang Filipina tu guna bahasa apa? Bahasa Tagalog
Salah lagiiii!!! Dan ini adalah BUKTI kedangkalan dan kedegilan awak utk menghadapi kenyataan dengan minda yg terbuka si ‘Malay muslim’…!
Tagalog BUKANLAH satu2nya bahasa sahaja di negeri Filipina!
Ada juga cukup banyak bahasa2 LAIN disana seperti: Cebuano, Visayan, Ilonggo, Ilocano, Baybayin & Bikol DLL.
Kalau anda benar-benar mahu tahu, semua bahasa/loghat2 dll di Filipina (di atas dll) ada sangkut-paut dengan Bahasa Melayu. Kerana semua bahasa2 & lighat2 tersebut adalah SERUMPUN.
Terdapat banyak kata2 & istilah2 Melayu-Tagalog/Filipina yang sama dan/atau sangat mirip sekali, YANG MEMBUKTIKAN keserumpunan tersebut!
Contohnya :
Bahasa Tagalog – Bahasa Melayu
ako – aku (=Saya)
kami – kita/kami
puno – pohon
mata – mata
sayang – sayang
pili -pilih
bili – belih
basa – baca
panik – naik
dalawa – dua
tatlo – tiga
apat – empat
lima – lima
anim – enam
isang libo – seribu
langit – langit
buwan/mulan – bulan
kidlat – kilat
hangin – angin
kuting – kucing
empelaya – peria
mahal – mahal
takut – takut
DLL!
Go here for more confirmation : http://www.blueboard.com/malay/
Tidak hairanlah orang Filipina mengakui diri mereka sendiri sebagai ‘Of the Malay race’.
Jadi amat jelaslah umat Filipina adalah serumpun dengan umat Melayu Malaysia/Singapura/Indonesia.
Dan umat Kristian terbesar dari rantau Asia Tenggara ini adalah daripada rumpun umat Melayu sebenarnya bila kita menghitung umat Kristian Filipina ataupun suku kaum Batak di Sumtaera utara.
‘Malay muslim’ janganlah cuba menafikan kenyataan dan kebenaran di atas ini, kerana kerja kamu itu akan hanya SIA-SIA sahaja
)
Wasalaam, Hamzah,
hey,i really gt angry wif u bcuz nobody is born as a muslim,christian or any other religions. what do you meant by ,’do not persuade the muslims to join christianity? ” and,”if u are an islam plz dun join christianity?” u are so uneducated,whoever who wans to follow Jesus let him or her follows! he came for the sinners but not the righteous! we want to see Heaven being opened to all people! God really hates what u are saying now! i tell u,it is btr to delete this msg cuz i dun want ppl of christianity to get the wrong ideas again. From here,i got to tell u this bro,God doesnt like people who are like you,races and religious!
euu are so going to hell even tough you dont believe in the muslim view.
why must you convert?
thanks to you people, dunia nak kiamat .
bodoh punye kimak , mak kau sundal kepe?
tak ajar?
Allah lagi powerful lah sial.
MUHAMMAD IS IN YOU!
TRUST ME.
EUU THINK I DONT KNOW WHY YOU CONVERT?
BECAUSE YOU WANT MONEY?
AM I RIGHT?
DESPERATE FOR MONEY.
nvm euu can enjoy here, but let see who suffers kat dalam kubor and akhirat..
watch out
name je hamzah perangai macam pukimak.
trust me ure the worst god’s craeture..
Dumb and dumber, the post by Muhd (just next to mine) is soooo funny and lucu.
Funny becos, not even the Quran teaches that Muhammad (‘prophet’) can be or live in anybody!!
And WHY should we trust you, are you better or even truer than the Quran ??
Perasan aja-lah..!
Nobody becomes a Christian to get more money, get that straight into your crooked head, fren!
When Malays masuk Kristian, all their saudara attack them and make life just like a ‘hell’ for them,
So they come to Christ becos of TRUE Faith and the real truth, not like something else.
W’salam Kadir
sembahyang lah kamu sebelum kamu disembahyangkan.
offer prayers before prayers are offer unto you.
6:96 (Asad) [He is] the One who causes the dawn to break; and He has made the night to be [a source of] stillness, and the sun and the moon to run their appointed courses: [81] [all] this is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.
7:54 (Asad) VERILY, your Sustainer is God, who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons, and is established on the throne of His almightiness. [43] He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit, with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command: oh, verily, His is all creation and all command. Hallowed is God, the Sustainer of all the worlds!
It is God who has raised the heavens without any supports that you could see, and is established on the throne of His almightiness; [4] and He [it is who] has made the sun and the moon subservient [to His laws], each running its course for a term set [by Him]. [5] He governs all that exists. Clearly does He spell out these messages, so that you might be certain in your innermost that you are destined to meet your Sustainer [on Judgment Day]. [6]
Dear Christians,
Did Jesus ever mention that the true religion is Christianity?
Did Jesus followers worship him the way like present Christians do? Who taught Christians to worship?
Who gives authority for Christian pastors to forgive sins?
Which verses in the Bible said clearly that Jesus is God or Jesus and his Father God are equal.
Why is it necessary for Jesus to die for our sins? Isn’t God Almighty?
When Jesus died, means God died? Jesus resurrected after 3 days, so where was God or Jesus after his(God’s) death?
Who administer the world when God “died”?
How did Jesus administer the world during his life, while being with his followers?
Where was Jesus teachings during his teens till he was 30 years old?
Jesus death and resurrection are big events, where is Jesus tomb? Not even a single bible author had recorded the exact location. BTW, no one including Christians have any clue abt Jesus tomb. Could it be just a cruci”fiction”?
Who saw Jesus lifted to heaven besides God? Can anyone see God? It was told in the bible, Jesus said that no one can see or hear God. Since everyone can see and hear Jesus, doesn’t it mean that Jesus isn’t God?
Christians please answer.
To Zaid
You ask:”Did Jesus ever mention that the true religion is Christianity?”.- zaid
Dec 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm.
My reply: The word “Christianity” did not exist during the time of Jesus. An early name for the Christian religion was “the Way” -( Acts 24:14 ). The disciples of Jesus were first called Christians at Antioch (Acts 11:26). This was after Jesus had already gone back to heaven.
Christianity teaches that Jesus is God; that Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. (John 3:16 is Jesus’ words). Jesus taught this.
Christianity is a continuation of the Jewish religion (the true religion at that time) that existed before the time of Jesus (the man). Jesus fulfilled many predictions about a GREAT SOMEONE to come ( called- the Messiah- in Hebrew) that was mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. (Other predictions are to be fulfilled in the future.) Christianity contains Jesus teachings and is a continuation of the true religion. Christianity is the true religion.
To Zaid
You ask:”Which verses in the Bible said clearly that Jesus is God ……?.”zaid,Dec 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm.
I refer you to the verses : John 20:28,29 – 28Thomas said to him (Jesus), “My Lord and my God!” 29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” ( from NIV Bible)
NOTE: Thomas refers to Jesus as God. This statement is in harmony with the verse at the beginning of this book i.e. John 1:1 “1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The Word, who is God, became flesh (i.e. became a man – John 1:14). The Word is Jesus. (John 14-17). Jesus is God.
To Zaid
Sorry for the typo. The last verse in my last post should be – John 1:14-17 . Jesus is the Word. Jesus is God.
Salam…shalom…
kalau boleh jangan sampai menyumpah dalam berbincang.
islam menganjur kita berbahas dengan cara yang baik walaupun kita tidak bersetuju dengan pendapat yang dikemukakan.
bagi saya, adalah salah MELAYU didefinisikan sebagai Islam kerana tidak ada konsep perkauman pun dalam Islam. kalau orang melayu lain nak marah … marahlah saya.
saya sangat tidak taksub dengan konsep melayu itu sendiri….mungkin sebab saya orang melayu sarawak kot.
kalau ada orang melayu nak jadi kristian..itu hak dia …kita nak buat apa…tetapi biarlah dia pilih kristian sebab dia memang percaya dengan agama tersebut bukan kerana disogok dengan wang dan sebagainya.
saya ramai kawan kristian, tapi tak pulak saya nak masuk agama kristian dan di sarawak sekarang mormon semakin bertambah….no hal.
the point is biar hidup beragama bukannya bertuhankan nafsu…
the more you learn about other religions the more you love your own religion…
salam…shalom….(bukan shalom ni org yahudi guna ke?)
To Zaid
You ask: “Which verses in the Bible said clearly that Jesus is God or Jesus and his Father God are equal.” -zaid, Dec 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm
My reply: ( John 5:16-18 NIV ) – 16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. – (NIV)
From my reading, the Jews did not object to the idea that, in one sense, God is the father of all (so we are therefore also sons of God). The Jews may also have said in prayer “God, our Father” OR “God, my Father”.
However the way Jesus was saying “My Father” indicated a special relationship with God. In the language of the time, the Jews understood it to mean that Jesus is claiming/implying that he is equal with God. “18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him” -John 5:18 NIV
a Zaid,
As’kum. Firstly kamu dah silap dan salah besar to call Christianity ‘a religion’ konon! Christ Jesus or Isa al-masih brought men and women into a new and living relationship with God. Ie.to have the ability to KNOW God personally-as a child knows his/her FATHER. In the Injil Matthew 6 He taught His followers to pray like this:
“Our Father Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name…”
Sangat menfaatkan utk zaid kalau anda boleh membaca ayat-ayatnya utk DIRI SENDIRI..janganlah zaid berfirkan SEMPIT – itu sifat seorang yang jahil dan dangkal!
Lagipun, didalam Matius 11 ayat 27:
27″All things have been committed to me by my Father. NO ONE KNOWS THE SON (IE.iSA) except the Father, and NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER – YAITU ALLAH SENDIRI, EXEPT THE SON and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him..”
Jadi hanya Isa sendiri diantar segala makhluk, mengenal Tuhan sebenarnya. And He – Jesus alone has the power and the authority to REVEAL GOD / ALLAH TO WHOMSOEVER JESUS WISHES.
Did He say that ONLY He is the ONLY Way to God??
Yes, of course!
John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I AM THE way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Jsus DID NOT SAY He was just a way to God, but he unequivocally declared that He alone is THE ONLY Way back to God.
Its not some claim by the Christians ho said this – ITS Jesus Christ Himself, Zaid! So, wake up and open your mind!
Hamzah.
Hamzah,
kau tulis sedemikian pada tarikh Jul 30th, 2009 at 4:15 pm:
“Dan umat Kristian terbesar dari rantau Asia Tenggara ini adalah daripada rumpun umat Melayu sebenarnya bila kita menghitung umat Kristian Filipina ataupun suku kaum Batak di Sumtaera utara.
‘Malay muslim’ janganlah cuba menafikan kenyataan dan kebenaran di atas ini, kerana kerja kamu itu akan hanya SIA-SIA sahaja
) ” HAMZAH Jul 30th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Jangan berbanga dan lupa daratan sangat Hamzah. Sebab Kaum Melayu kau sendiri juga adalah kaum terbesar bagi umat ISLAM SEDUNIA dan bukan sahaja di sudut kecil dunia ini! Ini pun tak payah nak masuk kira berader brader Pinoy kau yang kat Manila sana tu.
So, ‘Malay Christians’, janganlah cuba menafikan kenyataan dan kebenaran di atas ini, kerana kerja kamu itu akan hanya SIA-SIA sahaja
Sekian,
Hamzah Bodoh Sombong
Hahahahaa..So What?? Yang saya highlightkan adalah hakikat sudah ada Ribuan malah Jutaan orang Melayu yang sudah beragama Kristian!
Fikiran dangkal kau yang terbang kemana-mana adalah sia-sia saja! Melayu seperti yang di Malaysia mau cuba melarang org melayu di sana memeluk agama Kristian dan mengclaim tidak ada melayu yang beragama Kristian, PADAHAL ADA dengan sangat lumayannya! Inilah bukti penafian kosong sahaja.
Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini, sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian..dan org melayu ini BUKANLAH org islam rata-ratanya-itulah HAKIKATNYA.
Hamzah,
Kau kata sedemikian:
“Yang saya highlightkan adalah hakikat sudah ada Ribuan malah Jutaan orang Melayu yang sudah beragama Kristian!” Hamzah Feb 7th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Hamzah Hamzah, aku kesian tengok kau. Dah desperate sangat sampaikan Melayu setengah masak macam contohnye brader brader Pinoy kesayangan kau tu pun jadi kau sumbat kat dalam statistics sebagai Melayu Christian.
Unutk pengetahuan kau, Kaum terbesar bagi umat Islam SEDUNIA adalah daripada golongan MELAYU TULIN. Melayu yang boleh berbahasa antara satu sama lain dengan menggunakan BAHASA MELAYU seratus peratus dan bukan seperti kau yang hingga Pinoy pun kau amek kira sebab dah kekurangan nombor sangat.
“Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini, sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian” Hamzah Feb 7th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Sebahagian BESAR kau tu berape besar agaknye? Mana bukti nye? Tolong sediakan kenyataan kau tu bersamaan dengan BUKTI KUKUH. Aku mahu tengok STATISTIS Dari kerajaan dari mana mana Negara yang ada orang MELAYU TULIN. Kalau kau tak mampu buat sedemikian, ia cuma akan menjadi satu bukti bagi dirinye sendiri yang menunjukkan satu lagi contoh propaganda yang DAWAGANDIST seperti kau inginkan orang lain percaya.
Sekian
Hamzah Bodoh Sombong lagi
Sememangnya kedangkalan dan kebodohan kaulah sudah jelas terbukti berkali-kali ganda . hahahahaha!
Sudah saya tunjukkan dalam post yang lama, bahawa orang melayu tidak tertakluk HANYA kpd malaysia, Indonesia dan Brunei sahaja! (yg.bermajoriti agama islam)
Malah kerumpunan Melayu termasuk juga umat Filipina, dan juga suku-suku lain seperti Batak di Sumatera dan orang2 Menado di Sulawesi. Suku2 ini serumpun dengan orang melayu, dan jikau engkau tidak dapat menghadapi atau menerima hakikat ini, sudah JELAS terbukti kebohohan dan kedangkalan kau!!
Terdapat banyak kata2 & istilah2 Melayu-Tagalog/Filipina yang sama dan/atau sangat mirip sekali, YANG MEMBUKTIKAN keserumpunan tersebut!
Contohnya :
Bahasa Tagalog – Bahasa Melayu
ako – aku (=Saya)
kami – kita/kami
puno – pohon
mata – mata
sayang – sayang
pili -pilih
bili – belih
basa – baca
panik – naik
dalawa – dua
tatlo – tiga
apat – empat
lima – lima
anim – enam
isang libo – seribu
langit – langit
buwan/mulan – bulan
kidlat – kilat
hangin – angin
kuting – kucing
empelaya – peria
mahal – mahal
takut – takut
DLL!
Go here for more confirmation : http://www.blueboard.com/malay/
Tidak hairanlah orang Filipina mengakui diri mereka sendiri sebagai ‘Of the Malay race’.
Jadi amat jelaslah umat Filipina adalah serumpun dengan umat Melayu Malaysia/Singapura/Indonesia.
Selain itu, ribuan dan jutaan orang muslim Jawa, sudah pun membelakangi islam mereka, dan memeluk ajaran al-Masih Isa yang sejati!
Ini pun sudah LAMA terjadi di pulau Jawa. Pada tahun 1850-an seorang ulamak islam bernama Radin Abas, telah tinggalkan islam dan menjadi pengikut Isa al-Masih yang sungguh-sungguh!
Beliau telah membawa ramai sekali orang muslim Jawa keluar islam dan mengikut seruan Injil yang suci dan sebenar.
Kisah nyatanya adalah dipaparkan di sini :
http://samsth7.multiply.com/journal/item/18
Buka mata kau, orang yang dangkal, dan sadarlah keangkuhankau akan membawa kau masuk kedalam api Neraka..!!
Hamzah Hamzah,
Memang benar kata kata orang pasal kau. Jadi tak pelik lah sampaikan ada orang yang menulis sedimikian mengenai kau:
“…name je hamzah perangai macam pukimak.
trust me ure the worst god’s craeture..” – MUHAAMAD Oct 8th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Anyway, kau jangan nak banyak spelling pasal Pinoy Pinoy kesayangan kau tu. Aku dah jelaskan pada mulanya yang mereka tu Melayu setengah masak. Kau faham tak apa maksud tu setengah masak? Kalau kau tak faham apa maksud aku bila aku tulis sedemikian, ini rata rata menunjukan yang kau tu bukan sahaja Bodoh dan Sombong, malah kau pun BENGAP jugak rupanye. Jadi, malas aku nak repeat telecast. Sebab tak macam kau, aku ada modal lain untuk buat bicara. FAHAM?
Sekarang aku kasi kau peluang kedua untuk menyokong kenyataan kau yang selenge tanpa asas tu mengenai banyak Melayu dah memasuk christian:
“Di antara melayu dalam dunia islam hari ini, sebahagian BESAR drpd mereka ada pun umat Kristian” Hamzah Feb 7th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Ingat, kau dah cuba sekali untuk elak soalan aku ni dengan berbual pekara merepek. Sekarang aku tanya kau sekali lagi:
Sebahagian BESAR kau tu berape besar agaknye? Mana bukti nye? Tolong sediakan kenyataan kau tu bersamaan dengan BUKTI KUKUH. Aku mahu tengok STATISTIS Dari kerajaan mana mana Negara yang ada orang MELAYU TULIN. Kau faham apa tu maksud TULIN? Nak aku jelaskan? Takpe, aku tak nak kasi nampak sangat kebodohan dan kebengapan kau tu ketara. Kalau kau tak tau, aku syorkan kau gi tanya buntat Pinoy Pinoy kesayangan kau tu since kau mengatakan bahawa mereka tu orang melayu. OK?
Jadi, sila hadapkan BUKTI KUKUH kau tu. Kalau kau termampu. Dan jangan berbual merepek melalui repeat telecast yang dah lapuk tu sebab Propaganda dari Dawangandist seperti kau dah biasa aku temui.
Sekian,
Hamzah Bodoh Sombong dan lagi Bengap rupanye.
#
a Zaid,
As’kum. Firstly kamu dah silap dan salah besar to call Christianity ‘a religion’ konon! Christ Jesus or Isa al-masih brought men and women into a new and living relationship with God. Ie.to have the ability to KNOW God personally-as a child knows his/her FATHER. In the Injil Matthew 6 He taught His followers to pray like this:
“Our Father Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name…”
Sangat menfaatkan utk zaid kalau anda boleh membaca ayat-ayatnya utk DIRI SENDIRI..janganlah zaid berfirkan SEMPIT – itu sifat seorang yang jahil dan dangkal!
Lagipun, didalam Matius 11 ayat 27:
27?All things have been committed to me by my Father. NO ONE KNOWS THE SON (IE.iSA) except the Father, and NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER – YAITU ALLAH SENDIRI, EXEPT THE SON and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him..”
Jadi hanya Isa sendiri diantar segala makhluk, mengenal Tuhan sebenarnya. And He – Jesus alone has the power and the authority to REVEAL GOD / ALLAH TO WHOMSOEVER JESUS WISHES.
Did He say that ONLY He is the ONLY Way to God??
Yes, of course!
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I say: Did He say He is God? NO!
Fikiran kau yg sempit if u think u can reach God only thru Jesus. U noe something, sebenarnya tiada batasan antara Tuhan dgn manusia. Kata Tuhan, Aku adalah rahsia Insan dan Insan adalah Rahsia Ku. (Hadis Qudsi).
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John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I AM THE way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
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I say: The Way to God is not equal to God.
The truth is what Jesus and ALL other prophets brought to their ppl.
The life, well of course, Life or Hayat (One of Allah’s name) is an essence for all human and creatures. If u would like to noe, the attributes of God dwell within us, as in sifat 20 of Islam. Jesus is the life, so do us. Look deeper, where can u find God now? God is within us, and we can see him through “Makrifat”.
When he says “through me”, shows that Jesus is NOT the destination, he is only the path. All prophets or messengers of God lead their ppl to the path towards God, like Moses etc..
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Jesus DID NOT SAY He was just a way to God, but he unequivocally declared that He alone is THE ONLY Way back to God.
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I say: “Only Way” doesn’t make him God. BTW all prophets showed the way to God not just Jesus.
Its not some claim by the Christians ho said this – ITS Jesus Christ Himself, Zaid! So, wake up and open your mind!
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SO Hamzah, read your quotes AND BIBLE again and be honest to urself, NO WHERE IN YOUR BIBLE DIRECTLY says Jesus is God OR NVR ONCE JESUS SAID “I AM GOD” except based on your own biased intrepretation.
As’Kum to all, including the muslim narrow-minded detractors who posted…:-))
Zaid over here tries to think he knows and interprets the Bible even better than Christians themselves…Hahahaha! What a big fat Joke! And Desperate too!
You are the one reading and MIS-reading all your twisted islamic MIS-interpretations into the Gospel passages and falsely and forcefully IMPOSING them on the real context and text of the Scriptures…!
So WHY oh why should we ever buy into your jaundiced and prejudiced ideas against the real teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ??! You all actually make NO sense whatever..
You ALL have been reading and feeding yourselves from anti-Christian, and so your gross misinterpratations are all poisoned by baseless and false POLEMICS, nothing more.
Wanna to REALLLY study about Isa-AlMasih’s divine nature? Honestly??
Here you are (in part only) :
More Evidence for the Deity of Christ from the Third Gospel
The purpose of this article is to supplement my discussion on Luke’s Christology (*), whether Luke believed that Jesus already was or only became God’s Son during his virginal conception. Here, I intend to provide further evidence that Luke believed that Jesus is a preexistent Divine Being who came down from heaven.
Luke records Zechariah’s prayer where he speaks of God visiting his people to redeem and further mentions the sunrise or anatole who visits from on high:
“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people (hoti epeskepsato kai epoieesen lutrosin to lao autou) and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, … And you, child [John the Baptist], will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, whereby the sunrise shall visit us from on high (epeskepsato hemas anatole ek hypsos) to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.’” Luke 1:68-69, 76-79
The word translated as sunrise, anatole, literally means rising such as in the rising of the sun. By extension it can also refer to the rising of a plant since the Greek version of the OT, otherwise known as the Septuagint (LXX), used this precise word to translate the Hebrew tsemach or Branch, an OT title for the coming Davidic Messiah:
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up to David a righteous branch (anatoleen dikaian), and a king shall reign and understand, and shall execute judgment and righteousness on the earth. In his days both Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell securely. And this is his name, which the Lord shall call Him, Josedec among the prophets.” Jeremiah 23:5-6 (Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton’s English Translation; source)
Hear now, Joshua the high priest, you and your neighbors that are sitting before you—for they are diviners; for behold, I bring forth My servant The Branch (anatoleen). For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Joshua, on the one stone are seven eyes: behold, I am digging a trench, says the Lord Almighty, and I will search out all the iniquity of that land in one day. Zechariah 3:8-9 (Source)
and you shall say to him, Thus says the Lord Almighty; Behold the man whose name is The Branch (anatole); and He shall spring up from His stem, and build the house of the Lord. And He shall receive power, and shall sit and rule upon His throne; and there shall be a priest on His right hand, and a peaceable counsel shall be between them both. Zechariah 6:12-13 (Source)
Here is how the Jews explained the foregoing texts (all bold and capital emphasis ours):
… ‘Behold the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will raise up for David a righteous Messiah, and he shall reign as king, and prosper, and shall enact a righteous and Meritorious law in the land. In his days they of the house of Judah shall be delivered, and Israel shall live in security. And this is the name which they call him: “May vindication be accomplished for us by the Lord in his day.”’ (Targum Jonathan, The Messiah: An Aramaic Interpretation, Samson H. Levy (New York: Hebrew Union College, 1974), pp. 68-69)
Say unto him: Thus says the Lord of Hosts saying: ‘Be hold the man whose name is “The Messiah.” He is destined to be revealed and to be anointed, and he shall build the Temple of the Lord. He shall build the Temple of the Lord, and he will bear the radiance, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and there shall be a high priest on his throne, and there be a counsel of peace between the two of them.’ (Ibid., p. 99)
R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Johanan: Three WERE CALLED BY THE NAME OF THE holy One, blessed be He, and they are the following: The righteous, the Messiah and Jerusalem. [This may be inferred as regards] the righteous [from] what ha just been said. [As regards] the Messiah – it is written: And this is the name whereby he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness (Jer. XXIII, 6) (The Babylonian Talmud, Rabbi Dr. I. Epstein, Editor (London: Soncino Press), Seder Nezekin, Volume II, Baba Bathra 75b, p. 303)
God will call the king Messiah after His own name , for it is said of the king Messiah This is his name whereby he shall be called: The Lord our righteousness (Jer. 23:6). (The Midrash on Psalms, William G. Braude, Translator (New Haven: Yale, 959), Yale Judaica Series, Volume XIII, Leon Nemoy, Editor, Book One, Psalm 2.2)
The Rabbis say, “This King Messiah, if he is from the living, his name is David. Ife he is from the dead, his name is David…” Rabbi Joshua ben Levi said, “His name is Branch. ” (Berakoth 2.4)
The above shows that Luke’s readers, who were familiar with the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, would have seen a connection with Luke’s anatole and the Messianic Branch referred to in the OT. Luke’s audience would have concluded that the visiting anatole refers to the coming Davidic Messiah, whom Luke has already identified as Jesus:
“In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!’ But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.’ And Mary said to the angel, ‘How will this be, since I am a virgin?’ And the angel answered her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy–the Son of God.’” Luke 1:26-35
What makes this all the more interesting is the fact that the anatole is said to be visiting from on high, meaning from heaven, which suggests that this entity is coming down from heaven. That this is a heavenly visitant can be seen from how the phrase “from on high” is used in the following passage:
“And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high (ek hypsos).” Luke 24:49
The power that Jesus says would come from on high refers to the promise of the Father to send the Holy Spirit:
“In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. To them he presented himself alive after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, ‘you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.’ So when they had come together, they asked him, ‘Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?’ He said to them, ‘It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.’” Acts 1:1-8
“Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.” Acts 2:30-33
Thus, the power that the apostles were to receive from on high refers to the Holy Spirit’s descent upon them from the very presence of the Father out of heaven:
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.” John 15:26
The Septuagint uses the phrase in a similar manner:
And the channels of the sea were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of the breath of His anger. He sent from above (ek hypsous) and took me; He drew me out of many waters 2 Samuel 22:16-17 (Source)
For He has looked out from the height of His sanctuary (ek hypsous hagiou autou); the Lord looked upon the earth from heaven (ek ouranou); Psalm 101:20 [Hebrew: 102:19] (Source)
MEM. He has sent fire from His lofty habitation (ek hypsous autou), He has brought it into my bones: He has spread a net for my feet, He has turned me back: He has made me desolate and mourning all the day. Lamentations 1:13 (Source)
The foregoing helps us see that, by saying that the anatole visits from on high, Luke intended to communicate to his readers that the Messiah is a heavenly figure, a being that comes down out of heaven to visit the people. To put it another away, the Messiah according to Luke isn’t merely a human figure but a preexistent heavenly Being that came down to be conceived from the virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit in order to receive a human nature.
Moreover, elsewhere in Luke’s Gospel Jesus is identified as the one who comes to redeem God’s people, specifically Israel:
“Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law, he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said, ‘Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel.’… And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin, and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day. And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak OF HIM to all who were waiting for the redemption (lutrosin) of Jerusalem.” Luke 2:25-32, 36-38
“That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. And he said to them, ‘What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?’ And they stood still, looking sad. Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, ‘Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?’ And he said to them, ‘What things?’ And they said to him, ‘Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. But we had hoped that HE was the one to redeem (lutrousthai) Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.’ And he said to them, ‘O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?’ And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” Luke 24:13-27
“And the angel said to them, ‘Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.’” Luke 2:10-11
“For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” Luke 19:10
“God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.” Acts 5:31
“Of this man’s offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.” Acts 13:23
In light of the above it is very hard not to see that Luke was portraying Jesus as the God who came to visit his people from on high in order to redeem them from their sins.
Luke wasn’t the only author who believed this about Christ since other NT writers taught essentially the same thing, and even used similar language to communicate the same point:
“For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom (lutron) for many.” Mark 10:45
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom (antilutron) for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.”
“waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem (lutroseetai) us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.” Titus 2:13-14
In this last text, Paul identifies Jesus as the Savior God who came to redeem a people of his own. Matthew echoes Paul’s statements:
“‘She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save HIS people from their sins (autos gar sosei ton laon autou apo ton harmation auton).’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel’ (which means, God with us).” Matthew 1:21-23
Jesus, according to Matthew, is the God who came to be with his people in order to save them from their sins.
There is another Lukan text which supports preexistence. In confronting the religious establishment Jesus posed a question regarding the Messiah’s ancestry:
“But he said to them, ‘How can they say that the Christ is David’s son? For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” David thus calls him Lord, so how is he his son?’” Luke 20:41-44
Here is how the Septuagint renders this particular Psalm:
The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit on My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” The Lord shall send out a rod of Your strength out of Zion: rule in the midst of Your enemies! With You is dominion in the day of Your power, in the splendors of Your saints; I have begotten You from the womb before the morning. The Lord has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord at Your right hand has dashed in pieces kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill up the number of corpses, He shall crush the heads of many on the earth. He shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore shall He lift up the head. Psalm 109 [Hebrew: 110]:1-7 (Source)
The Hebrew of Psalm 110:3 does not help clarify the meaning at this point since the Hebrew text is actually unclear. It is the Septuagint translation which clarifies the meaning or, at the very least, helps us understand what some Jews thought the Hebrew meant.
This may explain why the official Catholic version of the Holy Bible, the New American Bible (NAB), adopted the Septuagint reading for Psalm 110:3:
“Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you.”
3 [3] Like the dew I begot you: an adoption formula as in Psalm 2:7; 89:27-28. Before the daystar: possibly an expression for before the world began (Proverbs 8:22). (Source)
Evidently, the translators of the Septuagint believed that this text supported the view that not only was David’s Lord already existing at the time this particular Psalm was composed, but that he was also there with God before the creation of the world!
The Psalm basically concurs with the theology of the Fourth Gospel which quotes Jesus as saying:
“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed… Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:5, 24
With the foregoing in perspective we can more fully appreciate Jesus’ point: By appealing to this particular Psalm the Lord wanted to call attention to the fact that the Messiah is more than a human descendant of David, he is also his sovereign Lord. Moreover, the context of the Psalm provides the reason why the Messiah is David’s Lord, and therefore greater than his human ancestor; the former is a preexistent Divine figure that was there with God even before David came into being!
This is quite similar to Jesus’s claim of being greater than Abraham:
“‘Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.’ The Jews said to him, ‘Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, “If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.” Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?’ Jesus answered, ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, “He is our God.” But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.’ So the Jews said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being/existence (prin Abraam genesthai), I AM (ego eimi).’ So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” John 8:51-59
Christ explains why he is greater than Abraham and how he was able to see the patriarch, despite the fact that the latter had been dead for approximately two thousand years: Jesus has always existed because, unlike Abraham who was created, he is timeless!
In a similar manner, Jesus is David’s Lord, and therefore greater than the latter, because he has existed even before the world began, implying that he is a Divine Being.
FURTHERMore, Jesus already declared that :
He and God are ONE and the same.
Whoever who saw Jesus Christ, already knows and has seen what God is like – in His nature and His character.
Jesus alone GIVES everlasting life to whoever Jesus chooses.
Jesus Christ alone can FORGIVE THE SINS of sinful people He met and healed.
Jesus Christ was already around as the Logos-the Kalimat-of Allah EVEN BEFORE Nabi Abraham was even born…
and so on and so forth…you get the drift!
Christians NEVER made up all of the above – these are the eyewitness testimonies from the actual people who heard and saw it from Jesus Christ’s own mouth Himself.
Oh yes, your precious muhammad (founder of islam) was not even born yet until SIX HUNDRED YEARS LATER! So, obviously, he could never say thathe heard these statements!
Go get more from here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/luke_preexistence.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/phil_hymn2.html
http://abrahamic-faith.com/Jesus-son-of-God.html
And open your trapped and so-closed mind
If you can intelligently address even 25 percent of these articles above, THEN, you can write back, otherwise, you are just another tin-kosong spilling more worthless nonsense.
Wasalaam. Hamzah.
Sonlight says:
My reply: ( John 5:16-18 NIV ) – 16So, …but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. – (NIV)
I say:
If I call my Father my own Father, then my father and I COULD be equal coz we may share common attributes. However, I am NOT my father. How could Jesus be his Father (God) then, even if Jesus inherits some attributes from God. BTW, there are more about humans that you should ponder, how close we are to GOD than u can ever imagine. God is not in heaven nor in outer space, God is within us and any one God chooses to reveal to him, will only see teh Truth of Oneness in Multiplicity. Only Islam has the answer to this, through “makrifah”. Jesus is just one of the chosen ones, besides other prophets and awliya’ Allah. To achieve makrifah, one has to undergo “internal” cleanses to purify his heart. We can achieve this too, as this is what GOD has willed for every human to seek as the main purpose of God’s creations.
Sonlight says:
From my reading, the Jews did not object to the idea that, in one sense, God is the father of all (so we are therefore also sons of God). The Jews may also have said in prayer “God, our Father” OR “God, my Father”.
I say:
So there, not just Jesus calling God his own Father, but to other Jews too.
Sonlight says:
However the way Jesus was saying “My Father” indicated a special relationship with God. In the language of the time, the Jews understood it to mean that Jesus is claiming/implying that he is equal with God. “18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him” -John 5:18 NIV
I say:
If I walk around telling ppl, hey guyz! Listen here. I am equal to my Father and therefore I am my father coz we have special relationship! Does it make any sense? Yes I have a special relationship with my father, but I am not my Father. Yes, I may agree if u say I may share the same attributes inherited from my Father, but I can’t be my father. As I have mentioned, WE HUMANS, NOT JUST JESUS HAS A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, as God is everywhere within His own Creations, not isolated apart.
Going a little bit further in makrifah, Human is created as a “reflection” of God, inheriting some of the 99 attributes as God has willed. However, what you may see in a mirror, can be similar images of you, where it appears alike but you are still you in your single form. It is not easy to explain this, unless one has experienced it which we call ilmu “Hakikat”.
Rethink about what you have learnt from your bible about Jesus and try to relate.
To Hamzah,
So much of your Cut And Paste elaborated article. I can’ be bothered about all the twisted words you have posted about Islam and your so called Man God Jesus.
Just answer my simple questions.
Do you really know your God? Have you met Him before?
Where is God or Jesus now? Give me specific answers for this.
Prove to me how is God omniscience or omnipotent padahal manusia tak nampak Dia.
If Jesus was lifted to heaven now, where is this heaven?
You say Jesus is God, then He should be everywhere around us. Can you show or explain to me his whereabouts now?
I bet you don’t know these answers. Kau tak kenal siapa DIRI kau, apa lagi nak kenal Tuhan. Kau anggap Jesus Tuhan, sedangkan Tuhan itu berbeza dari makhluk.
Dan satu lagi, kenapa Tuhan nak cipta alam dan manusia sedangkan Dia mengetahui manusia pasti melanggar perintah Dia. Jangan pandai2 mengatakan Tuhan menjelma jadi manusia (Jesus) atau Tuhan mengorbankan “anak”Nya demi manusia. Its all nonsense dan menunjukkan Tuhan kau itu lemah. Fikiran kau ttg Tuhan tu sempit and tak masuk akal. Sia2 Tuhan kasi kau akal, tapi tak berfikir secara logik.
Jgn lupa, give me your own explanations on the questions i posted above.
Silahkan dgn penjelasan kau.
Salam Hamzah,
Selepas engkau tidak boleh menjawab aku dulu, engkau terpekik terlolong di sini pula ya? Hentikanlah kerja cut and paste itu. Itu hanya membuat engkau kelihatan sangat terdesak ( desperado ).
Cuma kali ini engkau sudah tidak mencarut-carut macam dulu. Agaknya sudah bertaubat kot? Tapi engkau tak perlu bertaubat sebab dosa engkau sudah ditebus Jesus. Jadi bolehlah buat apa saja kan?
Gurau sahaja:)
Syukri
To Zaid,
You wrote: “To Hamzah,
So much of your Cut And Paste elaborated article. I can’t be bothered about all the twisted words you have posted about Islam and your so called Man God Jesus.”
Sonlght’s comment : I say that you should be bothered about what Hamzah wrote if he quoted the Bible. Christians try to prove their beliefs from the Bible. e.g. So the Jews said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being/existence (prin Abraam genesthai), I AM (ego eimi).’ So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” John 8:57-59 ( From Hamzah’s writing).
Jesus is saying HE existed before Abraham? PLEASE ADDRESS THIS ISSUE for this verse implies that Jesus is possibly 1) God or 2) an Angel ( because an angel also existed before Abraham.) – Please see the note (P.S.) below.
You also asked me to “Rethink about what you have learnt from your bible about Jesus …”-zaid
Feb 13th, 2010 at 8:56 am.
My reply: What is there to rethink? I have been educated to read and understand. My reading and understanding of the Bible leads me to the conclusion that (the Bible says) Jesus is God.
(I wonder if you can , or want to, read and understand the Bible)
P. S, – Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59) “I AM” being the name God used to refer to himself when he spoke to Moses (Exodus 3:14). So Jesus uses a term that is reserved for God when referring to himself (Jewish term for God). Jesus is therefore saying that he is God. ( Jesus is not an angel but God himself)
Grammatically Jesus should actually say :’Before Abraham existed, I WAS’. But if Jesus had said: “I WAS” it would only indicate that He existed before Abraham (and He is possibly an angel). It would not indicate that He is God. But Jesus deliberately said “I AM” which is also the term by which God referred to Himself (Exodus 3:14). Jesus is saying He is God.
Peace Sonlight,
I shall not argue on the authenticity of Jesus statement in your bible, as its your belief not mine.
I guess you’ve missed my point. I ask you to think about God on the point which both you and I believe. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. How are these so? You conclude that God appeared through Jesus to proclaim the words “I AM” meaning I am God. Hence Jesus is God in human form. How do you prove the 3 “Omnis” I’ve mentioned above?
Answer me then, where is God now after Jesus departure? Isn’t God everywhere then? In Islam, we don’t just learn how to worship. We seek the knowledge to find God and we call it “usuluddin”, ie the knowledge of GOD. As I have mentioned, this is the purpose of GOD’s creations. God willed that we seek to know God through God’s creations. God is NOT male nor Female, Not HUMAN or any of HIS Creations. I believed Christians agree to these points too. In Islam, one who has reached the peak of usuluddin, witness nothing else in this world including himself, except God’s existence. (Jesus is one of them).
Only Islam has the WAY to reach God which is similar to what Jesus and other prophets preached. I reiterate my points again, God is not in outer space nor outside this universe. God is everywhere within His Creations and human is a perfect “mirror” of God’s existence. So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body, which is a fact not just to Jesus, but to those who have reached the peak of “usuluddin”. God chooses to reveal Himself to those who purify his heart and has utmost sincerity to seek God. God says: “When my servant seeks Me in a single step, I will hasten My Way towards him a thousand steps.”
Food for your thoughts:
When you see the SUN (light) shine upon a mirror, you see 2 faces of the SUN, one genuine and the other a reflection. It looks alike, but Existence of the SUN is still in its singular form even if the number of mirrors are multiplied. Think deep about it, or you’ll still craving to find your “PATH” towards GOD which I believe you still are, but can never reach Him.
Peace
To Zaid,
Thank you for you kind reply. You have asked many questions. (e.g. – How do you prove the 3 “Omnis” I’ve (Zaid) mentioned above?..) -zaid, Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Also you asked:”Who administer the world when God “died”?
How did Jesus administer the world during his life, while being with his followers?.. (and other questions)…zaid , Dec 23rd, 2009 at 8:57 pm.
My reply: If we accept that Jesus is God than so many of your questions would not be problematic.
God is able to do things that is beyond our ability to understand. Just because I do not understand how God is able to do certain things does not mean that He cannot do them. Do you really expect me, the FINITE to fully explain the ways of the INFINITE? (That is why I feel some questions asked by Muslims do not require an answer.)
The real issue is : IS JESUS GOD? (and not : how is Jesus able to do this or that).
But that issue ( the Christian belief that Jesus is God) is the issue that Muslims must say is not true. I am not surprised that you said: ” Zaid, Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Peace Sonlight,
I shall not argue on the authenticity of Jesus statement in your bible, as its your belief not mine.” Sonlight’s note:- This is regarding Jesus’ “I AM” statement in (John 8:58-59) which implies that Jesus is God. (Sonlight, Feb 16th, 2010 at 1:26 am)
Am I correct to say that you do not accept John 8:58-59 as authentic (or that it is authentic – i.e those are actually Jesus words – but Christians misunderstand the meaning.)
Peace.
Peace Sonlight,
Great to have an open discussions without arguments. From my perspective, yes, Christians have misunderstood and misinterpreted Jesus teachings.
This has been mentioned in the Quran
Surah Al-Fatheha- (Surah 1. The Opening)
1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath (The Jews), and who go not astray(Christians).
()added by me.
The Jews from past till present always create wraths and conflicts on earth. Almost every prophet sent to the Jews were mistreated, murdered or tortured by them, including Jesus himself. (But Moslems believe Jesus was saved by God, not crucified).
Islam refers Christians as being misguided and lead astray with the ambiguity of their own teachings. You’ll definitely disagree if I say the contents of bible were corrupted but truthfully bible contents were wrote and compiled with abundant misinterpretations, mistranslations and modifications by each author.
Looking into Islam, I can find the answers and truth in all the teachings brought by the prophets of Allah. Each teachings coincide and compliment with one another. The concept of monotheism is consistent from every teaching brought by every prophet. However knowing God is complex, abstract and not easy to comprehend. Only when God choose to reveal Godself, then one can witness the TRUTH within his inner self. I emphasize the word “I AM”, as the peak of knowing your inner SELF, ie “Makrifat”.
As our beloved prophet Muhammad PBUH said “Man arafa nafsahu, faqad arafa rabbahu”. Those who know his inner SELF, will acquire the knowledge of God self.
God is everywhere, within every soul and God’s entire Creations. Those who gain “Makrifah” will witness this TRUTH. The words “I AM” is uttered when one witnesses none other than the existence of All Mighty GOD over-ruling God’s entire creations. This is the peak of “Makrifah”. As Islam teaches ” Awalludin makrifatullah” meaning “The beginning of religion is knowledge of God”. God can never be his own Creations, but God is never separated from His Creations.
Food for your thoughts:
Water is called river, ocean, ponds, rain, ice and snow depending on its condition and location. For those who know its origin, they will witness that the TRUTH is “water” in all the above.
Get some sense?
Peace
Peace Hamzah,
I admire your enthusiasm to spread and try to convince others on your beliefs. I have went through all your posts, but nowhere I can find Jesus directly declares himself “I AM GOD”.
Most commonly found are indirect quotes like, Jesus is the TRUTH, THE WAY, THE WORD OF GOD, THE ONLY SON, THE LIFE, THE ONLY PATH, THE ALPHA & OMEGA etc..However distinctively we all know Jesus is NOT the Father nor the HOLY spirit. Tell me how could you equate these 3 as ONE?
If you try to relate these 3 as the SUN, its RAYS and HEAT, it only draws near to Islamic principle of Usuluddin, not your Trinity concept of GOD which is flawed.
God is never be separated from His Creations, but God is NOT his own Creations.
Firman Allah: Aku adalah rahsia Insan dan Insan adalah rahsiaKu.
Maqam makrifat di dalam Islam adalah: Syuhudul Kasrah fil Wahdah wa syuhudul wahdah fil kasrah. Itulah rahsia orang makrifat, yaitu memandang yg banyak pada YG SATU, memandang SATU pada yg banyak. Kau tak perasan persamaan antara kedudukan Isa Al Masih dgn apa yg aku sebutkan? Hanya Islam sahaja yg dapat menyampaikan manusia pd PenciptaNya, melalui jalan makrifat.
Fikir2kan lah
Bravo Zaid. Very clear and concise explanation. Thank you
Salam Bro Syukri,
Alhamdulillah, Syukran. Kebenaran sentiasa akan tetap mengatasi kebathilan. Mereka anggap kita umat Islam jahil, sedangkan agama yg mereka sendiri anuti sesat dan tak masuk akal.
Namun sama2lah kita meneruskan perjuangan Rasulullah SAW untuk berdakwah kpd mereka yg jahil dan mendoakan mereka agar diberikan hidayah seperti yg dilakukan Rasulullah SAW.
Ya Allah, Yaa Muqallibal Qulub, Thabbit Quluubana ‘ala diinik. Ya Tuhan yg membolak balik kan hati, tetapkan hati kami kpd agamaMu yaitu Islam). Amin
Wassalam
To Zaid,
You said to Hamzah, : zaid, Feb 17th, 2010 at 5:57 pm ……. I have went through all your posts, but nowhere I can find Jesus directly declares himself “I AM GOD”.
Most commonly found are indirect quotes like, Jesus is the TRUTH, THE WAY, THE WORD OF GOD, THE ONLY SON, THE LIFE, THE ONLY PATH, THE ALPHA & OMEGA etc….(Zaid)
Sonlight’s comment: Not only here (John 8:58-59) did Jesus apply the name of God to Himself i.e Jesus’ “I AM” statement in (John 8:58-59) which implies that Jesus is God. (Sonlight, Feb 16th, 2010 at 1:26 am).
You mentioned “THE ALPHA & OMEGA…” ..Zaid .
This is from Isaiah 41:4 where God says – “Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.” – ESV
In the New Testament we find Jesus saying:” I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” – Revelation 22:13 and Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
So again we see Jesus using terms for God -The First( or Alpha) and the Last (or Omega – this is the last letter of the Greek alphabet like the English letter Z.) and applying those terms to Himself. Again Jesus is indicating He is God.
Other examples: John 11:25,26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,” -ESV
Here Jesus refers to Himself as “the resurrection.”
Revelation 17:14 “14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings,…….” – The Lamb, who is Jesus, is King of king; one of the names by which God is known.
John 14:6 -Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me…” Jesus is THE TRUTH
John 8:12 – Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” Jesus is the LIGHT
The previous verses (starting from ALPHA and OMEGA) contain terms that Christians consider as referring to God. (i.e. : The First, the Last, the resurrection, King of kings, the Truth, the Light).
FYI, I believe those terms (i.e. : The First, the Last, the resurrection, King of kings, the Truth, the Light) is also among Allah’s 99 names.
Jesus is referring to himself by Divine names. I , for one, believe Jesus is saying He is God.
(Muslims will accept that those are terms for the Divine but that it does not apply to Jesus, I believe)
I have shared the verses above for everyone’s consideration. ( They are in cyber-space)
For those who still say: “But Jesus does not say – I AM GOD anywhere in the Bible”, my reply is ” You answer to God on Judgement Day.”
There are other issues that some Muslims avoid in their attempt to discredit Christian belief. e.g
Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59). So Jesus existed before Abraham. What does that make Jesus? God? or Angel?
Also Zaid, you say:-’So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body…. ‘ zaid,Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am,
My reply: You are twisting the words of the Bible. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59).
How does what you say:”So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body..,(Zaid)” tie in with the statement : ” ..before Abraham was(existed)..”(John 8:58-59). Where is the connection? Please show me the connection. I wish to be polite but you are talking nonsense.
Peace sonlight,
I can see you got a bit worked out here to prove Jesus is your God… and desperate too. Cool down man!
You ask me 1 Main Question, where is the connection? I very much like to give you an elaborated explanation, but I bet you’ll never understand my words.
I repeat my questions again,
1) If God is omnipresent, where is God now? You didn’t answer me yet.
2) You relate the 99 names of Allah to Jesus to show Jesus is God. I say here, the 99 names of Allah is NOT GOD. These are only ATTRIBUTES of God and Allah is also one of them. God is not FAR,SEPARATED,ISOLATED OR HIDDEN FROM HIS CREATIONS. If so, you contradict the points of the 3 omni’s.
3) You are not able to explain or have no idea on the 3 omni’s, but you believe that God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Isn’t this blind faith?
4) In Quran, Surah AL-Baqarah Verse 186 God says: “If my servants ask where am I (God). Say I am near.”
I ask you, is your God far away from you now? Tell me where can you find Him? Please explain.
Let me clarify to you on the 99 attributes of GOD. Out of sheer ignorance, you quoted some of the 99 attributes and relate them to Jesus, then claiming “you see now that Jesus is God?”. Why? Because Jesus inherits these attributes so he becomes God? You are still wrong my friend.
God says “I am near”, meaning that God is Not Separated and is within us and his entire Creations. God is Omnipresent, then how can God be absent from this world and us? The attributes of God are only SIGNS of God existence. These SIGNS are within us, inside us and everywhere in the entire universe. All of us inherit these attributes, and that’s how life was formed and come to existence. Inheriting these attributes doesn’t mean we are God, we are still God creations. We inherit these attributes, thus explain our dependencies to GOD.
If you learn about Law of Inheritance, A child inherits certain attributes from his Father and thus there’s a dependency of the child to the Father. THE FATHER CAN EXIST WITHOUT THE CHILD, BUT THE CHILD CAN NEVER EXIST WITHOUT THE FATHER. GET THE POINT?? This is how Jesus and ALL of us are related to GOD, our shall I say OUR FATHER?
You mentioned Jesus is Son of God, and please don’t deny that the jews are also mentioned as sons of God. You literally tried to elevate Jesus by using Upper Case (Son) and use lower case (sons) for others, to prove Jesus is greater than others.
I emphasize here: A Son inherits his Father DNA and some other attributes but will that make a Son his OWN FATHER?
I know God is beyond any descriptions or examples, but I’m just presenting rational points that probably may lead you to think deeper.
God is, NOT ISOLATED, NOT SEPARATED, NOT THE 99 ATTRIBUTES, NOT HIDDEN, NOT FAR. God is close to His Entire Creations and can never be separated, like the Sun and Its Rays.
Can you see our connection to God now?
Peace
Sonlight says:
There are other issues that some Muslims avoid in their attempt to discredit Christian belief. e.g
Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59). So Jesus existed before Abraham. What does that make Jesus? God? or Angel?
Also Zaid, you say:-’So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body…. ‘ zaid,Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am,
My reply: You are twisting the words of the Bible. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59).
How does what you say:”So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body..,(Zaid)” tie in with the statement : ” ..before Abraham was(existed)..”(John 8:58-59). Where is the connection? Please show me the connection. I wish to be polite but you are talking nonsense.
___________________________________________________________
Sorry, just to add my comments on the above. I have actually answered your questions, but you choose to ignore my points.
In Islam, we don’t just learn to worship, we seek knowledge of God and we KNOW GOD like a son knows his Father. We know how we are connected to God, likewise Jesus. My comments:
QS. Al-A’raf 172
7:172 When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam – from their loins – their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): “Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?”- They said: “Yea! We do testify!” (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: “Of this we were never mindful”:
It is mentioned in the Quran, that God has created our Ruh (Soul or spirit) long before the existence of the entire universe. Our Ruh has testify that God is our Lord, even before any human including ADAM is created or born.
One who already aquire full knowledge of his origin and Inner Self definitely has full awareness that he has existed long before he was born to this world. So, Jesus has spoken the truth, on behalf of all human who are born and created in this world.
Only Islam has the way to acquire knowledge of God.
Only Islam is the true path towards God.
PEACE
To Sonlight:
Jesus never say He is The Alpha and Omega, But Lord GOD. Christians assume that Lord IS Jesus, hence tried to put these words into Jesus mouth.
In the Book of Revelation 1:8 King James Version implies that Jesus said he was Alpha and Omega. Since God says He is Alpha and Omega in Isaiah 44:6 Jesus, according to Christians, is claiming divinity here. However, the wording of King James is inaccurate. Not only do all modern translations clarify it was God who said it, not Jesus, but the conveyor of the words is one of God’s angels.
Revelation 1:1-3
NRSV “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.”
With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Jesus, the Prophet of God.
Revelation 1:8
KJV “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
NIV “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
NASB “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
ASV “I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
RSV ‘“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’
New American Bible (Catholic) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.”
Fifth, Revelation 22:13 is part of the vision of an unknown John (not the author of the gospel) in which he claims a visitation by an angel, mentioned in Revelation 21:09.
NRSV “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, ‘Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.’”
The angel is speaking from Revelation 22:10-13:
NRSV “And he said to me, ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.’
Jesus did not say those words, not is there any indication they refer to him. Then passage continues in verses 14 and 15.
NRSV “Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
This does not appear to be Jesus Christ speaking because the appearance of the first person singular pronoun in 22:16 signals a shift in speaker. Therefore, Alpha and Omega in the passage refers to God Himself, speaking through the angel. This is born out by Revelation 21:5-7 which says:
NRSV “And the One Who was seated on the throne said, ‘See, I am making all things new.’ Also He said, ‘Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.’ Then He said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.’”
What Jesus is reported as saying is,
NRSV, Revelation 22:16; “‘It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.’”
Therefore, for the sake of argument, should the saying “I am the Alpha and the Omega” actually pertain to other than Jesus, can one gamble personal salvation on a vision claimed by an author whose identity is not clear, and whose book is disputed as being reliably canon?
Sixth, what is significant is not so much the use of this name, but the fact that God is always superior to Jesus when the Bible describes the relationship between God and Jesus as explained elsewhere.
We can see from the above that these verses which Christians use to prove that Jesus is the son of God cannot be used in proving the Trinity.
ISLAM is TRUTH.
Peace
To Zaid,
Thank you for your reply. ( on Feb 19th, 2010 at 2:42 from Zaid)
One of the points that seems to come across to me from your reply is: The words “The First”, “The Last”, “Alpha”, and “Omega” in the Bible does not refer to Jesus.
I am sure Muslims will want to convince themselves that it is so. I am well aware that the expression “the First and the Last.. etc” in the Bible, at times only refers to God (and not specifically to Jesus).
However at other times, Christians believe it refers to Jesus. (e.g. – Revelation 2:8 -
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty ………” (ESV)
Please take note of this: “The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.” ( from Revelation 2:8 ). The words “the first and the last” is a term for God.; “who died and came to life” refers to Jesus.
Also : Revelation 1:17,18
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (ESV)
Again the One who calls Himself ” the first and the last,” says he died but is now alive forevermore. Also He has “the keys of Death and Hades.” Christians believe this is Jesus.
(FYI, in some Bibles, the words of Jesus are RED in colour).
Also Christians believe Revelation 22:13-16 are Jesus’ words. -
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end….
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
It would be interesting to see Muslims try to explain who this person is, who calls himself “the first and the last”, who died but is now alive forever and who holds ” the keys of Death and Hades”.
Just sharing some of the problems Muslims will encounter if Muslims try to prove that the terms -
-”The First”, “The Last”, “Alpha”, and “Omega” in the Bible does not at times refer to Jesus ,( that is Jesus using some of God’s titles to refer to Himself and therefore saying He is God.)
Peace Sonlight,
Your concept of God and Islam is different. I do not want to dispute on your beliefs.
Positively, at the least we have better understanding of each other’s religion. I hope you have thoroughly read all my posts and understand what I have written.
In Islam, we do not wait for our lives to end to find God. We seek and we find God in our very life. Life itself is God, and He manifested it in His Creations and thats how we exist with our breath and consciouness today. Allah is a hidden treasure behind every life and God’s creations. God says, ” You will not find me in other human, but I am within your inner SELF”. When we mention SELF, it refers to our consiousness. This SELF is related to GOD like the Sun and it rays, and it is within every Life in the entire universe.
I hope you also now understand about the 99 Names of Allah. These are attributes of God inherited throughout every of God’s creations. That’s what make our Life and cosciousness today. In Islam, we seek the path towards God through “Hakikat”. The peak of Hakikat is Makrifat. In Makrifat, Truth is unveiled and one will only see the TRUTH of GOD within every being and oneself. At this peak, his conciousness is only with God and he witnesses none other but God throughout the entire life and his Inner self. This is the status of God’s prophets, saints and for some who had purify their hearts and prostrate to God with utmost sincerity and those who had expelled the worldly and evil desires out from their inner self.
Islam is Truth
Peace
Dear ALL Christian Brothers and Sisters,
I guess, there’s no way Christians can prove that Jesus is God unless they can quote Jesus directly saying, “I AM GOD”.
Jesus and all other prophets were given authority by God to perform certain miracles. Not in any way , Jesus is much superior than other prophets of God. Each prophet had his own miracles with God’s will, much as a proof to their ppl on their authenticity of being the True messengers of God.
Christians throughout their bible, only try to proof Jesus Godship, quoting each word spoken by Jesus and claiming how these words are actually God in saying. However, none ever proves that Jesus is actually His Father (God), still much so far of being The Holy Spirit at the same time. There’s no concrete proof or explanation that Jesus,The Holy Spirit and God (The Father) are actually God in 3 separate forms. Words spoken by Jesus always refer His Father as a separate being, and The Holy Spirit is clearly impossible of Jesus being in another form.
So much of Jesus being the Truth, The Only Way, The Path, The Light which Christians claim these are God’s titles, hence Jesus is God. Islam provides a much clearer path and guidance for its followers to reach God. Christians are not able to show or prove that Jesus is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Islam teaches its followers the way of life as much as the way to God too.
We humans are closely knitted to God, like the Sun and its rays. The attributes of God as Christians claim only apply to Jesus, are as much apply to all mankind and the entire life which God has created. It is to one’s ignorance that God is actually separated or isolated from God’s creation. If such is the truth, then God is no longer omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.
The Quran and Hadis quoted several God sayings:-
” If my servants ask about Me, say I am near”.
“God is closer to Human than their jugular veins”.
“God is with you, wherever you are”,
“You will not find Me in other human, but I AM within your inner Self”.
“Whichever direction you cast your vision, I am present “.
Islam shows the true path towards God. Islam guides its followers towards direct relationship with God, without need of mediators. Islam explains how every life is related to God and how the 99 attributes of God are manifested throughout every existence of life in the entire universe. Humans are “perfect” mirrors of GOD. If God chooses to unveil Godself to His chosen ones, one will witness his life and existence “in unity” with the Existence of God. At this stage, his SELF consciousness is united with GOD, hence one will see himself as the “Truth, “The Light” etc..
Jesus, ultimately is one of God’s chosen ones. In history of Islam, there are several others chosen by God who had uttered “The Truth” within his SELF which in Islam we termed as “Fana’ ul Fana.”
God is near to His Creations, never separated, not isolated, not far BUT GOD IS NOT HIS CREATIONS.
It is time to ponder and seek the Ultimate Truth within your ENTIRE SELF, through Islam.
Islam is Truth.
To Zaid,
You say:’zaid.Feb 21st, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Dear ALL Christian Brothers and Sisters,
I guess, there’s no way Christians can prove that Jesus is God unless they can quote Jesus directly saying, “I AM GOD”.’
Sonlight’s reply: Even if there were a verse in the Bible that goes : ‘Jesus said – I am God’ , Muslims will not accept that Jesus is God. I say this because of Muslim’s response to some Bible verses that are very problematic for Islam.
To give you two examples, firstly the “I AM” statement of Jesus (John 8:58-59) that states Jesus existed before Abraham; and secondly – John 1:1 ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (The Word is another name for Jesus).
My perception is that when Muslims cannot give a good response to these problematic verses, they simply try to cast doubt on the verse’s authenticity (e.g. zaid,Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Peace Sonlight,
I shall not argue on the authenticity of Jesus statement in your bible, as its your belief not mine. – zaid)
So it is actually just a weak excuse for the Muslims to say that Muslims do not accept Jesus as God because the words – ‘Jesus said – I am God’ does not appear in the Bible.
I have referred to you(Zaid) and your words as an example to support my point but you can be sure of this; I have come across other Muslims who do the same thing when they come across problematic verses ( that is: problematic for Islam) in the Bible.
Readers should ask themselves , honestly, – “Is this acceptable?”
Peace…….. out
Precisely and bravo, Sonlight!
These poor, misguided muslims are only mis-reading back into the Gospel text what they want to make it say, But NEVER the proper interpretation whatsoever!
They just blindly practise more and more Mis-representations and this proves their twisted minds that have already been LONG POISONED by misled typical islamic polemics, and nothing else…!
Actually there was AT LEAST One reference where Jesus accepted OPENLY the fact that He was divine and had the qualities of divinity.
This was when Jesus’ own disciple Thomas directly addressed Christ Jesus as HIS LORD AND HIS GOD.
This is recorded in John 20: 24-29 :-
Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ‘WE HAVE SEEN THE LORD.’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.’ Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.’ Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.’ Thomas ANSWERED AND SAID TO HIM (Apekrithe Thomas kai eipen auto), ‘MY LORD and MY GOD!’
Then Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.’” John 20:24-29
Note that the disciples told Thomas that they had seen the Lord which the latter refused to believe without proof. When Christ then appeared to convince Thomas that he had been raised the latter responds by calling Jesus his Lord and God. The statement of the disciples identifying Jesus as the Lord provides strong contextual proof that the One whom Thomas addressed as his very own Lord is none other than Christ. In fact, Jesus had already told his followers that he is their Lord and Teacher:
“You call me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, FOR SO I AM. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.” John 13:13-14
Moreover, John in his prologue identified Jesus as the Logos or Word of God who is God in essence:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made… He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.” John 1:1-3, 10, 14
Furthermore, the Greek construction Apekrithe … kai eipen auto (“answered and said to him”) is a common idiom in the New Testament. This idiom always precedes a statement directed to the referent of the dative auto (“to him”). In other words, the statement “answered and said” refers to the referent signified by the indirect object (“to him”) which in this context would be Jesus Christ. There is no lexical support in any of the standard Greek references (BAGD, M&M, and Louw & Nida) where this idiom is to be taken as a relative address, as not addressing the object that the pronoun auto points to, but to someone else. There is no grammatical support in any of the standard grammars for claiming that such a construction is to be understood as referring to someone other than the addressee of the indirect object.
Muslims have NO WAY to rebut the facts above, especially when we analyse this passage in the original language and Culture of the historical context.
Jesus Christ ACCEPTED OPENLY, the Worship of His followers and NEVER scolded them, for openly calling Him directly as – ‘Lord and God’!
On the other hand, if Jesus was not divine, He would have given Thomas and his other followers like him, a severe REBUKE and scolding for giving Jesus SUCH WORSHIP! And he would tell them to ‘worship the true God instead’!
BUT, Jesus Christ NEVER gave them any such scolding or rebuke…THINK about that, all you muslim polemicists down here..!
Wasallaam, Hamzah.
To Hamzah,
Thank you for your informative response.
Haha, Good effort Hamzah.
First of all, we Muslims don’t believe that Jesus was ever crucified yet even resurrected.
Those events and stories you quoted about Jesus crucifixion and resurrection are fabrications and lies by Bible authors. They wrote what they like and what they wanted Jesus to be, so what ever Thomas sayings are “fictions” and simply cooked up.
It is so interesting to note that the FIRST Gospel Mark does not contain passages of the resurrection. These were later added to Matthew and Luke, whom ALL are anonymous and mysterious. How could you believe books whose authors are unknown?? Amazingly, Mark was the FIRST writer of the crucifixion though he is NOT ONE OF THE EYE WITNESS! Mark who? Luke who? Matthew who? Tell me who they are? Jesus disciples?
EVEN Paul, the earliest Christian writer, never records the Gospel version. Paul only says Jesus was “crucified for the sins of mankind” and he “rose from the dead”, which does not explain anything. Paul asserts that Jesus was crucified, yet did not mention any details which would later be recorded in the gospels.
Obviously, Paul knew nothing about the resurrection and the physical appearance of Jesus, yet even about the ascension of Jesus to heaven. These was added by Bible authors after Mark. (PS: How could Bible words be added, ommited, edited??, Isn’t God’s words supposed to be perfect?)
I quote:
__________________________________________________________
Paul’s proclamation was that God had raised Jesus into God’s very life. That was Easter for Paul. For Paul there were no empty tombs, no disappearance from the grave of the physical body, no physical resurrection, no physical appearances of a Christ who would eat fish, offer his wounds for inspection, or rise physically into the sky after an appropriate length of time. None of these ideas can be found in reading Paul. For Paul the body of Jesus who died was perishable, weak, physical. The Jesus who was raised was clothed by the raising God with a body fit for God’s kingdom. It was imperishable, glorified, and spiritual.
(John Shelby Spong, Resurrection: Myth or Reality, p. 241)
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Even Gentile historians NEVER mentioned the resurrection of Jesus. The Jewish philosopher Philo (50 CE) absolutely makes no reference to Jesus’ crucifixion. Philo- Judeaus lived during Jesus’ life and never mentioned about Jesus resurrection. Can’t believe how could he have missed out these BIG and Important event?
Think about it!
Peace
Good point you have there Bro Zaid. Keep it up bro for Allah is with you as He has said it that Truth will surely stands out clear from error.
Peace to you now Bro.
HAMZAH, YOU ARE SO SCREWED.
Hamzah Quoted
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made… He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.” John 1:1-3, 10, 14
______________________________________________________________________________
GOD’S WORDS REFERRING TO JESUS? OR DIRECT PLAGIARISM BY JOHN??
Philo wrote before any of the New Testament Writers. He developed the Logos doctrine of Alexandrian Judaism.
Philo never indicated the “the word” is God.He said that this word, the breath that came out of God’s mouth, was an entity, a divine person: the Word of God, who created the universe. Like the Greek philosophers, Philo used the terms “Word” (Logos) and “Wisdom” (Sophia) interchangeably to describe this being. He wrote that the Word was “begotten” (born by God) because it came out of God’s mouth. He wrote that the Word was a god, the Son of God, extremely close to God, and second in position.
A few decades later, the Word appeared in the writings of John.
Compare:
*Philo
*John
in sequential order below.
________________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Son followed the ways of his Father
“… {the Word} the Son thus begotten followed the ways of his Father, and formed the different things, looking to the archetypal patterns which the Father supplied.
John
Jesus followed the ways of his Father
“… Verily, I {Jesus} say to you, The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do; for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does.” (John 5:19-20 KJV) “All things were made by him {Jesus}; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3 KJV)
________________________________________________________________________________
Philo
God used the Word to create the world
“… the Word wherewith also He {God} made the world.” “The Word … of God through whom the whole universe was framed.”
John
Jesus created all things
“All things were made by him {Jesus}; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:3 KJV)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Word is the fountain of water for eternal life
“ … the supreme Word of God, who is the fountain of Wisdom, in order that by drinking from that stream may gain eternal life instead of death …”
John
Jesus gives water for eternal life
“whoever drinks of the water that I {Jesus} will give him will never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” (John 4:14 NASB) “And let everyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who wishes take the water of {eternal} life as a gift.” (Revelation 22:17 NRSV)
________________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Word dwells in and among us
“… the divine Word dwells in and walks around those who honor the spiritual life.”
John
Jesus dwells in and among us
“… Christ lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20 NASB) “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us …” (John 1:14 NASB)
________________________________________________________________________________
Philo
When the Word dwells not in our soul to admonish it, the soul is free of guilt
“For as long as the divine Word has not come into our soul, as to some dwelling place, all its works {the works of the soul} are free from guilt, since the priest … who alone can admonish and bring it to wisdom, is far away.”
John
Jesus dwells in a believer. He admonished the Jews, so they are not free of guilt
“He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.” John 6:56 KJV) “If I {Jesus, the Word} had not come and spoken {admonish} to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.” (John 15:22 NASB)
______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
God draws people through the Word
“… the same Word, by which He made the universe, is that by which He draws the perfect man … to Himself.”
John
God draws people through Jesus
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” (John 14:6 NASB)
______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Word is the prophet of God
“… the Word, who is the interpreter and prophet of God.”
John
Jesus is the prophet of God
“… they said, ‘This {Jesus} is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world’ ” (John 6:14 NASB)
______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
The Word is the judge
“… the Word appointed as judge and mediator, who is called Angel.”
John
Jesus is the judge
“For the Father … has committed all judgment to the Son.” (John 5:22 KJV)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Philo
That rock is manna and manna is the Word
“In another place he {Moses} uses a synonym for this rock and calls it ‘manna.’ Manna is the divine Word.”
John
Jesus is the manna
“I {Jesus} am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. … I am the living bread that came down out of heaven.” (John 6:48-49, 51 NASB)
________________________________________________________________________________
SO HAMZAH, So much of your God’s words tryig to prove Jesus Godship.
Peace
Islam is the Truth
Peace all Bros and Sisters,
History of Jesus in the Bible
The first writer to mention Jesus was Josephus, who wrote “Antiquities of the Jews” in 93 AD. He was writing a story that was told to him by believers. He wasn’t born until after the alleged events of the New Testament, as were the people he spoke with. As such, this isn’t a first- or even a second-hand account.
Even then, some have argued whether or not Josephus really wrote about the Jesus of the gospels, or whether or not that was added later. Historians agree is that the work itself has corruption from later writers; the disagreement is which parts were added later, and which parts were from Josephus himself.
Seneca and Pliny the Elder recorded events throughout the Roman Empire and lived during the alleged lifetime of Jesus. They never mentioned Jesus. Clearly, his fame was unknown.
Philo Judaes, however, would’ve been the best source. Hea contemporary (20 BC-50 AD), and he lived in Jerusalem. He recorded major and minor events of the region in great detail. But, in all his volumes of writings, he never mentions a man named Jesus, nor mentions the events depicted in the Bible. Why would he leave out a powerful figure who rose from the dead if it really happened?
The gospels were written 40-100 years after the alleged resurrection, depending on the gospel in question and which source you wish to use. The epistles were written by men who never saw Jesus, even by their own account. The epistles of James don’t even mention a person by the name of Jesus. As such, none of the biblical writings can be reliably taken as accounts about the history of Jesus.
All we have is hearsay, and if we accept hearsay as evidence, there’s no end to the fantastic histories we would be forced to believe.
I can’t imagine how could one risk his Salvation upon such beliefs, when the sources, writers, authors are mysterious, unknown and doubtful.
Islam is Truth
Peace
Now you desperate and poisoned-minded muslim polemicists try to pretend to be so-called ‘historians’ BUT with no real or relevant scholastic credentials whatsoever. Before that, you all FAILED miserably to explain away anything about my Post when I highlighted the FACT that Jesus fully received, accepted AND ENDORSED His disciple Thomas’s worship and statement of adoration towards Jesus Christ as his Lord and his God!
As found here, in Black and White in the Holy Injil as recorded by the Hawariyun (Apostle) John :
’ Thomas ANSWERED AND SAID TO HIM (Apekrithe Thomas kai eipen auto), ‘MY LORD and MY GOD!’
Then Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.’”
John 20:24-29
Your typical muslim pathetic NON-answer : that the Gospels in the Bible are all falsified and therefore unreliable is only very convenient for you all but very UNFORTUNATELY for you all, proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL :-pp HAHAHAHA!
You have not proven beyond a shadow of any doubt, the factuality or truthfulness of your assertion and claim!
Thus, it only remains as a mere, pitiful CLAIM of you muslim polemicists thats backed up NOT BY FACTS, but only by muslim polemics and anti-christian prejudices and nothing else!
The idea and allegation that the Bible is false is something that even non-Christian scholars have never been able to prove factually or historically, much less the muslim missionaries..!
(
Actually, scholars have discovered that, if the same conditions and objective examinations are honestly applied to the Quran, this book FAILS the tests miserably!
First of all, what we have as the so-called ‘valid Quran’ today, is itself NOT the first hand testimony of its very first witnesses, let alone VERIFIABLE nor traceable to them :
The quran, you have today IS AT BEST, ONLY THE FIFTH HAND TESTIMONY…
First, It was on what itself claims as the ‘mother of the Book in heaven’ – the so-called ummul kitab,
2nd) Then, parts of that became parts of the transmission via the ‘angel’ to muhd your ‘prophet’,
3rd) Next, Muhd who had to memorize it and learn it correctly – even with revision courses at night with the so-called angel ‘Jibril’,
4th) then down to muhd’s follower/s who themselves had to memorize the stuff from him, AFter that!
5th) Then, from THAT, what 3rd Caliph Othman b.Affan edited, removed and rearranged in his latest revised standard version with the help of his editorial committee headed by Zaid b.Thabit! (After burning all the differing versions of the then existing qurans in an act of wanton destruction)!
This is confirmed by the Hadith al-Bukhari here:
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
‘ Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to ‘Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) …” So ‘Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, “Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may compile the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you.” Hafsa sent it to ‘Uthman. ‘Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, ‘Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and ‘AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. ‘Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, “In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue.”
‘ They did so, and when they had written many copies, ‘Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. ‘Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies,TO BE BURNT (DIMUSNAHKAN DENGAN DIBAKAR!). …” ‘
Here we see how the seventh-century problem of having different versions of the Qur’an was fixed BY A MAN – and NOT by Allah.
It was fixed by Uthman standardizing one version of the Qur’an and ordering that all others be burnt
So, don’t come telling us that the quran you have TODAY, is the very same as what was in the ‘ummul kitab’ (mother of the book)!
It is even HIGHLY DOUBTFUL that what quran you have today even REMOTELY resembles the one in the seventh century of the time of the first 3 caliphs! After all that manual manipulation of it by human intervention and edition!
Factually and objectively, muslims, your quran, today, is at BEST, only and merely the fifth-hand testimony from what was supposedly the original one. NOBODY can find the original autographs, since, even according to your Hadith Sahih, khalifah Uthman sudah musnahkan SEMUA mashaf2 yang ada dengan membakar segalagalanya dalam api besar.
Today’s quran adalah hasil penyelarasan dan revisi di tangan sebuah KOMITI yg di ketuai oleh seorang muslim muda bernama Zaid b.Thabit – who was appointed by Khalifah Uthman!
So, hasil kerja Komiti ini adalah mustahil sebagai sesuatu yang datang daripada tangan Tuhan Sendiri, bukan!??
Ia hanya adalah karya komiti khalifah ke-3 Uthman yg diketuai oleh si-Zaid b.Thabit itu sahaja, no more, and no less…
So, don’t be big hypocrites over this Blog, by coming and making all sorts of fallacious and humorous claims against the authenticity and validity of the Bible / Gospels, WHEN your quran itself is TODAY, such a doubtful book, with dubious questionable origins and the result of an Editorial committee and at the very best, ONLY the FIFTH-HAND testimony from what was claimed to be ‘original’.
This itself shows why NO reputable, and thinking Scholar worth his/her Credentials, EVER takes the quran seriously, and at least as a reliable ’source’ for the authentic HISTORICAL life and Ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ / Sayidina Rabbani Isa al-Masih.
For THAT, the overwhelming majority of REPUTABLE scholars go to and rely upon the 4 Gospels that we have in the Bible today (but NEVER to the quran).
This speaks VOLUMES for the reliability and historical validity of the NT Gospels and conversely, about the doubtfulness and awful, abysmal UNReliability of the ‘quran al-karim’ as a source of truth and facts.
When you live in such glass houses, its very hypocritical and stupid of you all to throw stones without thinking first about consequences to yourselves, o muslims here…!
Wasalaam, Hamzah.
Dearest Hamzah
You are just too desperate to raise unfounded doubts on Quran authenticity. Caliph Uthman did not order the “many versions” of Quran to be burned. There’s only 1 QURAN and everyone knows the source is only from Muhammad SAW. Quran has been passed down from the sahabats, caliphs and many muslims who have then memorized the entire Quran in exact completeness and accuracy. It is proven till now, that the complete Quran is in the heart of many in COMPLETENESS.
How can you compare to your Gospels which your own Bible scholars admit the many errors and contradictions. The writers were anonymous and no one knows who these writers really are. You are not able to trace their origins, birth or biography, so how can you rely your trust on them? For sure none of them were eyewitness of Jesus, or even came close to Jesus genuine disciples.
Isn’t it weird that NOT A SINGLE GOSPEL OR BIBLE WAS WRITTEN OR EXISTED DURING JESUS TIME AND ENDORSED BY JESUS HIMSELF? THERE ARE MANY GREEK OR JEWISH PHILOSOPHERS DURING JESUS LIFE WHO WROTE MANY BOOKS AND SCRIPTURES. WHY NONE EVER WROTE ABOUT JESUS CRUCIFIXION AND RESURRECTION? WASN’T JESUS THE MAN GOD GREAT ENOUGH TO EARN THEIR ATTENTION OR HONOUR?
Back to Quran; In the former, Quran was written and recorded without vowels. So to avoid confusions and different pronounciations by different Muslims tribes while reciting Quran, Caliph Uthman decided to standardized the Quran with added vowels, so that it is recited uniformly according to what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad SAW. The old writings without the vowels were then destroyed. This was the main reasons, not according to your allegations that there were many versions.
You may challenge this fact, that Quran may be distorted overtime during Prophet Muhammad’s life to Caliph Uthman. There’s one point that we can be very sure. The Quran has been and currently still be memorized completely and in the heart of many Muslims. But your bible??
Lets take up a test. Throw all bibles, all Quran and other religious books in this world. I am very sure, insya Allah, only Quran will prevail as still, there are many Muslims in the entire world who have memorized the Quran by heart, word by word without any loss. This is the TRUE miracle of Allah, that even those who may not understand the meaning, are able to memorize and Recite the Quran in eloquent manner.
So Hamzah, name me just one of your Jesus worshipper who had memorized your entire bible. Can you?? Your allegations on the many versions of Quran destroyed by Caliph Usman is just your desperate excuse to defend your worthless and corrupted bible. While current remains and being preserved as it is, your bible has gone through many revisions and modifications from time to time. Bible Scholars themselves admit that there are many forgeries, falsifications and fabrications which are edited, added or omitted from your bible.
Isn’t God’s words perfect enough to be preserved?
BTW, Hamzah. In my previous posts, I have ask you and Sonlight to prove Jesus Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence. Where is Your God now? He left you without a message? Let me give you his contact. ITS 1800-KENALDIRI.
God is near, not far, not separated nor isolated. God is near to His Creations, but He is Not His Own Creations. Kenali lah DIRI kamu, akan kamu KENAL Tuhan yg Nyata.
Wassalam
To Zaid
Just sharing an observation.
You say: “In the former, Quran was written and recorded without vowels. So to avoid confusions and different pronounciations by different Muslims tribes while reciting Quran, Caliph Uthman decided to standardized the Quran with added vowels, …. The old writings without the vowels were then destroyed. -zaid’ Feb 24th, 2010 at 8:13 pm”
From my reading, the older parts of the (Hebrew) Bible was written in a slightly different way. (Old Hebrew did not have certain dots and dashe – e.g. like the Old Malay letter ‘E – tanda’ .) Later the Bible was translated into Latin, and other languages.
The fact that there are thousands of bible manuscripts (in Hebrew as well as other languages- many of them from before the appearance of Islam) appears to me as a link with the past. Scholars now can compare the newer manuscripts with the older manuscripts and the different translations.
It seems odd to me that one of the first things to happen in Islam was to have the older writings destroyed. It is like destroying your history; destroying your link with the past.
A Christian writer once wrote that the adding of the dots and dashes to the Hebrew of the Bible makes the Bible ( i.e the Old Testament at least) an interpretation (because Old Hebrew did not have dots and dashes).
Following this type of thinking, I suggest to you that your Quran is also someone’s interpretation ( because , by your own admission, the original writing did not have vowels.)
I mention this now because I have heard it being mentioned by Muslims that the Quran has been wonderfully preserved.
You ask :”Isn’t God’s words perfect enough to be preserved?” – zaid -Feb 24th, 2010 at 8:13 pm.
I see this as an odd thing for Muslims to say when the early Muslims did not preserve the early Quranic verses but had them destroyed ( unlike the Christians and their early writings which they try to preserve and not destroy).
Dear All,
Perhaps it is the Christians who have preserved God’s message. Islam is trying to destroy it.
Hi Sonlight,
First of all Quran means “Recitation”. The Quran was completely memorized by heart and was also recorded in writings. As Hamzah has mentioned, the Quran was recited and memorized frequently by Muslims, even in our 5 prayers a day. The complete Quran till today has been proven to be in the hearts of many Muslims. The entire book of Quran can be memorized in total completeness even by a child at tender age. This is the beauty and miracles of the Quran. I am very sure you are aware of it. Has anyone of you memorize your entire Bible??
Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).
The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.
Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.
It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.
The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.
____________________________________________________________
WHY USMAN DECIDED TO STANDARDIZE THE QURAN?
Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.).
Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.
There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.
The original manuscript of the Qur’an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur’an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur’an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth ‘Umayyad’ Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq.
Some people argue that the present copy of the Qur’an that we have along with the vowels and the diacritical marks is not the same original Qur’an that was present at the Prophet’s time. But they fail to realize that the word ‘Qur’an’ means a recitation. Therefore, the preservation of the recitation of the Qur’an is important, irrespective of whether the script is different or whether it contains vowels. If the pronunciation and the Arabic is the same, naturally, the meaning remains the same too.
Allah has promised in the Qur’an :
“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption). [Al-Qur’an 15:9]
Evidently, the compilation of the Quran can be traced from its roots. What was destroyed were ONLY the unverified copies held by some other Muslims, which could contain mistakes, while the verified ones were and are still available now.
In comparison, your bible didn’t come for Jesus himself. It was only written DECADES after Jesus departure. There are many VERSIONS of your Gospel and each contradicts one other. Your bible has underwent many modifications and Bible Scholars had admitted on the presence of errors and contradictions.
Unlike Muhammad PBUH, Jesus did not himself authenticate the Bible. Bible authors were anonymous and their credibility are highly questionable. Its strange that not a single Gospel or evidences about Jesus Godship were written during Jesus time.
See the differences?
Peace
Islam is Truth
Dear Bros & Sis,
It is interesting to note that the Qur’an perfectly fits its name. Quran means “Readings” or “Recitations”. The fact that Allah has willed to reveal the Qur’an to Muhammad pbuh being illiterate becomes an undisputable proof that its authenticity has been preserved through recitations and backed up by writings. Its beauty is unchallenged for, that till this present day, one can see how beautiful Quran can be memorized and recited, by the young and old, even by a child at early age.
It just proves that the true Words of God are dear to his Creations and close to everyone’s heart, that the entire Quran can be fully memorized and has been very much proven till tiday.
No other books including Bible has been fully memorized by their respective followers and the authenticity of these books other than Quran can never be traced back to its authentic sources. I doubt Jesus had ever seen or read any of the Bible which had been written, yet to endorse its authenticity. So, who owns the authority to confirm and endorse bible authenticity?
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Zaid,
You say to Hamzah:”Lets take up a test. Throw all bibles, all Quran and other religious books in this world. I am very sure, insya Allah, only Quran will prevail as still, there are many Muslims in the entire world who have memorized the Quran by heart, word by word without any loss. This is the TRUE miracle of Allah, that even those who may not understand the meaning, are able to memorize and Recite the Quran in eloquent manner.
So Hamzah, name me just one of your Jesus worshipper who had memorized your entire bible. Can you?? ” – zaid, Feb 24th, 2010 at 8:13 pm.
Sonlight’s comment: – What you have written has been repeated in Islam but is faulty in logic.
You refer to Muslims who are able to memorize the Quran (and say that “This is the TRUE miracle of Allah”) as if this somehow proves Islam to be true.
I wish to bring to your attention to Daniel Tammet (please WIKI) – “Tammet holds the European record for reciting pi from memory to 22,514 digits in five hours and nine minutes on March 14, 2004…Tammet can learn new languages very quickly. To prove this for a documentary film, Tammet was challenged to learn Icelandic in one week. Seven days later he appeared on Icelandic television conversing in Icelandic, with his Icelandic language instructor saying it was “not human” and “genius!”. ” – from WIKI. ( I heard about him first on BBC radio.)
If some persons can memorise the whole Quran, it means that those persons may have amazing memories. It does not mean that the Quran is special or is the words of God.
You are spreading Islamic propaganda, interpreting (and twisting) facts to make them fit the (biased) way you as a Muslim see things.
Also you say:”This is the TRUE miracle of Allah, that even those who may not understand the meaning, are able to memorize and Recite the Quran in eloquent manner. ” – Zaid.
My reply: This further illustrates the twisted way in which you as a Muslim see things.
The reality is, it is a waste of time and effort to memorize words whose meaning one does not understand. What I see as a waste of time and effort; you call a miracle of Allah.
The existance of people like Daniel Tammet proves that memorizing the Quran is not as amazing as you would have everyone believe. It is certainly not a “TRUE miracle of Allah”.
This issue of persons memorizing the whole Quran does not prove that Islam is true.
P.S You use the word ” eloquent ” with regards to persons who are able to memorize and recite the whole Quran.
The dictionary I am referring to defines the word ” eloquent ” as being able to express oneself smoothly and clearly.
I do not doubt that those persons you referred to are able to repeat the words of the Quran smoothly. But the term “express oneself” also means to “say what I think (or what I mean)”. Since the words that those Quran reciters you referred to may have no meaning to them, then the word “eloquent” does not apply to them. They are just parrots repeating words with no meaning.
I suggest that you put forward to readers other examples, rather than parrots, as “True miracle of Allah”.
Sonlight,
Thank you ever so much in illustrating on how desperate christians can be in defending your corrupted “truth”. With the choice of words you have used, you guys are simply the best when it comes to entertainment. Keep it up, because the world sure needs to be entertained once in a while.
Hi Sonlight,
You did not address my postings in its full context. You only chose some of my words to fit into your needs and addressed them. I am not surprised as these are what Christians always do with your bible and other books to prove your “Truth”; by quoting words or verses OUT OF CONTEXT.
I mentioned some can memorize even when they may have not fully understand its meaning. It doesn’t apply to ALL, I’ve mentioned young or old, even child at tender age. It is your “twisted” thoughts that Muslims memorize the entire Quran without understanding its meanings. When we recite and memorize, we learn the meanings at the same time. However, it is still possible for those who memorize without understanding the meanings, due to the beauty of the Quran, how it was revealed in poetric manner.
I’ve mentioned this points mainly to emphasize how Quran has been preserved through “Recitations” besides writings. As Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate, God through the angel Jibrail revealed the Quran to Prophet Muhammad through recitations which was then passed down to the Prophet’s companions who recited, memorized and at the same time recorded them in writings with the prophet’s verifications.
I have proven to you that the Quran has been preserved in its original context all along, as the entire Quran is in the hearts of many till present and the original verified manuscripts are still preserved till today. Rather than proving your bible, you chose to quote “Daniel Tammet” who are not related to our discussions.
BTW, you have not prove to me who authenticate your bible? Jesus?God? Paul? From what I have learned, the 4 Gospels by Mark, Luke, Matthew and John were written at different timings. ALL the 4 Gospels begins with “According To..” So what is according to?? It refers to a 3rd party, so these writers are actually consolidating and compiling the gospels”according to somebody else’s words”. 4 WRITERS, 4 GOSPELS. NOT EVEN ONE OF THEM REMEMBERED TO PUT IN THEIR REFERENCES OR LAST NAME. SO WHO WERE THEY AND WHO ARE THEIR REFERENCES OR SOURCES? SINCE ALL HAD QUOTED THE WORDS FROM SOMEBODY ELSE’S, DON’T YOU THINK YOUR BIBLE CRITICALLY NEEDS TO BE SCRUTINIZED?
Peace
Islam is Truth
Salam,
Zaid, ‘WHO ARE THE AUTHORS OF THE BIBLE’ is the same question that I posted to ‘Truth and Light from the Son’ that until know he did not give me any answer.
According to WIKI ( used by Sonlight ), most of them are unknown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
Unknown author is equivalent to unknown fact. Unknown fact is equivalent to false.
Syukri
Salam Brother Syukri & Muslim Bros,
Precisely, The Christians simply can’t answer to this question. The Christians boast of an excess of 24,000 “ancient manuscripts” of the Bible dating all the way back to the fourth century after Christ (But not back to Christ or the apostles themselves). All Bibles in existence today are compiled from these “ancient manuscripts.
In other words, their gospels only date back to the century when the Trinitarians took over the Christian Church. This was how the Trinity beliefs come into existence, not the real Jesus teachings.
They never seem to realize that all manuscripts from before this period have strangely perished. Or they are simply too embarassed to admit, yet still adamant that they are in the right path.
Dear Christian bros and sis,
Imagine….
If you wite a letter to your wife, girlfriends or loved ones and signed off with..
Your sincerely,
According to… Sonlight. OR..
I issue you a cheque with “According to… followed by my signature”.
How about that? Will you accept it? You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to say that it needs to be investigated or scrutinized.
You guys are just LOST.
Peace
Islam is Truth.
To Zaid
You said :”… This is the TRUE miracle of Allah, that even those who may not understand the meaning, are able to memorize and Recite the Quran in eloquent manner. – zaid, Feb 24th, 2010 at 8:13 pm.
Your calling of the fact that there are Muslims who are able to memorize the whole Quran “..the True miracle of Allah” I see as an attempt to prove Islam to be true.
Also you say: ZAID Feb 27th, 2010 at 9:42 am –“Rather than proving your bible, you chose to quote ‘Daniel Tammet’ who are not related to our discussions.”
My high-lighting of persons like Daniel Tammet (Sonlight, Feb 27th, 2010 at 3:14 am) shows that your “True miracle of Allah” is no miracle (whether the Reciters of the Quran you referred to understand its meaning or not). I am not surprised that you will try to convince everyone that it is not related to our discussion. I high-lighted Daniel Tammet for the benefit of readers. I believe I do not need to elaborate more on this point as the point is quite obvious.
I focused on this point (i.e. your “TRUE miracle of Allah”) because it can be seen, here, as an attempt by you to proof Islam as true. I believe I have proven that your “TRUE miracle of Allah” is no miracle; and therefore fails as a proof of the truth of Islam.
I am curious to know what other proofs you know of to try to convince everyone Islam is true. Those proofs may not be proofs at all, on careful inspection; in which case one must conclude that to believe Islam is true is not reasonable.
Hi Sonlight,
My points mentioned is a proof that Quran has never been changed compared to your Bible. Please address the issue how your bible can be the words of God, since the writers were anonymous. No references, no last names and no gospels written during Jesus life.
How could you 100% be sure the all these words are true. Weren’t there anybody who wrote about Jesus during his life, since Jesus was no ordinary man but GOD? Or somebody had deliberately destroyed the original books and started a new religion akin to their pagan beliefs??
Best Regards
According to…. Zaid. Juz jokin.
Why I am convinced Islam is true. Because what ever was brought by the past prophets down to Jesus are explained conscisely in the Quran. God has sent his messengers to the ppl but time and again the ppl opposed and denied the truth by destroying & corrupting the books; your gospels are not spared. I have beckoned you to prove your Gospels authenticity but you’ve failed.
Allah mentioned Muhammad pbuh is the sealed of all prophets and Quran will be the final revelation. This has been mentioned in the Quran:-
[We have sent down the Reminder, and We will preserve it.] (Al-Hijr 15: 9
[Will they not ponder the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it.] (An-Nisaa’ 4: 82
[If you have doubts about what We have sent down to Our servant, produce another surah equal to it, and call your witnesses, besides Allah, if you are telling the truth. If you do not do that – and you will not do it – then fear the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, made ready for the unbelievers. ] (Al-Baqarah 2: 23-24)
[Say: “If both humanity and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could never produce anything like it, even if they backed each other up.” ] (Al-Israa’ 17: 88)
The Truth indeed, no other prophets, books or religion had come after Muhammad. If Muhammad is false and wrote his own book, he’d avoid such statements coz he knew not what will come after him. Only God knows.
I have lots of proofs to be presented to you about Quran, however it is best if you could read and judge it yourself if you are truly looking for the Truth. Anyway, the choice is yours.
Peace
Sonlight,
Bro Zaid has presented to us with full logical explanation on how the Quran has been preserved with God’s all original words still intact through recitation and texts.
Now stop being an idiotic evangelic Islam basher clown and start answering Bro Zaid question regarding your bible. It will be interesting for us to see now on how you address his question on bible’s authenticity in keeping God’s words.
Are you soooo sure your quran is error-free, I take it just as a shallow and blind claim, o muslims, because as a muslim, you MUST protect the so-called purity of the quran! – or else into HELL you will go, betul-Tak!
BUT, let us listen to another learned AND HONEST muslim scholar, who went to islamic seminary and university in Iraq and knows what he is talking about – unlike so manyu muslims HERE…:-))
“The Qor’an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gernder and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects …
“To sum up, more than one hundred Qor’anic aberrations from the normal rules and structures have been noted…
(Ali Dashti, 23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, California, 1994, pages 48,50)
SO, Is the quran really well-preserved ? We must take a good, HONEST look at this, o muslims!
According to islam’s own history and authentic historical sources there is ADMISSION of the perversion of the Quran :
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
“Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an HAS BEEN LOST, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available”’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).
A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,
“During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded” (73 verses).
The same statement is made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions. On page 72, part 3, the Suyuti says,
“This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the chapter of the Parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, ‘It used to be almost equal to the chapter of the Cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death.”’
What caused the LOSS of the parts of the Quran :
Here are SOME of the causes:
Events Which Led To The Loss Of Some Verses
A Domesticated Animal Eats Qur’anic Verses
In his book (volume 8, part II, pages 235 and 236), Ibn Hazm says plainly,
“The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Qur’anic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it.”
A’isha herself declared that and she knew exactly what she possessed. Also, Mustafa Husayn, who edited and reorganized the book, “al-Kash-shaf” by the Zamakh-Shari, asserts this fact in page 518 of part 3. He says that the ones who related this incident and said that a domesticated animal ate the verses were reliable persons among them ’Abdulla Ibn Abi Bakr and A’isha herself. This same story has been mentioned also by Dar-al-Qutni, al-Bazzar and al Tabarani, on the authority of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq who heard it from ’Abdulla who himself heard it from A’isha.
So, my poor muslim misionaries, the quran is FAR, VERY fery far, from being a preserved book and truly far from perfect – for anybody’s guidance. THAT much is the hard facts on the ground.
Hamzah.
Welcome back Hamzah,
So much of your intelligence about Islam, all Cut and Paste stuff from your corrupted and deceitful http://www.answeringislam.org and faithfreedom sites. This Suyuti Itqaan balderdash comes only from sites run by Ali Sina’s FFI, WikiIslam, Islam Watch and sites of other answering-Islam goons like Silas, Robert Spencer, Sam Shamoun, who cannot even produce that in its original Arabic and distort.
Just would like to remind you Mr Hamzah, your “intelligence” is crap. Please quote from authentic sources and please give your references and sources in detailed. Seems like you can’t drop your “Christianity” habits to rely on unauthentic sources just like your Bible to prove your “Truth”.
There is nothing of the sort in Suyuti Itqaan. It is all mistranslation, misreport and distortion, deliberately carried out by these non-muslims hypocrites. BTW, there are hundreds of Quran memorizers and reciters since Muhammad pbuh life. Nothing of which you claimed has been lost from the Quran as Quran had and always been in the heart of Muslims eversince and forever.
I quote the exact story that you have misquoted about Umar Ibn Khattab:
You quote
_______________________________________________________________________________
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
“Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an HAS BEEN LOST, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available”’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).
_______________________________________________________________________________
Here is the complete story
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet’s Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), “Umar has come to me and said: “Casualties were heavy among the Qurra’ of the! Qur’an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra’ on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur’an be collected.” I said to ‘Umar, “How can you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?” ‘Umar said, “By Allah, that is a good project. “Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which ‘Umar had realized.” Then Abu Bakr said (to me). ‘You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur’an and collect it in one book).” By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur’an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, “How will you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?” Abu Bakr replied, “By Allah, it is a good project.” Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar. So I started looking for the Qur’an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:
‘Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa’ (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur’an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with ‘Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of ‘Umar.
You Christians are just too fond of quoting verses OUT OF CONTEXT. Please reply on your bible authenticity please.
There are more that I wish to post against your allegations. Insya Allah I will.
Peace
Islam is Truth.
Welcome back Hamzah,
Impressive “Intelligence” you’ve got there. Non stop cut & paste stuff from your corrupted http://www.answeringislam.org and faithfreedom sites. This Suyuti Itqaan balderdash you’ve got comes only from sites run by Ali Sina’s FFI, WikiIslam, Islam Watch and sites of other answering-Islam goons like Silas, Robert Spencer, Sam Shamoun, who cannot even produce that in its original Arabic and distort.
There is no such statement made by Suyuti or any Tafsir expert. These polemic sites just quote fraudulent reference numbers and distort by adding their own words in the translated narrations. Silly and desperate folks like you fall for their rubbish, without even asking them to show the exact quote in Arabic or Persian.
There is nothing of the sort in Suyuti Itqaan. It is all mistranslation, misreport and distortion, deliberately carried out by these hypocrites.
Please, quote from authentic sources and references to prove your points. You Christians just can’t discard your habits in quoting verses “Out of Context” just like your interpretation of your own bible. BTW, you have yet to prove me on your bible authenticity.
________________________________________________________________________________
About your allegations on Umar Ibn Khattab
You quote
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
“Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an HAS BEEN LOST, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available”’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).
________________________________________________________________________________
I quote the Full Story
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet’s Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), “Umar has come to me and said: “Casualties were heavy among the Qurra’ of the! Qur’an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra’ on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur’an be collected.” I said to ‘Umar, “How can you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?” ‘Umar said, “By Allah, that is a good project. “Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which ‘Umar had realized.” Then Abu Bakr said (to me). ‘You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur’an and collect it in one book).” By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur’an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, “How will you do something which Allah’s Apostle did not do?” Abu Bakr replied, “By Allah, it is a good project.” Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar. So I started looking for the Qur’an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:
‘Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa’ (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur’an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with ‘Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of ‘Umar.
_______________________________________________________________________________
There were easily hundreds of Muslims memorizers and reciters who had the entire Quran in their hearts during prophet Muhammad’s life. Your allegations about Umar Ibn Khattab are just lame without knowing the whole story. Much proven, the entire Quran is still in the hearts of many Muslims today and after I will reply to your other allegations in later post, insya Allah.
Again just to remind, prove your Bible authenticity Please!
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Zaid
You say: zaid, Mar 1st, 2010 at 10:01 am”……. Please address the issue how your bible can be the words of God, since the writers were anonymous. No references, no last names and no gospels written during Jesus life.”
Your question is not very accurate ( and reveals Muslims misconception of what the Gospel is) but I will attempt to answer it anyway. (I am only attempting to answer this question as I believe not everyone would go to the web-site ‘Answering Islam’ for answers. The people at Answering Islam are certainly more knowledgeable than me.)
The Bible is Scripture (God’s word) for the Christian. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…” – 2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)
Firstly the Bible is actually a collection of books written over a period of hundreds of years. Therefore, many persons had a hand in writing the books of the Bible. But Christians believe they were all moved by God when they wrote the books (as the verse I quoted states)
The origins of some of the books do not present any problems as I understand it. For example : The letters of Saint Peter. (1 Peter 1:1) -”Peter, an apostle of Jesus. To God’s elect” . This indicates that he wrote the letter. (There was only one apostle named Peter so his not giving of a last name is no issue.) It cannot be said that this book was written by an anonymous person.
Also I wish to point out the verse -1 Peter 2:24“He (Christ) himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.”. Here we have part of the Gospel message; i.e. that Jesus died on the cross (tree) for the sins of the world.
So here is a book which claims to have been authored by one of the original twelve disciples of Jesus telling us that Jesus was crucified for the sins of man.
Muslims must reject this (of course) to remain Muslims , e.g. -zaid, Feb 23rd, 2010 at 9:49 am
“……First of all, we Muslims don’t believe that Jesus was ever crucified yet even resurrected.
Those events and stories you (Hamzah) quoted about Jesus crucifixion and resurrection are fabrications and lies by Bible authors. They wrote what they like and what they wanted Jesus to be, so what ever Thomas sayings are “fictions” and simply cooked up.” – Zaid.
So Zaid, I do not know how you want me to prove the authenticity of the books of the Bible, since you will not accept it anyway.
I wish to mention a few more points to share my understanding of the origins of some of the books of the Bible and the issues that make the origins of some of them less clear. (The opinions of closed- minded, brain-washed Muslims about the “problems” of the origin of the books of the Bible is of no concern to me since they have declared as “fabrications and lies by Bible authors” points which are at the heart of Christianity. They cannot accept all that I say, of course. If they did, they would cease to be Muslims.)
to be continued…
Actually, Zaid, YOU are the biggest Goon of all…Hahaha! Those qre REAL and authentic quotes indeed, only you have not seen them ‘cos your muslim ulamaks have kept them away from the public eyes, your MERE denial will never chane the hard facts on the ground that the quran is indeed a human book and proven to be NOT from Allah whatsoever…no matter what you try to say to avoid this VERY UNComfortable fact and issue for muslims!
Your ulamaks are at a total loss to explain the historical developments surrounding the
editings and re-editings of the quran.
So-called memorisation by the hafizuns alone never safe-guarded your quran from errors and multiple versions and readings with variant meanings, these variants were so severe and serious as to cause WARS and ‘fellow-muslims’ to actually KILL EACH OTHER!
This is ALREADY confirmed by the Hadith al-Bukhari here:
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
‘ Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their – the people of SHAM and IRAQ (all muslims!)- differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to ‘Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before THEY DIFFER about the Book (Quran) …”
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/061.sbt.html#006.061.510
I quote from the “valid hadith” islamic source above to show you that these QUOTES EXIST AND ARE NOT DREAMT UP -like your FALSE ACCUSATIONS against the Gospels of Jesus Christ, o muslims.
So, are there errors in the quran, of grammar, vocabulary and contents, SURE there is – MORE THAN 100 Errors and inconsistencies throughout the quran :
I quote from the Bahasa Melayu translation of the ulama’s Ali Dashtis Honest and objective research (unlike your intentional HIDING OF FACTS abt your fallacious quran)! :-
Sesuatu sifat yang jelas berkurangan dalam keangkuhan beberapa dai Islam. Sebaliknya, salah seorang yang sanggup menjatikan dirinya ialah Ali Dashti, beliau adalah seorang ‘alim Islam yang cukup berilmu dan berpengetahuan, berasal dari rantau timur-tengah.
Dalam Bukunya yang mengkaji karir dan kehidupan Nabi Muhammad berjudul :”23 Years – A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad”, beliau membuat pengakuan tentang al-Quran :
“Al-Quran mengandungi ayat-ayat yang tidak lengkap serta tidak boleh difahami (tanpa penggunaan Tafsir). Ungkapan-ungkapan asing serta kata-kata Arab yang tidak lazim dikenali. Juga kata-kata yang tidak mempunyai maksud yang biasa atau yang lazim. Kata-kata sifat dan kata-kata kerja yang telah diubahkan bentuk perkataannya tanpa mengikut tatabahasa dan nahu Bahasa Arab yang standar.
“Banyak juga Kata-kata ganti yang dipakai secara wewenang dan semborono dan dengan jelas mencerobohi tatabahasa dan ragam nahu Bahasa-contohnya kata-kata ganti tanpa apa-apa objeknya. Predikat (penjelas subjek dalam satu-satu ayat) yang seringkali tidak ada pertalian dengan subjeknya di dalam ayat-ayat yang berangkap.
“Penyelewengan bahasa dan penyimpangan-penyimpangan seperti tersebut telah sebabkan ramai pengkaji Quran menyangkal keistimewaannya. Masalah-masalah ini juga telah memaksa para mufassirin dan ulamak muslim mencari-cari penjelasan (diluar Quran) dan juga menjadi sumber pertelingkahan dan perselisihan yang hangat di antara mereka.”
(23 Years – A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, Ali Dashti, ms.48,49)
Lepas itu, Ali Dashti melengkapkan kita dengan contoh-contoh kasus yang spesifik penyelewengan-penyelewengan tersebut dengan kajian Quran dari Surah-surah 74, surah 4, surah 2, surah 20, surah 24 dan surah 53.
Ali Dashti telah membuat kesimpulan yang mengejutkan tentang al-Quran apabila beliau merumus seperti berikut :
“Sebagai rumusan, ada LEBIH DARIPADA SERATUS PENYELEWENGAN DAN PENYIMPANGAN TERDAPAT DI DALAM AL-QURAN. Ini mengambil kira penyimpangan dari segi tatabahasa dan nahu Bahasa Arab yang lazim dan sempurna.
Ini telah memaksakan ahli-ahli tafsir al-Quran bergegas-gegas dan bergumul untuk mencari penjelasan ‘yang munasabah’ untuk membenarkan penyelewengan-penyelewengan itu.”
(23 Years – A Study of the Prophetic Career of Muhammad, 1985,Ali Dashti, ms.50)
Seorang ahli cendekia seperti Ali Dashti, cukup mantap ilmu keislamannya, oleh kerana pelajaran dan pengajian beliau dengan ulamak-ulamak terkenal di pusat-pusat Islam dan madrasah-madrasah di Iraq. Bahasa Arab beliau cukup lancar kefasihannya kerana dia juga telah menulis banyak bahan-bahan ilmiah keislaman dan buku-buku kesasteraan lain dari tahun 1936 sehingga 1974, yakni selama sekurang-kurangnya 38 tahun! Beliau juga telah bersandang jawatan Menteri Luar Negara kerajaannya.
Being found on sites like ‘Answering-islam.org’ does not detract at all from the impact and truthfulness of Ali Dashti’s admissions. – that the quran is error-filled and also fallacious and thus, dubious and doubtful as a source for facts, at best.
So, zaid and other muslim missionaries like yourself, don’t be a hypocrite and throw stones at the Bible and the Gospel of Sayidina Isa Al-Masih, when your own quran is so full of inconsistencies and factual errors and problems that seriously call into question its validity and authenticity! You live in a glass house and your stones have crashed your own islamic and quranic world to pieces! Your quran is the real worthless piece of human editions, nothing else…pity you all! The facts show this up so clearly – except for your blinded eyes-lah…kesian sekali…!
Hamzah.
Hamzah quoted:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
‘ Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their – the people of SHAM and IRAQ (all muslims!)- differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to ‘Uthman, “O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before THEY DIFFER about the Book (Quran) …”
___________________________________________________________
This is an issue of Quran pronounciation by non Arabs, not differences in texts. I’ve also explained how Uthman ra appealed to all Muslims to dispose non-verified copies of Quran. Many Muslims kept their own records of Quran based on what they’ve heard or received from others who have heard from the prophet as those unverified may contain errors. Verified copies of Quran still exist and are preserved till today.
___________________________________________________________
Who is Ali Dashti?
Your claims on Ali Dashti authenticity is crap. You simply twist the term authenticity when dealing with Islam but accepted your Bible as the inspired words of God which never came from Jesus himself, far from being authenticated.
The truth about Ali Dashti, a Marxist-influenced Iranian who cannot be considered as an Islamic scholar. According to the translator’s introduction of his book (from which the christian missionary quoted) , it appears he rejected Islam for “patriotism” and established a newspaper called “Red Dawn”.
He is only representing himself with his own ideas and opinions like Salman Rushdie but these aren’t “authentic views” as you claimed. Christians just love to quote forgeries, chainless narrations, a muslim sect, eccentric commentaries, biased translations, a columnist of the New York Times and comments made by this Marxist-influenced Iranian.
Moreover he appeared to be an activist in Soviet Socialist issues and was invited to Russia to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the revolution. On several occassions, imprisoned due to his radical views and political reasons. You lay your trust on Ali Dashti and his likes, just to support your claims, but ignore his backgrounds to determine the level of his credibility and integrity. This guy is Iranian, yet trying to comment on the language of Quran which wasn’t his mother tongue. He definitely doesn’t deserve any credit to be a Muslim Scholar and never earned any credential of being Arabic linguist.
___________________________________________________________
FYI Hamzah,
Quran is used as the reference or dictionary for Arabic grammar. How could a Dictionary itself fails? By the way the Quran puts the Arabic Grammar rules not vice versa. Technically the Quran rules over Arabic Grammar , and Arabic Grammar does not rule over Quran.
____________________________________________________________
Sources of the rules of Arabic Grammar is from Quran.
The known rules of Arabic grammar were deduced from studying the spoken Arabic language, its poetry, and most of all: the Quran.
The first treatise on Arabic grammar ever, was written down by ibn Ajroom during the khalifate of imaam Ali ibn abi Taalib (radiallaahu `anhu), thus after the Quran’s revelation.
Ali once heard his daughter commit a grammatical error, upon which he ordered Ibn Ajroom to write down the rules of the Arabic language. Imaam `Ali himself “coined” the word “nahoo” (with “h” like in Al Rahmaan) which means grammar: He explained to Ibn Ajroom how a couple of rules could be stated, and told him to follow that example: unhu `alaa haazal nahoo. Ibn Ajroom deducted the rules of grammar from his knowledge of the spoken language, poetry and above all, the Quran. What he wrote was the first collection of the rules of Arabic grammar, and became known as “Al Ajroomiyyah”, and the science was termed ‘ilm al Nahoo.
(This information can be found in the introduction of most versions of “Al Ajroomiyyah”, available from specialized bookstores.)
Before Ibn Ajroom, there were simply no written rules for the Arabic Grammar.
In the centuries after him, other linguists and scholars also analyzed the Arabic language and elaborated further on its rules, all deduced from previous literature, poetry and the Quran.
Please learn proper history before you post anything blindly.
You Christians are desperados.
Best Regards
According to….. Zaid
Still waiting for your Bible Authenticity Proofs.
Hello,
Great explanation Zaid. Your explanation is so neat and direct to the point, unlike Hamzah’s which is mixed up, long and mostly copy paste ( including typical childish jeering ) but only serves as a reflection of his mixed up belief.
He even quoted from Ali Dashti, a persian who has no credibility in Arabic and hailed him as an objective intellectual devout muslim:
BUT, let us listen to another learned AND HONEST muslim scholar, who went to islamic seminary and university in Iraq and knows what he is talking about – unlike so manyu muslims HERE…:-)) Hamzah
Seorang ahli cendekia seperti Ali Dashti, cukup mantap ilmu keislamannya, oleh kerana pelajaran dan pengajian beliau dengan ulamak-ulamak terkenal di pusat-pusat Islam dan madrasah-madrasah di Iraq. Bahasa Arab beliau cukup lancar kefasihannya kerana dia juga telah menulis banyak bahan-bahan ilmiah keislaman dan buku-buku kesasteraan lain dari tahun 1936 sehingga 1974, yakni selama sekurang-kurangnya 38 tahun! Beliau juga telah bersandang jawatan Menteri Luar Negara kerajaannya.
(Ali Dashti, 23 Years) quoted by Hamzah
But, how come a person in his caliber use Zoroastrian company to publish his book? MAZDA IS A PERSIAN ZOROASTRIAN GOD. He is no more than desperados like Hamzah and the likes.
Look below:
: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, ‘M-A-Z-D-A Publishers, Costa Mesa, California, 1994, pages 48,50)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda
Tony
The language of the Holy Qur’an represents the purest Arabic speech for it was uttered by an Arab in a pure Arabic society and challenged by the most eloquent Arabs who mentioned none of its alleged errors. It is well known that the Arabs during lifetime of the Prophet (P) reached the summit of eloquence and artistry of speech; and it is known as well that those Arabs were the most aggressive and motivated opponents to the message of Islam.
So here, they had two important criteria: (a) they were capable of refuting the language of the Qur’an and exposing its errors, and (b) were much motivated to do so. In other words, they combined the ability and the motive to discover any linguistic errors in the Qur’an. However, they did not which means that there were no errors to discover or to expose.
On the other hand, the Prophet (P) kept challenging them with the Qur’an time after time again, abusing their gods and beliefs, attacking their polytheistic traditions, conquering their lands and killing their fathers, brothers and sons in battlefields, and they were able to combat all this by pointing one linguistic error such as “plural instead of singular” or “accusative instead of nominative”, but they did not!
Do you know why?
Because they were eloquent Arabs living in pure Arabic society, they knew that polemical arguments like these would bring them nothing but mockery.
So, what about the list of these alleged errors?
We answer with the fact that Arabs altogether had accepted the Holy Qur’an as most eloquent speech that no human being can match or even object to. Then we ask the Christian polemicists: Are you more knowledgeable about Arabic language and its usage than the ancient Arabs of the Prophet’s lifetime?
of course, not!
Those Arabs knew their language by nature, so they conceived it all. This is in contrast to the modern-day Arabs — let alone non-Arabs — who acquire it by studying and learning. In spite of this, they fail to conceive the entire Arabic language, especially rules and uses which eventually died in time and is no longer used in everyday speech or writing.
So when Arab Christians start to compare the grammar of the Holy Qur’an with the high-school curricular of Arabic grammar, they surely fall into serious fallacies; one of them being their ignorance of the normal historical sequence in the development of any language. Remember: { have you no understanding? }
The second fallacy is their miserable selection of some rules of Arabic grammar, considering them as absolute and rejecting the fact that the Arabic language is very vast and that it involves so many rules that are not included in the high school curriculum of Arabic grammar.
They indeed have no understanding!
Salam Bro Tony,
Guess u r Muslim. A good point you wrote there. Christians missionaries are so desperate and screwed to prove Islam false. However Truth always triumph over falsehood, insya Allah.
Wassalam
To Tony Aryadi
Whenever a person becomes an ex-Muslim, other Muslims will attempt to demolish the reasons given by the ex-Muslim for leaving Islam (e.g. such as the ex-Muslim had poor knowledge of Islam ,,, etc). Your comment ” …Ali Dashti, a persian who has no credibility in Arabic .. ” is not unexpected.
I wish to high-light Dr. Mustafa ( now known as Mark Gabriel) who was previously an Imam in Egypt — From WikiIslam – “Dr Mustafa (Now Mark Gabriel) Former Muslim Imam, Ex-Professor in Al Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt ” or WIKI -”List of former Muslims”.
We cannot say that he has little knowledge of Islam, can we. There is so much Islamic propaganda. I need not say more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tds8–EOEsk
Hi Sonlight,
Hahaha, great entertainment by this “fake” muslim. I’ve watched his video thru’, even his brief recitation of Quran and hadith is not fluent with poor “tajwid”. How possibly can he be an Imam. A good recitation observing the Tajwid rules is basic for all Muslims especially an Imam. How did he graduate from Al-Azhar?
His continuous story telling about Muhammad pbuh and Islam without quoting or reciting any references, hadis or Quran verses shows his ignorance about Islam. He’s plainly memorizing his scripts of lies about Islam and its so obvious. All his false accounts about Muhammad and Islam proved his ignorance, without proofs or supported text.
His false claims:
Had memorized Quran at 12 and did not understand the meaning until he completed his Bachelors Degree?? How could he qualify for Al-Azhar when he didn’t understand arabic and Quran??
Al-Azhar disallow students from posting questions?? Is there any such university? If it ist rue, not just him but the whole campus will follow his footsteps.
Because of his apostasy, he was expelled from Al-Azhar and kdnapped and tortured by secret police?
His Non-muslim stereotyped “out of context” verse “Kill all the jews wherever you find them…” (The context of this verse is for self defense ie, if Muslims were attacked. If the enemies want to settle for peace, then Allah prohibits further war and killings.)
DID THIS GUY REALLY KNOWS QURAN?? Read Surah Al-Baqarah for the full context.
Muhammad was sent to kill all pigs and destroy the cross, Even allowed early Muslims to cosume alcohol before prayer and goes back to cosume alcohol after prayer?
I quote a portion of his fake and stupid story about Muhammad:
“Muhammad tried to lure ppl to Islam by saying “You can drink alcohol. No problem, then you come to prayer. After that you can drink alcohol again.” Later Muhammad add the verse in Quran prohibiting alcohol and the ppl were angry. Muhammad said ” No problem be patient, Allah will reward you with rivers of alcohol in paradise”. This is how Muhammad tricked ppl into Islam.” LOL
Hahaha, Sonlight this guy is quite entertaining. Anymore recommendation?
Peace
Islam is Truth
Dear Sonlight,
There’s no neccesity to quote anyone as an example be it Muslim or Christian converts to prove a religion’s superiority. From time to time, such things happened for each of their personal and individual reasons. Quran says” There’s no compulsion in religion.”
Truth can only be proven by wisdom and valid reasons. God has given each human with sound mind and common sense to differentiate between Truth and Falsehood.
OUr heart is dear to God, but we are veiled from God due to our lustful and worldly desire. God is not what we can imagine or what we can present. God is not human nor any of His Creations. However, the omnipresence of God dwell within our body and soul, every life and each of God’s creations. Truth manifest itself in the entire world, as like the Light from the Sun shines upon each of us. The rays reaches us, being a sign of His Existence. God gives Life to us, as God’s presence becomes part of our breath.
Explain to me then, where can you find God or your Jesus? Islam is the straight path to reach God, Allah the Almighty.
Peace
Islam is Truth.
Dear Christians,
You guys totally have no idea or have any clue about God’s existence.
Allah has said in surah Fussilat verse 53:
“Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes clear to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord witness all things?”
I’ve given you many hints. God is not far, not isolated, not separated by near to His Creations.
Don’t you guys get it?
To Zaid
As you deny the authenticity of the books the Bible, you also refuse to accept the testimony of Mark Gabriel (ex-Imam) and say he is a fake. ( This is no surprise to me as I have seen this reaction from other Muslims before.)
(I give you some credit though, as you say: “zaid, Mar 2nd, 2010 at 11:06 pm
Dear Sonlight,
There’s no neccesity to quote anyone as an example be it Muslim or Christian converts to prove a religion’s superiority. From time to time, such things happened for each of their personal and individual reasons. ..”)
To Tony Aryadi,
Regarding Ali Dashti, you say “But, how come a person in his caliber use Zoroastrian company to publish his book? MAZDA IS A PERSIAN ZOROASTRIAN GOD. He is no more than desperados like Hamzah and the likes.” – Tony Aryadi, Mar 2nd, 2010 at 3:46 pm.
Sonlight says: I am not certain that the publishing company Ali Dasti used was Zoroastrian (You may be right). But do you really expect Islamic publishing companies to be eager to print his writings which are critical of Islam. (You might as well ask Christian companies that print Bibles to print the Islamic propaganda of Ahmad Deedat.) I believe you are in error here. Looks like you are the desperado.
Dear Sonlight,
We will not deny any truth, if such is proven true. To the extend of quoting and believing one’s opinions and views, we should first research in detailed into his backgrounds and personal biography to ascertain his credibility.
You don’t lay your trust on strangers even though he may appear to your likeness, do you? To a certain degree, we should find concrete proofs and evidences that he is what he claimed to be.
If I tell you I am an ex-Professor of Bible Studies, would you believe me? I believed you’ll definitely insist on concrete evidences to ascertain that I’m speaking the truth. Or Christians are so accustomed to lay trust on strangers as long as they are in your favour, since you don’t even mind about the anonymous Gospel writers before entrusting your faith and salvation to them.
Peace
Salam
If I tell you I am an ex-Professor of Bible Studies, would you believe me? I believed you’ll definitely insist on concrete evidences to ascertain that I’m speaking the truth. Or Christians are so accustomed to lay trust on strangers as long as they are in your favour, since you don’t even mind about the anonymous Gospel writers before entrusting your faith and salvation to them. Zaid.
Quran, as the book of guidance, never fails to address humankind their situation and inclination and the reason for that.
53:23 These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but CONJECTURE and what their own souls DESIRE!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord! Holy Quran
53:23 (Malay) “Itu tidak lain hanyalah nama-nama yang kamu dan bapak-bapak kamu mengada-adakannya; Allah tidak menurunkan suatu keterangan pun untuk (menyembah tuhan-tuhan ciptaan mereka). Mereka tidak lain hanyalah mengikuti SANGKAAN-SANGKAAN, dan apa yang diingini oleh HAWA NAFSU mereka, dan sesungguhnya telah datang petunjuk kepada mereka dari Tuhan mereka.” Quran.
How concise Quran is in explaining their situation today.
To Zaid
Today I wish, again to highlight your misunderstanding (or misrepresentation) of facts.
You say:ZAID,Feb 27th, 2010 at 7:43 pm “….. The Christians boast of an excess of 24,000 “ancient manuscripts” of the Bible dating all the way back to the fourth century after Christ (But not back to Christ or the apostles themselves). All Bibles in existence today are compiled from these “ancient manuscripts.
In other words, their gospels only date back to the century when the Trinitarians took over the Christian Church. This was how the Trinity beliefs come into existence, not the real Jesus teachings.
They never seem to realize that all manuscripts from before this period have strangely perished. Or they are simply too embarassed to admit, yet still adamant that they are in the right path.” – Zaid
Sonlight’s reply: From my reading; before the forth century (i.e the year 300 A.D – 399 A.D) the more common writing material was plant material called papyri. Papyri is less long-lasting than animal skin that was used as writing material from the forth century onwards. This explains why we come across statements that there are complete collections of books that form the Bible from the forth century onwards only. (The Bible Books written on papyri before the forth century are less complete and in fragments)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri
Your statement “(Christians) never seem to realize that all manuscripts from before this period (forth century) have strangely perished.” – Zaid – is another fine example of Islamic propaganda.
There are earlier manuscripts of the Bible ( though less complete). And if parts of the earlier manuscripts have “perished”, the reason for their perishing is not strange.
To Zaid
You say:-’So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body…. ‘ zaid,Feb 16th, 2010 at 9:18 am,
My reply: You are twisting the words of the Bible. Jesus said before Abraham was born “I AM”(John 8:58-59).
How does what you say:”So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body..,(Zaid)” tie in with the statement : ” ..before Abraham was(existed)..”(John 8:58-59). Where is the connection? _______________________________________________________
Zaid’s reply : “It is mentioned in the Quran, that God has created our Ruh (Soul or spirit) long before the existence of the entire universe. Our Ruh has testify that God is our Lord, even before any human including ADAM is created or born.
One who already aquire full knowledge of his origin and Inner Self definitely has full awareness that he has existed long before he was born to this world. So, Jesus has spoken the truth, on behalf of all human who are born and created in this world.” – zaid, Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:05 pm -
Sonlight: A very “creative” explanation to try to answer my question -{How does what you say:”So there, when Jesus proclaimed “I AM” , he witnessed God is within his soul and body..,(Zaid)” tie in with the statement : ” ..before Abraham was(existed).”(John 8:58-59). Where is the connection? }
But you will run into problems with that “creative” explanation because not only Jesus said He existed before Abraham; another prophet said something similar. John the Baptist said in (John1:29,30) – ” 29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ (NIV)
John the Baptist is before Jesus in two ways. Firstly, John the Baptist is older than Jesus the man ( read Luke 1). Secondly John is the prophet before Jesus. Yet John the baptist says “he (Jesus) was before me”.
If you were to say that the Ruh of Jesus existed before the beginning of the world, what about the Ruh of John the Baptist?(Perhaps Jesus Ruh was created before John the Baptist Ruh???) Your explanation is nonsensical Islamic propaganda.
Sonlight,
By trying to prove Jesus existence was prior Abraham or John or whosoever, is that a proof that Jesus is God? Did he say he was before any creation? Or did he say he was the creator of Abraham or John? Angels was created long before Adam and Jesus. So are Angels God then? Why didn’t Jesus claim ” before Adam, I AM? ” BTW, the story goes such that Jesus said ” Before Abraham, I AM…”, when the Jews hurled stones at him while Jesus ran and hid. There are other Greek translations which mentioned Jesus says “I HAVE”, NOT “I AM”. So what can be the interpretation here?
There could be a possibility that Jesus had not completed his sentences as he was interrupted by the Jews who hurled stones at him, so Jesus fled and hid. If Jesus is God, why would he ran and hid? Can’t God overcome the Jews assault? Also, who actually was with Jesus who then recorded these occurrences and what was said by Jesus? Again a chainless narration and witnesses by mysterious authors which equal to FALSE.
I always see Christians quoted verses without showing the whole context. Merely quote what they want others to believe as what they believe. eg. I and My Father are one? I am the Alpha and Omega? Before Abraham, I AM (What are the context that lead to these words?) A fact that Christians would like NOT to show.
Peace
Hi Sonlight
You quoted:
A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ (NIV)
Was John actually implying on Jesus Existence? I’ve read through the whole context, the disciples were only looking Jesus up as a a Rabbi “Teacher”. No where was it talking about Jesus Existence prior John.
Peace
To Zaid
Muslims, I perceive, attack Christian beliefs in 2 ways.
Firstly, Muslims say Christians interpret the Bible wrongly. Secondly, Muslims say the Bible no longer holds the true message of Jesus as the message has been changed.
I feel that you should stick to the second way of attack as you will look ridiculous if you use the first. I say this because there is at least one Muslim who admits that the Bible is supportive of Christian beliefs. (i.e. – Syukri, Nov 21st, 2009 at 8:16 pm -”…Now,Can Bible be used as proof? No. Why? Because Bible is biased to Christians just like Quran is biased to Muslims….” – Syukri – on the blog-site ‘ Why I am following Jesus’ .
Since this Muslim says ” Bible is biased to Christians”, you are actually on the losing side if you attack Christian beliefs from this angle.
You have written more nonsense. I will answer one or two to show your lack of understanding.
zaid, Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am –” Why didn’t Jesus claim ” before Adam, I AM? ” – zaid
Sonlight’s reply : Jesus could easily have said -” before Adam, I AM? ” but in the CONTEXT in which the words ‘I AM” appears ( John 8:56-59 ) Jesus and the Jews were mentioning Abraham. So it is more relevant to mention Abraham rather than Adam.
Also you say:” I always see Christians quoted verses without showing the whole context. Merely quote what they want others to believe as what they believe. eg. I and My Father are one? I am the Alpha and Omega? Before Abraham, I AM (What are the context that lead to these words?) A fact that Christians would like NOT to show. – zaid’ Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am.
Actually, it is the Muslims who take words out of context from the Bible and try to make the Bible say what it does not say.
To Zaid
You say: zaid, Mar 1st, 2010 at 10:01 am”……. Please address the issue how your bible can be the words of God, since the writers were anonymous. No references, no last names and no gospels written during Jesus life.” – Zaid.
Sonlight’s comment: I wish to focus on your statement- ” … and no gospels written during Jesus life.” – Zaid.
This shows a difference in understanding of what the Gospel is. The word ‘ gospel’ – ” (from Old English, g?d spell “good news”) is a writing that describes the life of Jesus. …The term “Gospel” refers also to the message itself of the four Gospels or of the whole New Testament. …” – from WIKI.
The Gospel message, as I understand it, is that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of man. –
1 Peter 2:24 “He (Christ) himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.” Many persons (including Christians) say ‘gospel” and mean the books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But the Gospel is actually a message that Jesus died for the sins of man and rose from the dead. (The Gospel message therefore is also found outside of the four books commonly called ” the Four Gospels”.
The rising from the dead(resurrection) of Jesus is at the center of Christianity. If there were no resurrection, there would be no Christianity.
Matthew 16:21 Jesus Predicts His Death
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. – (NIV)
Also John 2:18 -22
18Then the Jews demanded of him, “What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. – NIV
The Gospel message is about the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is why it was written after Jesus had died and risen from the dead. That is why “no gospels written during Jesus life.” as you say.
Peace…. out
Hi Sonlight,
Just pondering if Jesus was sent down as God, then who did the other prophets before him worshipped? Did the other prophets mentioned that God will become his own Son named Jesus and appear to this world, so everyone should worship this God alias His SON? Did Moses, David, Solomon etc.. worship Jesus in their lives?? God who created the gigantic universe is too weak to forgive human sins, that He needs to sacrifice Himself alias His Son for human sins?
So please explain how the Holy Spirit can be fitted into the picture as the 3rd being in the Trinity??? Since God is Father, Jesus is Son, What is the Holy Ghost then??
Thinking how absurd it is, God turned Himself into a Holy Spirit (God) and entered into Mary’s womb to be born as his own Son, whom later predicted his OWN DEATH to show his love for mankind? 9 months in Mary’s womb, what was God doing inside? Administer the world? What did God do during his teens until the age of 30? How ridiculous that God was born as a weak baby, circumcised, grown up like normal human, ate, drank, slept, purging out wastes after ate and drank, received sufferings and tortures by his enemies, ran and hid when hurled by stones, etc…, all these weaknesses are part of God?
For very sure, the Pagans were hard core Idol worshippers. The Triune beliefs already existed way before Jesus birth, as like Hinduism etc.. So its no surprise that God sent his messengers one after another to bring the ppl back to the straight path. But soon after each prophets departure, the original teachings were destroyed or corrupted to suit their pagan beliefs. Like u mentioned, due to scarcity of paper, the teachings were not recorded into writings. So how can you be very sure about its authenticity??
Eventually, Prophet Muhammad pbuh was sent as the last and final prophet. God himself assures that He will protect the Quran till the end of the world. Indeed, no other prophet came after Muhammad and the Quran is still intact and preserved till this very day. Could prophet Muhammad pbuh be very sure about this if it wasn’t from God.
Christians are just lost.
Peace
Hi Sonlight,
So much of our discussion, I guess you have no answer if I ask you where is God! Your Jesus had departed and left you no clue or contact.
I’ve explained many times, that God is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent. You just can’t fit Jesus into these criteria while your faith is based on conjectures.
Read thoroughly below to give you understanding on the 3 Omnis. (From the Islamic book of Hakikat (Knowledge of God))
_________________________________________________________
Phenomenal being is utter and total darkness. It is only the manifestation of the Truth in it that gives it light.
When you see phenomenal being and do not see Him in it, with it, before it or after it, then you are truly in need of light.
You are veiled from the suns of gnosis by the clouds of secondary traces. One way He shows you the existence of His overwhelming power is by veiling you from Him by that which cannot exist alongside Him.
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One who is manifest by everything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One who is made manifest in everything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One who is manifest to everything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He was the One who was Manifest before there was anything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is more manifest than anything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One with whom there is nothing else?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when He is the One who is nearer to you than anything?
How can you imagine that something else veils Him
when if it had not been for Him, there would not have been anything?
A marvel!
See how existence becomes manifest in non-existence!
How the in-time holds firm alongside Him whose attribute is eternal..
God is Near, Not Far, Not Isolated, Not Separated Not Limited by time and space.Need more to find God??
How conscise is Islam to guide man to the path towards God. Subhanallah!
Peace
To Zaid
This is a response to your post: -zaid, Mar 1st, 2010 at 10:56 am
“Why I am convinced Islam is true. Because……….” (Zaid) and you give your reasons.
“[Will they not ponder the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it.] (An-Nisaa’ 4: 82) as quoted by Zaid
My reply: Muslims cannot admit to any inconsistencies in the Quran although these have been pointed out. If you admit that there are inconsistencies, can you still be a Muslim?
On a related point, some Muslims are so dissatisfied with the Hadiths that they reject it all together. The reality is : there are issues with your holy book and traditions. You just choose not to see it.
[We have sent down the Reminder, and We will preserve it.] (Al-Hijr 15: 9
You can delude yourself into thinking that the Quran has remain unchanged since the time of Muhammad. But the fact that there are sects, different schools of thought, different sets of Hadiths (which explain the Quran) for different sects,… means that the original message has been lost to some extent. It is no use saying that the Quran has been preserved (which many doubt) when Muslims cannot all agree on what its says. The difference in opinion indicates that its original message has not been preserved (- Not that it was ever the word of God even if perfectly preserved)
[If you have doubts about what We have sent down to Our servant, produce another surah equal to it, and call your witnesses,... ] (Al-Baqarah 2: 23-24)
My reply: I read that others have produced writing that is superior to the Quran. Muslims cannot admit that, of course.
As for the call for witnesses; there is strangely no witness when Muhammad claimed to have talked to the angel Jibril. (I shall address the issue of witnesses in Christianity later, God-willing)
“The Truth indeed, no other prophets, books or religion had come after Muhammad. ” – Zaid
My reply: There are others who came after Muhammad who claimed to be prophets and had their own holy books (like the Mormons). As a Muslim you cannot accept them (of course). You are making nonsense statements.
“I have lots of proofs to be presented to you about Quran, however it is best if you could read and judge it yourself if you are truly looking for the Truth. Anyway, the choice is yours.” – Zaid
My reply: I am not certain that what you have written earlier is an attempt to prove Islam true. But certainly it is a lot of propaganda.
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
You sounds desperate to disprove Islam and Quran.
You say many Muslims are dissatisfied and rejected the Hadis that explains Quran.
My reply:
For your info, Hadis is not Quran. Hadis is a collection of prophets Muhammad words, acts, consents or prohibitions which not in any way has affected the Quran. There could be weak or false hadis and these were determined at the strictest scrutiny by Islamic Scholars but nothing affects the basic teachings of Islam. Weak or false hadis were collections from unknown or weak sources, chainless narrations or there exist serious doubts over the narrators credibility or integrity. Quran is still in its original text, no change. Hence weak or false Hadis are rejected without rejecting the Quran itself.
You say, some Muslims can’t agree with what Quran says. There are different school of thoughts in Islam.
My reply:
There are indeed difference of ideas and opinions on the way of practices and interpretations on Quran, not disputes over Quranic texts. We have 4 mazhabs who are Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki and Syafi’e but there’s no major contradictions among the 4 on the rules and beliefs in Islam, only some variations in practices. The 4 mazhabs derived their teachings and fatwa based on Quran and are acknowledged world wide by all Muslims and Islamic scholars.
You claim there’s a religion after Islam and also books more superior than Quran.
My Reply:
Is there any major religion and books after Islam? Please quote one to support your claims.
Sonlight, what you have pointed did not in any way prove that Quran has lost its authenticity. Some Muslim Scholars may translate it differently but all are still within the boundary of its context, meanings and teachings. You questioned on Muhammads encounter with Arch Angel Gabriel. There are narrations which Arch angel Gabriel appeared in the presence of Muhammad’s companions. However you may not believe me if I present them to you.
At the least, we all agree that Quran came from Muhammad. You should ponder over your bible instead, which obviously does not come from Jesus himself.
Also, I have presented a brief explanation about God’s Existence in Islamic context. Please explain about your Jesus whereabouts and his presence in this world. Has your God loses his Omnipresence, since he is now absent from the world? You can call it Islamic propaganda and you have to provide a better explanation to support your beliefs.
Guess you need to present something more concrete to disprove Quran. You are definitely in headless direction since you don’t know where to find Jesus now.
Peace
God is near, not far, isolated nor separated. I AM… with my own Creations.
Dear Bros & Sis,
Did Jesus truly and had willingly sacrificed himself for human sins?
Jesus died an accursed death?
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree”.
(Galatians 3:13)
________________________________________________________________________________
Jesus died unwillingly and lamented to God?
According to John (19:14) it was about the sixth hour of the day (Friday) that Pilate spoke last to the Jews vis-a-vis Jesus crucifixion and handed him over to them.
“And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, LAMA SABACHTHANI, My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Mark 15:33, 34).
________________________________________________________________________________
Criminals were left to die a slow death on the cross, but not for Jesus??
Interestingly, criminals who were crucified were left to die on the cross. Such usually took more than just few hours or probably days that the criminals will slowly die of thirst, hunger, dehydration and injuries. This was how the Romans tortured their prisoners and criminals.
But….. Jesus died only after about 3 hours? What were the possible reasons?
“Then came the soldiers and break the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they break not his legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water”.
(John 19: 3-234)
A dead body will not purge waters or blood when pierced. Strangely this happened to Jesus dead body… ?? Did Jesus really have died?
________________________________________________________________________________
Three writers of the Gospels state that there was darkness over all the land from the sixth to the ninth hour and that there was an earthquake and the rocks were rent and the veil of the temple was rent in twain. It is a matter of common experience at the time of a severe dust-storm accompanied by an earthquake, people generally hasten to go home and they do not enjoy the luxury of a bloody sight-seeing.
Now imagine for a moment, who could stand as an eye-witness to tell the story that Jesus actually died on the cross. The Jews, if, at all, there were any on the spot, must have run away at the sight of the rising storm and the shaking of the earth must have frightened them to turn on their heels and hasten to their homes. As to the disciples they had already fled from the scene of the crucifixion.
“Peter began to curse and to swear saying, l know not this man (Jesus) of whom you speak”(Mark 14:50).
“And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled” (Mark 14:71).
To be brief, there was no one present on the scene who could definitely and certainly say that he saw Jesus ‘giving up the ghost’. This is all mere conjecture and imagination. Or shall I say is just a Cruci”Fiction”.
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Zaid
This is in reply to your post:- Zaid, Mar 9th, 2010 at 9:37 pm -
You accuse Christians of reading words of the Bible out of context (zaid, Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am).
Here you take parts of the Bible story and try to make it say what you want.
But your version of events causes many questions. e.g.
Do you believe there was a darkness that covered the earth and an earthquake at the supposed death of Jesus ((Mark 15:33, 34). I ask this because you are quoting the Bible (which suggest that some things recorded in the Bible you accept as true; but Muslims pick and choose only parts of the Bible as accurate ??? – biased selection.)
If Jesus did not die, then there is a clear contradiction with very many statements that is related to His death and resurrection. (Matthew 16:21 )(John 2:18 -22) (1 Peter 2:24 )(Acts 5:30) (Luke 22:19,20)….etc. (I am sure you can produce more ‘creative’ explanations to account for that.)
Did Jesus mislead everyone into thinking that he had died on the cross. ( He certainly said he would die and rise again).
If the disciples were mistaken, why did Jesus not correct this mistake?
Most of the disciples were killed believing that Jesus died and rose from the dead.(e.g (Acts 5:30) Did they die for a lie?
Just a sample of the questions that arises when Muslims try to deny the death and resurrection of Jesus. (Islamic theory of the mentioned events is full of holes.)
Something for all to consider.
Peace……. out
Dear Bros & Sis,
The 12 disciple persecutions do not come with any reliable historical or traditional support. Are you very sure that they died for defending their faith for Jesus as their saviour and God? Do anyone know what their true faith was?
To my comprehension, all genuine Jesus followers were persecuted with not a single spared. Your dearest Paul Tarsus was a bounty hunter, before he claimed he had a vision on Jesus and “converted to christianity”. Your christianity beliefs today originated from Paul not Jesus or any of Jesus disciples.
I’m wondering, if Hitler after his persecutions of the Jews, suddenly claimed he had a vision and start to write books of religion for the Jews, would any Jew follow him?
I don’t understand how Christians could lay their trust on Paul’s writings after what this evil guy had done to persecute all Jesus true followers. For sure ALL jesus genuine follwers had been totally wiped off from this earth, before Paul started his new religion which is called “Christianity” today.
It is quite obvious that not at any time did Paul and the Romans accepted what Jesus had preached. So Paul deliberately corrupted Jesus teachings to suit his Pagan beliefs to make it appealing to the Romans who were the Sun God worshippers. That was why Constantine changed the Jews Sabbath Day from Saturday to SUN day which complies to his former worship of the SUN GOD. In actual fact, the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands.
Don’t you ever wonder how come nothing had been written about Jesus and his teachings during his life? It is obvious Paul and the Romans had deliberately massacred and destroyed ALL Jesus followers & teachings. Paul then started his False Trinity beliefs claiming he had “reverted” to Jesus after getting a “false” vision. Who could confirmed what Paul had claim was true?
Peace
Islam is pure and the Truth.
Dear Bros & Sis,
Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me…” (Matthew 26:39). Why was Jesus reluctant to face death? Ain’t Jesus God Almighty who ruled the entire creations? Who was he praying to? Himself?
Why is God praying to God? Isn’t it unusual. While Christians often choose the words to claim Jesus God, they ignore the many signs of weakneses in Jesus, the praying of Jesus to the God AlMighty which definitely is someone Greater than Jesus.
Jesus mentioned my Father is Greater than I. So, can this verse be interpreted that Jesus is His Father ie God? Isn’t it clearly shows there’s a distinction between these 2 beings?
Peace
To Zaid
You said: ” That was why Constantine changed the Jews Sabbath Day from Saturday to SUN day which complies to his former worship of the SUN GOD. In actual fact, the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands……..It is obvious Paul and the Romans had deliberately massacred and destroyed ALL Jesus followers & teachings. Paul then started his False Trinity beliefs claiming he had “reverted” to Jesus after getting a “false” vision. …” -zaid, Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:46 am.
When Muslims attack Christian beliefs, Muslim explanations is full of holes.
You say : “…Constantine changed the Jews Sabbath Day from Saturday to SUN day which complies to his former worship of the SUN GOD…” – Zaid.
Sonlights reply: From my reading, Christians are required to set aside one day a week to worship God. (What day it is is less important.) However the practice to worship God on Sunday eventually gained ground. One reason could be because Sunday is the day Lord Jesus rose from the dead. Also in Acts 20:7 (New International Version)- “7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread……”. we see the followers of Jesus “break bread” i.e. gather as Christians do on Sunday. (FYI – ” the first day of the week ” is Sunday.) This happened before Constantine was born and is mentioned in the Bible.
You say :”..It is obvious Paul and the Romans had deliberately massacred and destroyed ALL Jesus followers & teachings. Paul then started his False Trinity beliefs claiming he had “reverted” to Jesus after getting a “false” vision. …” -zaid, Mar 11th, 2010
Sonlights reply: You have got the sequence of events as recorded in the Bible wrong.
Paul had his vision first. Later he went to see Saint Peter. Paul also went to see James, a leader in the early church (Galatians 1:19). James (1 Corinthians 15:3-8) was one of those to whom Jesus appeared after Jesus rose from the dead.
Saint Peter says of Paul’s writing:2 Peter 3:15,16“15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” – NIV
Saint Peter implies that what Paul is writing is God’s word (Scriptures). Paul has Peter’s stamp of approval.
You are wrong. Paul had not “massacred and destroyed ALL Jesus followers & teachings.”
Either you do not know your Bible history or you are trying to distort it to make it fit your biased views.
Lastly you say:”In actual fact, the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands….”- zaid.
So you are saying that Almighty God’s message through Jesus (who was so special he was born of a virgin, could raise the dead and do other miracles and is considered as one of the greatest prophets in Islam) was destroyed by the time of Paul (by Paul with the help of the Romans) leaving the world in darkness as to the true message of God for 500 years until Muhammad.
This sounds to me like an insult to the strength of the Almighty.
Jesus as a Reincarnation of Mithra the Pagan God?? Interesting Article on the Roots of Christianity.
_______________________________________________________________________________
The Vatican was built upon the grounds previously devoted to the worship of Mithra (600 B.C.). The Orthodox Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version. Virtually all of the elements of Orthodox Christian rituals, from miter, wafer, water baptism, alter, and doxology, were adopted from the Mithra and earlier pagan mystery religions. The religion of Mithra preceded Christianity by roughly six hundred years. Mithraic worship at one time covered a large portion of the ancient world. It flourished as late as the second century. The Messianic idea originated in ancient Persia and this is where the Jewish and Christian concepts of a Savior came from. Mithra, as the sun god of ancient Persia, had the following karmic similarities with Jesus:
Identical Life Experiences
(1) Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: “Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven’s own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator” (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).
(2) He was considered a great traveling teacher and masters. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.
(3) Mithra was called “the good shepherd, “the way, the truth and the light, redeemer, savior, Messiah.” He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.
(4) The International Encyclopedia states: “Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world … The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part.”
(5) Chambers Encyclopedia says: “The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed — against all evidence — as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries — symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) — were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts.”
(6) Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: “The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians’, purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord’s supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December….
They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the Earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe” (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).
(7) Reverend Charles Biggs stated: “The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).
(8) In the catacombs at Rome was preserved a relic of the old Mithraic worship. It was a picture of the infant Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, while on their knees before him were Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts.
(9) He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
(10) McClintock and Strong wrote: “In modern times Christian writers have been induced to look favorably upon the assertion that some of our ecclesiastical usages (e.g., the institution of the Christmas festival) originated in the cultus of Mithraism. Some writers who refuse to accept the Christian religion as of supernatural origin, have even gone so far as to institute a close comparison with the founder of Christianity; and Dupuis and others, going even beyond this, have not hesitated to pronounce the Gospel simply a branch of Mithraism” (Art. “Mithra”).
(11) Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. His sacred day was Sunday, “the Lord’s Day.” The Mithra religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper.”
(12) The Christian Father Manes, founder of the heretical sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: “Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras … His residence is in the sun” (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5).
“I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths.” – Mithraic saying
“I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.” – Jesus, (Rev. 22:16)
Peace
Dear Sonlight,
You’ve got the point there, the ppl were in total darkness that God has willed to send another messenger, Muhammad pbuh to enlighten the world.
Sonlight says:
This sounds to me like an insult to the strength of the Almighty.
God Almighty has no requirement for the entire creations to submit to Him to make Himself Almighty. However God has created the entire world with a purpose. God is here with His Creations, never a moment is God separated or absent from this entire world.
Your belief in Jesus being a Man God is the biggest insult to God, such blindly and ignorantly inferring God to be equal to His own creation (Jesus) whom possessed sheer weaknesses and imperfections.
How can Jesus = God who is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent? Can you quote any example to prove that Jesus is around the entire creations? How can Jesus be 100% man and 100% God? This is utterly nonsense and beyond any logic.
God is the Truth and Light in His entire creations.
See how existence (Essence of God) becomes manifest in non-existence!
How the in-time (phenomenal being) holds firm alongside Him whose attribute is eternal..
I beckon you to learn the Truth from Islam, the ULTIMATE TRUTH.
Peace
To Zaid,
You say ;”In actual fact, the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands……..” -zaid, Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:46 am.
You contradict not only the Bible but the Quran also. I got this point from Answering Islam ;
Quran 21:7 -”Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men … If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7).
(Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
and other verses.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Answer/corrupt.html
The point, as I understand it, is that the authentic Gospel (Injil) and Torah (Taurat) were present
during the time of Muhammad. That is why, according to the Quran, Allah can say :… ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE.” (Sura 21:7). Who are those who possess the message DURING THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD that Muhammad can ask?
The MESSAGE was still there at the time of Muhammad.
So your statement :”the true teachings of Jesus, whom only his genuine followers had known were utterly destroyed and had totally perished in Paul’s and the Romans hands……..” -zaid, Mar 11th, 2010 at 11:46 am – contradicts the Quran.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/trustworthy1.htm
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
Did I ever deny that there were Torah, Injeel and Zabur vefore Quran? Yes, from time to time Allah sent his messengers, Moses, David, Isa etc… to lead ppl to the Truth & Light. However the Jews always deny the messengers and you’ll know from the history in the bible itself that each of them was pursued, assaulted, insulted and some murdered by them. Jesus too was not spared. However Allah had rescued Jesus from any harm; wasn’t crucified or ressurected.
You quoted yourself, this was what the Jews always do:
(Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
They refused to accept the Truth, corrupted the books and went back to their Idol worshipping. The Torah, Zabur and Injeel all had been distorted, though some words of God may had remained. The true teachings of montheism had totally been distorted.
Why I said Injeel is distorted? Look at the true words of God in the bible:
Thou shalt worship the lord,thy God; And him only shalt thou serve” Mathew 4:10
Did Jesus mentioned here to worship him(Jesus)? No it doesn’t. Jesus command to worship God. If Jesus is God, he should have pointed this verse to himself.
Peace
See how existence (Essence of God) becomes manifest in non-existence!
How the in-time (phenomenal being) holds firm alongside Him whose attribute is eternal..
Bible is distorted!
The Old Testament foretold of the coming of prophet Muhammad. However Christians denied this and distort the verses to make it means something else.
Deuteronomy 18:18 “I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”
The prophet will be like Moses. Is Jesus like Moses? NO, Jesus totally differs from Moses in many. (Taking into account Christians believes Jesus is God, so Jesus can’t be that prophet which is like Moses. So Muhammad fits the criteria. Also Muhammad is like Moses in many ways.)
It is mentioned, a prophet among their brethren which simply states he is a NON Jew.(Jews are direct descendant of Isaac, so the brethren refers to descendants of the other brother of Isaac, who is Ishmael. Muhammad is the descendant of Ishmael).
However the Jews distorted the scriptures to make this verse like pointing to Jesus, as they can’t accept a Prophet being a Non Jew.
Muhammad was an illiterate, so Muhammad only speak in God’s command as according to what Arch Angel Gabriel revealed to him (Muhammad pbuh).
Quran was revealed to supersede the previous distorted books including Injeel.
Dear Bros & Sis
JESUS AN UN-WILLING VICTIM
If this was God’s plan for a vicarious atonement to redeem mankind, then obviously He had chosen a wrong substitute. This candidate was most reluctant to die. Arming! Wailingi Sweating! Crying! Complaining!
“And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, LAMA SABACHTHANI, My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Mark 15:33, 34).
DID THE DISCIPLES DIE FOR A LIE?
“And they forsook him (Jesus) and fled” (Mark 14:71).
So much of Christians trying to prove the disciples “matyrdom” in defending their faith; even when Jesus was alive and crucified, they forsook him and fled. Why didn’t the disciples stayed and say ” Master we are much willing to die for you!” if they have strong faith that Jesus is God and their Saviour??
An obvious lie will eventually exposed itself.
Peace
To Zaid
I pointed out:(Sura 2:89).”And when there comes to them (the Jews) a Book from Allah, CONFIRMING WHAT IS WITH THEM (the Taurat) … they refused to believe in it.” (Sura 2:89).
(Sonlight,Mar 13th, 2010 at 1:18 am)
The words “confirming what IS with them (the Taurat)” indicates the Taurat was accurate at the time of Muhammad. If it were not accurate, the Quran would not refer to it as the Taurat.
Therein lies a problem for Muslims.
If the Taurat and Injil were accurate at the time of Muhammad, WHEN did the Bible message change according to Islam (and HOW)? BIG MYSTERY!!!
Your (and other Muslims) explanation that Paul changed the message of Jesus is full of holes and contradicts the Quran.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/trustworthy1.htm
The writer in the link above says it better.
I do not believe you can give a reasonable response to him. I wish not to say more on this topic because I cannot say it any better than the writer.
peace… out
Hi Sonlight,
The followers of Jesus who knew the original teachings of Jesus, awaited the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. They knew the signs given onto the prophet as Moses had foretold in Deutronomy. When they witnessed these signs in Prophet Muhammad, some acknowledged, embraced Islam and followed Muhammad’s teachings. While majority of the true followers of Moses and Jesus who practiced the Torah and Injeel still alive to witness the birth of Muhammad pbuh, vast majority of them had been persecuted and exhiled by the Romans. The original message of Moses and Jesus had already went through vast corruptions and modifications, lived by the mainstream Christians at that time who had been totally brainwashed by Paul, supported by the Roman Constantine for his own political gains.
These true followers knew very well of Jesus message, that a “Comforter” will come after Jesus left, This “Comforter” is not a Spirit as Christians perceived, or even Paul or whosoever. The “Comforter” which Christians denied, is Muhammad pbuh, as your ancient scriptures did translate to that of his name “The Praised One”. This directly referred to Muhammad pbuh being called AL-Amin. The jews knew very well that Muhammad is the Last Messenger as described in their books, but they denied him as Muhammad is a Non Jew.
While you tried to prove the “Truth” of Trinity, you can’t deny that there were Christians sections who are Unitarian and believed Jesus is a lesser being than God. Imagine if Arianism was not exhiled and persecuted by the Trinitarians backed by the Romans, your Christian history may had differ. You can’t deny that during the Nicaea Creed, there were bloodshed and persecutions among Christians themselves. Constantine even sought to kill his own son in the event. Is this a religion of PEACE?
So, Christians themselves had different beliefs about Jesus divinity and his status in the Trinity concept. However so, Unitarian beliefs coincide with Islam that Jesus is a prophet not God.
So there, if Jesus is God, then who is the Prophet that Moses foretold? Then if Jesus is that Prophet, how can Jesus be God? Christians are lost!
Peace
Islam is Truth
Hi Sonlight,
The article you referred is talking about the authenticity of the Bible and Quran. Most of his statements are based on conjectures and his shallow knowledge on Islam. However I’m still wondering, for much of his denial about Quran authenticity, how can he, without questions and further probing believes the bible today is 100% God’s words.
As I’ve mentioned, no one knows who wrote the Gospels. Why wasn’t Jesus teachings consistently passed down from Jesus to his disciples and then to the ppl from time to time. Why was there a lapse between the first written Gospel from the time of Jesus? To say that before Paul, nobody actually knew, acknowledged or worshipped Jesus as God?
Imagine, if you produce an evidence in court without any authentication, autograph or signature it will be thrown out within 2 minutes and considered as void or false. There goes your bible!
Peace
According to….. Zaid
To Zaid
When a Muslim leaves Islam, you (in typical style) say that the reasons given are “based on conjectures and his shallow knowledge on Islam. ” – zaid, Mar 13th, 2010 at 10:16 pm – even if the Muslim was an Imam (or religious teacher) as I pointed out in earlier post.
You cannot accept that ex-Muslims who are knowledgeable about Islam leave Islam. The truth hurts. I do not see any purpose to continue to dwell on this point with you.
I shall answer your Islamic propaganda about Muhammad being the prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18 later when I am more free, God – willing.
Peace out.
To Zaid,
Just to give another example of your faulty thinking:-
You say:”While you tried to prove the “Truth” of Trinity, you can’t deny that there were Christians sections who are Unitarian and believed Jesus is a lesser being than God. ” -zaid, Mar 13th, 2010 at 9:39 pm.
Here, you are not really saying anything of value. Just as the are groups considered heretics in Christianity, there are groups considered heretics in Islam. ( Is not there a group within Islam that says there is another message that came after Muhammad {somewhere in Pakistan}; a sect of Ahmmadiyah , I think. You should be more familiar than me, I believe. I remember reading about it)
To Zaid
Today I wish to begin to address the point you mentioned about Muhammad and Moses.
You say:”zaid,Mar 13th, 2010 at 10:20 am -”Bible is distorted!
The Old Testament foretold of the coming of prophet Muhammad. However Christians denied this and distort the verses to make it means something else.
Deuteronomy 18:18 “I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” – Zaid.
Here, you (Zaid) are doing what you accuse Christians of doing. { You say: zaid,Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am “………I always see Christians quoted verses without showing the whole context. Merely quote what they want others to believe as what they believe. eg. …… Before Abraham, I AM (What are the context that lead to these words?) A fact that Christians would like NOT to show.” – Zaid}
Deuteronomy 18:18 is part of a passage.
Beginning from Deuteronomy 17:14 til Deuteronomy 18:22 we see Moses giving instructions regarding kings of Israel, priests, and prophets.
About the KING, -Deuteronomy 17:15 “15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers……” (NIV)
About PRIEST: – Deuteronomy 18:2 They(priest) shall have no inheritance(land) among their brothers; the LORD is their inheritance, as he promised them. (NIV)
About PROPHET: -Deuteronomy 18:15“15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me(Moses) from among your own brothers….” (NIV)
I list some relevent verses below:
Deuteronomy 18:15
Deuteronomy 18:16
Deuteronomy 18:17
Deuteronomy 18:18
If we read the words “among your own brothers..” in Deuteronomy 17:15 and “among their brothers (Deuteronomy 18:2 ) , ” from among your own brothers” in Deuteronomy 18:15 ” from among their brothers” in Deuteronomy 18:18 the words must mean the same thing, i.e, from among the Israelites.
Does one expect to see a king over Israel who is not from Israel? (Deuteronomy 17:15)
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is talking about a line of prophets and not just one prophet. (Moses would eventually die).
Jesus (from Israel) is along this line. In Acts 3:17-23 we read that Jesus is the prophet like Moses. Deuteronomy 18:18 therefore is also a prophecy about Jesus.
Zaid, you (and Islam), I believe, is wrong.
Hi Sonlight,
It said among their brethren (Not ” Among your own brothers” as you translated).
Brethren means the OTHER BROTHER FROM THE SAME PARENT. For this case, it shouldn’t be descendants of Isaac, but from his other brother (Ishmael). So, it doesn’t mean Jewish brother as you deceitfully translated.
This was God’s reply to Abraham’s prayer that ALL his (Abraham) descendants to be made true servants of God. So both Isaac and Ishmael will have prophets as their descendants.
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You quote:
Does one expect to see a king over Israel who is not from Israel? (Deuteronomy 17:15)
Deuteronomy 18:15-18 is talking about a line of prophets and not just one prophet. (Moses would eventually die).
My reply:
Did Jesus become the King of Israel? NO, he departed even before reaching out to the 12 tribes of Israel.
In contrast, Muhammad leads a nation like Moses, which were Islamic Nations throughout the reign of Muhammad and his Khalifates.
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Jesus (from Israel) is along this line. In Acts 3:17-23 we read that Jesus is the prophet like Moses. Deuteronomy 18:18 therefore is also a prophecy about Jesus.
In what way was Jesus like Moses apart from being a Jew?
Moses married, lead the Israelites as a nation, died, pursued by his enemies in spreading the words of God. ALL SIMILAR TO MUHAMMAD.
In contrast, Jesus was accepted by his followers, captured, crucified & resurrected by his enemies(based on your beliefs), didn’t married, didn’t lead a nation in his life, not a prophet but GOD (based on your beliefs).
So how were Moses and Jesus similar?
See how the unauthenticated authors of the Bible twist their words to fill their lustful desires.
Peace
By the way,
Talking about Ahmadiyah. Please read more about their history before you accused Muslim of wrongfully treated them the same way as your trinitarians who persecuted and expelled the Unitarians.
The founder of Ahmadiyyah was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad started somewhere in 1889. He claimed himself as the Last Prophet bearing the name Ahmad, denying Muhammad pbuh. He also claimed he was the Mahdi and Messiah(Jesus). His beliefs that Jesus died a natural death, not ascended to heaven by God is against Muslim beliefs. He also claimed that he was Jesus reborn, besides being the last prophet. He debated with the Christians too regarding his claim to be Jesus reborn.
He used the same Quran that Muslims have and mistraslated the verses and Islamic Syahadah, in his quest to prove that he was the last prophet Muhammad, Mahdi and Messiah (Jesus).
His teachings did not spread beyond his region, as he was accused of working for the British who occupied his nation. He used religion to misguide the ppl to submit to the British, while one of his rules stated in his Ahmadiyyah preaching was that going against the British troops was sinful.
Would you quote this guy as an example to defend your faith?
He’s not just a BLASPHEMY to ISLAM BUT CHRISTIANITY AS WELL.
So the comparisons you’ve posted are irrelevant. You are just being too impulsive!
Peace
CHRISTIANS MISUSED THE WORD GOD.
The word translated as “God” IN Hebrew word is “El” which in addition to it’s use to refer to God Almighty in the Bible is also used to refer to mighty men, to demons, to angels, and to idols. It was a common practice in the Bible to use the word “god” to convey an air of authority or power. Some of the examples presented were:
“I have said, Ye (the Jews) are gods; and all of you are children of the most High”
Psalms 82:6
and “And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh”
Exodus 7:1
as well as “the god of this world (the Devil) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.”
So Jesus is NOT ALMighty GOD as Christians wrongfully translated but a god like Moses and even the devil.
In John 20:17 we read:
“Jesus saith unto her, …I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
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BIBLE INDICATES THHAT GOD IS NOT HIS CREATIONS
God is not a MAN, that he should lie; neither the SON of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”,
Numbers 23:19
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SO GOD PRAY? PRAY TO WHO? ANOTHER GOD??
Mark 14:32 “and he (Jesus) saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.”
Luke 3:21: “Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened.”
Luke 6:12: “And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.”
Luke 22:44 “And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.”
Matthew 26:39: “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”
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Jesus should have descended during Adam time to avoid the troubles we faced today. Well, If truly Jesus is GOD.
If Jesus had only arrived as soon as Adam committed his sin and not thousands of generations later then maybe all of these generations could have received true salvation (like this generation).
Did Abraham or any of the other prophets ever preach the “crucifixion”? Did they preach the “Trinity”? I ask for clear and decisive words and not personal forced interpretations of their words or “hidden meanings” for their words. Have any of them ever worshipped a Trinity?
What right did they have to teach them all of these commandments and the observance of the Sabbath and other hardships if all of their works were worthless and belief in Jesus’ sacrifice which would not occur till many thousands of years after their death was the only way to salvation, or as Paul put it :
“a man is not justified by the works of the law … for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified..”
How confused Christians are!!
Peace
Islam is Truth
To Zaid,
You say:” zaid,Mar 15th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Hi Sonlight,
It said among their brethren (Not ” Among your own brothers” as you translated).” – Zaid.
For everyone’s info -
Deuteronomy 18:18“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” – King James Version
Sonlight’s reply – Firstly I did not do the translation (as you said). I was quoting the NIV Bible. You can also check the ESV Bible, or the King James Version (which I believe you are using).
“Brethren means the OTHER BROTHER FROM THE SAME PARENT. For this case, it shouldn’t be descendants of Isaac, but from his other brother (Ishmael). So, it doesn’t mean Jewish brother as you deceitfully translated.” – Zaid
Sonlight says: -Here you are trying to force the Bible to say something it does not say. Your statement produces a problem. Your statement “among their brethren” is also found in Deuteronomy 17:15“….. one from among thy BRETHREN shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.”- King James Version. (CAPITALS are mine)
So, even in the KJV Bible, God has passed down instructions “among thy BRETHREN shalt thou set king over thee” (i.e. a king of Israel must be from the BRETHREN {brother}- people of Israel. This is in line with our common sense.) Even if everyone accepts that Arabs are cousins of the Jew; as far as I know, until the time of Jesus, the Jews did not have a king which they themselves chose who was not from Israel.
Also you say: “Brethren means the OTHER BROTHER FROM THE SAME PARENT”. If I were to use your definition; Deuteronomy 17:15 becomes ‘…. one from among thy( OTHER BROTHER FROM THE SAME PARENT) shalt thou set king over thee’. This means that an Arab is be King of Israel always???. (An example of Islamic logic!)
“Brethren” here refers to the men of Israel. They are brothers because Israel (the man) was their common father/ ancestor. (The Arabs do not have Israel as a common father/ancestor and so are not brothers of Israelites. Arabs and Jews are cousins because they are commonly descended from Abraham.)
You are in error.