Helpful and eye-opening Site, previously recommended…!
47 Comments Published by Hamzah ABD. May 29th, 2009 in PagesFolks and Sdr2 Melayu saya. Not too long ago, brothe Emmnuel also ada recommend www.answering-islam.org as a good and reliable resource to check out facts re:Islam & Christianity.
Thats a good one, I mean site. In addition, there are also very good links in the Malay language (and Indonesian too) that I would like to ‘syorkan’ kepada anda semua, below.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bahasa/Isa/index.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bahasa/Risalah/index.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bahasa/Quran/index.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bahasa/AlKitab/index.html
and the latest info at:
http://www.answering-islam.org/bahasa/terkini.html
Some of the articles in these BM links (and also the English ones) pun sudah menjawab antagonists like Syukri’s attacks on basic teachings of the Holy Injil / Gospel. They have all been refuted already in toto.
Trust you will enjoy those links, and be blest by Roh Allah maha Esa yang Kudus itu!
Bro.Hamzah.
Popularity: 15% [?]
Hi there brother Hamzah,
I find it disturbing to see that you are trying to spread the evangelical lies to our community regarding the teaching of Islam and the Muslim beliefs. It is interesting to see that you are trying hard to debunk something which can not be debunked in any way you put it. To the weak in Iman, these propagandas can easily detract them from the truth. So, as much as you are trying to “save” our community from the eternal hell fire, well, so do I here.
I will not spend time in here talking about the discrepancies that can be found in the Bible. That will be a waste of time for I believe you guys are just too tired as I am with this issue. But what I would like to bring up here are some questions that seriously need answers that can put thoughts deeply into someone’s mind. Lets face it here, all these efforts to proof that the Bible being an infallible word of God will be futile if the source of the teaching of Christianity itself can be presented as highly questionable.
I am a Muslim. I believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) and the same as all the other messengers before him. I believe in his teachings (not Paul’s). I believe in the Injil (By saying this, I don’t mean the Bible but the original true form of the Gospel according to Jesus). And I believe that Jesus is the messiah and that he will one day return to earth. With an open mind and an open heart, I personally believe too that there is some true words from God in the Bible but that does not necessarily mean I believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God. I sincerely do hope you will open up your mind and free yourself from any prejudice of any kind too and see to the obvious logical signs that are definitely pointing to the truth.
This is the baffling part that I wish to know from you Brother Hamzah and Brother Emmanuel too if you happened to read this. Here goes: How did you arrive to the conclusion that Christianity is the religion that we can earn our salvation from? Have you ever questioned yourself about the origin of this religion? Please don’t tell me that it originates from Jesus or God. I don’t buy that idea ever since I found out about Paul’s incident while on a journey to Damascus from Jerusalem, his epistles and the person whom he real was. Have you ever pondered about what happened in Nicea 325 a.d? Have you ever questioned yourself about who were those people in that event and what divine authority have they got to come down to a conclusion which results to the existence of one of the most important tenets in the religion that you have embraced today? Don’t forget Brother Hamzah, the Unitarians where there too to present their case. Have you ever thought about the origin and consequences of the Doctrine of Atonement? And how about the issue of Sola Fide which still sees itself as the point of dispute between the RCs and the Protestants concerning salvation, have you thought about that? And last but not least, the most important question of all that I wish to impose on you and any ex-Muslims in here, what actually made you believe in Paul whose authenticity is highly questionable?
I hope you don’t see my asking these questions as an attack to your beliefs. I am merely asking these questions so that we all can pause for a moment and think logically with our minds and not with our emotions. I just want to know what is it that you see differently from what I see. Salvation is a serious matter when it comes to eternal life. And all these questions carry valid reasons to explain to everyone so that we can satisfy our logical minds before making that crucial decision in our lives.
Being in a religion is a personal thing. Yes I believe that. But if you believe that our community needs to be saved, please present to them truthfully with the above questions fully answered and not just by giving those beautiful verses from the Bible and then conveniently forget to mention about all these facts to them.
Looking forward to your reply Brother Hamzah and may Allah have mercy on you
Your Brethren in kind,
Muhammad
Hi Bro Hamzah,
I’m here to support you and your brave stand in faith, to declare that Jesus is our Lord, God & Saviour.
It is absolutely easy to label other faiths and religions as lies and having factual discrepancies. I believe we can easily say similar things about Islam in the vein of our brother Muhammad over here. But as i’ve mentioned before, that would not glorify God.
We, you & I brother Hamzah, rise above the verbal storms. The content of Brother Muhammad’s eloquent writing is nothing new to us. So we choose to stand in faith and say “Shalom!” to the storm.
Peace to you Brother Muhammad. I too pray that you will be blessed more than abundantly in this life and the hereafter.
God bless! : )
Shalom,
Emmanuel
Hi there Muhammad,
Shalom in the name of the One and Only Yeshua ha-mashiach, the Lord of the Universe and only Redeemer of Mankind.
Nice of you to respond with your polemics-filled & typically venomous anti-Christian reply, Muhammad.
Simply because your very first sentence clearly betrays your closed mind, wrapped in your dubious views and presumptions & ‘forgone conclusion’ that evangelical Christianity is ‘a lie’. And so, furthermore the undebunkable (muslim beliefs) is supposedly beyond debunking as you desperately put it.
With such wild, entrenched conclusions already assumed, its absolutely UNSurprising that you go on to make all sorts of wild accusations and rants against the fundamentals of Christianity, Jesus Christ, the Bible and the Gospel, which obviously, you have never really bothered to examine with REAL CARE and objective consideration. Calling us Christians here to open our minds, when yours is already closed so tightly shut is positively and shamefully hypocritical, indeed!
Also, your wild claims about the so-called ‘discrepencies in the Bible’, are again tired and worn-out polemics that missionary muslims like yourself have nothing better to do than to take pot-shots against the Bible, without even examining REAL scholarly research on the Old and the New Testaments. The evidence of the overwhelming MAJORITY OF reputable biblical scholars, historians, archaelogists and especially those scholars engaged in the objective study of ‘Biblical criticism’ for instance, points totally in the very opposite direction from your quranic propoganda and islamist presumptions exemplified in your tendentiously wild assertions above.
Actually, there are much more serious and glaring flaws, discrepencies and factual inconsistencies to be found in the Quran and the Hadith ‘sahih’ including many false and baseless claims that can never stand up to scholarly examination and honest critical thinking, when really assessed with a clear and open mind! Thats just ONE of the many reasons forwarded by muslim ulamas that the Quran must never be examined Or studied like a history book with sound and verifiable historical facts (Adnin Armas, International Islamic University/ISTAC, K.L. November 2004, quoted in the publication Republika). That admission in itself tells us that the Quran is a closed book and should only be believed in by slavishly blind faith with no critical thought applied to it whatsoever!
I don’t have to enthusiastically point out to the muslims here that orthodox Muslims themselves have rejected the islamic Hadiths TOTALLY, however ‘Sahih’ the claim is made for them! These include the ‘Quran only’ muslims, the Anti-Hadith Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an_alone) and so on. To them, the Hadiths are full of nonsensical, outdated injunctions and completely irrational advice. Which of course should have been abandoned by Muslims centuries ago! These include the so-called ‘sound hadiths’ of Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tarmizi etc.
Don’t forget also that the Shia Muslims read and subscribe to a TOTALLY AND FULLY DIFFERENT SET of Hadiths from Sunni Muslims. Shias reject absolutely ALL the so-called six Sahih Collections of the Sunnis (Bukhari,Muslim, Abu Dawud etc) in favor of their own shia Hadith sahih collections – and vice versa for the Sunnis. Theologically and in orthopraxy, Sunnis and Shias are worlds apart, indeed, they mutually also ‘kafir-mengkafir’ each other! So, there is really no true consensus in your muslim world thats constantly tearing at itself apart! In Malaysia for instance, you can NEVER FIND a Shia mosque or congregation. If any Shia Muslim tries to set up such a shia mosque there, the Islamic authorities will immediately close it down and arrest its leaders for so-called ‘religious rehabilitation’! What a sham.
So, WHAT truth is there really in Islam?? The above facts point to Islam as an ideology that tries to dominate people tyranically.
So, we who have left Islam, do so, after seriously careful examination of the source of its teachings – the Quran, the Hadith and the sunna of the prophet of Islam. Theres really no sound basis for following such a faith, especially when much of its motivations if any, merely seem to stem from fear – of the ummah, of the afterlife, of death, of punishment in Akhirah, no assurance of entering heaven (except by DYING as a jihadist for Islam) and believing BLINDLY in the Quran.
We have found a much, much better alternative and eternal solution in the Gospel and Injil of Jesus Christ, which, to our intelligent examination and sensible assesments has not been found hollow and wanting like the Quran and the Sunna of Muhammad are.
Please do not think we are trying to offend you with such a response, since you presented your assertions first, brother Muhammad.
May the Heavenly Father, the true Lord of the Universe open your mind and heart to the Way, the Truth and the Life Who is none other than Sayidina Isa al-Masih, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Wasalam, Bro.Hamzah.
Thank you brother Emmanuel, for your truly kind words of encouragement!
The growing numbers of new disciples of Jesus Christ, not only in the Malay and Indonesian world but also world-wide, among former Arab muslims is not only encouraging, but a very real vindication of our existence and an endorsement for your web-Blog.
Keep it up brother,and do NOT let the islamists rantings intimidate you in any way!
Grace and peace in Jesus Christ our living Lord! Hamzah.
Hi Brother Emmanuel,
Thank you for your blessings to me in your reply. Your replies have always been the gracious one amongst the rest in here. And personally, I believe it is with people like you that constructive dialogues can be made possible
you truly are following Jesus teachings in this aspect and I sincerely respect and admire you for that.
Hi Brother Hamzah,
Your reply is not what I would expect from someone like you. If you are as open minded as how I expected you to be, it is difficult for me to understand why is it that you took it too hard when I have questions to ask you. Are you very angry with me brother? Don’t tell me that you are not because it is very evidently found in your reply to my comment. Plenty of CAPS lots of exclamation marks = anger. It just surprises me too brother Hamzah that despite your skills in writing that reply above, you totally missed out on my questions. Worse still, you misinterpreted my comment. And that just compelled me to write a reply.
Let me explain a few things before we begin shall we? Let’s go point by point here to address the issues so that you will not get lost in my comment as how you did the last time ok?
Here it is:
Point 1.
I am your ordinary Joe. I am so un-mat (you just can’t escape this when you come from a mixed parentage). I missed my Subuh prayers at least 3 times a week and my Friday prayers 2 per month. I don’t go to the mosques as often as I should, and the last time I ever recite the Quran was when I was in the “Kelas Mengaji†back in ‘89. I speak English most of the time when I’m with my friends (I have plenty of Non-Malay Christian Friends who are from many different denominations for your info) and to a few handful ones, I spoke German. I have ever dreamt of marrying Cindy Crawford once and I don’t go to “Kelas Ugama†at all now ever since the year 1995. The thought of being a scholar is as good as me living in Mars. So brother Hamzah, where exactly in these descriptions of mine that you see me as a missionary Muslim? Is it because that I have asked you some questions while I’m being a Muslim? I can’t help it but to see what you have described of me “clearly betrays your closed mind, wrapped in your dubious views and presumptionsâ€. That’s right brother Hamzah, presumptions. You presumed that I am a Muslim Missionary before asking for my background. That is being judgemental brother Hamzah, a characteristic of a closed minded person.
Point 2
You accused me of making wild accusation with what you have to say here:
“Wild Accusations and rants against the fundamentals of Christianity, Jesus Christ, the Bible and the Gospel, which obviously, you have never really bothered to examine with REAL CARE and objective consideration.â€
Alright, this is serious here. You are accusing me of accusing something which I did not accuse of in the first place at all in the comment. Please re read my comment in the first place and tell me where exactly is it that I have made wild accusations of the above that you’ve mentioned? Where exactly is this alleged ranting brother Hamzah? Were my opinions and views in my questions looked like wild accusations to you?
Point 3
In this point, I would like to point out on what you’ve said and I quote
“Also, your wild claims about the so-called ‘discrepencies in the Bible’, are again tired and worn-out polemics that missionary muslims like yourself have nothing better to do than to take pot-shots against the Bibleâ€.
Brother Hamzah, please do not put words in my mouth and only see what you want to see. Did Jesus really teach that? What wild claims have I made in the comment? I merely mentioned discrepancies. In a matter of fact, I did say I will not spend time in here talking about the discrepancies that can be found in the Bible. Were you delusional while reading my comment? Or were you trying hard to detract the readers’ attention from the original questions that I have asked? Go on, scroll up and you’ll see them. Those words are still there.
Point 4
From the way you put it, you have somewhat tried to take the readers’ mind off the subject by diverting their attention to the schism in Islam. Please read what you’ve written in your comment here:
“I don’t have to enthusiastically point out to the muslims here that orthodox Muslims themselves have rejected the islamic Hadiths TOTALLY, however ‘Sahih’ the claim is made for them! These include the ‘Quran only’ muslims, …that the Shia Muslims read and subscribe to a TOTALLY AND FULLY DIFFERENT SET of Hadiths from Sunni Muslims. Shias reject absolutely ALL the so-called six Sahih Collections of the Sunnis (Bukhari,Muslim, Abu Dawud etc)â€
It is very interesting to note that you’ve mentioned in great length about these schisms in Islam but conveniently forget to mention about your own side. Let me point out to you brother Hamzah, Christianity is no exception to this universal phenomena. There are also schisms in Christianity, more rampant than you can imagine. You should know very well brother Hamzah, that in the eyes of some Catholics, the Protestants are doomed for hell. And the same goes for in the eyes of the Unitarians, all the Trinitarians are going to hell irregardless of which denomination they’re from. So, who are you to comment on that when both sides are believed to be having the same issue? Letting it all out here will only detract and distract the main subject that I have and we will only end up in circles.
Now that I have addressed my points above brother Hamzah, let us get back to the topic on hand. Despite your lengthy reply to my comment, you still, let me repeat this; still have not answered my questions. These questions aren’t exactly talking bad about Jesus, I will be damned if I were to do that. These questions aren’t even about the Bible origin. It’s a simple question that an ordinary Joe asks. Not a scholar. Not an Imam and even not a Missionary Muslim. Now let’s look at the questions once again.
Question 1:
How did you arrive to the conclusion that Christianity is the religion that we can earn our salvation from?
Question 2:
Have you ever questioned yourself about the origin of this religion?
Question 3:
Have you ever pondered about what happened in Nicea 325 a.d? In the same question, have you also thought about the Unitarians?
Question 4:
Have you ever questioned yourself about who were those people in that event of Nicea Council and what divine authority have they got to come down to a conclusion which results to the existence of one of the most important tenets in the religion that you have embraced today?
Question 5:
Have you ever thought about the origin and consequences of the Doctrine of Atonement?
Question 6:
How about the issue of Sola Fide which still sees itself as the point of dispute between the RCs and the Protestants concerning salvation, have you thought about that?
Question 7:
What actually made you believe in Paul whose authenticity is highly questionable?
I hope these questions will be addressed in the most logical sense and objective consideration. After all, you are not following blindly aren’t you?
Peace and Regards to all
Muhammad
PS: You’ve asked this interesting question brother Hamzah:
“So, WHAT truth is there really in Islam??â€
To this, I will say it is the constant teaching of the past prophets and messengers that were sent down. The teachings which has been constant through out the ages that there is only ONE God with no others beside Him and that the way to salvation is through Faith and Good deeds. Don’t you find it odd brother Hamzah that Paul has preached otherwise? This is a fact that I am saying, have a read on his epistles and tell me if I am being “wild†ya.
Shalom brothers! Be enlighten, I am honoured to be a follower of Muhammad(saw) pbuh & i absolutely believe in all the Prophets before him. Let’s not critic to Book(Torah/Injil/Quran). Aren’t we the seeds of Abraham? Pbuh Ishmael & Isaac, that i am honoured to recognise the word of God(Torah/Injil/Quran). If we seek the truth, we’ll hear the truth. As a Muslim, i am honoured, to be spiritually renew in the name of Jesus pbuh, who is to come. He is to come because, he’d like to safe us all from all these war of words. O Lord, please protect me from false prophet out there & i knew they existed, now. People nowadays talk about God but don’t know how to Glorify Him. Please ask ourself, do you think God pleased with all these war of words. The bad comes from us not from Him, He is Holy. Forgive one another & Love one another. Thank you Jesus, for you are always with me no matter in what kind of situation. With you, who is to come there will be peace. Amen. All i want is you Jesus.
Hello Br.Muhammad,
Firstly, your imputation and assignment of ‘my anger on you’ is already misplaced and laughable. The Caps mean nothing more than EMPHASIS of the points
concerned! I dont have any problems in keeping my head and thinking level, unlike yourself, who must at almost every oppportunity assign non-existent emotions on other people who disagree with your views. As for totally ‘missing out your questions’ I have chosen to answer your initial insinuations re:’Evangelical lies’and your so-called ‘bible discrepencies’ with a quote from a Indonesian Muslim scholar (Adnin Armas) who in 2004 already admitted to the fallibility and vulnerability of the Quran when examined factually and critically by thinking people. This proves that the Quran is itself contains discrepencies and is affirmed furthermore by Muslim scholars.
You chose to conveniently ignore this fact with more distractions & by cynically implying that I ‘got lost’ in your comments. HHmmm..Interesting tactic.
I can oblige you by answering your polemics and continuing attacks on the Christian Gospel according to your format, no problems!
Here it is:
Point 1.
I never asked you ‘to be a scholar’, so you do not need to go to Mars to have a discussion with me! This is another absurd thought you hold to. Even ‘ordinary Joes’ like yourself as you want to put it, does not have to suspend your thinking processes when reading or studying about the historical backgrounds of Christianity or Islam.
BUT a lazy mind that just feeds on one source for the study of Christianity while ignoring other scholarly Biblical research is hollow and shallow at best. For instance if you just read from popular novels like ‘The DaVinci Code’ and buy into their innovative but factually erroneous speculations about the beginnings of the Church and of Jesus Christ’s life and ministry on Earth, then all your ideas and only based upon highly speculative novel/new theories that ARE NOT SUPPORTED by the huge majority of reputable and professional scholars of Biblical studies. And these are just
newly made innovations that are roundly rejected by these historians and Biblical critics because they have no convincing factual evidences to support them!
And yes, every ‘good’ Muslim has to do da’awa ie.Mission with non-muslims, and that includes you, simple as that! I should know.. And yes, your mind is already sold on the conclusion that ‘evangelical Christianity is a lie’; thus, with such conclusions already drawn & subscribed to, all your thoughts and ideas of Christians, the Bible, Christianity are already colored and corrupted negatively on these matters!
THAT is an example of your closed mind. Your unproven assumption that ‘Christians are controlled by a lie’ drives you to that wild speculative conclusion that it must be so! You have judged evangelical Christianity even before examining ALL the key facts and findings by reputable, scholarly research. We are never afraid of such scholarly research and critical examination, unlike Islam and the Quran, as pointed out by Dr.Armas.
Point 2
You accused me of making wild accusation with what you have to say here:
“Wild Accusations and rants against the fundamentals of Christianity, Jesus Christ, the Bible and the Gospel, which obviously, you have never really bothered to examine with REAL CARE and objective consideration.â€
Well Muhammad, here are some specific examples of some of your wild accusations (ALL from your first post) :
‘..The source of the teaching of Christianity itself can be presented as highly questionable.’
The dubious implication that ‘Paul created the teachings of the Bible of today…’ &
‘The questionable origins for the doctrine of the atonement…’ Etc.
IF you really had examined ALL the facts and the full evidences about the early church, the documents and manuscripts of the New Testament carefully, ALL your accusations above and the like, are most easily and effectively refuted and debunked. You obviously never bothered to do such a objective check of the facts, which unfortunately reflects your closed and judgemental mind.
And Those, Muhammad are all wild accusations, indeed.
Point 3
On this point, I would like to point out on what you’ve said and I quote
“Also, your wild claims about the so-called ‘discrepencies in the Bible’, are again tired and worn-out polemics that missionary muslims like yourself have nothing better to do than to take pot-shots against the Bibleâ€.
Brother Hamzah, please do not put words in my mouth and only see what you want to see. Did Jesus really teach that? What wild claims have I made in the
comment? I merely mentioned discrepancies. In a matter of fact, I did say I will not spend time in here talking about the discrepancies that can be found in the Bible. Were you delusional while reading my comment? Or were you trying hard to detract the readers’ attention from the original questions that I have asked?
Muhammad, and I have chosen to answer your initial insinuations re:’Evangelical lies’and your so-called ‘bible discrepencies’ with a quote from a Indonesian Muslim
scholar (Adnin Armas) who in 2004 already admitted to the fallibility and vulnerability of the Quran when examined factually and critically by thinking people. This proves that the Quran is itself contains discrepencies and is affirmed furthermore by Muslim scholars.
You chose to conveniently ignore this fact with more distractions & by cynically implying that I ‘got lost’ in your comments.
Point 4
From the way you put it, you have somewhat tried to take the readers’ mind off the subject by diverting their attention to the schism in Islam. Please read what you’ve written in your comment here:
“I don’t have to enthusiastically point out to the muslims here that orthodox Muslims themselves have rejected the islamic Hadiths TOTALLY, however ‘Sahih’ the claim is made for them! These include the ‘Quran only’ muslims, …that the Shia Muslims read and subscribe to a TOTALLY AND FULLY DIFFERENT SET of Hadiths from Sunni Muslims. Shias reject absolutely ALL the so-called six Sahih Collections of the Sunnis (Bukhari,Muslim, Abu Dawud etc)â€
These are actually, real schisms in Islam, and militate against the validity of the Quran itself and its claims. Why? This shows that the Quran cannot stand on its own!
It actually requires the Hadiths to qualify it, its injunctions and instructions. The Quran instructs Muslims to pray and to fast, BUT HOW TO pray and how to fast the Quran FAILS to explain or clarify.
For that, ilm’ Usuluddin (Science of the Roots of Islamic Religion) points Muslims to the Hadith and the Sunna for guidance. And here, there is absolutely no unity of consensus or voice. The Sunnis and Shias follow totally divergent collections of Hadith traditions.
My point is simply that there is great confusion and contradictions in the essential practice of Islam due to this. Add to that, the rejection of ALL the Hadith by some orthodox Muslims, to follow the ‘Quran Only’ confirms this fact.
Now, to your Q&A;
Question 1:
How did you arrive to the conclusion that Christianity is the religion that we can earn our salvation from?
Of course. But it is NOT as you put it, that Christians ‘earn their salvation through this “religion”.’ Christianity is not a religion per se, ie.a religous system of ‘Dos and Don’ts’. It is derived from embracing what Jesus Christ declared in Matthew 20:28 that :
‘The Son of Man (Jesus Christ) came into this World, to give up and sacrifice His life, as a Ransom for many’.
Matt.20:28
Salvation, muhammad, is not from following a religious system, BUT is derived from a NEW RELATIONSHIP, one in which God sees us Relating to Him in the One and Only who has the heavenly and earthly authority to give to us ETERNAL LIFE, Jesus Christ Himself.
“I – Christ Jesus, give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..” John 10 : 28
And this is confirmed by:
“All things have been committed (given) to me by my Father ie.God/Allah. NO ONE knows the Son except the Father, and NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER (God) except the Son [Jesus Christ] and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matthew 11:27.
“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came down from heaven — the Son of Man (Jesus Himself).” John 3:13.
Question 2:
Have you ever questioned yourself about the origin of this religion?
Yes, of course. You need to do the very same enquiry about the origins of Islam, which are very dubious and questionable.
Question 3:
Have you ever pondered about what happened in Nicea 325 a.d? In the same question, have you also thought about the Unitarians?
Yes of course. All the Christian church leaders were invited by the Emperor of Rome for an international Conference. The Bishops and Presbyters who represented all the Christians then congregated together to discuss and to confirm all the key tenets of the Gospel teaching.
Christianity was never invented at Nicea, nor was the Bible finalised at Nicea! The authoritative Books of the Bible were already clearly established, in circulation and distingished from the false writings much earlier from this date!
No new Christian teaching was ever made at Nicea. The church Fathers just affirmed what was the already existing Gospel teachings by Jesus Christ and had been followed faithfully by the Christians for the previous 300 years, and formalised these key tenets in a statement that was agreed upon by all the leaders.
You are wrong, there were no ‘Unitarians’ there. There was Arius, one of the Conference participants, and his followers called Arians.
Arianism failed to understand that in Jesus we meet the Uncreated One – as is recorded in the earliest records of Jesus’ life and deeds. Arius thought Jesus was just a creature. That runs counter to the whole apostolic testimony, particularly in all the records of the 4 Gospels, and the words and claims of Christ Himself. Theological definitions arrived at Nicea are precise because they look for language that rules out heretical interpretations DISTINGUISHED from the original earliest teachings and statements of Jesus Christ Himself.
The overwhelming majority of the Bishops and church leaders present at Nicea confirmed that Jesus Himself taught His divinity and divine nature. Some had links to the actual original 12 disciples of Christ Himself, to Apostle John, Apostle Peter, Apostle James etc. And to their disciples in turn. Go and study these statements made by Jesus, with an open mind and heart, Muhammad:
John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!â€
John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed (in Jesus as God).â€
Mark 14:61 Again the High Priest asked Jesus, “Are you the Christ, the Son of God (the Blessed One)?â€
Mark 14:62 “I am,†said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.â€
Mark 14:63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?†he asked.
Mark 14:64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?†They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Question 4:
Have you ever questioned yourself about who were those people in that event of Nicea Council and what divine authority have they got to come down to a conclusion which results to the existence of one of the most important tenets in the religion that you have embraced…
Wrong accusation/suspicion, again! They had never ‘come to a conclusion’, BUT they all in overwhelming majority, confirmed together what was already in the current and in the ancient practice of the early church and first Century AD Christians, and crystalised these tenets in a agreed Statement accepted practically by everybody
present at this Conference/mushawarah – called the Nicene Creed.
And this reflected accurately the authentic teachings of Jesus Christ and the beliefs of Christians from the time Jesus walked the earth and taught and showed things about Himself that expressed most clearly to all his eyewitnesses that Jesus had a divine
nature, and that He was not merely another human being!
Nothing was added nor removed to what were already the existing Apostolic beliefs enshrined in the 4 authoritative Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, and held by the Christians since the first Century AD, until that year 325 AD.
Question 5:
Have you ever thought about the origin and consequences of the Doctrine of Atonement?
This was actually the original teaching of Jesus Christ Himself to all his 12 disciples
and to all His earliest followers, as shown in Jesus statements:
“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came down from heaven — the Son of Man (Jesus Himself).” John 3:13.
“I – Christ Jesus, give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..” John 10 : 28
“The Son of Man (Jesus Christ) came into this World, to give and sacrifice His life, as a Ransom for many’ Matthew 20:28
The Parables He taught them particularly the Parable of the Vineyard Owner’s Son and the wicked Tenants (and others) have the clear major themes of atonement in
Jesus Christ.
Now, MY question to you: Have you ever read yourself, these verses above, or even studied the parables of Jesus especially the ones highlighted above, with an open heart and mind?
QUestions 6 & 7 will be reserved for another day, alright?
As for your last comment on the ‘truth in Islam’, we ex-Muslims who now follow the true Injil of Jesus Christ – as found in the pages of today’s Holy Bible, are even purer monotheists. We do not worship ’3 Gods’ as is often accused of us! That is a false and fallacious accusation with no truthful basis whatsoever.
And we also realise that we cannot ‘earn salvation’ via faith and good deeds.
THAT has already been accomplished for us, and indeed the whole of humankind by the redeeming work of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary. which factually
took place > 2,000 years ago, outside the city of Jerusalem in Israel. No reputable Historian ever denies this historical fact! It WAS Jesus Christ WHo died
on that Cross, and it was no ‘substitute of his’, as islam wildly theorizes.
One of the closest disciples of Christ, the apostle John, declared without apologies :
1 John 2 : 1 I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense —Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
1 Jn 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Jn 5:9 We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
1 Jn 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
1 Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 Jn 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life
Shalom, Bro.Hamzah.
Peace and blessings to you Brother Hamzah!
Its been quite a while now since you have answered my questions. Well, sort off that is. But in any case, I got a little worried when you went missing for quite a few days now. I was relieved to see that you have actually replied to another article by Brother Emmanuel today. It just shows that you are alright there
Just so to let you know bro…I am still hoping to see you answer my question 6 and 7 which you have reserved for another day..I hope you don’t have any problem there ya.
Will be giving you my full reply after yours.
Peace and regards
Muhammad
Well now, br.Muhd, I dont think I will be doing Question n.6 & & 7, until AFTER, I get your reply to my reply.
As it is, my reply to you (less # 6 & 7), is already long enough!
I’ve been waiting for your reponse to my response (less 6 & 7) nonetheless, but you seem to have disappeared..!
So lets not play this waiting game much longer, eh…:-)))
Shalom Ha Mashach, Br.Hamzah.
Hi there Brother Hamzah,
wow, very prompt reply indeed you have there
and a hilarious waiting game we have got ourselves into here too 
Actually bro, I have the habit of following protocols of letting the other person to finish what they’ve got to say first before saying my piece. So in this case, as how you put it that you don’t have problems in answering my questions, I will let you have the honor to finish the questions first before giving my full reply ya. Let it be long as you wish but I hope you summarize them for the benefit of some readers who may get lost along the way…
So, hoping to see your reply soon
Peace and regards to you bro,
Muhammad
I am not into protocols, really Muhammad, so pls.go ahead with your answer, if any…:-))
Theres more than enough content in my reply for you to think over, so, like I said, I will not be answering 6 & 7 until I get your responses to what I have responded thus far..
Thats not a problem to you, is it?
Br.Hamzah.
Hi Bro Hamzah,
thanks for the speedy reply again.
Yes, you do have a mammoth of a content
but don’t worry about the content amount because after all, I was the one who brought up those questions and I am interested in their answers.
So please, like I’ve mentioned earlier, my reply will be followed by your answers to my questions. Hope you do not have any problems in answering my final two questions bro.
Waiting patiently for your answers now
Br. Muhammad
Br.Muhd, since you are so insistent for answers, I have no problem to answer them. However I am goning to give you only the short version and the briefest replies.
Q6. Sola fide is not a major contention between RCs and Protestants at all! You are deliberately making a mountain out of a molehill, a perceived issue from a non-issue.
According to the teachings of Jesus Christ, we are saved to eternal life BY FAITH IN HIM, that results in a transformed life of good works and a lifestyle that is pleasing to Almighty God. This fact is the common factor between RCs and Protestants. Both RCs and Evangelicals have strong ecumenical movements within them that have built solid bridges of unity, collaboration and brotherhood binding us together.
The schism between Sunni and Shia muslims is much worse. As proven in mutual kafir-mengkafir/anathemas/infidelising between the two, and shown in what I already pointed out in Malaysia -illegal Shia congregations/mosques, and in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and in India where Muslim Sunnis and Shias actually kill and out-bomb each other on weekly or monthly basis, all these rising from irreconcilable & mutually intolerable splits in fundamental theological doctrines.
Q7. Now, about your allegation of the so-called ‘Paul’s highly questionable authenticity’ is pure speculation and merely desperate islamist polemics from the muslims. The ball is totally in your court to factually and convincingly PROVE this false and desperate accusation.
From what we ex-Muslims have seen and read from the Muslim missionaries so far, all your ‘arguments’ are nothing more than red herrings and baseless paper tigers that have no substance and cuts NO ICE whatsoever!
Suffice for me to say that, to suggest that Saul, who was the avowed and deadliest ENEMY OF THE CHRISTIANS of the day, who violently and aggressively terrorised and attacked the early Church whereever he went, AND THEN BECAME the CHristians’ and the Gospel’s greatest missionary, that THIS was based on invalid and questionable reasons, is the height of irrationality and proof of unsound minds, truly!
APART from Paul having experienced a real and miraculous self-realisation that led to his complete repentance, there is no other sound and convincing reason for his transformation from a violent persecutor of the Christians to become their most passionate defender and evangelist, for Paul also went on to die & sacrifice his own life in martyrdom for his Lord Jesus Christ in Rome, as history confirms.
To suggest that he would do that due to false, questionable motives and/or insincerity is at best, mindless and at worst the height of stupidity.
We ex-muslims have found more ulterior motives and questionable reasons present in prophet Muhammad’s career and vocation as a ‘prophet’ that has opened our eyes to his invalidity and inauthenticity as a so-called ‘prophet’, which is just one of the many reasons why we have abandoned Islam, for the TRUE Light of the World – Jesus Christ the only Messiah.
This is my shortened version of my reply to all your questions, you must be rather satisfied by now…:))!
Shalom, br.Hamzah.
Salam.
Bravo brother muhammad. Wow, antagonist Syukri. What a name. Don’t worry bro. I will adress all of them since I finished my project.
Syukri Al Malizi
If you can, syukri, if you just can…:-))
So far, muhammad has never been able to keep his word to reply me, even after I have already obliged him by giving him his ‘demanded’ answers so promptly.
NOW, you have to try and jump into the fray…tsk, tsk, tsk…:-))
To save him from the effort to cook up more lame and wild excuses to attack the Christian faith and the true Gospel!
Just remember, Malay does NOT equal to Muslim, and vice versa…!
Only a close minded, unthinking person / fool will equate race with ANY religon!
Now, syukri, do think on that , for a moment!
Wasalaam, Hamzah.
Bro Hamzah,
I like you confidence and enthsiasm. I hope you don’t be like Sgcamper who can’t answer my argument and close his blogpost
Anyway, Hamzah is a good name, he is prophet Muhammad uncle who died for the sake of Islam.
Syukri
Salam Syukri,
And I hope that you will not just engage in worthless and false polemics blindly, attacking the Bible, historic Christianity, Christians and ex-Muslims turned Christians here, for nothing than just venom.
Insyaallah, we shall all see.
Hamzah.
Salam Brother Syukri and also to you too Brother Hamzah,
Hope everyone is in good health. I mean, one just has to be more vigilant at times like now. I’m sure all of us are aware of the H1N1 virus that’s making its round now and let us not take any chances with this.
First off, I really like to thank you Brother Syukri “the Antagonist” for the support. I really appreciate that
. That “Antagonist” name that has been labelled onto you by Brother Hamzah sure sound fierce ya? Lol. Well, to me Brother Syukri, that is just Brother Hamzah’s habitual way of calling names to other people besides the hurling of blind accusations which he himself can’t exactly point out where. He is denying this but he can get emotional at times. It is just so evident in his choice of words that he used in his replies to my comments. It doesn’t affect me in any way though because all these name callings, they are nothing but just childish games of mental intimidation. I am getting used to it now 
My thanks shall go to you too Brother Hamzah, for answering my questions briefly and also for having me in your mind
Well, at least I know now I have actually created an impression there and will be remembered for a long while. We sure have such a love hate relationship going on here wouldn’t you agree 
I must say, you do have such bold, confidence and unfortunately for you, baseless statements in your comments. No prompt reply from me does not necessarily equate to me not having anything to comment Brother Hamzah. In fact, there are a lot that I would love to comment on but that would just exhaust out my precious time. Unlike you Brother Hamzah, I do not have the luxury to reply the very next few hours or so to other people’s comments. I have other much more important affairs to attend to that I just can’t afford to do that. Just so to let you know, people need my decisions to execute the tasks on hand. And I have deadlines to meet that just makes this little “war of words” (as how Bro Riduwanapro puts it) of ours so insignificant in my routine for now. But in any case, your latest comment on me has just forced me to make room for some time to reply back to you.
Like I’ve mentioned earlier on Brother Hamzah, I do have alot to say about all those baseless blind accusations and comments that you have made on me in your response to my earlier comments. But to discuss about them with you will not only be lengthy but it is also fruitless. You will forever remain in your world of you only see what you want to see and say what you want to say without any solid grounds to stand on. Your latest reply brother Hamzah will be sufficient enough for me to proof that point. I don’t need to touch on the rest, for in your desperate attempt to discredit and ridicule me you have actually done so unto yourself. Our replies are testimonials to my point here and any intellectually open minded readers who happened to read them will easily see this point of mine that I am making.
Brother Hamzah, one can see that you have grown an obsession in pointing out to the Schism in Islam. It just amazes me that with your passion in the topic, you have decided to keep mum on your side and start to divert readers attention to somewhere else instead…which in this case, its anti-Islam sentiments regarding this issue. Despite you saying that you “don’t have to enthusiastically point out”, all in all, I have counted that there are three times you’ve repeated this and two times you have mentioned “kafir-mengkafirkan” amongst ourselves the Muslims like as if Christianity is free from these Schisms and apostatizing of one another. But nevertheless brother Hamzah, your answer to my question 6 is proof to that point of mine that you have actually suppressed the truth about these things happening in Christianity and along with it your credibility in presenting Christianity in an honest way. And this point will be enough to discredit you in writing on top of the replies we have.
My question 6 was:
And how about the issue of Sola Fide which still sees itself as the point of dispute between the RCs and the Protestants concerning salvation, have you thought about that?
With no apologies, your bold but baseless opening statement to that question reads:
“Sola fide is not a major contention between RCs and Protestants at all! You are deliberately making a mountain out of a molehill, a perceived issue from a non-issue.”
So, its “a perceived issue from a non-issue” aye? Brother Hamzah, were you hoping that I will be ignorant enough to believe that? Is the true method for salvation not an issue to you brother Hamzah? Did you take it for granted that I do not have Catholic and ex-Catholic friends and relatives? Did you really think that I did not even for once ever step into a church and listen to sermons? Did you also really think that I have not even thought of converting to Catholicism or Christianity in some point of my life for that matter? It is either that you were hoping that I will be ignorant enough or you yourself Brother Hamzah is ignorant on this issue and not having read much about it and only uses cut and paste templates of some quotes from some Murtad scholar in Indonesia just to frantically prove your point and distracting people away from the question.
If you are not aware of it Brother Hamzah, your one sentence answer can’t really sum up to the MAJOR issue that you and the Catholics are facing in what you have perceived as a “perceived issue from a non-issue”. This is a FACT that you have desperately tried to hide. If you bother to read enough about this Brother Hamzah, you or anyone else will see that your blind accusation that I am “deliberately making a mountain out of a molehill, a perceived issue from a non-issue†regarding this will fall flat on the face. I will use a neutral source for facts here so neither of us can dispute. And my source will be the very same source that you proudly present to me about the very short article regarding Quran only Muslims. It will be Wikipedia.
I will just summarize the important part. The details are in here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide#Roman_Catholic_view.
Read here what has been written in Wikipedia Brother Hamzah:
“Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith, is a controversial doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Eastern Christianity, and most Restorationists in Christianity.â€
It states here that it is a CONTROVERSIAL DOCTRINE. So, is a controversial doctrine a perceived issue from a non-issue here brother Hamzah? We are talking about a doctrine that determines who is going to hell for eternity and who is not here by following the right way for salvation! If you still absurdly say it is really nothing, read on and see what the Catholics has got to say about this “infallible” Doctrine of yours.
Here is the definition from Wikipedia regarding the Catholic’s view on salvation in case if you have not known about it:
“The Roman Catholic view tends to exclude sola fide as grounds for justification, holding instead that GOOD WORKS ARE ALSO NECESSARY FOR SALVATION, Matthew 25:31-46…â€
It states GOOD WORKS ARE ALSO NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. Which in your case, Faith alone is just good enough for salvation? According to the Catholics, based on Matthew 25:31-46 the Protestants are going to eternal hell brother Hamzah for not following the commandments in doing good works which is also necessary for salvation. That is your Kafir Mengkafirkan! Why did you leave that out in your strive to answer my question 6? Is going to eternal hell really means nothing to you and that is why you mentioned that this issue is a “perceived issue from a non-issue�
Adding on now, see what has the Catholics got to say on this “perceived issue of a non-issue†of yours here Brother Hamzah. I shall quote from a Catholic source for this and not from some Muslim scholars.
“Justification By Faith Alone” in practice
This principle bears upon conduct, unlike free judgment, which bears on faith. It is not subject to the same limitations, for its practical application requires less mental capacity; its working cannot be tested by anyone; it is strictly personal and internal, thus escaping such violent conflicts with community or state as would lead to repression. On the other hand, as it evades coercion, lends itself to practical application at every step in man’s life, and favours man’s inclination to evil by rendering a so-called “conversion” ludicrously easy, its baneful influence on morals is manifest. Add to justification by faith alone the doctrines of predestination to heaven or hell regardless of man’s actions, and the slavery of the human will, and it seems inconceivable that any good action at all could result from such beliefs. As a matter of history, public morality did at once deteriorate to an appalling degree wherever Protestantism was introduced. Not to mention the robberies of Church goods, brutal treatment meted out to the clergy, secular and regular, who remained faithful, and the horrors of so many wars of religion, we have Luther’s own testimony as to the evil results of his teaching (see Janssen, “History of the German People”, Eng. tr., vol. V, London and St. Louis, 1908, 27-83, where each quotation is documented by a reference to Luther’s works as published by de Wette).
Go here for a full read: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm
So, there you have it, your “perceived issue from a non-issueâ€. Where is this unity consensus of voice in your Christianity now? It is no wonder your answer to my question regarding Sola Fide was in such a simplest and briefest form. Just like how the Catholics put it regarding this doctrine of justification by faith alone “…its practical application requires less mental capacityâ€.
On the case of Kafir mengkafirkan
Brother Hamzah, if you haven’t read enough, apostatizing and killing each other due to dogma differences is not unique to just Muslims. Again, you have greatly shown your ignorance in this matter by trying to portray very hard in apologetic manner that Christianity is free from this. Doesn’t the word GREAT APOSTASY sounds familiar to you? If it doesn’t, how about the INQUISITIONS then? Or have you ever read about the ALBIGENSIAN CRUSADE where about 200,000 to 1,000,000 people (WOMEN AND CHILDREN INCLUDED) who were in a different brand of Christianity were massacred in the name of Christ just because the then contemporary church labelled them as heretics? And how about the many lives that have been lost at the burning stakes all in the name of Christ? Have you read about them before ranting on about suicide bombers and sectarian killings as though Christianity doesn’t have an iota of such happenings amongst yourselves? It seems more evidently now Brother Hamzah that it is you whose mind and eyes are sealed.
In your attempt to seal off Christianity from the schism topic, you have actually said:
“Both RCs and Evangelicals have strong ecumenical movements within them that have built solid bridges of unity, collaboration and brotherhood binding us together.”
I can’t help it but to wonder if you really are an innocent and ignorant victim to dishonest representation or do you really know and understand what you are talking about. Do you read the news or keep up with what’s going on around your world Brother Hamzah? To the well read, that statement of yours comes nothing short of than just a mere wishful thinking from you. Read here on what the Pope has got to say:
Pope: Only One “True” Church
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/10/world/main3037922.shtml
Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288841,00.html
Well Brother Hamzah, apparently the Pope has just burnt those solid bridges of yours.
I have written quite a lot for just one point. Nevertheless, I will end this comment with a simple question again about The Apostle Paul.
The religion of Islam as preached by Prophet Muhammad and also Abraham, Moses and all the prophets of old preached in harmony the one teaching that God has commanded. I believe God is a just God and He will not turn back on His words. The message from Him has always been clear and constant through out the ages. That is, to pray to the One God. Only Him and no others. And your way to salvation will be through faith and good deeds. Now really, don’t you find it odd brother Hamzah that the apostle Paul has preached very differently from Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and even Jesus?
Wassalam to all
Muhammad
PS Here is a thought to ponder. It is a historical fact that the Bible has been corrupted at least once by the hands of man. My allegations are not baseless. See the dispute regarding 1 John 5:7. Go here to read further http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_John_5:7#Manuscript_evidence. Its wikipedia Brother Hamzah, your choice site of reference. Are you going to accuse Wikipedia of making wild accusations now?
Tsk..tsk..tsk..Muhammad,
Trying to pin down the ‘emotional’ label on me won’t get you very far, if at all!
Clearly, it is you yourself, having nothing much sound to say in response to my rebuttals of your wild and nonsensical attacks on historic Christianity and the Gospel, that you have to keep resorting to such name-calling and labelling as red herrings and are just typical ways that muslim polemicists frequently indulge to distract people from the main points!
Like I already told you, as regards to my answers to the last 2 points, ie.#6 & 7, I am only going to give you the ‘briefest of answers’, and that was exactly what I did.
I have already given a very long enough response to your attacks in your comments & polemics in 1 – 5.
As regards to those, I am only interested to what the Bible and the Gospel teaches about Salvation, in particular what Christ Jesus Himself has clearly taught about this.
And that, salvation is only THROUGH HIM, and no one or nothing else!
As what Jesus Himself already declared to His disciples :
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those TO WHOM THE Son CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.
Matthew 11:27
And:
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall NEVER PERISH; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”
JOHN 10: 25-30
The truths represented in these 2 Passages above, are held by both Protestants and Roman Catholics alike.
The source of salvation is ONLY ONE…JESUS HIMSELF WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY and the Power to dispense it to whoever He chooses – Matthew 11:27 above.
Evangelicals hold to the fact that after receiving salvation in Christ, their lives are transformed to become full of good deeds and virtuous behaviors.
RCs hold that it is through BOTH Jesus Christ and good works they are saved.
We see no contradiction whatsoever in the above two positions, the common denominator is Jesus Christ Himself, as per the Scriptures are so clear about!
About your attack on the 1 John passage, I am fully aware of it. It has no impact on Christian doctrine whatsoever. We have also found verses that are are missing from the Quran, and affirmed and confirmed by islamic sources themselves!
Read all the facts of these missing quranic verses and the major disagreements that Muslim scholars have fought each other on this, here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Bahasa/Quran/kemusykilan_surah_9.html
Wasalaam, Hamzah.
Helloo bros.Muhd and Syukri,
Sorry to give you just the Bahasa Melayu article link, for the Discussion about the questionable verses in the Quran viz.Sura a-tauba 9 v.128-129.
The English discussion is much more clearer, and heres a part of the discussion :
Controversies over Sura 9:128/129
By Aisha Y. Musa
The history of the text the Qur’an shows that verses found at the end of Surat al-Tawba (9:128/129) are distinguished from other verses in the Qur’an by the number and variety of conflicting reports regarding their collection and placement in the text.
These reports are related by such well-respected and widely accepted scholars as al-Bukhari and Jalal al-Din alSuyuti, among others. The verses are unique in two important respects. These are classical orthodox Muslim sources, not the works of heterodox, or heretical sects.
Abu Abdullah Muhammad al-Bukhari (d. 256 AH/870 CE) is famous as a collector of hadiths, or traditions of Muhammad. His most famous work al-Jami’ al-Sahih is considered by the majority of traditional Muslims to be the most authentic collection of prophetic hadiths, and the most important book after the Qur’an.
Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti (d. 1509 CE) was renown as a scholar in a variety of disciplines who wrote many important works. The one which concerns us here is his, al-Itqan fi `Ulumil-Qur’an, one the most extensive works ever written on the various fields of Qur’anic Studies.
Here, we will examine the various reports found in these and other works, related to 9:128/129, and bring out some of the questions these reports raise about the collection of the text and the criteria used to include, or exclude verses. We will consider some of the answers suggested by traditional scholarship, as well as what remains to be addressed and answered.
We will see that the verses are unique in two important respects. First, it is generally agreed upon by Muslims that God determined the arrangement of the Qur’an’s verses (al-Suyuti vol. 1, 60). But we will see that several reports indicate the placement of 9:128/129 in the written text was decided by others after Muhammad’s death. Second, although other verses required a minimum of two witnesses to be accepted and written in the text, 9:128/129 was reportedly found with only one man.
Accounts differ as to exactly who that man was, and as to the circumstances under which the verses were placed in the Qur’an. But each account shows just one man reporting them.
Two men whose names figure prominently in the reports we will examine are Zaid ibn Thabit and Ubayy ibn Ka’ab. Both of these men were from Medina, and were Muhammad’s chief secretaries. They were primarily responsible for writing down the verses of the Qur’an as they were revealed. In his History, al-Tabari reports that Ubayy was the first to write for Muhammad in Medina (vol. 9, 147). Various sources indicate that Zaid ibn Thabit was quite young at the time of the Hijra–Muhammad’s emigration from Mecca to Medina in 622 CE—being only about 11. Despite his youth, Zaid’s intelligence and language abilities gained him a position as one of Muhammad’s most important secretaries. It was Zaid who was given the primary responsibility for collecting and organising the text of the Qur’an after Muhammad’s death (EI 1, viii, 1194b-1195a).
The first indication of the uniqueness of 9:128/129 appears in the story related by al-Bukhari about the collection of the Qur’an during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. After describing how Abu Bakr and `Umar convinced him to collect the Qur’an, Zaid ibn Thabit says:
So I pursued collecting the Qur’an from bare palm branches, thin, flat, white stones, and the hearts of men until I found the end of Surat al-Tawba with Abu Khuzaima al-Ansari. I did not find it with anyone other than him: Indeed a messenger has come to you from among yourselves. Your suffering is hard on him… to the conclusion of Bara’a (al-Bukhari, Matn vol. 3, 225).
Three versions of this account are found in al-Bukhari,in his section on the collection of the Qur’an (cited above), in his section on the scribe of the messenger, and in his section on the explanation of Surat Bara’a [al-Tawba]. Some versions say the verses were found with Khuzaima al-Ansari rather than Abu Khuzaima (al-Bukhari, Matn; vol. 3, 140, 226). Every history of the collection of the Qur’an quotes some version of it, making it perhaps the most repeated story on the subject.
One other verse, 33:21, is the subject of a similar report mentioning Khuzaima al-Ansari. Two versions are included by alBukhari, in the discussion of the collection of the Qur’an under `Uthman, and in the section on the explanation of Sura 33 (al-Azhab). The second of these quotes Zaid ibn Thabit as saying:
When we copied the pages into volumes, I failed to find a verse from Sura al-Azhab, that I used to hear God’s messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, reciting. I did not find it with anyone except Khuzaima al-Ansari, whose testimony God’s messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, had made as the testimony of two men… (al- Bukhari, Matn vol. 3, 175).
This account differs significantly from the account about 9:128/129 in that here Zaid says that he used to hear the messenger recite the verse in question. But when in the report regarding the end of Surat al-Tawba, he says he found it with no one else. …..
Read the REST of it here:
http://www.quran.org/9128.htm
Go, read and study it HONESTLY for yourself!
The Bible is NOT like the Quran or what the Quran claims to be for itself – a ‘book that came down from heaven’ from the so-called ummul kitab / mother of the Book!
IF the Quran truly ‘came down from the mother of the Book’, it should never have the kinds of problems that this Article is highlighting and discussing about!
This discussion clearly proves and casts doubts that the Quran could ever be from the true God that he was able to ‘guard his words from changes’! For it surely was changed by the quran compilers.
This is just the tip of the iceberg of the quran’s many textual and documentary problems and inconsistencies!
Wasalaam, Hamzah.
Hi there Br.Hamzah,
That was really a speedy reply. It seems to me you sure have a lot of spare time in your hands. Well as mentioned before, unfortunately I don’t. Thus it’ll take a while before you see me again..that’ll just leave some room for you to “miss” me ya
I am going to be brief here and going to ask you just one question from your comment. InsyaAllah I will address the other allegations you’ve made later when I have the free time to do so.
Your latest reply Br.Hamzah is as expected. High in eloquence but super low in content.
Tell me Br.Hamzah, do you actually read all my comments? Or do you only read selectively and later tweaked them to suit your unfounded points?
Let me remind you Br.Hamzah in case you’ve missed some of my words, I wished for you to present Christianity in an honest way as how I have stated in my very first comment. And so far, you have failed to do so.
Unlike you Br.Hamzah, I’ve pulled quotes from neutral sources that have a certain degree of authority (i.e. Wikipedia, CBS News and Fox News for neutrality.). I also quote from direct sources (i.e. Catholic site to quote what the Catholic says) and not from one sided anti-Christianity sites like how you did with your “facts” being heavily dressed with articles from http://www.answering-islam.org, which is of course, an anti-Islam website.
In your attempt to brush off the complicated but IMPORTANT Doctrinal issue of Sola Fide, you proudly said that:
“Like I already told you, as regards to my answers to the last 2 points, ie.#6 & 7, I am only going to give you the ‘briefest of answers’, and that was exactly what I did.”
So Br.Hamzah, was this brief answer of yours true to the facts?
You simply and conveniently left out the part where there are differences in the understanding of this Doctrine on your first attempt of answering me by only mentioning the Protestant’s view.
You in fact have even tried to suppress the truth by saying that “Sola fide is not a major contention between RCs and Protestants at all!”
It is only later on after I have presented you with the NEUTRAL FACTS that you then said this:
“Evangelicals hold to the fact that after receiving salvation in Christ, their lives are transformed to become full of good deeds and virtuous behaviors.
RCs hold that it is through BOTH Jesus Christ and good works they are saved.”
My question now is this. Why didn’t you use this later statement of yours (which is equally brief) instead for your first attempt in addressing my question?
Hoping to hear some answers from you now
Salam to you Bro,
Muhammad
Hi there paranoid dawagandist Syukri (and Muhd,too),
Muhd, you may as well gain an education for your wilful ignorance – that Christianity is not growing only FAST in the two-thirds world – but also have gained strong following in advanced countries like South Korea, Singapore – including among the Malays there, Hong Kong, even in China, where there is great oppression on Cristian believers.
Syukri’s caricature that Christianity grew only with the help of colonialists (see your post) is also a bankrupt idea! That idea is already proven out dated and LAPUK…!! HAHAHAHA.
Islam is growing in the west only by immigration and child reproduction. NOT by conversions. If Islamic nations are so great, properous and blessed, why do Muslims from 3rd countries LEAVE their muslim homelands for the much greener pastures of USA, Canada, Australia NZ, etc?? Muslims are forbidden from typical family planning and / or abortions so their family sizes can only increase exponentially, especially when a muslim man can have up to FOUR wives.
The West is well aware of the extremist and close-minded nature of Islam – as per the Danish cartoons of Muhammad prove, the murder of Theodore Van Gogh and of course, the Islamic terror attacks on the WTC on September 11, 2001. So, theres no real sound reasons for them to want to embrace Islam! Which is an anti-rationalistic belief system. Those events have opened the eyes of many westerners to the tyranny of islam.
On the other hand, many Muslims have abandoned Islam for Christianity – especially in the Arab and Iranian worlds!
You probably want to hide the facts that Arab MUSLIMS have also left and abandoned Islam – at the fantastic rate of tens of thousands and also in MILLIONS.
Muslim clerics (Imams, Mullahs, muftis etc) and leaders have themselves grudgingly admitted and confessed to this fact!
Here is the evidence that North Africa is one such place where muslims are abandoning Islam – in Millions annually:
http://www.aljazeera.net/programs/shareea/articles/2000/12/12-12-6.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103p2.htm
In others places – like Russia:
2 million ethnic Muslims converted to Christianity in Russia
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=513
About the mass exodus opf muslims leaving islam in Africa, this was what Ahmad al-Qataani said:
“There are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity
These numbers are very large indeed �..”
Read MORE about the hemorrage islam is experiencing today around the world, here:
http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2133&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
10,000 Frech Muslims converted to Christianity in last years,
http://alonzo-95.skyblog.com/
For English Translation : http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt … 560#251560
200,000 UK Muslims Left Islam
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html
And, of course, Iranian muslims have been abandoning islam for a while already:
50,000 Iranian Muslims have embraced Christianity in Iran in last 2 years
http://www.iam-online.net/Press_release_PDFs/IAMTVrelease_FINAL.doc (Read-Only
So, you see, such claims to the contrary are all now debunked and are all proven to be false and nothing more than hot air, Syukri and Muhamad!
These are also independent and objective sources that are reporting the facts as they occur around the World.
Wassalaam, Hamzah.
Dawagandist Muhammad,
Still waiting for any sensible reply from you TO MY post above (of June 24th, 2009) which proves the questionable placing of Ayahs / Ayats in your Quran, especially Sura at taubah, 9 verses 128-129!
If you are too shy or afraid to read the http://www.answering-islam.org Exposure pages, then go read the facts from here:
http://www.quran.org/9128.htm
Which IS NOT an answering-islam.org initiative!
Wassalaam, Hamzah.
Hi Br Hamzah,
Dawagandist? Is there such a word around (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Dawagandist)? You sure can get creative in calling people names don’t you? You truely are a specialist in this name calling business.
Brother Hamzah, your latest two comments proove nothing more than just your frantic desperation in trying to divert people’s attention away from my question, again.
Please dont try to escape this. I have asked just one simple question and I am going to ask you again now.
Why didn’t you use the later statement of yours which is equally brief instead for your first attempt in addressing my question regarding Sola Fide?
Looking forward to your reply now.
Muhammad
Well, then let me help you understand that term BETTER..:-))
Its term of endearment, kind of, for missionaries like yourself, Syukri etc who always inordinately love attacking the Gospel and Christianity, indulging in the false hopes that these EX-Muslims who have embraced authentic Christianity would perhaps return to islam…LOLLL!!
Dawa means islamic missions to convert the world into islam, ‘..ganda’ is from the second part or ‘propoGANDA’ which means false and exaggerated hype.
So, ‘Dawaganda’ – is simply the promotion and spreading of islamic/quranic false teachings and hype, which is what is it is and nothing else..:-))
And, no, this time I will not be obliging your incessant demands for more answers again and again! Even though I am fully able to deal with them.
I have already been very nice and good towards you – and I may add, the likes of Syukri too, in giving you what you constantly DEMANDED!
NOW, it is FULLY YOUR TURN, Muhd, to reciprocate with answers and replies TO ME, for a change and in ALL FAIRNESS and justice. Deal with my Question/s – which are far less numerous than yours anyway!
Otherwise, I know that you -And Syukri too, are just hoaxes, who REALLY do not wish to discuss, and, is just further confirmation you all are nothing mre than desperate dawagandists wanting to bull-doze the other Christians here, esp. Those Ex-Muslims turned Christians.
And Whose faith you fanatically but mindlessly want to overturn!
You two must get used to the facts – that Tens of thousands of Muslims have already abandoned Islam and the Quran for the truth of Christianity, especially over the last 30 years!
These Muslim terrorists are examples of Muslims who have seen through the falsehoods and deceptions of Islam and the bankrupt Quran and so have turned their lives fully OVER to the Lord Jesus Christ! Consequently, the have transformed to become much better persons and peaceful loving Christians than their previous lives as muslim radicals could EVER BE! Such is the power of the true Injil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uIOIG-mlE8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPe8NtArqiE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC8VNZzp9Ps&feature=related
Wasaalaam, bro.Hamzah.
Hi there Br Hamzah,
Trying to divert people’s attention again and again? In any case, well done, you have just proven yourself to be capable of cooking up something which is non-existence. Instant point in case for this matter will be the word “Dawagandist” which of course, you yourself have came up with through the interpolation of words.
Tell me Br Hamzah, how am I or any body else who read these comments of yours for that matters can take all of your allegations seriously when you yourself have proven to have this reputation of cooking up nonentities just so to win yourself in the argument? The one who is doing the bull-dozing now is actually you.
Let me list a couple of them out here just to name a few in case you forgot.
You said that:
“Sola fide is not a major contention between RCs and Protestants at all! You are deliberately making a mountain out of a molehill, a perceived issue from a non-issue.â€
You have made a statement that is OBVIOUSLY NOT THE TRUTH as how I have FACTUALLY pointed out. Only after I have pointed out to you, you then said differently. This is a proof that you are very much being inconsistent with your own answers and at the same time, trying to hide the truth!
You also said that:
“Both RCs and Evangelicals have strong ecumenical movements within them that have built solid bridges of unity, collaboration and brotherhood binding us together.â€
Once again, you have proven yourself to be unreliable in giving an honest answer with this statement! You have been very much silence about this after I told you that apparently the Pope has just burnt those solid bridges of yours with the NEUTRAL FACTS presented below.
Pope: Only One “True†Church
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/10/world/main3037922.shtml
Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288841,00.html
Well Brother Hamzah, please do not hide behind the shallow pretext that “you have answered enough and you are not going to answer me anymore” in trying to escape this. It just proves to your immaturity in facing the situation.
I shall not say further for I have reached my objective in here. It has been my intention from the beginning to have you present Christianity in an honest way but you have obviously failed to do so by eluding and diverting questions that can expose the truth. The comments we have here have successfully pointed out and prove to the readers of this point of mine.
I do not wish to waste anymore of my time in here with someone who is obviously very much not capable of handling the truth. I guess that is just how the culture is for you. I will not leave you empty handed though with your baseless allegation. It will be lengthy for such a topic to discuss here and in the first place, this is after all a Christian’s site and all questions should be reserved for Christian’s topics which is what I exactly did, asking you regarding Christianity. Having said that, I cordially invite you or anyone here who have questions on Islam to join this forum:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=10
Please do so Br Hamzah if you really want to engage in a discussion regarding to your questions, if you are not intimidated enough to join in that is.
Salam to you and all
Muhammad
PS. I agree with you totally on one thing. The Bible is NOT like the Quran. Unlike the Bible, every word you read in the Quran are in its ORIGINAL language. And there is only ONE version of the Quran. Any true Muslims be it they are English, German or Chinese, we can recite the Quran in one unified voice. The Bible on the other hand is NOT in its ORIGINAL language for it can be found in English, German, Malay, French and what have you and it comes with different versions that there is no way you can recite it in one unified voice like the Quran. And before the modern languages, the Bible was in Latin and before Latin it was in different texts of the Greek Septuagint translations and many others. And best of all, Jesus did not even speak in any of these languages.
Salam Muhamamad,
Hamzah just can’t answer you and know nothing about Christianity, just like any other blind follower. He found new interest in bashing Islam. I replied him but it may take time to appear on ‘What is love’ post.
Syukir
Shalom Hamzah, Emmanuel & other ex-muslims.
My bro in Christ ! It is so great that I found this site.
I am actually a Malaysian but have migrated overseas,
the main reason which is I can’t stand the oppression and
non religious freedom in that country. I loved my country
but it saddens me things is getting to where it is now.
It is really sad that such lack of human tolerance and
freedom exists in this 21st century.
Anyway, I have been saved for more than 10 years. I join
an Indonesian church here (we also have singaporeans,
mexicans, fillipinos, chinese and indians). All nations
basically worshiping God together. We also sing
Indonesian praise songs using the word Allah, what
beautiful songs the Indonesian write, it’s truly amazing.
“Oh betapa indahnya, dan betapa eloknya,
bila saudara seiman, hidup dalam persatuan”.
Hope we can get in touch, I will be posting more.
In Christ alone
Jay
Howdy ya Syukri,
What comments?? You yourself are just another BLIND FOLLOWER of a bankrupt religion called islam.
Now your desperation forces you to malign me as someone knowing nothing about Christianity…HAHAHAHAHAHAA!! What a joke, LOLLLing!
So you suppose that you as a missionary muslim, attacking and bashing Christiantiy at every opportunity, know THE AUTHENTIC CHRISTIANITY Or the true Gospel??!! LOL!
You dupe yourself, ya Syukri, for buying into typical islamist anti-Christian / Bible / Gospel POLEMICS and calling THAT real Christianity..!
The same goes for Muhammad who is another Christian-bashing polemicist, but also shown to be bankrupt when he cannot respond intelligently at all to my straightforward, open question!
You TWO will do well to get a proper education of the Bible and real Christianity by reading and studying scholarly books about the Bible and reading the Bible itself, instead of drinking from the poisoned wells of the likes of Deedat, Zakir Naik and other misled Christian-bashers!
Also, go read the true stories of ex-Muslims who have embraced the TRUE Gospel like those I already posted PLUS this one below – the son of an Arab terrorist leader :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roC2dHJiVyo
He is real, flesh and blood EX-Muslim, and moreso – the son of islamist terrorist leader and founder of that organisation! He is not afraid to show his true face on Youtube.
Wake up, ya Syukri and Muhammad, dawagandists! BEFORE it is too late and you both be thrown into eternal HELL-Fire.
Wassallaam Bro.Hamzah.
Shalom again,
Btw, there’s a lot of Iranians where I am staying and
a lot of them have become our family in Christ.
There’s lots of Iranian churches coming up and
one Iranian I know that is ex-muslim is so on fire
for the Lord it is an inspiration to us all.
He told us that there’s an increasing number of
Iranian becoming Christian everyday in Iran,
especially among the youths. They form underground
churches everywhere, and with what is happening
in Iran now, big changes is coming. People are
tired and hate the Islamic law and oppression
and want change. A better Iran is coming.
I hope this will happen in Malaysia one day.
Praise the Lord !
In Christ
Jay
Hi there and warm Shaloms to you Jay!
Many thanks for the affirmations about Iranians turning to the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation around the World.
That is actually really quite true. Ayatollah Khomenei did a real great favour to these ex-Muslims by showing them the real face of Islam, and today the world is witnessing their reactions, not just oiutside Iran,m but also INside it!
Other islamic countries where this is happening in huge numbers are: Algeria and Tunisia!
Why I mention this is simply becos’ these are all ARAB states, and ARAB muslims themselves are debunking and turning their backs on Islam, by the THOUSANDS!
The Berber arabs especially are finding a new day in the light of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. There are so many churches comprising only of Ex-Muslims, across Tunisia, that the ‘Muslim’ government cannot do anything against them, Hallelujah!!
This is just the beginning, the BEST in this trend is yet to come, just watch the work of God taking place world-wide.
Keep up your good work and constructive comments, Jay, and look forward to interacting more with you, again.
Wassalaam, Hamzah.
Shalom bro Hamzah and others, yes I heard that the region in North Africa
is one the the fastest place where Muslims are finding the true faith, together
with China and the middle east. Thousands are saved in China everyday, the
numbers are staggering, never before seen in our history.
Anyway, found some interesting read regarding Prophet Mo. Sad to see
almost a billion believers following this false prophet that approve of rape.
And more sad than that is most muslim never even study their holy book
to see for themselves how lost they are.
The Myth:
Muhammad Would Never Approve of Rape
The Truth:
It is against Islam to rape Muslim women, but Muhammad actually encouraged the rape of women captured in battle. This hadith provides the context for the Qur’anic verse (4:24):
The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.” (Abu Dawud 2150)
Actually, as the hadith indicates, it wasn’t Muhammad, but “Allah the Exalted” who told the men to rape the women in front of their husbands, which is all the more reason not to think of Islam as being the same as other religion.
There are several hadith in which Muhammad is asked for his opinion on how women should be raped following their capture. This pertains to an episode in which his men were reluctant to devalue their new slaves for later resale by getting them pregnant. Muhammad was asked about coitus interruptus in particular:
“O Allah’s Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?” The Prophet said, “Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.†(Bukhari 34:432)
As indicate, the prophet of Islam did not mind his men raping the women, provided they ejaculated within the bodies of their victims.
As one might imagine, Muhammad’s obvious approval of raping women captured in battle, and his own personal participation as recorded in many places, is of intense inconvenience to the Muslim apologists of our time. For this reason, some of them attempt to explain away these many episodes and Qur’anic references to sex with captives by pretending that these are cases in which women have fled bad marriages and sought refuge with the Muslims. Some apologists even refer to them as “wives,” even though the Qur’an makes a clear distinction between “those whom thy right hand possesses” and true wives (see Sura 33:50).
Beyond the desperation of the 21st century apologist however, there is absolutely nothing in the historical text that supports this rosy revision of Muslim history. The women of the Banu Mustaliq were sold into slavery following their rape. In fact, female slaves were traded like any other simple commodity by Muhammad and his Muslims (Ibn Ishaq 693).
More importantly, by definition a “captured” woman is not one who is fleeing her husband. She is fleeing her captor (ie. the Muslim slave raider). This hadith describes a typical raid, in which the women and children are captured as they are attempting to flee the attacking Muslims:
“…and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children [escaping in the distance]. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along†(Sahin Muslim 4345)
The Muslim narrator (who happens to be Muhammad’s adopted son) sees the women trying to escape (following the massacre of their men) and cuts off their route by shooting an arrow into their path. These aren’t women trying to seek refuge with the Muslims. They are trying to avoid capture by the Muslim.
The same hadith goes on to recount that Muhammad personally demanded one of the captured women for his own use:
I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.†(Sahih Muslim 4345)
The prophet of Islam and his companions used war to collect women for personal sexual use and for trading. Unless she was arbitrarily declared as someone’s wife, the woman became a sex slave. In no case was her fate tied to anything that she had personally done, nor was she given a choice about her future.
More myths of prophet Mo can be find here
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-home.htm
Let the truth be exposed
Hamzah,
Read my latest comment at ‘ what is love’ post. See if you can see the reality of Christianity.
Syukri
To saved by lord,
Thanks for your fretful comment about Prophet Muhammad for the world to see the hatred of Christians against Muslim who protected them throughout history in their reign during caliphate, and in Andalus and Ottoman empire, and whose life was spared by Salahuddin Al Ayyubi ( Saladin ) during crusade war although Christians have massacred Muslim, children and women, old and young ( including Jews ) when they captured Jerusalem earlier.
Bat Yeor, a jewish historian, stated regarding the treatment of non-Muslim in Muslim Land
ehumanization of the dhimmi ( christian and Jews ) was very uncommon, and generally the all were treated as friends and neighbors. Various forms of physical abuse were very uncommon and a lot LESS than in Europe during the middle ages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dhimmi:_Jews_and_Christians_Under_Islam
why you are so angry with Prophet Muhammad? Is that because we have ridiculed Prophet Isa Al Masih? In fact, we revere him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus
We did not ridicule Isa, did we?. That’s why you are so jelous of us. We achieved what you achieved not.
Syukri
My poor, misguided Syukri,
Just because the scholar Bat Yeor is a ‘JEWISH’ historian – and a GOOD one at that!
She also documents the many inhumane treatments of non-muslims under islam, that are all extremely dehumanizing.
Also, the Quran makes despicable and vile claims against non-muslims, as in sura at-tauba 9/28 , THAT all the non-muslims are NAJASUN, ie.filth.
Furthermore, in sura 9/29, the Muslims are commanded by the Quran to attack THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK – Christians and Jews, simply because THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM ie.muslims! To avoid that, they have to pay a kind of protection money – called JIZYA, to the muslim rulers to survive such ATROCITIES!
Inhuman attacks, labelling other human beings AS FILTH – NAJIS, ETC, these are proof that the Quran promotes HATE speech and VIOLENT tyranical dehumanization…to say the least! Just because they are not muslims, is proof that islam is never a truthful, loving of love and peace.
Such a religion can never be a true ‘universal religion for all of mankind’ and so its no surprise that websites like http://www.answering-islam.org is doing such a great job of exposing this false and misogynic ideology called islam.
No, we are never jealous of Muhammad, or of you!! LOLLLING! WHY ever on Earth should we be??!!
We actually PITY you all, that in light of all the foregoing, you are forced -by the Hadith for example, to follow BLINDLY, the pathetic example of Muhammad, whom you slavishly call ‘prophet/nabi’!
Even that, so many muslims have become Hadith-rejectors, and form the ‘Anti-hadith muslims’!
Also, one of the factors DIVIDING AND TEARING UP the muslim world, are the 2 DIVERGENT AND CONFLICTING collections and versions of Hadith subscribed by the Sunnis and the Shias! This theological schism has caused violent clashes between Sunnis and Shias world-wide.
We cannot see any truth in such an ideology’, only death and more destruction, from the source!
Wasalaam, Hamzah.
.
Shalom to all,
To Shukri and other muslim, do not read pass this.
Like on the Bible in Malaysia, this is for non-muslim only.
Father Zakaria Botros on “The perverse sexual habits of the Prophet”
Life TV’s Father Zakaria Botros recently ran a show dedicated to discussing the question of morality and how it is—or should be—one of the hallmarks of “prophethood.†At the start, he posed the focal question of the show: “Was Muhammad the prophet a moral man—the most upright man, worthy of being emulated by the world?â€
He opened the show by relying on an Ibn Taymiyya quote, which evaluated the signs of prophethood. Taymiyya asserted that there are many false-prophets, such as Musailima “the Liar,†a contemporary of Muhammad. Taymiyya concluded that many of these so-called prophets are, in fact, “possessed,†and that the only way to determine the authenticity of any prophet is by examining his biography (sira) and deeds, and see if he be found worthy of the title.
Being that this is the first of several episodes devoted to examining the concepts of morality and prophethood (with the notion that the former reinforces the latter), the theme for this particular episode was “purity†(tahara): “Was Muhammad a ‘pure’ man?”—in this context, a question concerning his sexual mores (or lack thereof).
After the preliminaries, Botros looked at the camera and gave a stern warning: “This episode is for adults only! I am going to discuss many things that make me blush for shame, so please: have the women and children leave the room.â€
He then asked Muslims watching to keep in mind the question “Is this the prophet I follow?†as he delineated some of Muhammad’s sexual habits.
First, from the Koran, Botros read verses unequivocally stating that Muhammad is the paragon of all virtue and morality, such as “And most surely you [Muhammad] conform (yourself) to sublime morality [68: 4].†He further quoted the ulema, such as Ibn Kathir, all insisting that Muhammad was the “Noblest of all humanity, and the greatest of prophets.â€
Botros and his ex-Muslim cohost—the priest had insisted that it be a man for this particular show, lest he be too ashamed to delineate Muhammad’s sexual habits—discussed Koran 4:3, which “limits†a Muslim’s wives to four, plus “what your right hands possess,†that is, slave-girls.
That was apparently not good enough for Muhammad, asserted Botros; an entire verse had to be “revealed†justifying more women for him (Koran 33:50). In fact, Father Botros has carefully compiled a list of all the women—66 are known—to have had sexual relations with Muhammad.
Botros said that was only normal: according to Sirat Al-Halabi, Muhammad can have a woman no matter what, even against her will; and if Muhammad desired a married woman, her husband would have had to divorce her. According to Ibn Sa’ad, who wrote another authoritative biographical account of Muhammad, “The prophet did not die till all women were permitted him†(see Kitab Al Tabaqat Al Kubra, v.8, 194).
The co-host, rather abruptly, interjected – “What of all those rumors that Muhammad exhibited homosexual tendencies?â€
Botros dropped his face in his hands and mumbled, “So you still insist we discuss that?†The co-host was adamant, saying it was for Muslims’ own good to know everything.
Thus Botros, after profusely apologizing to his Muslim viewers, saying how embarrassing this was for him, declared: “Look! We’re merely readers here, bringing up what we have read in Islam’s own books! If Muslims don’t like it, they should go and burn these books.â€
The first anecdote discussed by the priest revolved around a hadith that, while some ulema say is “weak,†is, nonetheless according to Botros, present in 44 Islamic books—including some highly respected collections, such as Sunan Bayhaqi and Al Halabi.
According to this hadith, a man named Zahir, who used to declare that “the prophet loves me,†said that one day Muhammad crept unawares behind him and put him in a bear-hug. Zahir, alarmed, yelled, “Get off me!†After turning his head and discovering that it was Muhammad, he stopped struggling and proceeded to “push his back into the prophet’s chest—prayers and blessings upon him.”
Another curious hadith contained in Sunan Bayhaqi and which traces to Sunan Abu Dawud (one of the six canonical hadith collections), has Muhammad lifting up his shirt for a man who proceeded to kiss his entire torso, “from his bellybutton to his armpits.â€
Botros looked casually at the camera and said, “Imagine if the sheikh of Al Azhar [nearest Muslim equivalent to the pope] went around lifting his shirt for men to kiss his torso†(he proceeded to make smacking kissing noises, for effect).
Said the co-host: “Surely there’s more?â€
Botros: “Indeed there is. No less than 20 Islamic sources—such as the hadiths of Ahmad bin Hanbal—relay that Muhammad used to suck on the tongues of boys and girls”…
Shalom everyone,
Again Syukri and all muslim, do not read this.
Like on Malaysian Bible, this is for non-muslim only.
Father Zakaria Botros on “The perverse sexual habits of the Prophet,” Part II
This being the continuation of Fr. Botros’ examination of Muhammad’s sexual morality (or lack thereof). See here for Part I. Last we left the priest and his co-host, the former noted that, “No less than 20 Islamic sources—such as the hadiths of Ahmad bin Hanbal—relay that Muhammad used to suck on the tongues of boys and girls.â€
Botros proceeded to read aloud from various sources, such as a hadith relayed by Abu Hurreira (deemed an extremely reliable narrator), where Muhammad sucked on the tongues of his cousin (and future caliph) Ali’s two boys, Hassan and Hussein—they of revered Shia memory.
Next he read a hadith of Muhammad sucking on the tongue of his own daughter, Fatima. Fr Botros also added that the Arabic word for “suck†(muss) cannot, as some apologists insist, mean anything but “suck.†“After all,†added the perspicacious priest, “this is the same word used when discussing Muhammad’s ‘activities’ with his wives, especially his beloved child-bride, Aisha.â€
With an extremely disgusted look on his face, Botros turned towards the camera and said: “Dear lady, imagine, for a moment, coming home to find your husband sucking on your daughter’s tongue? What would you do? It’s even worse: it’s your prophet—the most “morally upright†man, a man to be emulated by the world! A man who on record used to go around sucking the tongues of his wives, his daughters, and young boys: Are these the activities of the man described in the Koran as being the pinnacle of moral perfection?â€
Cohost: “More!â€
“Muhammad would not sleep until he kissed his daughter Fatima and nuzzled his face in her bosom [the priest provided the appropriate sources]. Dear lady! what would you say to your husband sleeping with his face in your daughter’s breast—is that the height of morality?!â€
At this point, Fr Botros, looking downcast, began apologizing profusely, saying he could only imagine how all these anecdotes must be troubling for Muslims, to which the co-host reassured him: “It’s not your fault, father, but rather the fault of those Muslims recording these vile incidences. Either way: Muslims must know. More please.â€
Botros continued reading more revealing hadiths, including one from the Musnad of Ahmad bin Hanbal, which records Muhammad seeing a 2-3 year old girl in her mother’s arms. Muhammad was so “impressed†by her that he said, “By Allah, if this girl reaches marrying age and I am still alive, I will surely marry her.â€
Another hadith goes on to say that Muhammad ended up dying before this particular girl reached marriage age, to which the by now vexed priest, unable to contain himself, exclaimed, “Awwww! Poor prophet! He missed one!â€
Botros then told viewers to keep this last hadith in mind, for “context,†as he read another hadith from the Sunan of Bin Said, which records Muhammad saying “I hugged so-and-so when she was a child and found that I greatly desired her.â€
“What prophet is this you follow?!†cried the outraged Coptic priest. “Where is his morality? This is the man that Muslims follow slavishly? Use your minds!â€
It was late in the night, yet Fr Botros was not done cataloging his findings regarding the prophet’s “sexual†habits (these shows are an hour and a half long). So, when he moved on to a hadith depicting Muhammad lying next to a dead woman in her grave, as well as pointing to hadith categories called “intercourse with a dead woman,†I happily turned off the satellite and called it a night—till this moment, as I am (somewhat reluctantly) revisiting my notes to prepare this report.
There you go. Know the true prophet Mo.
Astaghafirullah, astaga…..blahblablah will be what our friends Syukri and Muhammad will be exclaiming when they read your very factual posts!!
-)))
Kudos, ‘Saved By the Lord!’ THE WHOLE WORLD needs to be exposed to the filth and depth of perversity that Muhamad the founder of Islam sank down into indulged in – especially when he became more & more like an absolute ruler among the Arabs of his time!
VERY Sadly, Muhamad became very perverted man toward his end. This is confirmation of the saying – POWER CORRUPTS And ABSOLUTE POWER, CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY!!
And did he become so corrupt, morally and ethically..perverted !!
Father Butros asked a very good and extremely relevant question. “WHAT kind of a prophet is muhammad..??”
He slept with a dead woman’s corpse, he sucked the tougues of young kids and girsl especially, he taught ridaat al kabir -Adult Suckling, and practised pedophilia with the child-bride Aishah.
The VALID Hadith where ‘prophet’ muhamad endorses and instructs women to suckle adult men IS HERE:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/008.smt.html
And muhammad used Allah’s name to rubber-stamp on what he himself (Muhamad) wanted to fulfil his own desires.
Even his favorite wife Aisha says that ‘Allah hurries’ to please Muhd as confirmed here:
Sahih Bukhari tells us that Allah hurries to please Muhammad (Sahih Bukhari, 7.62.48): Narrated Hisham’s father: Khaula bint Hakim was one of those ladies who presented themselves to the Prophet for marriage. ‘Aisha said, “Doesn’t a lady feel ashamed for presenting herself to a man?” But when the Verse: “(O Muhammad) You may postpone (the turn of) any of them (your wives) that you please,’ (33.51) was revealed, ” ‘Aisha said, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! I do not see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you.’”
Likewise, all those references that Father Butros unveiled -on the above perversities of Muhamad, are all from valid Hadiths and from Quranic verses. So nothing was fabricated of made up by anybody!
How can we follow such a ‘prophet’, when morally, ethically AND in every other way, he is inferior to the Lord JESUS CHRIST!
Jesus is INDEED and truly the Way, the Truth AND THE Life, for the whole wide world.
Br.Hamzah.
Dear Hamzah,
I agree with you about Pro Mo.These are verses from Bible for us to enjoy the true word of God to say that our faith is more superior in sexual pervertism! Let’s be Christian so that we can enjoy our sexuality and be happy.
GE 19:30-38 Lot’s daughters have sexual intercourse with him while he is drunk and both become pregnant by their father.
GE 24:2-9, 47:29 “… put your hand under my thigh, and I will make you swear by the Lord ….” (Note: This means “put your hand under my testicles,” which is the manner in which oaths were taken at the time; “testament,” “testify,” and “testicle” have the same root.)
GE 29:16-30 Jacob marries both Leah and her sister Rachel. He has children by both Leah and Rachel’s maid Bilhah, but Rachel remains barren. Due apparently to Rachel’s generosity to her husband, the Lord eventually allows Rachel to conceive.
GE 34:1-2 Shechem defiles Dinah.
GE 34:13-29 Hamor, his son, and the men of their village agree to be circumcised so as to be allowed to marry the daughters of the Israelites. On the third day, “when they were sore,” the Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of the village, and plunder their wealth, taking their wives and children, thus getting revenge for the defiling of Dinah.
GE 35:22 (KJV) “Reuben went and lay with Bilhah, his fathers concubine.”
GE 38:9 Onan “spills his seed” on the ground rather than fulfill his obligation to his widowed sister-in-law to father a child by her.
GE 38:13-19 Tamar plays the role of a harlot in order to have sexual intercourse with her father-in-law. She conceives and twins are born.
GE 39:7-23 The wife of Joseph’s master tries to get Joseph to go to bed with her. He refuses, and flees leaving his “garment in her hand.” She claims that Joseph tried to rape her, and Joseph ends up imprisoned.
EX 20:26 “Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.”
LE 15:16-19 (KJV) “And if any man’s seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even. The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even. And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean ….”
LE 21:20, 22:24 (References to testicles, or “stones” in the KJV.)
NU 31:17-18 “… all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” (Note: How did they determine which girls were virgins, and what did they do with them after they kept them alive for themselves? This is not a pretty picture.)
NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty of which thirty-two are set aside as a tribute for the Lord.
DT 21:10-14 With the Lord’s approval, the Israelites are allowed to kidnap “beautiful women” from the enemy camp to be their trial wives. If, after having sexual relations, a man has “no delight” in his wife, he can simply let her go.
DT 23:1 (KJV) “He that is wounded in the stones [testicles], or hath his privy member [penis] cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.”
DT 28:15, 30 If you do not obey the voice of the Lord, the Lord will cause another man to “lie with” your wife-to-be.
JS 5:3 “… the Hill of Foreskins.”
JG 8:30-31 Gideon had many wives as well as a concubine.
JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man’s house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest’s concubine (or wife): “Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing.” The man’s concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.
JG 21:11-12 “This is what you shall do; every male and every woman that has lain with man you shall utterly destroy. And they found … four hundred young virgins who had not known man by lying with him; and they brought them to the camp ….” (Again, how did they determine which girls were virgins? This is not a pretty picture.)
JG 21:14-23 The 400 virgins captured above prove to be insufficient, so the Benjaminites hide in the vineyards and kidnap “the daughters of Shiloh” as they come out to dance and celebrate.
SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts Philistines with tumors in their “secret parts.”
SA 18:27 So that David might be allowed to marry the king’s daughter, the king asks David to bring him 100 Philistine foreskins. David does the job right and brings the king not 100, but 200, foreskins of murdered Philistines.
SA 25:22, 25:34, 1KI 14:10, 16:10-11, 21:21, 2KI 9:8 (KJV) “… him that pisseth ….”
SA 19:24 “And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night.”
SA 3:7 (KJV) “Wherefore hast thou gone in unto [a euphemism for sexual intercourse] my fathers concubine?”
SA 5:13, 20:3 David had many concubines.
SA 6:14, 16, 20-23 David dances and exposes himself to his maids. (His wife, Michal rebukes him for having done so, and as a consequence she is made barren.)
SA 12:11-12 The Lord is going to punish David for his sin by taking his wives and causing his neighbor to have sexual relations with them in public.
SA 13:1-14 King David’s son, Amnon, rapes his half-sister, Tamar.
SA 16:22 Absalom “went into his father’s concubines” in the sight of all Israel.
KI 1:1-4 David was old, and although covered with clothes, could not get warm. A beautiful, young virgin is brought in to be his concubine and nurse. But alas, he was so old and infirm that he “knew her not.”
KI 11:3 Solomon (allegedly the wisest man ever) had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
KI 6:29 “So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him,’ but she had hidden him.”
KI 18:27, IS 36:12 (KJV) “… eat their own dung and drink their own piss.” (Note: Although correctly translated according to the oldest Hebrew manuscripts, piss and pisseth have been re-translated to something more “godly” in all versions since the KJV.)
CH 11:21 Rehoboam had eighteen wives and sixty concubines.
ES 2:2-17 King Ahasuerus holds a sexual contest with “fair young virgins” to pick a new Queen (after having been spurned by Queen Vashti).
PR 5:19 (KJV) “… Let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.”
SO 1:13 “My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh, that lies between my breasts.”
SO 2:3 “I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.”
SO 2:6, 8:3 “His left hand is under my head, and his right hand embraces me.”
SO 2:16, 6:3 “My lover is mine and I am his. He browses among the lilies.”
SO 4:5, 7:3 “Your two breasts are like two fawns ….”
SO 5:4 (KJV) “My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him.”
SO 7:1-2 “… the joints of your thighs are like jewels ….”
SO 7:7-9 “You are stately as a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its branches. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine ….”
SO 8:10 “… and my breasts were like towers.”
IS 3:17 “The Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will uncover their secret parts.”
IS 13:15 “Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their … wives will be ravished.”
IS 20:2-4 The Lord himself apparently commands his servant to go naked for three years.
IS 57:8 “Behind your doors and doorpost … you uncovered your bed, you climbed into it and opened it wide; you made a pact with those whose beds you love, and you looked on their nakedness.”
LA 4:21 “… thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked.”
EZ 4:12 (KJV) “And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread ….”
EZ 4:15 (KJV) “… I have given thee cows dung for mans dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.”
EZ 16:7 “… You grew up and … arrived at full maidenhood; your breasts were formed … yet you were naked and bare.”
EZ 16:8 “Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine.”
EZ 16:22 “… you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.”
EZ 16:36 “… your shame was laid bare and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotries with your lovers ….”
EZ 16:37 “Therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you took pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness.”
EZ 16:39 “… they will strip you of your clothes, … and leave you naked and bare.”
EZ 23:3 “They played the harlot in Egypt; they played the harlot in their youth; there were their breasts fondled and their virgin bosoms handled.” Or, as the KJV puts it: “they bruised the teats of their virginity.”
EZ 23:8 (KJV) “… in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.”
EZ 23:10 “They stripped her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword.”
EZ 23:17 (KJV) “And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them ….”
EZ 23:18 (KJV) “So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: ….”
EZ 23:20-21 (RSV) “Yet she increased her harlotry … and doted on her paramours there, whose members [i.e., sexual organs] were like those of asses and whose issue was like that of horses. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts.”
EZ 23:29 (KJV) “… and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.”
EZ 23:34 “You shall … pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts.”
HO 1:2 (KJV) “And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom.’”
HO 2:2 (KJV) “… let her … put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts ….”
HO 2:3 “Otherwise I will strip her naked and make her as bare as the day she was born.”
HO 13:16 “They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”
AM 2:16 “‘Even the bravest warriors will flee naked on that day,’ declares the Lord.”
MI 1:8 “I will go stripped and naked.”
MI 3:2-3 “… who pluck off their skin …, and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.”
NA 3:5 ” I am against you,’ says the Lord … , and will lift up your skirts over your face; I will show the nations your nakedness and kingdoms your shame.’”
HA 2:15 “Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.”
MA 2:3 The Lord says that he will spread dung upon the faces of the priests.
MK 14:51-52 A young man discards his clothing and flees naked.
JN 21:7 (KJV) “Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fishers coat unto him, for he was naked, and did cast himself into the sea.”
AC 19:13-16 Seven Jewish exorcists are overpowered by a man with a demon and flee naked and wounded.
RE 16:15 When Jesus comes again, he will come like a thief in the night so that those who do not have their clothes [on] will go naked and be shamefully exposed.
RE 17:16 “They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.”
True Infidel,
You’re just another desperado having fantastic delusions and misquoting the Scriptures like a beheaded chicken running around with nothing to show except your own stupidity, this time REAL stupidity.
Majority of those verses are not only irrelevant, but are quoted out of context and so are totally mindless, as you are when you try to mock Christians with such an act.LOL!
NONE of those verses you misquoted you will be able attribute to the Lord Jesus Christ, anyway.
Unlike the vulgar misdeeds and suggestions of Muhammad the founder of Islam, who promoted the adulterous and opportunistic idea of redaat al-kabir -Adult Suckling AMONG GROWN-UPS (he made and did other more similar things, too):
Book 008, Number 3424:
‘ A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be eupon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: SUCKLE HIM. She said: How can I suckle him as HE IS A GROWN-UP MAN? Allah’s Messenger smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man. ‘Amr has made this addition in his narration that he participated in the Battle of Badr and in the narration of Ibn ‘Umar : Allah’s Messenger LAUGHED.
——————————————————————————–
Book 008, Number 3425:
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (purbety) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeare
Perhaps you find this idea tittilating, so you should then convert to islam to enjoy this advantage…::-))))!!
Hamzah.
Howdy Muhamamd,
This is in answer to your stupendous claims for your defective Quran, you made on June 29 – in your ‘PS’ above:
PS. I agree with you totally on one thing. The Bible is NOT like the Quran. Unlike the Bible, every word you read in the Quran are in its ORIGINAL language.
Hamzah: WHAT a JOKE! Your Quran today is NOT the original one, far and away! the THIRD muslim Caliph, Uthman-ordered the destruction of ALL the existing different versions of the Quran during his reign.
This is recorded in the Hadith ‘sahih:
“Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the Qur’anic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, TO BE BURNT! (Sahih Bukhari 6.510)
After these copies were sent out, Zaid b. Thabit recalled a verse which was missing from it:
“A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur’an and I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima-bin-Thabit al Ansari.” (Sahih Bukhari 6.510).
That verse is the famous Sura al-Ahzab 33:23.
The event may mean :
that verse was not in the collection of Hafsa, contradicting Muslim claims that the Uthmanic recension merely made public the Qur’an written down during Abu Bakr’s time,
or,
that Zaid overlooked the verse while copying.
“And there is only ONE version of the Quran. Any true Muslims be it they are English, German or Chinese, we can recite the Quran in one unified voice.”
NOT before the revision of the Quran by Zaid bin Thabit, and his Editorial Committee of 5 people!
THOSE Original ‘Originals’ of the Quran were ALL DESTROYED BY BURNING by order of Khalifah Uthman. WHY? They must contain so many differences and contradictions that Uthman HAD TO DESTROY THEM All!
This hadith Confirms that the Quran had to RE-WRITTEN by this Editorial Committee commissioned by the Caliph!
So, forget about trying to tell us the LIES that today’s Quran is ‘original’ when it is very clearly NOT.
“The Bible on the other hand is NOT in its ORIGINAL language for it can be found in English, German, Malay, French and what have you and it comes with different versions that there is no way you can recite it in one unified voice like the Quran.”
This is an IGNORANT point and proves your shallow and abysmal ignorance of the facts!
The BIble was never meant for RECITING! Thats another difference from your quran. Jesus Christ never gave the Injil to His followers for reciting purposes. You are forcing your false quranic construct upon the Bible’s usage, most ignorantly!
” And before the modern languages, the Bible was in Latin and before Latin it was in different texts of the Greek Septuagint translations and many others. And best of all, Jesus did not even speak in any of these languages.
PROVE that! Another false assertion that is nothing more than desperate polemics. How do you know for sure that Jesus ‘did not even speak in any of these languages..’
Get this! In Jesus’ day, the Roman Empire had already long established Greek as the universal language of the empire, it was widely spoken in all its colonies. The Lord Jesus Christ was from Galillee in Israel, this was a GENTILE region on the nation. Obviously, the Gentile population spoke their non-Jewish tongues, including Greek – the national language of the Empire.
Many informed Scholars tell us that Jesus spoke multiple languages like Hebrew, Greek and His own dialect of Aramaic.
I rather have a scripture that I can fully understand and apply to life, than something that is impossible to translate or even interpret meaningfully, like the Quran.
The Quran is believed in just BLINDLY, without proper understanding and meaningful interpretation. It actually has hundreds of errors in grammar, syntax and even vocabulary in its original language Arabic! No wonder the ulema claim that it is so-called ‘untranslatable’.
But that is just another lame excuse to cover up the pathetic incoherence and inconsistencies of the Quran.
And. like I said, the Quran cannot stand by itself, and it has to be qualified and guided by the Hadith to clarifiy HOW TO APPLY its injunctions to life, practically!
And the so-called ‘valid’ Hadiths themselves are so full of nonsense and irrational teachings that even today, Muslims are abandoning it altogether – Just see (www.submission.org).
What the Sunni groups CLAIM AS the so-called ‘Valid Hadiths’, are ALL REJECTED AND Thrown out by their Shia conterparts TOTALLY – as COMPLETELY INVALID, WORTHLESS!
The Shia Muslims have their own ‘Valid Hadiths’ that they favour, and THESE in turn are THROWN OUT 100% by the Sunni Muslims – AS Worthless!
This is a great JOKE, truly!
Wasalaam, Hamzah.
True Infidel – the true NUT-CASE in in these posts,
Your posts of flowing Bible texts prove ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, since your action proves only your drunken state of mind stupefied with the desire with trying to debunk the Bible and Christianity at all cost!
IF all these verses amount to anything at all, then Christian theologians. textual critics and reputable scholars who have studied these texts would be the first to abandon the Bible and their Christian faith, but there are thousands of such scholars who remain strongly and firmly committed to the authenticity and credibility of the Christian Bible.
May I bring you back to the real point of my reply to your earlier post, that you are simply incapable to ascribe any pof those words to the lips of the Lord Jesus Christ – Sayidina Isa al-Masih, when the very opposite can be sourced from the words of the prophet of Islam – Muhammad himself:
So, I do repeat, True Infidel, you’re just another desperado having fantastic delusions and misquoting the Scriptures like a beheaded chicken running around with nothing to show except your own stupidity, this time REAL stupidity.
Majority of those verses are not only irrelevant, but are quoted out of context and so are totally mindless, as you are when you try to mock Christians with such an act.LOL!
NONE of those verses you misquoted you will be able attribute to the Lord Jesus Christ, anyway.
Unlike the vulgar misdeeds and suggestions of Muhammad the founder of Islam, who promoted the adulterous and opportunistic idea of redaat al-kabir -Adult Suckling AMONG GROWN-UPS (he made and did other more similar things, too):
Book 008, Number 3424:
‘ A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be eupon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: SUCKLE HIM. She said: How can I suckle him as HE IS A GROWN-UP MAN? Allah’s Messenger smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man. ‘Amr has made this addition in his narration that he participated in the Battle of Badr and in the narration of Ibn ‘Umar : Allah’s Messenger LAUGHED.
——————————————————————————–
Book 008, Number 3425:
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (purbety) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeare
Perhaps you find this idea tittilating, so you should then convert to islam to enjoy this advantage…::-))))!! More likely – YOU ARE A FOLLOWER OF ISLAM, and its deluded, perverted founder, Muhammad…ie.monkey see, monkey do likewise..!
Hamzah.
WHY BIBLE IS THE CORRUPTED BOOK AND THE WORK OF MAN?
The Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize. For instance, Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors. The flood story is really two interwoven stories that contradict each other on how many of each kind of animal are to be brought into the Ark–is it one pair each or seven pairs each of the “clean” ones? The Gospel of John disagrees with the other three Gospels on the activities of Jesus Christ (how long had he stayed in Jerusalem–a couple of days or a whole year?) and all four Gospels contradict each other on the details of Jesus Christ’s last moments and resurrection. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the genealogy of Jesus Christ’s father; though both agree that Joseph was not his real father. Repetitions and contradictions are understandable for a hodgepodge collection of documents, but not for some carefully constructed treatise, reflecting a well-thought-out plan.
Of the various methods I’ve seen to “explain” these:
1. “That is to be taken metaphorically.” In other words, what is written is not what is meant. I find this entertaining, especially for those who decide what ISN’T to be taken as other than the absolute WORD OF GOD–which just happens to agree with the particular thing they happen to want…
2. “There was more there than….” This is used when one verse says “there was a” and another says “there was b,” so they decide there was “a” AND “b”–which is said nowhere. This makes them happy, since it doesn’t say there WASN’T “a b.” But it doesn’t say there was “a b little green martians.” This is often the same crowd that insists theirs is the ONLY possible interpretation (i.e., only “a”) and the only way. I find it entertaining they they don’t mind adding to verses.
3. “It has to be understood in context.” I find this amusing because it comes from the same crowd that likes to push likewise extracted verses that support their particular view. Often it is just one of the verses in the contradictory set which is supposed to be taken as THE TRUTH when, if you add more to it, it suddenly becomes “out of context.” How many of you have gotten JUST John 3:16 (taken out of all context) thrown at you?
4. “There was just a copying/writing error.” This is sometimes called a “transcription error,” as in where one number was meant and an incorrect one was copied down. Or what was “quoted” wasn’t really what was said, but just what the author thought was said. And that’s right–I’m not disagreeing with events, I’m disagreeing with what is WRITTEN. Which is apparently agreed that it is incorrect. This is an amusing misdirection to the problem that the Bible itself is wrong.
5. “That is a miracle.” Naturally. That is why it is stated as fact.
6. “God works in mysterious ways.” A useful dodge when the speaker doesn’t understand the conflict between what the Bible SAYS and what they WISH it said.
To Shukri and other muslim, do not read pass this.
Like on the Bible in Malaysia, this is for non-muslim only.
1 Karena itu panggillah sesamamu dengan nama Umat Allah dan Dikasihani TUHAN
2 TUHAN berkata, Hai anak-anak-Ku, ibumu bukan istri-Ku lagi, dan Aku bukan suaminya. Sebab itu, perkarakanlah dia supaya ia jangan BERZINA dan jangan MELACUR lagi.
3 Jika ia tetap MELACUR, Aku akan menanggalkan pakaiannya supaya ia TELANJANG seperti pada hari ia dilahirkan. Akan Kujadikan dia seperti tanah kering dan gersang, maka ia akan mati kehausan.
4 Kamu, anak-anaknya, tidak akan Kukasihani; kamu lahir dari PELACURAN.
5 Ibumu PELACUR yang tidak tahu malu. Ia berkata, ‘Aku akan pergi kepada kekasih-kekasihku yang memberi aku makanan dan minuman, wol dan kain linen, minyak zaitun dan anggur.’
6 Sebab itu, Aku akan mengurung dia dengan belukar duri, dan menutup jalannya dengan pagar tembok.
7 Ia akan mengejar kekasih-kekasihnya, tapi tidak akan sampai kepada mereka. Ia akan mencari mereka, tapi tidak akan menemukan mereka. Lalu ia akan berkata, ‘Aku akan kembali kepada suamiku yang pertama; dulu keadaanku lebih baik daripada sekarang.’
8 Ibumu tidak pernah mengakui bahwa Akulah yang memberi dia gandum, anggur, minyak zaitun, dan segala emas perak yang dipakainya untuk menyembah Baal itu.
9 Karena itu, di musim panen Aku akan menarik kembali pemberian-Ku, yaitu gandum dan anggur, serta wol dan kain linen yang Kuberikan kepadanya untuk pakaiannya.
10 Akan KUTELANJANGI dia di depan semua kekasihnya. Tak seorang pun dari mereka dapat melepaskan dia dari kekuasaan-Ku.
11 Segala pestanya akan Kuhentikan, baik pesta tahunan maupun pesta bulanan dan hari-hari Sabat; singkatnya, segala perayaan keagamaannya.
http://bis.scripturetext.com/hosea/2.htm
Huhh! Desperate measures like these 2 above done by the infidel just only prove his bankruptcy of facts and an abysmally stunted and perverted mind.
Very much similar to his perverted founder of islam-Muhammad! Who gave himself undue privileges for more than the prescribed 4 wives, and then stealing away his son-in-law’s wife to marry, and was a avid practitioner of Pedophilea on the 6-9 year old girl Aisha..amongt many other unmentionable perverse things!
Like I said, this nut-case infidel could never find any such similarities in the life and words of Jesus Christ, and his posts never proved that Jesus did any such perversions. But only in infidel’s desperate and bankrupt perverted, wild fantasies.
Some Christians mistakenly think they no longer have to obey any of the laws and commandments set out by God the Father in the Old Testament since they are now operating under a new covenant with Jesus. But this view is wrong. Jesus Himself says that He did not come to do away with the law, but to FULFILL it. Here is the verse. This is Jesus talking:
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to FULFILL. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18)
Jesus APPROVED all those verses in the Old Testament!!!
This follows-up on the errors, inconsistencies and factual mistakes thats in the Quran. Not only is the Quran factually erroneous in many places, it is full of contradictions that even the so-called ‘scholars of islam’ cannot reconcile or resolve!
In the words of the Muslim Iranian Scholar Ali Dashti:
“The Qor’an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects. These and other such aberrations in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor’an’s eloquence. The problem also occupied the minds of devout Moslems. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings.”
(Ali Dashti, Twenty-Three Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, Allen and Unwin, London, 1985, pp. 48-49)
“To sum up, MORE THAN ONE HUNDRED QORANIC Aberrations (errors and mistakes)from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, the commentators strove to find explanations and justifications of these irregularities. Among them was the great commentator and philologist Mahmud oz-Zamakhshari (467/1075-538/1144), of whom a Moorish author wrote: ‘This grammar-obsessed pedant has committed a shocking error. Our task is not to make the readings conform to Arabic grammar, but to take the whole of the Qor’an as it is and make Arabic grammar conform to the Qor’an.’”
(Ibid., p. 50)
Not just Ali Dashti is correct in his assessment of the quran, even BEFORE his time, we have the admissions of Muslim scholars like Ibn Khaldun on the Quran’s many clear inconsistencies. So, Dashti is not the only islamic scholar alone in his honest and objective conclusions on the Quran’s inconsistencies!
The famous classical Muslim scholar, Ibn Khaldun confirms that the Quran had indeed been corrupted due to mistakes made by scribes :
“Arabic writing at the beginning of Islam was, therefore, not of the best quality nor of the greatest accuracy and excellence. It was not (even) of medium quality, because the Arabs possessed the savage desert attitude and were not familiar with crafts. One may compare what happened to the orthography of the Qur’an on account of this situation. The men around Muhammad wrote the Qur’an in their own script which was not of a firmly established, good quality. MOST OF THE LETTERS WERE IN CONTRADICTION TO THE ORTHOGRAPHY REQUIRED BY PERSONS VERSED IN THE CRAFT OF WRITING … Consequently, the Qur’anic orthography of the men around Muhammad was followed and became established, and the scholars acquainted with it have called attention to passages where (this is noticeable).
Ibn Khaldun cautions against taking the defensive statements of the fundamentalist detractors seriously when he says:
No attention should be paid in this connection with those incompetent (scholars) that (the men around Muhammad) knew well the art of writing and that the alleged discrepancies between their writing and the principles of orthography are not discrepancies, as has been alleged, but have a reason. For instance, they explain the addition of the alif in la ‘adhbahannahU ‘ I shall indeed slaughter him’ as indication that the slaughtering did not take place ( lA ‘adhbahannahU ). The addition of the ya in bi-ayydin ‘with hands (power),’ they explain as an indication that the divine power is perfect.
There are similar things based on nothing but purely arbitrary assumptions. The only reason that caused them to (assume such things) is their belief that (their explanations) would free the men around Muhammad from the suspicion of deficiency, in the sense that they were not able to write well. They think that good writing is perfection. Thus, they do not admit the fact that the men around Muhammad were deficient in writing.”
(The Muqaddima, Ibn Khaldun, vol. 2, p. 382)
The preceding citations clearly demonstrate that the scholars themselves are aware that the Quran contains hundreds, if not thousands, of erroneous and variant readings.
Muslim propogandists and fundamentalists like those posting flowing verses from the Bible – BUT with no accurate exegesis whatsoever, here will do really well to first go and study, and examine studiously the works of these muslim scholars above, before impassionedly trying to make more embarassing statements, that ultimately does not reflect positively on Islam! Think on that ‘infidel’ muslim..
Hamzah.